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HOMEBREW Digest #4916
HOMEBREW Digest #4916 Wed 21 December 2005
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Subject: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion? (Wayne Faris)
A bit more on pressure gauges. ("Mike Sharp")
Lagering Duvel Clone ("David Craft")
Volume Questions ("H. Dowda")
Vapor Pressure ("A.J deLange")
Throwing away the sight glass ("A.J deLange")
Duvel clone w/o lagering (ALAN K MEEKER)
Ian's stuck fermentation ("Peed, John")
Sight glasses ("Alex Sheftel")
Re: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion? (Dylan Tack)
Re: Lagering Duvel Clone ("Tomusiak, Mark")
RE: Throw away the sight glass ("Ronald La Borde")
RE: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion? ("Dave and Joan King")
Argh! Can I mention CO2 flow again? ("Ken Anderson")
Fw: Teff ("Sean Richens")
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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:17:12 -0600
From: Wayne Faris <ke0bz at charter.net>
Subject: Subject: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion?
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:51:43 -0500
>From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com>
>Subject: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion?
>
>Hi All
>
>I haven't posted in a long time, but I recently was hired as the assistant
>brewer at a new craft brewery in my city and I have an opinion I would like
>confirmed or countered by the membership. The owner and I brewed a batch on
>the 9th of December and for the last 4 days the sg has been 1.018. In the
>past the beer SHOULD have been, by this time, in the 1.010 to 1.008 range.
>The boss's opinion is that the yeast is to blame, since we harvest and
>re-pitch the yeast from previous batches. I think the reason is incomplete
>conversion: On brewing day, after a mere 35 minutes of mashing, we mashed
>out, after I though I saw some signs in the iodine test of incomplete
>conversion. So I say that the reason the sg is at 1.018 is that there are
>still starches in the beer keeping the sg at that level. What do you all
>think? Thank you either way you vote :)
>
>Ian
>
Incomplete conversion is a possibility. I would not trust the iodine
test however. If the wort is not completely clear, husk material will
still give you a false reading.. To me it sounds like a problem with
mash temperature. Being a new system, you may not have had the temps
dialed in quite right yet and mashed 4 or 5 degrees higher than you
should have. Incomplete conversion would have shown up immediately as a
low OG.
You don't really give enough information for a diagnosis. It does sound
like you guys need to take careful notes on each brew so you can readily
see any differences from batch to batch. Only from that can you make
the needed corrections.
Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:28:15 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: A bit more on pressure gauges.
MARTIN AMMON said:
"I was thinking (and that's when I get into trouble), if there was a way of
measuring the pressure in a stainless steel tube (sealed on one end) the air
pressure would vary as the water or wort level rise's or falls. Taking this
measurement and converting it into volume of liquid in the tank. That's
about as far as I can go with it. Just a plain Old Country boy any
thoughts out there."
And I replied:
"Well, the pressure will be only due to the height of the water in the
vessel, so you don't need to bother with the sealed tube--just measure the
tank at the bottom. And the pressure will be measured in inches of
water--about 0-24 inches if you're using a half barrel keg."
When I said that, I had a sneaking suspicion I was forgetting something
fundamental...then tonight it hit me. So I better issue a retraction before
AJ calls me on it. The pressure in the tube will only be equal to the
difference in height of the water in the tube, and the height of the water
in the tank. So the actual pressure will be less than the pressure at the
bottom of the tank.
In any case, what you really want to use is a low pressure gauge like a
Dwyer Magnehelic. I've used these for orbital tig welding, when you want to
flood the back side of a stainless tube with argon at a low but measurable
pressure. The pressure has to be very low, or it blows out the weld while
you're doing it, which is a bummer. Dwyer makes them in all sorts of
ranges. If your HLT is a keg, you'll want one that measures 0-24 inches
water column. Here's one on Ebay for about $15 that's 0-20 inches w.c.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DWYER-GAUGE-0-20-W-4-F-1-8-BM-MAGNAHELIC_W0QQitemZ757204
4239QQcategoryZ11809QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Actually, when you think about it, it's probably cheaper than a sight glass.
I've seen some of them on eBay for around $7.00. You'd have to use it with
a bubbler, but then you probably have CO2 bubbling away from a fermenter,
right? Kidding aside, all you need is an aquarium pump, with a little valve
to get the bubble rate nice and low.
Magnehelic gauges are amazingly accurate, actually.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:25:29 -0500
From: "David Craft" <Chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Lagering Duvel Clone
Brian,
I am not sure what your schedule is for this beer. You can always adjust
your schedule for aging this beer and lager the beer in the bottle!
This is not as desirable as bulk lagering, but I think most of the desired
effect will be obtained.
David Craft
Greensboro, NC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 05:19:09 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: Volume Questions
1. What would the volume of 5 gallons of a 1.050 wort
at
ambient when that wort is heated to boiling? Assume
no evaporation. How would that volume change, if at
all, in relation to changes in gravity?
2. What is the volume of,say 1 ounce, of leaf hops
after boiling to 'saturation'?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:23:15 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Vapor Pressure
The vapor pressure of water is dependent only on temperature so relative
humidity would not have an effect on it nor would altitude. Now what
altitude/barometric would do is change the partial pressure of CO2
because as the sum of the partial pressures (barometer reading) is equal
to the partial pressure of water vapor plus the partial pressure of CO2
the partial pressure of CO2 either increases or decreases as the
barometer changes. Thus at lower pressure (higher altitude) the
percentage of water vapor in the head gas would increase. If water's
vapor pressure were large (it's only about 17 mBar at 15 C) or if its
specific heat were appreciably different from that of CO2 (33.6 vs 37.1
J/mol-K) this might cause an appreciable error but I think we're chasing
will o' the wisps here.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:35:52 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Throwing away the sight glass
When putting my brewery together last spring I had to build a stand to
support the "kettle". This was easily done using perforated angle from
the Home Depot but I needed something to serve as "feet" on this thing.
The Muse inspired me to use load cells and that has got to have been one
of the most useful inspirations I ever got. I know how much water I'm
adding, get a check on the weight of the grain, can monitor the water
lost during the boil, the amount of makeup water added back in and best
of all get the total extract produced simply by multiplying the Plato
hydrometer reading by the weight and dividing by 100 (which I can still
do in my head). So for those thinking of esoteric replacements for the
sight glass I'd suggest seeing if you can come up with a set of load cells.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:47:47 -0500
From: ALAN K MEEKER <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Duvel clone w/o lagering
Brian Schar asks about the possibiltiy of getting
a good Duvel clone w/o lagering.
Brian, I have had good results in brewing Duvel
clones and have never lagered them. They do,
however, benefit greatly from extended aging.
Shoot me an e-mail for details...
Alan Meeker
Lazy Eight Nanobrewery
"Where the possibilities are limitless"
ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 08:16:00 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Ian's stuck fermentation
Ian, I think incomplete conversion, if the mash was done at the same
temperature as previous batches, would be indicated by low starting
gravity. If you mashed at a higher than normal temperature you might
get the correct original gravity but less fermentable wort. I think if
it was the yeast, you would probably notice off flavors. Was the
fermentation temp normal?
Re water chemistry reports, the local utilities have become absolutely
uncooperative. Oak Ridge, TN sends out this damned useless glossy P.R.
sheet every year telling us what fabulous water we have and what a great
job they're doing, but it contains precious little useful information.
Oak Ridge, having made fissionable material for the original atomic
bombs, admittedly has some P.R. challenges. But none of the local area
authorities that I know of will release any information about water
salts any more (they used to regard such requests very suspiciously, but
now they simply say that they don't release that information). It's
like it's classified information or something, something that terrorists
could use against us. Pretty weird. So don't be surprised if your
local authority refuses to give you information.
Nice quote, Darryl! And good point, Allen. It is probably I who should
move to the Forum! Carry on, all.
John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:36:39 -0500
From: "Alex Sheftel" <asheft at po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Sight glasses
Another elegant and simple replacement for a sight glass is a
self-calibrated brewing spoon or long stick. I'll bet it's just as accurate
as a sight glass. And it can double as a spoon for whirlpooling or
whatever.
Cheers,
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:23:25 -0600
From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion?
> From: "Ian Watson" <realtor at niagara.com>
>
> after a mere 35 minutes of mashing, we mashed out, after
> I though I saw some signs in the iodine test of incomplete
> conversion. So I say that the reason the sg is at 1.018 is that
> there are still starches in the beer keeping the sg at that level.
OK, I will take a stab at this, though take this with a grain of salt.
Someone please correct me if I'm off the mark here.
Your high FG can be explained by the short mash (although it would be
useful to know what the temperature was), though this doesn't rule out
a yeast problem.
I am going to guess that you produced a very dextrinous (unfermentable)
wort, though the starch conversion may be complete. According to Steve
A. "Normal pale malt will achieve complete conversion in 5 to 10
minutes at 70C(158F), meaning the wort is starch free."
see http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/4750.html#4750-10
(Sorry I don't have a better referance for this)
By cutting the mash short, you favor the alpha amylase, which has
quickly chopped up your starches into alpha amylase limit dextrins.
Without adaquate time for the limited amount of beta amylase to further
degrade these into maltose, you are stuck with a high F.G. The
mash-out may have released some additional starch, would could have
been unconverted, or made into more limit dextrins.
-Dylan
Iowa City, IA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:25:55 -0800
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Re: Lagering Duvel Clone
Greetings...Brian Schar asks about the need for lagering in making a duvel
clone. I made such a beer last year, using WLP570 (Belgian Golden Ale) and
closely following the reported Duvel brewing methods (started with a lower
gravity wort, fed sugars during fermentation, etc.), including lagering at
close to 32 F for an extended period of time. The resulting beer was
outstanding, with a flavor and appearance profile very close to the
original. One characteristic of the fermentation was that the beer took an
extremely long time to "drop bright" or clear, even well into the secondary
fermentation; my guess is that the lagering period facilitating the eventual
clearing of the beer. You could probably make a very good beer without the
lagering phase, but you might have a cloudy beer unless you employed
filtration. I think this slow clearing behavior is a property of the yeast
strain, and I have heard similar things about the equivalent Wyeast strain
(1388). Cheers,
Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:07:31 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Throw away the sight glass
From: "MARTIN AMMON" <SURFSUPKS at KC.RR.COM>
****I was thinking (and that's when I get into trouble), if there
was a way of measuring the pressure in a stainless steel tube (sealed on one
end) the air pressure would vary as the water or wort level rise's or falls.
Taking this measurement and converting it into volume of liquid in the tank.
That's about as far as I can go with it. Just a plain Old Country boy any
thoughts out there.***
Washing machines use a water level device to stop filling when the tub water
level reaches the setpoint. The way it works is there's a piece of tubing at
the bottom of the tub (probably under the tub, or at the water pump). The
air pressure from the rising water actuates a diaphragm/microswitch at the
other end of the tubing. It is behind the water level knob on the front
panel.
I am suggesting this because it can take hot water, and can be set for
several levels. It does not read out on a display, but simply actuates the
microswitch. Perhaps one could use a solid state sensor with some circuitry
to provide a readout instead of the microswitch.
If you come to New Orleans or Metairie, you can get lots of these for free!
Ron
Ronald La Borde - Metairie Louisiana
New Orleans is the New Atlantis
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:13:20 -0500
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Stuck fermentation vs. incomplete conversion?
Ian posted:
I haven't posted in a long time, but I recently was hired as the assistant
brewer at a new craft brewery in my city and I have an opinion I would like
confirmed or countered by the membership. The owner and I brewed a batch on
the 9th of December and for the last 4 days the sg has been 1.018. In the
past the beer SHOULD have been, by this time, in the 1.010 to 1.008 range.
The boss's opinion is that the yeast is to blame, since we harvest and
re-pitch the yeast from previous batches. I think the reason is incomplete
conversion: On brewing day, after a mere 35 minutes of mashing, we mashed
out, after I though I saw some signs in the iodine test of incomplete
conversion. So I say that the reason the sg is at 1.018 is that there are
still starches in the beer keeping the sg at that level. What do you all
think? Thank you either way you vote :)
- --------------------------------------------------------------
You didn't mention the initial gravity (IG). If you hit your normal IG with
the usual grain bill, you must have gotten good extraction. Carbohydrates
are not very soluble, only sugars, so I wouldn't expect much carbohydrate
content. That is a very short mash time, IMHO. You should have been low on
IG, and therefore low on final gravity. Did you mash at the normal
temperature? Lower makes for better fermentability. I'd try some yeast
nutrient, the equivalent of about 1 to 2 tsp per gallon, since there's a
good change the yeast are not too healthy, and could use some "vitamins".
Dave King, BIER, [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian (Endicott, NY)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:24:26 -0500
From: "Ken Anderson" <kapna at adelphia.net>
Subject: Argh! Can I mention CO2 flow again?
I tried to learn a bit about HTML, and have put up a basic web page with
some information about how I've been monitoring CO2 flow rate with a
mass flow meter. I'm sure the site will change, but I wanted to put it
up, warts (yes, that's warts) and all.
Let me add here that this type of monitoring is not meant to make
brewing more technical. It doesn't have to do that at all. It CAN be
something that aids the brewer, and adds to the enjoyment of the hobby.
So, don't whup on me too bad!
http://users.adelphia.net/~aken75/
Ken Anderson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:05:38 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at mts.net>
Subject: Fw: Teff
Oops, forgot to cross-mail this to hbd for others to read.
> Darrell,
>
> What can I tell you? Traditionally, teff gets gelatinized by being made
> into some kind of flatbread. The first choice for brewing is a crisp
> bread
> made from finger millet, second choice is to use teff. It's pretty
> miserable to make, I ended up adding oil to keep it off even a non-stick
> pan. The expats around here tend to make or buy injera, which is a teff
> sourdough pancake. They dry it and shred it up before adding it to the
> barley malt/date/herbs starter.
>
> Recipe: Add teff to water, cover, and leave in a warm place a day and a
> half, then add a bit of wheat flour to make it easier to handle and thin
> out
> to make a batter. Comes out like a buckwheat pancake, and is used, the
> joke
> goes, as plate, tablecloth, napkin and utensils combined.
>
> Teff's pretty dry, lots of bran in the whole grain, but doesn't seem as
> oily
> as you would expect in a whole grain, not that I can be sure. I am
> certain
> that it will need some kind of gelatinization.
>
> Which brings up a subject - you have seen the grain, haven't you? It's
> not
> going to notice being passed through a malt mill. I hear cooking the
> whole
> grain will give you a porridge, so you might toss it straight in a cereal
> mash. Otherwise, disperse the flour in cold water, make it part of your
> strike water, but also throw in a couple handfuls of crushed malt to get
> things started as you bring the water to temperature.
>
> I couldn't really think of what style I would try it in, like you I tend
> to
> try pale ale first because such a wide range of flavours seem appropriate
> in
> it. I couldn't tell you what the flavour would be like in beer, the foods
> tend to be dominated by the mouthfeel of the bran and the flavour of the
> sourdough.
>
> Read the chapter on teff in
> http://books.nap.edu/books/0309049903/html/index.html and while you're at
> it, read the whole e-book. I first found it in hard copy in my local
> library, look for it. I've been chasing after finger millet, it's
> available
> as a malt flour from southern India as "ragi". Next-highest amylase
> content
> after barley, and suitable for celiacs! I tried also to buy sorghum beer
> kits from South Africa, no luck yet. I plan to test malt some sorghum and
> some millet to see if they have much conversion value.
>
> I say give it a try, and contribute a data point to the brewing world!
>
> Best of the Brewing and Holiday Seasons to you!
> Sean
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4916, 12/21/05
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