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HOMEBREW Digest #4815
HOMEBREW Digest #4815 Mon 01 August 2005
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Cleaning a Counter Flow Wort Chiller ("Williams, Rowan")
Kola and Drinks (Alexandre Enkerli)
Re: metabisulfite and modern Coca Cola ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
FOY, comments & a question in dropping/rousing. ("-S")
RE: Subject: Coke (Steven Parfitt)
RES*BSCRIBE NOW: Temporary release of UCE Blacklists ("Pat Babcock")
ballentine fermentation temp (homebre973)
Coke: heresay and rumors (Jeremy Bergsman)
Re: Brewtek CL920 yeast (stencil)
Response: FOY,05 - Acetate Regulation ("Rob Moline")
Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes ("Rob Moline")
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Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:50:35 +1000
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at ag.gov.au>
Subject: Cleaning a Counter Flow Wort Chiller
Had a quick search on HBD and didn't find an all encompassing answer so here
goes...
I have a brand new Counterflow chiller that I hope to fire up in anger later
this week! It's a copper pipe wort inner with nylex hose outer. I need to
get cold water hose fittings (I'll use reinforced hose with SS clamps for
the wort transfer), but of more concern is how should I clean the virgin
copper wort pipe before use? I have a tub of Bottle wash salts, some "Neo
Pink" cleaner/steriliser, Sod Met, a bottle of Iodophor and some Oxonia as
well as a pack of el cheapo powdered Bleach in the brewery cupboard as my
cleaning gear.
I want to make sure that the copper wort tube is inert and clean (there is a
blue coloured dribble mark on the outside of the wort tube - been there
since I bought it - probably got there when it was tested) so what should I
run through this to make sure that the copper colour in the beer is from the
grains and not the chiller!?
And finally - is it true that you connect the water in at the opposite end
of the wort in (is that the counterflow part)???
Cheers,
Rowan Williams
Canberra Brewers Club
[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:23:01 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: Kola and Drinks
At the risk of belaboring the Coke thread... Coca-Cola in Mali is quite
different from North American or European Coke. Actually, it's very
noticeably different from Coke made in South Africa. Drank one can of
South African Coke in Bamako after drinking bottles of locally-made
Coca-Cola (in part on a physician's recommendation!) and the difference
was quite striking. Malian Coca-Cola did seem to have something of a
kola taste.
Ah... Kola nuts. Not necessarily tasty as if they were a food or
anything. But they give you a nice sensation. Not just because of the
caffeine but there's something of a freshness after you've been chewing
them.
Kola nuts are quite prominent as gifts in West Africa. In Mande
languages, /worotan/ ("ten kola nuts") stands for a specific type of
offering with heavy social significance. Oumou Sangare sings about
worotan in relation to marriage practices.
AFAIK, kola nuts are not used locally in drinks.
Speaking of which... Did anyone try brewing anything with kola nuts?
They're somewhat hard to find here but they could make an interesting
brew. Maybe it'd be similar to guarana but, then again, maybe not.
AleX in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] ApparentRennerianCoordinates
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:17:49 +0930
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Re: metabisulfite and modern Coca Cola
On Saturday, 30 July 2005 at 8:13:06 -0400, Dave Burley wrote:
>
> Dutch beers are brewed differently for the export market. Stella Artois
> tastes differently in France than it does in Germany.
I trust you're not suggesting that Stella Artois is Dutch beer.
That's risking the ire of the Dutch, the Belgians, and all lovers of
good beer :-)
Does anybody know if they market Stella in Germany? I've never seen
it there.
On a more serious note, I recently found myself thirsty in Canberra,
and went into a bottle shop and bought a 6-pack of something
purporting to be Pilsenr Urquell. It tasted completely different.
I've kept a couple of bottles, which I'll drink under controlled
conditions with others who understand beer. My first feeling was that
they had added British-style crystal malt. It was also darker than I
recall from the Czech republic, and it had almost no head.
Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 07:18:40 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: FOY, comments & a question in dropping/rousing.
Sincere thanks (in advance) for all the great info so far on FOY. I'm only
sorry that time doesn't permit greater participation.
> Subject: FOY, 05 - Yeast stress response question for Chris Powell
Hat's off to Chris Powell and Alan Meeker - I learned something I'll
probably be puzzling over for the next several years, and there is no
greater gift than a good puzzle.
Dave Burley brings up a point that caught my eye early on ...
> Subject: Further Response: FOY, 05-Crabtree effect and Overflow Metabolism
DB> Clayton Cone has explained that if have more than 0.2% glucose in our
DB> starters [...]
CC> Response:
CC> I am glad that you asked this question because I did not wish to imply
CC> that there would be no cell wall improvement even in the presence of
CC> oxygen at >0.2% sugar. When the wort has more than >0.2% sugar, the
CC> function of the O2 is to assist the yeast in producing lipids.
[...]
> Clayton Cone
This puzzles me. The Crabtree effect is the repression of respiration in
the presence of *GLUCOSE* concentration above a critical threshold. The
reference to "sugars" generally implies that wort will supress respiration
until the very end of fermentation however I see no evidence that the major
wort sugars, maltose, maltotriose, can produce Crabtree effect.
Malting&Brewing Science vol2, pp593-594 dicusses Crabtree threshold as 0.4%
w/v of glucose table and 17.6 indicates that other monosaccharides
(fructose, mannose, galactose) repress respiration but less effectively than
glucose. Baking yeast (also a Saccharomyces cereviae which exhibit
Crabtree) is grown in an aerobic sucrose media which does not supress
respiration.
Normal 12P all malt wort has roughly 1%(1P) of monosaccharides with glucose
as the most prominant and another roughly 7P of fermentable polysaccharides.
I assume the Crabtree effect ceases to be a factor when the monosaccharide
level drops below the threshold. If monsaccharides are fermented first then
Crabtree ceases to influence yeast metabolism after about 10% of attenuation
has taken place for all-malt wort. This issue has a practical brewing
consequence and leads to a question.
Homebrewers often use one of two distinct methods of yeast "rousing" to
improve attenuation with finicky top fermenting yeasts and both seem
somewhat effective. The traditional British practice of "dropping" or
transfer of fermenting wort at 24-36 hours into fermentation (M&BS pp
668-670) is practiced by some and this certainly causes some oxygen
inclusion. Alternatively many Homebrewers practice some form of "rousing"
by shaking and stirring airlocked fermenters.
My hunch is that "dropping" aeration during active fermentation improves
yeast sterol levels to some extent, but I also expect that Crabtree
repression of respiration is absent after 24 hours of fermentation, so
perhaps another impact, of "dropping" is to permit mitochondrial development
by limited respiration for some flavor advantage. Please comment; what is
the expected impact of this "dropping" aeration ?
The second form of "rousing" presents another question; how does the shaking
of air-locked fermenters late into fermentation improve attenuation ? A
dubious but common explanations for this are that shaking "resuspends"
flocculated yeast or else mixes the remaining fermentables bringing these
into greater yeast contact. Neither explanation is satisfactory. Yeast
flocculate when growth conditions are absent and generally will not
deflocculate until growth conditions are re-established. Also no
significant "fermentable" gradient is likely to appear in a 10 gallon
fermenter. My hunch is that the removal of CO2 by shaking causes the
improvement attenuation. Please comment.
p.s. The original reply by Dr.Cone regarding Crabtree included a typo that
cell walls rather than cell membranes benefit from the oxygen product
sterols. Cell walls are the mannose-protein "skeleton" covered with
chitinous bud scars, while cell membranes are the soft lipid-bilayer
structure that we all (should have) learned about in HS biology [ see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_bilayer ].
-SteveA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: Coke
Just my 2 cents on the coke issue.
I bleive this follows with a lot of other products in
the US.
I remember tasting the New Coke when it was introduced
(although I don't remember the year) and it didn't
have that zing that the original had. I suspect that
this was when coke switched to HFCS, but due to
rejection by the market in general they re-introduced
"Coke Classic". My suspission is that "Coke Classic"
has evolved over time to eliminate the Classic and
substitute HFCS as a cost saving measure.
I fondly remember the taste of coke up thorough the
early 1970s when we used to "pull for cokes". We would
check the bottom of the bottle to see who's bottle was
manufactured farthest away and every one would pitch
in a dollar with the person holding the most distant
bottle taking the pot.
Coke had a sharp sting when it was ice cold, so sharp
it would almost feel like your throat was scorched
when you drank it.
My personal suspission is that along with the switch
to HFCS, they reduced the amount of phosphoric acid,
and carbonation.
It just isn't the same thing any more.
Steven
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:22:53 -0400
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RES*BSCRIBE NOW: Temporary release of UCE Blacklists
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
A year ago, I overlayed UCE blacklisting process on the HBD server. An
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:34:34 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: homebre973 at mindspring.com
Subject: ballentine fermentation temp
I have been following the thread on Ballentine's Ale
and remember it well from my youth (or yoot as we used
to say in the city!) I might have missed it, but what
was the fermentation temperature?
Thanks,
Andy from Hillsborough, NC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:16:08 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: Coke: heresay and rumors
A random collection of facts to add to what has been posted already:
1) I read that when New Coke was introduced (and "old" coke discontinued)
that worldwide vanilla consumption dropped dramatically.
2) I have read that some bottlers produce a sucrose version of Coke for
Passover (which I guess renders it potentially Kosher). (Now that I live in
the northeast I did look in my supermarket one passover, but didn't see any.)
Dave Burley wrote:
> You must
> remember Coke's "attempt" to match Pepsi in sweetness not too long ago. I
> suspect this was a marketing ploy to quietly introduce another sugar source
> and modify the recipe.
3) The label has said high fructose corn syrup and/or sucrose for a long
time, before and after this event. I guess it could be another source of
one of the above, but as discussed (and disagreed with) here frequently,
these things don't have much additional flavor.
4) When I used to live in San Diego, I could consistently taste the
difference between Coke from the San Diego and the Los Angeles bottlers
(which was found in some places in San Diego, although I believe there is
now only one SoCal bottler). This difference I am confident was real. I
also feel that I taste the difference from place to place around the
country, but these samplings are too infrequent to be so confident. I
believe the water must be the difference here--why would Coke let a bottler
assemble the syrup which would mean giving away the recipe?
(Of course I prefer the taste from my hometown.)
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://bergsman.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:01:39 -0400
From: stencil <etcs.ret at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Brewtek CL920 yeast
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:20:57 -0400,
in Homebrew Digest #4810 (July 26, 2005),
Randy Ricchi wrote:
>
>Stencil resuscitated some old weizen yeast.
>
>I'd be interested to hear your comments on how the beer tastes after the
>first real tasting on August 1.
>
I stole a march and did it yesterday, with soft pretzels and mustard, and a
well-salted avocado. The clove and tartness were bang-on and dominated the
profile to mask any others. Fermentation and bottle conditioning had been at
cellar ambient: 68 - 70F. Priming was with corn sugar, 1oz/gal. Heading was
excellent, fine-grained and persistent. Overall, beer was sweet and lacked
body, but that may relate to the use of the very last of the 2002 grain and
hops I had, and mashing right up at 160F - I mashed with the intent of
bottling in 28-oz soda bottles and wanted to keep the ABV down.. When this
has drunk down a ways I'll do it again, a little starker.
Anyhow, the yeast say Hi, they're fine.
stencil sends
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:48:50 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Response: FOY,05 - Acetate Regulation
From: "Fredrik"
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast, 2005 - Follow up - acetate regulation
Thank you very much for your responses.
Since I have a particular interest with acid production of yeast,
mainly acetate, I take to opportunity to submit a follow up question
specific on trying to make sure I understand the regulation of
acetate production.
I've read a few articles on the topic and from what I think I
understand,
during anaerobic fermentations it's a cytosolic aldehyde dehydrogenase
(ALD3) that seems responsible for acetate production, via NAD+
regeneration?
For some reson I did not find this in the S.C genom database
(http://www.yeastgenome.org/)
Is it newly discovered, or why?
Response: Believe me the ALD3 gene is there in the SGD database, I have
come across it before. If it is not giving you the gene try using ALD
only as the query and it should return the list for the whole ALD
family. ALD3 will be there. Otherwise try the CYGD at MIPS (Munich
information centre for protein sequences).
(http://mips.gsf.de/genre/proj/yeast/)
Forbes
So it seems that acetate production has to do with the NAD+/NADH
level in the cytosol as well as perhaps the cytosolic acetaldehyde
stress?
Since acetaldehyde is supposedly a highly stressful and toxic compound I
assume that unless it's promptly converted into ethanol maybe because of
too high NAD+/NADH level (due to for example glycerol production?)
or because of elevated acetaldehyde pools due to glycolysis overflow,
the yeast has no choice but to dispose the acetaldehyde as acetate(??),
even at the cost of being counterproducing regarding cytosolic pH, this
conversion should also help restore the redox balance i the event that
it
was skewed due to .
The only "sense" I can see in the acetate production atm,
is that it is
1) either a way to get rid of the (even more) toxic
acetaldehyde, when that starts to pool for some reason,
2) or a way to generate NADH when called for.
Then if you ontop of this relate to nutrition and limited growth.
Would it be decent enough to say that a reduced growth *might*
in some cases lead to increased acetate because a declined demand
for acetyl-CoA and thus less consumption of NAD+? So
making some acetate make make up for that? Or is the mechanism
another one?
Response: Of the genes in the ALD family only one is constantly being
expressed and this is almost certainly to prevent the build up of
acetaldehyde while producing acetate, which is one of the more central
building blocks in yeast. The other enzymes are generally repressed by
glucose and so are not an issue in this context. The enzyme that is
constantly expressed does not use NAD+, but rather NADP+. So it is not
entirely clear.
Forbes
Also, since I've seen reports with correlations on
elevated glycerol (HOG response) and elevated acetate as
a means to restore the skewed redox balance caused by
glycerol production? I've seen the HOG response would
induce ALD3, and the cytosolic enzyme making acetate.
Can you briefly comment on this? Do you think it is anywhere near
the truth or I am missing some other keys?
Response: Once you start involving the HOG response you will be in an
even worse situation,( can the HOG response over-ride the effect of
Glucose repression?). Another thing to remember is that the HOG response
will vary from strain to strain and it may even vary depending on the
background of each particular propagation. Same yeast strain from
different propagations may perform, principally, in the same manner,
sugar to alcohol etc but there secondary, behaviours may very quite
considerably.
Forbes
Is there any chance that simple sugars, may induce a moderate HOG
response? Now sucrose may be different as I still don't know the rate of
inversion on the bulk sugar, but 1P glucose or fructose would initially
have
the osmotic influence as 2P maltose? Any chance the simple sugar -
HOG response - acetate, can be a factor?
So far I made most of my sugarbrew tests with sucrose, could sucrose
and the surface bound invertase enzymes somehow cause a HOG
responses by messsing with local sugar gradients around the cell wall
and cell membrane cause an apparent higher osmotic stress somehow??
Response: With the HOG response you may need more of one sugar than
that of another. Plus if the yeast was to come from an environment
where the HOG response had recently been elicited then it will probably
take a bigger sugar concentration to elicit the response than before. I
think this unlikely. For the invertase to be present and active
(in-between the cell wall and membrane) then there should a HOG response
according to the level of sucrose. I do not believe the release of
glucose and fructose would add to any HOG response. They will be
transported quite rapidly and used by the yeast. The bigger risk with
invertase may be that it's activity produces significant glucose levels
to initiate the "Crabtree effect" and if this were to occur then the
yeast would lose the invertase activity. However, I believe that this
is unlikely in healthy yeast. Typical industrial samples of invertase
normally have rates of around 40 Units per mg........this means that in
one minute 1mg of enzyme will convert 43micromoles of Sucrose into
invert sugars(at a given temp and pH) I have read reports of quite a
varied level of activity for the enzyme in different yeasts, both
Saccharomyces and non-Saccharomyces.
Forbes
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:00:59 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes
Fortnight Of Yeast-2005-Concludes
As we conclude another FOY, I would like to thank all that
participated, especially our yeast experts! If you would care to express any
personal thanks to our panel, please send a message to me with the subject
"Thanks for the FOY!," and I will forward it.
If any of your questions have fallen through the cracks and have not
been answered, please forward them directly to me.
I would also like to thank Pat Babcock and his continuing efforts to
support brewing!
Cheers!
Rob
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4815, 08/01/05
*************************************
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