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HOMEBREW Digest #4889
HOMEBREW Digest #4889 Tue 15 November 2005
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: More on false bottoms ("Mike Sharp")
Theminator ("Murray Aldridge")
Re: Elderflower "Champagne" (Bob Tower)
Re: Elderflower Champagne Brewing Advice (Bob Tower)
re: Pressure limit of glass jug (John Schnupp)
Re: Pressure limit of glass jug (Bob Tower)
RE: slotted false bottoms (Nate & Brenda Wahl)
TIG Welding Kegs / Back-Purging ("Martin Ammon")
Re: Elderflower "Champagne" ("Dave Burley") (Eric Wescott)
Pressurized Glass (Rick) Theiner <rickdude@tds.net>
ester result (Matt)
Need advice -- All-grain system ("markmier@netzero.com")
RE: Bad year for hops ("Dennis O'Brien")
5.2 by Five Star (Erik & Marina Nelson)
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Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:12:38 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: More on false bottoms
Michael asks:
"What is v-wire?"
It's a wire whose cross section is roughly a V shape. You make false bottoms
out of it by tig welding straight runs spaced slightly apart onto transverse
rods. Slotted tube is made by welding a spiral run on longitudinal
supports. It's tricky to get it right, and you need to use shims to
maintain the correct spacing. A local fellow who makes brewing equipment
makes his own, but there are companies that specialize in it.
http://www.johnsonfiltrationindia.com/product.htm
Also, Hendrick Screen in Kentucky. It's hard to source (and expensive), and
hard to fabricate. That's why I use perforated stainless. I measured mine
tonight: 1/8 D holes, on 3/16 centers, staggered layout. This is 40% open
area. Yeah, the "standard" size is 3/32 on 5/32 centers which corresponds
to 33% open area, but I have a plastic false bottom with those specs, and it
clogs badly. A *real* pain to clean. Of course, the plastic version might
not have as clean a hole as a metal version. In any case, I've been using a
larger screen with good results. Easy to clean, and when pumping, you
hardly know it's there.
"I would ideally like to have a false bottom that is above the output valve
on a modified keg." <snip> "A concern I have with this is that too much mash
liquid being below the false bottom where there is no grain"
I agree with that; it's better to minimize the deadspace below the false
bottom. Putting it above the outlet valve makes it pretty high, assuming
the valve goes out the side of the keg. My current mash tun has a brass NPT
to compression elbow threaded into the center of the false bottom. A copper
tube goes from there to the compression fitting outlet on the wall of the
kettle. I used teflon compression ferrules, so it could be taken apart.
When this is assembled, even finger tight, it's quite solid, and very low
profile. I don't think you want to stir that close to the bottom anyway.
I've seen a tangential outlet line that was in the very bottom of the keg,
and came out through the skirt. That looked ideal to me. I'm building a
larger mash tun from a keg myself, and have been planning on putting the
outlet at the very bottom of the keg, either tangentially through the skirt,
or else running straight down through the center of the burner (with a heat
shield). See the S-10 or Z-10 burner:
http://www.solarflo.com/impinged.htm
MoreBeer.com sells the S-80, but I don't want the center jet. The problem
with running straight down is that even though these burners are very
compact (flame height of 2-3", burner is about 3" high) it puts the valves
about 6-10" below the bottom of the mash tun. Also, you'd need either a
sanitary ferrule and clamp down there somewhere, or else a compression
fitting, so that the keg can be removed for dumping. So, I'll probably
either stick with the same system I have (internal elbow and tubing) or use
the tangential outlet, possibly removing one pair of jets from the burner.
I'm cutting my keg off at the shoulder, so hinging the bottom isn't an issue
(the mash tun opening is full-width this way).
In summary, stick with perforated stainless or one of those pre-made
stainless false bottoms, but keep it close to the bottom of the tun. I
don't see much wrong with a screen below the valve, using a tube that goes
to the outlet valve. It would be worse to have 3 inches of dead space below
the screen.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:54:04 +1100
From: "Murray Aldridge" <aldridge at fjc.net.au>
Subject: Theminator
Re: Tony Wilkinson
My theminator works fine with the boiler on the bench and the Therminater
and carboy on the floor. It doesnt seem to slow the siphoning process at
all.
Keeping material out of a closed system chiller is important as if any
remains it is a clear focal point for infection.
The Therminatoer does not come apart. You clean by flushing and back
flushing. I use cold water then water as hot as possible. I then sterilise
with iodophor. This is done before and after use.
The manufacturer recommends that after, I think, 8 or so brews you flush
with phosphoric acid to remove what is technically know as "crud".
The cold break can easily be removed by collected the chilled wort then
racking it to a fermentor after it has settled leaving it, or most of it
behind.
Murray Aldridge
Sydney Australia
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:17:01 -0800
From: Bob Tower <tower at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: Elderflower "Champagne"
Dave Burley warns of the dangers of bottle conditioning sweet beverages:
-snip-
Daniel is trying something very dangerous. Fermenting sweetened
Elderflower
wine in a bottle. I know some contend you can make rootbeer by just
adding
some yeast to a sweetened extract of same and safely get rootbeer for
the
kiddies. Don't believe it. I know some do it, but I don't believe it
is a
safe practice. Perhaps using plastic bottles is better, but not much
IMHO.
-snip-
While I agree with Dave to error on the side of caution when it comes
to such matters, it is doable. Plastic PET bottles can withstand
tremendous pressure (100+ PSI I am told but cannot confirm this as
fact). Commercial soda pops are typically carbonated to 40-50 PSI, so
there's plenty of safety zone when it comes to pressure. I have on
numerous occasions bottled rootbeer carbonated with ale yeast in PET
bottles. I was once told by a brewer that yeast shut down under
pressure, 60 PSI if I remember correctly. Thus the pressure possible
in a bottle is self limiting. In my experiences with this technique,
never have the bottles or caps failed under the pressure (I've
probably done about 100 bottles this way over the years) nor have the
bottles or caps become distorted, indicating that they were reaching
or had passed their maximum pressure capacity. As a test, I even
stored several bottles for months at a time (in a sealed five gallon
bucket in case any of the bottles failed) at temperatures of 70 F. or
higher. Yes, the bottles were very carbonated (along the lines of
champagne) when opened but they did not gush or indicate wildly or
dangerously high pressures. I don't recommend storing the rootbeer
for long periods of time however, as the yeast becomes more and more
prominent in the flavor. It is best drunk quickly.
Refrigeration is another thing that can be used to stop or at least
slow down possible renewed fermentations (once adequate carbonation
is achieved). However, I have noticed that certain types of yeast
will eventually adapt and begin fermenting again, albeit slowly. Not
knowing much about elderflower wine, does it require extensive aging
or is best consumed young? If long term aging is required, then I
could see that it could present problems, especially if bottled in
glass champagne bottles. Pasteurization (via a hot water bath) could
be used, but would entail much more labor and the heat may have a
negative impact on the flavor of the wine.
When I first started homebrewing, I had a few batches where I ran out
of bottles on bottling day. In a pinch I used some plastic water
bottles. It hadn't occurred to me that these were not the same type
of bottle as a soda bottle, although it was the same material (PET).
The water bottles are much thinner since they are not intended to
hold pressure. In every instance, there was failure, but it was not
the bottles that failed, it was the caps. But the failure was not
catastrophic. In the tops of the caps a hairline fracture would occur
as the cap bulged out and then beer would slowly foam and leak out of
the crack. As comparatively thin as the bottles were, they held up to
the pressure. Granted, the pressure they were holding was likely
10-20 PSI, nowhere near champagne pressure levels. But my point is
that even these thin water bottles held up. If a true soda type
bottle is used, it would take an unnaturally (and unlikely
obtainable) high pressure for them to fail in a dangerous way
(plastic shrapnel). And even when I've had plastic bottles fail,
their failure was fairly benign.
My advice to Daniel would be to try one soda bottle of elderflower
wine in a strongly sealed container (like a fermenting bucket with
something heavy set on top of the lid) in an out of the way place
where no one will be harmed if the worst happens. Watch it for
several months (or the longest conceivable time the wine will be
stored) and see if the bottle fails. My guess is that it won't fail.
Otherwise, if you don't want to risk it, then bottle the wine in
plastic bottles, wait a few days or until you get the carbonation
level you desire, then refrigerate the bottles and begin rapidly
drinking. The worst that can happen that way is that you'll wake the
next day with a hangover. Let us know how it goes.
Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:36:42 -0800
From: Bob Tower <tower at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: Elderflower Champagne Brewing Advice
Craig S. Cottingham was giving yeast advice to Daniel Pittman
regarding his Elderflower champagne:
-snip-
That's a good starting gravity for cider, though. I've been told that
White Labs WLP775 finishes fairly sweet, though their website says it
finishes dry.
-snip-
I've used White Labs English cider yeast many times for my various
ciders and with starting gravities between 1.047 and 1.052 my
finishing gravity always ends up at 1.000. Coincidentally, whenever
I've used Wyeast's cider strain with similar starting gravities I've
also ended up at 1.000.
Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:42:57 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Pressure limit of glass jug
From: BRIAN AND DAWN BUDRIS <budris at optonline.net>
>Clear DayDoes anyone know what the pressure limit is for a 1->gallon glass jug
(apple cider type)? I was going to experiment >and try to use them as mini
kegs instead of the PET bottles >that I currently use.
I don't know that I'd do that. OTOH, lots of people told me that I was nuts
for using CO2 to rack my beer from one carboy to another. I seem to remember
that the guy who told me about racking using CO2 did an experiment where they
taped a rubber stopper into a glass carboy and cranked up the pressure. I
think it blew around 30-35psi.
I'm pretty sure that a smaller vessel would take more pressure. In addition,
you need to take into account the thickness of the glass.
>I want to try this because PET can't be used to store beer for >more than 3
months without noticeable oxidation.
Maybe you need to drink more. Where do you live? I'll be right over.
>Should a glass jug be able to hold up to the 8-12 PSI pressure >that I use to
dispense beer without exploding?
I think it should but you could always do a couple reliability/failure tests to
find out the upper limit.
>Also, does anyone know where to purchase glass jugs that are >larger than 1
gallon (with caps)?
Nope. They do make 4L wine jugs but that's not much more than a gallon. What
about carboys? You might need to make your own cap. You might also consider
some 2 or 3 gallon kegs instead.
John Schnupp, N3CNL
(once in a) Blue Moon Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:43:41 -0800
From: Bob Tower <tower at cybermesa.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure limit of glass jug
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:42:45 -0500 BRIAN AND DAWN BUDRIS wrote:
Clear DayDoes anyone know what the pressure limit is for a 1-gallon
glass
jug (apple cider type)? I was going to experiment and try to use
them as
mini kegs instead of the PET bottles that I currently use. I want to
try
this because PET can't be used to store beer for more than 3 months
without
noticeable oxidation. Should a glass jug be able to hold up to the
8-12 PSI
pressure that I use to dispense beer without exploding? Also, does
anyone
know where to purchase glass jugs that are larger than 1 gallon (with
caps)?
-BJB
- ---
DON'T TRY IT! They will explode and you'll require a trip to the
emergency room to extract all the glass from your bodies. If you want
a mini keg, then get a 2.5 gallon Cornelius keg. They are made of
stainless steel and will hold pressure to 130 PSI. Or if that is too
expensive, then try a Party Star keg. I believe they are 5 liters
which is a little more than a gallon.
Bob Tower / Los Angeles, CA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 05:52:57 -0500
From: Nate & Brenda Wahl <cruiser at coastalwave.net>
Subject: RE: slotted false bottoms
Michael wrote:
"I would ideally like to have a false bottom that is above the output
valve on a modified keg." and "A concern I have with this is that too
much mash liquid being below the false bottom."
Then don't raise the bottom, lower the valve! My mash tun outlet is
welded to the bottom dome of the keg, not the side, offset from the
center a couple of inches. With my screen in place (HD 1/8" pitch woven
wire screen w/ 3/32" wire, from a scrap yard, $1/lb!) it leaves about a
pint of volume between it and the bottom. A 1/4" bolt also comes up
through the center of the dome bottom (silver brazed), up to a nut,
fender washer, through the screen, then another washer and lastly a wing
nut, all SS, which supports the screen, top and bottom. Works very
well. You could even rig up a 'bushing' above the center bolt somehow
to keep the bottom of the stirrer from flopping around.
The only difficulty is dealing with the protusion of the outlet, easily
accomodated by the way the tun is mounted.
Cheers!
Nate Wahl
Oak Harbor, OH
(64, 145)
- --
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/168 - Release Date: 11/14/2005
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 07:18:29 -0600
From: "Martin Ammon" <SURFSUPKS at KC.RR.COM>
Subject: TIG Welding Kegs / Back-Purging
Michael
Yep that's sugar alright. You can leave it but it sure is hard to keep
clean. The way I purge gas on the back side is I split the out side of
argon reg. to a T and a needle valve to a length of lite hose with a small
piece of tubing for the probe. I fold a piece of foil little larger than
the item to be Tig I seal it with foil tape over the item place the probe
into the pocket you made with the foil seal it. Turn on the needle valve a
little don't take much gas in that small area Tig the front side and you
will find the inside looks just as good as the out side (in my case better
sometime). I buy the foil tape from my local hardware they have two
different rolls the one in the plumbing dept. used for sealing ducting is
higher in price than the roll by the foil insulation. I make a foil pocket
for each item to be Tig. Give this a try I think you will like the out
come.
Martin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:27:49 -0500
From: Eric Wescott <eric.wescott at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Elderflower "Champagne" ("Dave Burley")
As a cider, wine and mead maker who dabbles in beer...
I have to echo the idea to let the beverage ferment completely, clear
in secondary, then prime with some regular sugars and add a
non-fermentable sweetener at bottling. Non-fermentable sweeteners
include all your normal pink, blue, and yellow stuff, but also actual
sugars a bit off the beaten path, like Lactose. You could also use
maltodextrin, which can taste a bit sweet depending on your pallet.
I'd suggest picking the one that you and your audience thinks tastes
the best, and sweetening to taste before priming at bottling.
The levels of alcohol you are looking at are more cider-like than
champagne/wine. That's fine - think of it like a wine cooler. I've
made many sparkling ciders (including a white grape cider that was
awesome!).
Fermenting white sugar does not add any ill flavors. It does not add
any flavors really. Normal, purified white sugar is regular cane
sugar that has been seperated through centrifuges and similar action
(no bleach, despite popular opinion) from the molasses that is present
in all natural sugars. It is pure sucrose, and will ferment 100%
leaving almost no other flavors.
You could also use a mead trick for melomels to help preserve more
fruit flavor by adding the fruit into the secondary. Instead of
adding the flowers up front and letting them go through primary (where
many flavors can get changed and scrubbed away), add them at secondary
like a dry-hop. Let them sit for about a month to leech out all their
goodness.
Since this is a bit out of the realm of beer, you might get more luck
on some of the other lists which might have more specific experience
with this sort of thing. The Home Vintners Digest
(http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/hvd) might be the most applicable
digest. You could also try a wine specific forum (I like:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewforum.php?f=2)
Happy brewing.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 8:56:38 -0600
From: Eric (Rick) Theiner <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Pressurized Glass
BJB asks about using "glass kegs." I think my message here
may be one of many that say...
DUDE, DON'T DO IT!!
One of the problems with glass is that it is brittle and a
chip or tiny crack will result in the entire thing
shattering-- and with 8-10 psi behind it, you have the
potential for significant injury. On a microscopic level,
aged glass is far from the fluid, uniform state that it
appears to be.
A much safer method would be to use 5 liter minikegs... and
other than the ease (or lack thereof) of draining them during
the cleaning process, I can't see any drawback as compared
to trying this with glass.
Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:38:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: ester result
Steve mentions a startling result regarding esters--that their
production is independent of temperature if oxygen is controlled. My
first reaction is "where can I read more about this?" Steve is there a
reference available?
If this result applies to the kind of brewing we practice then it has
some serious consequences, even if we can't control for oxygen very
well in practice (which I certainly cannot). I can think of a few
interesting implications/questions:
1. It's well established that all of the oxygen is gone within a few
hours of the wort being oxygenated. Thus, after a few hours the
ferment temp has little/no effect on ester production!?
2. I believe from reading certain studies that production of
fusel-derived esters has some real dependence on the levels of the
associated fusel. If this is true, and if the result Steve reported
applies to fusel-based esters, then presumably production of FUSELS is
also independent of temperature when oxygen is controlled!? (And thus
also independent of temp after the first few hours...)
3. This means that (at least as far as esters and maybe fusels go) we
don't have to care about fermentation temps. We only have to care
about the PITCHING temp, and maybe not even that if we can do some
extra aeration.
This is extremely good news if it's true. But it's also a little hard
to swallow without more info. Would love to learn more about this
result.
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:10:36 GMT
From: "markmier at netzero.com" <markmier@netzero.com>
Subject: Need advice -- All-grain system
Hi all. Daily reader, infrequent poster.
I'm looking to get back into all-grain brewing. I've done it before
(using the cheapie plastic bucket / Phil's Phalse Bottom/sparge arm
system), but left all my equipment behind when I moved from Houston
to near Seattle. That was 7 years ago, and I'm itching to get back
to it (extract brewing is fine, but...). Now there are more choices
out there than there were, and I wanted to get the Collective's
opinion. I need a mash/lauter tun and HLT. I've already got a
propane burner and 8-gal brewpot (though I'm also looking to upgrade
to the Polarware 10-gal brewpot for Xmas).
Constraints:
*I only brew 5-gallon batches, single-temp infusion. It is unlikely
that I'll ever want to make a 10-gallon batch. I have enough trouble
drinking all the beer I make as it is. :)
*Most recipes I make would have a max of 12-15lb of grain. If I
wanted to make a barleywine, I would just add extract to the boil,
no sweat.
*Cost isn't much of a factor, within reason. I'm perfectly fine with
spending $500 or so. $2000 would be a bit much.
*I don't need a fully automatic HERMS/RIMS with PID controllers and
automatic control valves and lights and all that. I brew because I
enjoy it, not because I need a massive quantity of beer automatically
made for me. I can tinker later, if I want to.
Options, as I see it:
*2-cooler system. Morebeer's 5-gallon or 10-gallon Gott systems
would work fine.
*"Minibrew.com" system.
*Brewing sculpture, from morebeer. I think this is probably overkill,
space is at somewhat of a premium. But the B3-500 DOES look pretty
sweet.
*Some kind of "homebrew" homebrew system (heh). I am a chemical
engineer, and reasonably proficient with putting together mechanical
things, though my welding sk1llz are... ummm... very primitive.
So, does anyone have experience with the Minibrew system? It looks
pretty cool. It is definitely bigger than I would need, and I'm not
sure about the insulative powers of HDPE (as compared to the Gott
system), but otherwise it looks great -- valves, level glasses,
thermometers, etc. Could even add an immersion heater to the HLT.
I guess I'm leaning toward the 10-gal Gott system, though maybe even
the 5-gal would be sufficient. The Minibrew looks great, but it is
much bigger than I need. Is it an issue for it to be so much bigger
than my anticipated batch size?
Any other suggestions?
Thanks in advance for any help. Respond to the list or to:
markmier AT netzero D0T net
Mark Mierzejewski
Kirkland, WA
[1890.7, 294.6deg] AR
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:34:25 -0600
From: "Dennis O'Brien" <obrien.dennis at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Bad year for hops
First time poster.
Bob Hall commented on his hops a few days ago.
I had my first go at growing hops this year. I planted 4 rhizomes:
Cascade, Goldings, Liberty and Sterling. I was not expecting much, but
expected better than what I harvested, which was less than an ounce of
Cascade, and nada from the other 3.
I live in the Fort Worth area, which is rather dry. We are 20 inches
below normal precipitation for the year. My sprinkler system lost its
programming in June and it was probably a couple weeks until I
discovered it. Prior to then, all four plants were looking good. The
Cascade proved to be very hardy, and probably would have produced more
had I properly pruned it earlier (it was a learning experience). The
other 3 never seemed to recover from that. By July/August, only the
Cascade had any additional growth. The Liberty shows no signs of life
at this point.
I'm not sure what I will replace the Liberty with. Anybody have any
recommendations on heat-tolerant hop varieties?
Dennis OBrien
970.8, 233 Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:53:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Erik & Marina Nelson <erik_marina at yahoo.com>
Subject: 5.2 by Five Star
Has anyone ever used the 5.2 by five star? I need
something to lower my ph since my city just changed my
water setting. It went to a 8.2 from a 7 before
mashing and when I was mashing before it would hit a
5.2 perfectly. I want to know is there any off
flavors and will be beer be clear or cloudy from and
what about the taste.
Thanks
Erik Nelson
Sauk Rapids, MN
www.cloudytownbrewers.org
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4889, 11/15/05
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