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HOMEBREW Digest #4773
HOMEBREW Digest #4773 Tue 10 May 2005
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Electrical Help? ("Pete Calinski")
Re: Electrical Help? (Scott Alfter)
Re: Perlick faucet failure? (Dennis Collins)
RE: Electrical Help? ("Ronald La Borde")
RE: Brewer's Rendezvous - Is it Closed? ("William C. Tobler")
Re: RE: Electrical Help? ("Eric R. Theiner")
Re: Perlick faucet failure? (Dylan Tack)
Re: Electrical Help? ("Spencer W. Thomas")
RE: Electrical Help? (Steven Parfitt)
RE: Perlick faucet failure? (Derek Sheehan)
Perlick faucets ("Peed, John")
RE: Something failed... ("Brian Lundeen")
Re: Electrical Help? (Adrian Levi)
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Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 22:25:30 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Electrical Help?
It sounds like all the wiring is right. Any chance you were so slow at
plugging it in that you were making intermittent contact and causing
multiple sparks? Maybe just plugging it in fast would be better.
I assume you had the element in water. It will burn up real fast in air.
If that doesn't cure it, can you try it with 110 V; just for giggles?
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
http://hbd.org/pcalinsk
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*My goal:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:22:51 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Electrical Help?
Eric R. Theiner wrote:
> I have got my element for my brew kettle wired, got the extra 220v outlet
> wired, and have everything sealed... and I go to test it this morning and
> slooooowly push the plug in, and got a flash and a pop! I pulled it back
> quickly and the breaker had not blown (hope nothing else blew instead!), and
> one of the hot poles on the plug now has a char mark on it. I'm not sure
> what I've done wrong, so I'll describe my wiring and diagnostics so far.
>
> The heater element only has two screws. I screwed one hot pole to each and
> grounded to the brass exterior of the heat stick. I wired the outlet in
> such a way as to be sure (and I have doublechecked) that the two hot poles
> are definately continous to the element and the ground wire is continuous to
> ground mentioned above (on the brass exterior of the heat stick).
What did you do with the neutral connection? You've connected the two live
wires (red and white) to the heater power terminals and the ground (green) to
the heatstick. With a 240V heater element, neutral (black) should be left
disconnected.
At the plug, an ohmmeter across the pins should read something like this:
live 1-ground: infinity
live 2-ground: infinity
live 1-neutral: infinity
live 2-neutral: infinity
live 1-live 2: just a few ohms, but not zero
ground-neutral: infinity
Resistance across the heater element (live 1-live 2) will vary according
to the element you use. I use 120V 1.5kW elements for my heatsticks, which
should read 9.6 ohms (you'll probably gain a few tenths of ohms going through
the plug and cord; I see 10 ohms at the plug). 240V 3kW elements should present
double that resistance, or 19.2 ohms; 240V 4.5kW elements should read 12.8
ohms. For these low values of resistance, if you can't zero the meter when it's
shorted (many DMMs lack a zero adjustment), you'll want to measure the
resistance of the test leads (short them together) and subtract that out of
your reading.
Going between the body of the heatstick (or the body of the heater
element) and the pins on the plug, you should get zero (or close to it) on the
ground pin and infinity on the rest.
(I'm assuming that you had a 4-pin outlet (14-30R or 14-50R) put in to
power your setup. If you have a 3-pin outlet, things get tricky. With
a 6-20R, 6-30R, or 6-50R outlet, you get two lives and ground, but no
neutral. If everything's connected as you described, it should still
work. With 10-30R or 10-50R, though, you get two lives and neutral, but
no ground. Connecting the body of the heatstick to neutral would be a
Bad Thing. (The different outlet types are shown in a chart at
http://www.leviton.com/sections/techsupp/nema.htm.))
> After the event mentioned above, I used my multimeter to make sure that
> there were no shorts to the ground, and I got absolutely no deflection
> between the (unplugged) hot poles and the ground. I was afraid that the
> silicone sealant might have crossed the poles (although I'm pretty sure it's
> non-conductive).
Any silicone sealant you would use in a food-contact application would
be non-conductive. You might want to double-check to make sure you have
no leaks, though. It should also be fully-cured before you fire it up
(give it at least 48 hours).
_/_ Scott Alfter
/ v \ Visit the SNAFU website today!
(IIGS( http://snafu.alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:50:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Dennis Collins <dcollins at springmail.com>
Subject: Re: Perlick faucet failure?
"The facts seem straightforward - the beer apparently came out of the
faucet with the handle in the closed position. My only logical conclusion
is that the faucet seal failed."
Funny you should mention this. I and a friend of mine both have the
Perlick faucets and have both experienced this problem, although not
to the degree that you did. Theonly seal on these faucets is an O-ring
that is the "forward seal". It appearsthat the act of shutting off the
faucet, pushes the seal in place and seals, however, if you don't push
the handle back with some modicum of force, the O-ring can only
partially seal and then sit there and leak. The handle looks likes
it's closed, but it's really not. I've found that I just need to make
sure the faucet is closed by giving the handle a good solid push
backwards to make sure the O-ring seals. So far so good. If your
seal did fail, it's a snap to replace, but I don't have the size handy.
Other than that, I can vouch for your love of these forward sealing
faucets. No more stuck handles like I used to have after only a few
days of inactivity with the standard type. I've left these alone for
a couple of weeks and still had no sticking at all. In addition,
they seem to stay cleaner because they don't have all that dried
up beer inside.
Prosit,
Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com
"In theory, theory and practice are the same, but not in practice."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:17:13 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Electrical Help?
>From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
>
>I go to test it this morning and slooooowly push the plug in,
>and got a flash and a pop! I pulled it back quickly and the
>breaker had not blown
Since many things could cause the above result, this is sort of a
guessing exercise based on what to look for:
First, and not to lecture, but slowly pushing in the plug was not so
good an idea. Quickly removing it would be better, but the 240 volts
is much faster than you ever could be. That the breaker did not blow
could mean that the breaker is somewhat slow, or more likely whatever
caused the pop was not enough to trip the breaker.
What could the pop mean? You do not mention how the circuit is
controlled. I assume you just had a direct connection. If you used
stranded wire, and you should have, possibly a single stray strand in
the plug, or anywhere in the wiring was causing a short that was blown
(vaporized) when you first made contact. If this is the case, then the
short is now gone and your measurements will not show it. Look for
some telltale smoke residue at all the connection locations where this
could happen.
It is also possible that the element had a short at 240 volts that
does not show when tested at low voltage by the multimeter. Not
likely, but possible. You could remove the element and protect the
open connection and try the plug again. You could connect to a 240
volt light bulb, or easier to get, two 120 volt bulbs in series, and
try the plug again. This will tell you the wiring to the element is
all good.
Finally, back to slowly pushing in the plug, it is also possible that
nothing is wrong. Pushing in the plug slowly would cause a very small
conduction point that would get very hot and melt, vaporize, cause a
spark, a pop, and all sorts of entertainment at 240 volts with 20 amps
or so.
Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:24:06 -0500
From: "William C. Tobler" <wtobler at houston.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Brewer's Rendezvous - Is it Closed?
Paul asked,
<Are they closed?
Don't know. But...
<If so, can anyone make a recommendation on companies which
<supply lab supplies on a smaller scale? Specifically, petri plates,
<autoclavable slant rack, autoclavable pipettes?
Try http://www.brewstersyeast.com/
or e-bay
http://search.ebay.com/autoclavable-
rack_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQcatrefZC6QQfromZR10QQsacatZ
-1QQcatrefZC6QQsargnZ-1QQsaslcZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1
(You will probably have to past the above URL together to make it work.)
They have quite a few yeast ranching supplies.
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.2, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:02:13 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Electrical Help?
Thanks for the reply Ron,
Yep, I agree that I am not quite as fast as the speed of light, but my thought
was that a reflex would be enough to keep me from getting cooked if I didn't
have a tight connection. Perhaps untrue, but I'm an optimist.<g>
Further investigation has determined that the problem was either an initial arc
or the small conduction point that you mentioned. I'm installing a switch to
prevent this in the future, but otherwise it looks like the system works like a
champ!
Now for the controller box...
Rick
>
> From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
> Date: 2005/05/10 Tue AM 09:17:13 CDT
> Subject: RE: Electrical Help?
>
>First, and not to lecture, but slowly pushing in the plug
>was not so good an idea. Quickly removing it would be
>better, but the 240 volts is much faster than you ever could
>be. That the breaker did not blow could mean that the
>breaker is somewhat slow, or more likely whatever caused the
>pop was not enough to trip the breaker.
>
>What could the pop mean? You do not mention how the circuit
>is controlled. I assume you just had a direct connection. If
>you used stranded wire, and you should have, possibly a
>single stray strand in the plug, or anywhere in the wiring
>was causing a short that was blown (vaporized) when you
>first made contact. If this is the case, then the short is
>now gone and your measurements will not show it. Look for
>some telltale smoke residue at all the connection locations
>where this could happen.
>
>It is also possible that the element had a short at 240
>volts that does not show when tested at low voltage by the
>multimeter. Not likely, but possible. You could remove the
>element and protect the open connection and try the plug
>again. You could connect to a 240 volt light bulb, or easier
>to get, two 120 volt bulbs in series, and try the plug
>again. This will tell you the wiring to the element is all
>good.
>
>Finally, back to slowly pushing in the plug, it is also
>possible that nothing is wrong. Pushing in the plug slowly
>would cause a very small conduction point that would get
>very hot and melt, vaporize, cause a spark, a pop, and all
>sorts of entertainment at 240 volts with 20 amps or so.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 10:57:16 -0500
From: Dylan Tack <dylan at io.com>
Subject: Re: Perlick faucet failure?
Ed Dorn asked about trouble with a leaky Perlick faucet...
I use the Vent-Matic faucets (which the Perlick design is based on),
and haven't had trouble. The way the seal is designed, the pressure
will push the valve closed. So it's hard to imagine a new seal
failing. Maybe a piece of solid debris (trub or hops?) got stuck in
the gate, causing it to remain open slightly? When you found it in the
morning, was there gas coming out of the faucet, or had it closed again?
-Dylan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:01:16 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <hbd at spencerwthomas.com>
Subject: Re: Electrical Help?
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
>
>I go to test it this morning and slooooowly push the plug in,
>and got a flash and a pop!
Am I correct in assuming that there is no inline switch? That the
element is connected directly to the cord? This is not, in my opinion,
good practice. If there's no switch in the device, then you should have
a switch to cut power to the outlet. If you can't do either, you should
switch off the power at the breaker when you plug it in.
It's really not a good idea to plug in (or unplug) a high-current device
"live." As you found, you can get nasty sparking at the time of
contact. You could, in the worst case, get an "instant weld" of plug to
socket.
Do yourself a favor and install a switch somewhere in the circuit.
=Spencer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:42:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Electrical Help?
Eric R. Theiner laments:
> Hi Guys,
> I'm hoping that the plethora of knowledge that has
> gotten me to this point in building my electric
> brewing can help me with what I've apparently
> missed...
> I have got my element for my brew kettle wired, got
> the extra 220v outlet wired, and have everything
> sealed... and I go to test it this morning and
> slooooowly push the plug in, and got a flash and a
> pop! I pulled it back quickly and the breaker had
> not blown (hope nothing else blew instead!), and one
> of the hot poles on the plug now has a char mark on
> it.
....snip.....
> Thanks!
> Rick
Rick, what you need is a doubble pole single throw
switch rated at 20 Amperes (or some comfortable number
greater than the proposed currend draw).
Plugs and sockets are not designed for "Hot Plugging"
and you have seen the results of doing so.
Always make sure power is OFF before pulling a plug or
inserting it.
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:54:28 -0400
From: Derek Sheehan <w7rex at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Perlick faucet failure?
Ed,
I have been using Perlick faucets for over a year with no issues at all.
I think they are wonderful devices that require a lot less maintenance
than the standard design.
I recommend that you take it apart and inspect it carefully. You should
be able to detect a seal failure. Also, try the Perlick website at
http://www.perlick.com/warranty-info.shtml for warranty info. They have
a 1 year parts warranty.
In my house if that incident happened I would have to assume that the
cat did it, the kids did it (or their friends) or some other mishap. My
faucets have been working perfectly.
I hope you can figure it out!
Derek
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:05:23 -0700
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Perlick faucets
I have five on my beer fridge; at least two have leaked on occasion.
You have to make darn sure that you get them fully closed - sometimes a
couple of mine will just dribble. I've not found cleaning to help any -
you just have to make sure they're completely off before walking away.
John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:27:05 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: RE: Something failed...
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 14:32:48 -0700
> From: Ed Dorn <edorn at mailblocks.com>
> Subject: Perlick faucet failure?
>
> As of 11:00 PM last nite, all was well. Then when I went into the
> garage this morning, all the beer in the keg had been dumped to the
> garage floor.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas about other possible
> causes,
Did you annoy SWMBO recently? ;-)
Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:58:11 +1000
From: Adrian Levi <hoarder at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: Electrical Help?
> From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
<Snipped>
> I have got my element for my brew kettle wired, got the
> extra 220v outlet wired, and have everything sealed... and I
> go to test it this morning and slooooowly push the plug in,
> and got a flash and a pop! I pulled it back quickly and the
> breaker had not blown (hope nothing else blew instead!), and
> one of the hot poles on the plug now has a char mark on it.
> I'm not sure what I've done wrong, so I'll describe my
> wiring and diagnostics so far.
1)Check the ohms between the two terminals on the heater, then from each
terminal to earth. Do these same tests at the plugtop to check for
transposed wires.
3)I live in Australia so I may be wrong here; AFAIK US uses a floating
live system. Check your voltage from each 'hot' pin on the socket to
earth. and from 'hot' to 'hot'. The way I understand it, you should only
have 220v between the two 'hot' wires. You might have crossed the earth
and hot wire at the socket.
2)Find someone with a 'megger' to test the insulation resistance of your
heater element. It may have a high resistance short that only shows up
under load voltage.
Adrian
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------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4773, 05/10/05
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