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HOMEBREW Digest #4911
HOMEBREW Digest #4911 Thu 15 December 2005
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Teff (cereal grain) (leavitdg)
Re:freezer not freezing (Nathaniel Lansing)
Re: Freezer not freezing (Paul Waters)
Freezer not freezing ("Spencer W. Thomas")
Re: High Gravity Beers (Dylan Tack)
RE: High Gravity Beers (Steven Parfitt)
Pam Day (Scott Kaczorowski)
Brew Pot as Fermenter (Stuart Lay)
Wort chillers: Shirron vs. Therminator? ("Mark Mierzejewski")
re: Clinitest ("steve.alexander")
more (was re: Clinitest) ("steve.alexander")
freezer not freezing ("eric")
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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 06:59:27 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Teff (cereal grain)
I just ran across an article in USA Today about Ethiopian Teff, a cereal grain
that is being grown by Kansas farmers. The article says that it is low in
glutens. Has anyone used this for brewing?
Darrell
Plattsburgh,NY 44 41 58 N Latitude
73 27 12 W Longitude
[544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:55:59 -0500
From: Nathaniel Lansing <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:freezer not freezing
le man asks:
>>Just
>>checked the freezer temperature and it 4.9C. How can this happen? The
>>freezer is working as I've turned it down and the walls where the coils
>>are get cold, turn it back to Zero and leave it and the temperature
>>stabilises around 5C.
Two distinct possibilities; 1)The indicator on the external thermostat
is whack and is 5 degrees off. Observe the true temperature with
a thermometer inside the freezer, not the numbers on the dial.
2) The thermostat has a rather large hysteresis; zone that no action
is taken, it must fall lower than x degrees to turn off, must rise to x+y
to turn
on. If the environment doesn't allow the inside to rise y degrees, it
doesn't
turn on. Maybe yours needs to rise to 5.5 degrees to turn on.
Some thermostats have a variable hysteresis, make it minimum.
Otherwise, remedy is the same as number 1) observe the actual
internal temperature with a thermometer, adjust accordingly.
be lucky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 06:38:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Waters <pwaters3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Freezer not freezing
Le man Wrote
>I have a chest freezer with a converted thermostat
that allows me >to set
>a temperature between +35 and -35C. Temperature has
been set to >zero C
>for a period of lagering. . . However we have had a
cold spell >here
>and
>the ambient temperature where the freezer is located
is around 4C. >Just
>checked the freezer temperature and it 4.9C. How can
this happen? >The
>freezer is working as I've turned it down and the
walls where the >coils
>are get cold, turn it back to Zero and leave it and
the temperature
>stabilises around 5C.
My 2 cents on the subject, I think it just the
sensitivty of the extrenal temp. controller. My guess
is that you have an analog controler you compensate
you may need to turn down a touch.
The other problem maybe is that you need a freon
charge I had that problem with mine and now its as
good as new it will go down to keep meat for long term
storage
Paul W
Mad Cow Brewing
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:32:48 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Freezer not freezing
My 2c: The freezer is "refusing" to work because there is too small a
temperature differential between the outside temperature and the desired
temperature. I'm hoping one of the HBD fridge experts will chime in
here. (Forrest, where are you!?)
=Spencer in Ann Arbor
close enough to 0,0 it's pointless to calculate it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:58:31 -0600
From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: High Gravity Beers
> From: stewart.pounds at gm.com
>
> started telling of brewery's that have been brewing beers in mid 20%
> alcohol range. I then asked how this was possible
WLP099 Super High Gravity Yeast is reported to tolerate 25%, with
proper feeding.
http://www.whitelabs.com/gravity.html
Sam Adams Utopias falls in this range.
-Dylan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:55:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: High Gravity Beers
Stewart Ponders high gravity beer...
...snip...
During the discussion Rex started telling of brewery's
that have been brewing beers in mid 20% alcohol range.
I then asked how this was possible since I was always
told that even Champaign
yeast was only alcohol tolerant to about 15%.
...snip...
There is a process called incremental feeding that
allows normal yeast to be pushed to making very high
gravity beer without selective genetic breeding.
World Wide Stout is currently listed at 18% and if
memory serves it has been as high as 21% in the past.
I don'tthink they even used incremental feeding.
They have all been dumbed down though.
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:42:30 -0800
From: Scott Kaczorowski <sk at xb-70.com>
Subject: Pam Day
Looking for Pam Day/Oakman.
And, yes, I realize this isn't a personals forum...
Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:01:46 -0600
From: Stuart Lay <zzlay at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brew Pot as Fermenter
A question for the crowd: Does anyone use a brew pot as their primary
fermenter? What would be the disadvantages compared to traditional
fermenters?
I want to convert my current brew-fridge into a draft dispenser, and
using a boil pot would allow me to use a small chest freezer (vice a
large upright model) to control fermentation temps.
Thanks,
stuart
Royal, AR
Apparent Rennerian
741.2,226.9
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:45:18 GMT
From: "Mark Mierzejewski" <markmier at netzero.com>
Subject: Wort chillers: Shirron vs. Therminator?
I'm interested in getting a new wort chiller, I'm looking at the brazed
plate chillers that have recently become available. Specifically, the
Shirron and the Therminator. They appear to be fairly similar (but
of course different). The shirron is longer and thinner, as well as
less than half the price of the therminator (which everybody seems to
think is awesome). The Shirron probably has about the same surface
area, though less efficiently-arranged than the Therminator.
So... how do the two different heat exchangers differ in their
practical aspects? Cleanability, quickness of chilling with
cold tap water, gravity feed ability?
Does anyone have experience with both of these plate chillers that
can offer an opinion?
Mark Mierzejewski
Kirkland, WA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:26:18 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Clinitest
Re Clinitest ...
Dave Burley states ...
>Your eye is able to distinguish thousands of shades so it is very
>accurate at estimating the amount of sugar in the sample
The FDA states that Clinitest is NON-QUANTITATIVE, meaning the
limited stability and *accuracy* of Clinitest only affords a
"detection vs no-detection" determination.
The eye can distinguish millions (not thousands) of colors, but this
is not a limiting factor in Clinitest *resolution* and has nothing to
do with *accuracy*. In fact a single Clinitest vial displays numerous
color shades within a flurry of particulate and then rapidly settles
into a supernatant and sediment of different colors. This explains
why there is a 15 second 'eval window' before sedimentation. The
colors, even in control glucose solutions, never precisely match the
(6 or 7) color comparison panels. Perhaps because of color components
outside the printed panels and differences in luminance it seems
difficult to accurately match the Clinitest vial to any one of the
panels much less interpolate between. This problem is compounded by
beer pigmentation.
IMO Clinitest has about "3 bits" (~8 distinguishable states) of useful
resolution and very dubious accuracy.
Accuracy: DaveB (above) states, "accurate at estimating the amount of
sugar", but Clinitest doesn't measure the amount of sugar at all.
Clinitest literally detects the concentration of reducing substances
that are capable of reducing copperII sulfate to cuprous oxide -
that's it ! Some non-fermentables are detected by Clinitest, while
some fermentables are not. Clinitest generally detects aldehydes and
a few ketones, and some other reducing substances.
Clinitest is calibrated to measure glucose in urine. There is no
accepted relationship between the "measure" of other reducing sugars
in non-urine media, and the relationship is well known to be
non-linear wrt the type of "sugar". 1P of glucose sol'n and 1P of
maltotriose(M3) sol'n have the same amount of sugar and almost the
same concentration of fermentables, but the glucose sol'n will read 1%
by Clinitest and the M3 sol'n reads only 0.25% (see Andy Walsh test in
HBD circa 1999).
Even in "sugars only" solutions there is no invertible relationship
between the amount of sugars and Clinitest readings, so the reading
can never tell you the amount of sugar.
Let's examine some specifics of wort/beer and some adjuncts ....
>Clinitest is not responsive to Lactose commonly used in making Milk
>Stout,
This is false. Clinitest *does* measure non-fermentable lactose. The
original manufacturer, Miles Labs states Clinitest detects sugars
which include a free aldehyde group in their linear form "and include
glucose, galactose, fructose and LACTOSE (but not sucrose)". Lactose
in urine of lactating women is a known source of Clinitest error.
Clinitest certainly *detects* the major wort fermentables, glucose,
maltose and maltotriose, and there is every expectation that Clinitest
also detects all sorts of non-fermentable wort dextrins. The
Clinitest reading is NOT proportional to the amounts of these sugars
as already noted but roughly to their sum molar concentration - which
is useless in evaluating fermentation progress. Clinitest detects
iso-maltose, a non-fermentable which appears in all-malt wort in
considerable quantity. Clinitest will detect pentose sugars as well.
Clinitest ignores sucrose, however this is the only common adjunct
sugar likely to give a "false negative".
Of great concern we know that Clinitest detects a wide range of
aldehydes and not merely sugars. Clinitest can detect ascorbic acid
which is present in fresh wort and may appear in yeast nutrients.
Clinitest will detect glyceraldehyde, which is a precursor to glycerol
that can appear at several thousand ppm (perhaps ~0.4% Clinitest worst
possible case). Most alarming is acetaldehyde ! Every ethanol
molecule in beer was once acetaldehyde (say 50,000 ppm) and I see no
reason to think that Clinitest won't detect acetaldehyde.
In addition to aldehydes Clinitest will detect *some* ketones and also
other reducing substances. Fructose, in it's linear form is a ketone
(keto sugar) yet is is detectable by Clinitest. Anything capable of
reducing copperII sulfate ions to copper oxide in a high pH
environment should be detectable w/ Clinitest. One must wonder about
the impact of phenolics and other wort anti-oxidants on Clinitest
readings.
>and best of all you are not imputing anything
Just the opposite - you are imputing something about wort fermentables
from a non-linear measure of a subset of fermentables plus
non-fermentables. If a hydrometer reading is "line of sight" indirect
measure of fermentation, then Clinitest is "over the river, through
the woods, up the witches chimney, and a few orbits on Santa's sleigh"
type indirect when applied to wort/beer. I defy anyone to accurately
measure OG from unfermented wort with Clinitest. The Clinitest
%reading will probably not reach even 1/2 of the correct Plato value and
no one can construct a conversion method of any accuracy. Note that
this is a very simple case where fermentation aldehydes are absent, yet
even then Clinitest fails.
>[undiluted clinitest samples] This
>will double your ability to read these lower values.
The higher resolution "5 drop method" uses a 3X dilution rate. So
it's TRIPLE the absolute resolution, not "double".
>[...] the hydrometer can not even come close to this accuracy.
That's wrong on several counts. Clinitest doesn't *accurately* measure
a mixture of fermentables at all. What Dave seems to mean instead is
that Clinitest has superior *resolution* to a hydrometer, and even
that is wrong for wort/beer.
When measuring an undiluted glucose solution Clinitest has a
resolution of triple 1/4% = 1/12th% ~= 0.083 Plato. Unfortunately the
only case where Clinitest has such resolution is with a no-dilution
reading below 1%. This means near 'end of fermentation' and this
normally means that maltotriose(M3) is the primary fermentable. Andy
Walsh demonstrated that M3 has only about 1/4th the measure on
Clinitest as glucose, so a change of Clinitest reading of 1/12th% as
glucose means a change of perhaps 0.33P as M3. Also note that
Clinitest should measure the loss of real M3 fermentables while the
hydrometer has about a 25% advantage in resolution since it measures
the *apparent* fermentation. IOW the fermentation of 0.33P of
sugars causes about a 0.41P(1.6SG degree) drop in the hydrometer
reading. You can get better resolution & accuracy from a cheap
hydrometer at 1SG degree than from this "best case" Clinitest measure
in wort {wine is a different case}.
If my goal was to give up the ~6 or 7 bit resolution of a hydrometer
for the ~ 3 bit resolution of Clinitest, and also to give of the
comparable (~1apparent SG degree) accuracy of the density measure
for some uncharacterized measure of a mix of reducing chemicals
tenuously related to fermentation progress and then Clinitest would be
a "marvel". As it stands it's just a marvelously crude test. This
probably explains why the current manufacturer, Bayer, is not even
citing the product on their website.
I would agree that a lab using quantitative Benedict reagent
and modern colorimetic measure could probably match the 1-2% type
resolution of a hydrometer, perhaps even better, but then the result is
still just as tenuously related to fermentables as before, and the
convenience and timeliness is completely lost.
- --more
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:55:02 -0500
From: "steve.alexander" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: more (was re: Clinitest)
(continued ...)
]If my goal was to give up the ~6 or 7 bit resolution of a hydrometer
My actual goal is the opposite - I'm looking for better resolution
and accuracy of a quantity directly relatable to fermentation
progress with reasonable convenience. Let me flog the nearly
dead horse one more time:
Fermentation: (for glucose)
1 mole glucose -> 2 mole EtOH + 2 mole CO2 + (-118.4kJ)
... and so on for other sugars ...
This immediately explicates the possible *direct* measures of
fermentation.
1/ We could measure the sugar uptake. The are difficulties since
there are other destination for sugar besides fermentation. I've read
that figures as high as 12% of consumed wort sugars can end up as yeast
structure and other non-ethanol&CO2 carbon sinks. I've also read that
about 3% of consumed sugar carbons appear normally as yeast mannose cell
walls. In any case sugar uptake is not a direct proxy for fermentation
progress and estimates (like Balling's famous formula) must be used.
2/ We could measure ethanol, and this would indeed be a direct measure
of fermentation progress. I'm not aware of any chemical assay for ethanol
in a mixed media that would give, 2 decimal places of accuracy and
still be convenient for HB use. There *may* be some way to measure
ethanol indirectly but specifically, but I'm at a loss there too.
3/ Measuring CO2 is a direct measure of fermentation. Ken has the
beginnings of a great system in his CO2 flow meter. Simple gas flow
meters are quite insensitive to the gas temp/volume relationship which
is great, but have a hydrometer-like 2% (or even 5%) low-end accuracy.
Still I think it's the beginning of a great system. One confounding
factor is that all head gas (not just CO2) is expelled past the meter.
Another than some CO2 stays in solution - this is a manageable issue.
I've been playing with ultrasonic transducer degassing and CO2
measurement is possible. Another CO2 method would be to the fermenter
mass ! The fermenter of course becomes lighter as CO2 is removed and
the amount is non-trivial. 20L of 12P wort will lose something like
0.8kg or 1.75lbs of CO2. Still a scale that measures ~25kg to within
8gm is pricey.
4/ Energy - we expect that the energy produced from fermentation
represents substantially all of the energy produced and that most
is released as "heat of fermentation". Still there are confounding
factors here. Yeast retain some of this chemical energy and use
some you build lipids & others. Yeast also release a bit of energy
from non-fermentation processes too. I suspect this is a better
parameter to measure than sugar uptake, but it would require some
estimations to relate this to fermentation progress.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:59:33 -0700
From: "eric" <zeee1 at nebonet.com>
Subject: freezer not freezing
Hello
A refrigerator/freezer is designed to remove heat from inside the fridge,
and get rid of it outside, usually coils on the back. If it is colder
outside the fridge than inside, it wants to become a heater, but it wont
work that way.
Here is one link where you can check out the refrigeration cycle
http://home.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator.htm
Eric
Deweyville, UT
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4911, 12/15/05
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