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HOMEBREW Digest #4676
HOMEBREW Digest #4676 Thu 16 December 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Stable Cultures, Brewer's Age (Slightly OT) (Alexandre Enkerli)
Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures (Chet Nunan)
Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference Jan. 14-16 Arlington, Virginia - a la carte ticket prices ("Rick Garvin")
Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point ("Adam M. Bumpus")
kegs and magnetic labels (Joe Yoder)
"Oranging" Rate for Celis Clone (Bob Hall)
RE: Corny ked labeling/tags, Broken glass and PET carboys ("Ronald La Borde")
Re: Corny ked labeling/tags ("RYAN WILLIS")
Confusing me.blue staining results / Viability test (help needed) ("Fredrik")
Fridge magnets on a cornie (Calvin Perilloux)
Re: Little room for beer... ("Meyer, Aaron D.")
non-magnetic SS kegs ("Dave Burley")
Re: Labelling Kegs (Kent Fletcher)
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:29:21 -0500
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Stable Cultures, Brewer's Age (Slightly OT)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor (at [0,0] ARC) talked about the stability of
mixed cultures for sourdough. E.g., the starter he gave at a
conference...
> came from the famous Poilane bakery in Paris about 15 years ago, but,
> while it started out producing bread very much in the French style, it
> changed in a few months to a different, stable, character.
Fascinating! Is there a good reference on this "microbiological
stability?"
Sorry if it's too basic for microbiologists and biochemists here but,
to this cultural anthropologist, it's just...fascinating!
Is it related to the stability of a single strain of yeast in a given
brewery? Is it based on which bugs are dependent on which other bugs?
Are environmental factors very influential? Might this apply to wort
more than environment, in terms of brewing? Could this be applied to
pLambic production? If so, does oak soaking help? Are there good
methods to maintain a stable culture in wort? Is there a map of which
cultures are stable in which locations?
As for age... I'm 32 and the oldest floppies I remember were 5.25".
Never used them, only those 3.5" ones. Haven't used any kind of floppy
since the 1990s... Of course, I do remember the cassette tapes for
Commodore 64s and ViC 20s (I had the latter).
How does this relate to brewing? Well, think about what an entry-level
PDA can do with brewing data in comparison with these computers which
allegedly used 8" floppies... A while ago, brewers couldn't measure
most of the things we take for granted. Soon, brewers will take for
granted a lot of things we struggle with today. Chances are, computers
will play a big part in that. And so will computer networks.
Data *can* be fun!
AleX in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] ApparentRennerianCoordinates
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:57:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: Jeff Renner & sourdough cultures
Jeff, have you ever experimented with souring beers
with these cultures? Lambicus San Franciscus?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:38:47 -0500
From: "Rick Garvin" <rgarvin at garvin.us>
Subject: Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference Jan. 14-16 Arlington, Virginia - a la carte ticket prices
The Spirit of Belgium 2005 conference is one month away. Due the very large
meeting space we have this time around we are able to physically accommodate
more people. We have held off offering tickets for individual events until
now, despite enormous demand. Most of the Belgian beers we are bring in for
the tastings and banquet are very rare and could not support a large event.
We guarantee everyone has a chance to try every beer by limiting attendance.
We are now offering individual tickets for single days, tastings and the
banquet. The beer list is too long to post; most of the beers will be poured
by their brewers or importers. Check out http://burp.org/events/sob/2005/
for details on tickets and beers.
In 2005 we feature speakers from Belgium, England and all across the US.
- Tim Webb - author of CAMRA's Good Beer Guide to Belgium & Holland and
LambicLand
- Jean-Louis Dits - owner and brewer at Brasserie a Vapeur
- Peter Bouckaert - brewer at New Belgium and former brewer at Rodenbach
- US brewers of Belgian-style Beer - Rob Tod, Phil Markowski, Bill Madden
and Tomme Arthur
- Discussions on Belgian Beer styles and homebrewing by Dave Logsden, Chris
White, Phil Markowski, Jeff Sparrow, Stan Hieronymous
- Full details at http://burp.org/events/sob/2005/schedule.htm
Cheers, Rick
Rick Garvin - rgarvin at garvin.us
Mobile: 703-629-4671
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:40:19 -0600
From: "Adam M. Bumpus" <adam at bump.us>
Subject: Another USPS Beer and Shipping data point
I'm sure that many of you have ordered from B3 in the past and may remember
the rather distinctive packing tape they use to seal their boxes. The tape
is white with red lettering that reads "Beer, Beer and More Beer, This
package contains NO alcohol".
This morning SWMBO attempted to reuse a box from B3 to send a Christmas gift
to my grandmother in Chicago. She was informed by the postal clerk that such
a package could not be accepted because USPS will not ship alcohol.
Apparently, the presence of the word 'Beer' anywhere on the outside of the
package will disqualify it from being sent through the postal service.
Eventually the matter was resolved by placing Priority Mail logo tape over
the offending B3 tape. This naturally converted the contents back into
Christmas gifts, reversing the earlier magic transformation into beer when
they were sealed into a box containing the word beer on the outside.
Adam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:48:28 -0600
From: Joe Yoder <headduck at swbell.net>
Subject: kegs and magnetic labels
Brewers:
Brian suggests using flexible magnetic labels for kegs. It is unlikely
that this would work very well, since most kegs are stainless steel,
which does not attract magnets.
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:46:57 -0500
From: Bob Hall <rallenhall at henry-net.com>
Subject: "Oranging" Rate for Celis Clone
I've grown attached to Celis White over the holidays and would like to try
a clone. I have two 5 gal. recipes. The first, from BYO, calls for 1 oz. of
bitter orange peel, 1 oz. of sweet orange peel (no indication as to dried
or fresh for either ... can fresh be used?), and 1 oz. crushed coriander.
The second recipe, from North American Clone Brews, calls for .25 oz. dried
bitter orange peel and .25 oz. crushed coriander. This seems like a big
difference, but as I've never done a Belgium I'm not sure if the difference
is as distinct as it appears. Any advice as to "oranging," "coriandering,"
or cloning a Celis is appreciated.
Happy Holidays!
Bob Hall
Napoleon, OH
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:29:49 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Corny ked labeling/tags, Broken glass and PET carboys
>From: "Dan Hansen" <dan at hansen.org>
>Subject: Corny ked labeling/tags
>
>Has anyone come up with a system that easily label their
>kegs?
Whooee, we beezz busy makin tags it seems!
I have used some homemade plastic tags permanently tie-wrapped onto
the handle. Then I use the round sticky dots to stick onto the plastic
tags. When I PBW a keg, on goes a sticky dot with PBW written on it.
Sanitize the keg, another dot, etc... When all is done, I just scrape
the dots off and leave the plastic tag tie-wrapped on until the next
cycle.
Hey, a thought just came to me! Well, another thought anyhow. I once
read about garden tags made from beer cans! Yes, cut open a beer can,
cut out a rectangle and fold it upon itself shiny side out, crimp all
the edges over itself, and now you have a nice free (almost) metal
tag. Only problem is how to get a beer can. Anyone on HBD ever have a
beer can? :>))
==================================
>From: Seth Boquet <sboquet at earthlink.net>
>Subject: Broken glass and PET carboys
>
>I'm interested in hearing suggestions for any non-breakable
>inexpensive fermenters.
Cheap? Get any old bucket or plastic container, or even a cardboard
box and put a plastic food grade disposable bag in it. Then you can
gather the top and place the stopper and rubber band or tie all tight
and when fermentation is done, toss it!
===================================
>From: Danny WIlliams <dbwill at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Collapsed inner tubing in CFC
>
> The old tubing had collapsed in no less than six
> places. Some as short as 1", and th worst a full 3'
> section was squashed flat.
> What the hell happened?
I have a somewhat different scenario about this. I suspect the tubing
was flattened when first constructed. I think when you coiled the
chiller, the radius was a bit too small and the tubing was severely
flattened at that time. Then, as you used it, some sedimentation
caused the flow to be even more restricted until you finally found it
unusable. Just a guess.
Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:48:26 +0000
From: "RYAN WILLIS" <montanaredeye2 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Corny ked labeling/tags
Re: Corny ked labeling/tags
My local beer shop (closed) in Redmond Oregon had some labels which were
used as a marketing tool. They were a vinyl label 2x 2. You could write on
them with a pen and then take them off your fermenter and stick them on a
keg. very reusable. when you got done with the batch (sniffle) you could
take windex and wipe the pen ink off the label. I would use each label about
2-3 times before it would lose it stickyness. things a include on the
label..
Name of Beer and Date brewed
Batch name...
Promash number....
S.G. 1.065 -or whatever
F.G. 1.012 -After kegging
Kegged on...
Awards
My shop closed this last week. I'll call and see if he had an of them left.
They come in a roll of about 200. If he has any more i write and sell a
few.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 18:16:42 +0100
From: "Fredrik" <carlsbergerensis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Confusing me.blue staining results / Viability test (help needed)
Hello everyone,
Maybe someone on here can help me on this. I try my best to
understand the yeast but having no bio background I sometimes
feel limited.
Since I got a microscope a year ago I've tried to always examine
the yeast in microscope, to get to know my yeasts and to learn.
I've found it extremely useful and has been able to confirm
things that previsouly was only theory. So far I've found both
viability testing as per the methyleneblue staining as well as
glycogen estimating from iodine staining very easy to perform,
also the results I've see have so far has made sense, and the
method seem pretty reproducable - until recently(!) when I ran
into some pretty weird results.
Though I don't know all details I am aware of the distinction
between ability to reduce methylene blue and the ability to complete
one initial budding cycle as I would assume that the effort to reduce
the dye is far less than to complete a budding cycle. Also it has
been reported in various places that incertain states, viable cells
fail to metabolise the dye, for example very recently released buds
that are under maturation tend to be stained though alive. I have
also seen reports that itns't not reliable below 90% etc. This is fair
enough, but that said, I still haven't found any typical numbers for the
magnitued of deviations? Qualitative results are of limited value,
I need numbers. What would the worst case deviation
between methods be? I will do some future tests on this myself
but so far I haven't gotten around to it and this is bugging me. Also
it is way too interesting to let pass without reaching at least a likely
explanation.
Before I present the problem and to illustrate the method and show
one test I've done so far, here is a slurry-in-the-fridge-viability-drop
test I did during 82 days:
Background/Details ----------------------------------------------
The yeast/WY3463 was collected immediately after a 3-4 day
primary of a 1.064 leffe clone attempt. At this point the viabiltiy
was about or above 95% as per the mehtylene blue/microscope method.
Then the sediment, around 1 liter was put into a close PET bottle
with some headspace, so oxygen access was unavoidable, though most
of if was flushed by release CO2.
It was put in my fridge at 5C. The yeast was not washed or anything.
I just put the sediement including residual beer into the PET as
was - this was part of the experiment. It was capped (pressure
released manually periodically) and on each sampling I, stirred the
bottle carefully to homogensize the sample well and poured a small
sample that was further diluted stirred and coloured. So at each
sampling some O2 was probably let into the bottle, most probably
affecting the result.
The results is here
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/graph_82days.jpg
I still have the experiment going becaseu I want to see how it flattens,
but this is the current dataset. To me this "made sense".
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Now to the point that confused me and is the reason for this post:
I recently opened a 19 month old WY2565 that has been in the
fridge. In order to not screw up the results. I opened the 50ml
smack pack without popping the wort bag.
It had 31 ml slurry (24ml wort bag), since I am going to dobulecheck
my counting method I will omit the cell density data. Beucase it may
or may not the incorrect.
(I have found low counts on two wyeast packs, so the make sure it's not
something wrong with my method I have will get a new counter chamber
next week and I will double check the counts. Due to this I avoid
writing anything about the cell counts)
Now what shocked me was that viability appeared to be 86%. Now this
doesn't make any sense at all, right? I have never checked viability
of a smack pack before, and it's obvious that it would last way better
than my fridge slurry because it was optimally packaged and no O2
etc... but 86% after 19 months? I just don't believe it unless someone
can hammer it into my head.
So the question is, why does the method fail? (I emailed wyeast longe time
ago to hear their opinion, but they seem to not care to respond)
Another data point. I made a ~5 million/ml/P (?estimtate) starter of this
19 month old yeast, that got going after 2 days. So the yeast is alive,
which it should be, but 86% is just amazingly good, so good I can't
believe it.
I have a number of more or less speculative theories that may or many not
explain this, but I ask for your advice here.
1) First, what is the typica deviation in the straining method? If what
I see is due to the limitation of the method?
The cells look deeply dormant somehow where the core is shrinked?
can someone confirm? I suspect the core is staing but not the entire
cell - why? Is the elongated shape normalt for kolsh strain?
Here are some pics
(activated - with ome wort) I suspect this shows that the core are staine
on some cells but not on all.
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/activated2565.jpg
http://hem.bredband.net/frerad/beer/modelling/pictures/WY25659monhts2002.jpg
I'm sorre for the crappy pics but it's the best I can get with my hobby quality
microscope at this magnification.
Oh, yeas, why the werid seemingly inconsistent budding pattern in the
pics - someone? this kolsh strain is the weirdest stuff I've seen. What is
up with this strain? Is this normal? I know it's not what I'm used to see
with other ale strains.
I have studied mostly nottingham, and they make more sense, only by simple
visual inspection you can see that the kolsh is really different.
( For the issues mentioned above am eventually going to try to correlated
this with cfu numbers from plating - on my todo list :-(
I am also waiting for a "industral standard" hemacytometer I've ordered
to arrive, so far I have used a home made procedure, that I do think
should work good enough. But because I have repeatadly found low counts in
smack packs (out of spec) I am going to get a real cell chamber so I can
double check my method. However most counts I've made has made sense.
)
Any insights on yeast morphology on starvation/storage or input on the
methylene blue method is highly appreciated. Also any input what's up
with this weird koelsh strain. I have yet no expereince with lager or wine
strains. Koelsh doesn't seem like a typical ale strain anyway judging from
what I've seen.
/Fredrik
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:29:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Fridge magnets on a cornie
>From the latest HBD regarding labels on cornie kegs:
> How about using some flexible magnetic material such as this:
> http://www.fridgedoor.com/5x8flexmagsh7.html
> I have a larger piece like this on my refrig [...]
Works great on the fridge. But I dunno about on a stainless
steel cornie keg, since magnets don't stick onto 300-series
stainless steel very well.
Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:38:12 -0600
From: "Meyer, Aaron D." <Aaron.Meyer at oneok.com>
Subject: Re: Little room for beer...
>> Since keg discussion is in vogue, does the collective
>> have any hints on how to use/chill kegs in an
>> apartment without overtaking the one and only large
>> refrigerator?
>'m a huge fan of cold plates. If you can't drill holes in your fridge
(likely
>not, right?), drop into your favorite Big Box Store, Salvation Army, or
St.
>Vincent DePaul (or other thrift store) and find one of those little
cube
>fridges. Pop a coldplate in, drill any necessary holes, ad faucets and,
voila!
>A draught system that takes little space. Hell, if you don't mind
keeping it
>iced, you could even pop a cold plate into a cooler to the same end.
I am in a simmilar situation with a small keggerator that only holds a
single soda keg. I can see using this suggestion if the keg was
pre-chilled and then taken to a party, but does it work for a longer
term serving setup with the keg at room temp?
Will the warm keg last as long as a chilled keg and will it have any off
flavors from continued warm storage?
Do I use a CO2 pressure to hold the carbonation at the room temp: 68F or
the serving temp: 44F?
Does anyone have experience with this type of setup? It would be great
have 3 kegs running off one jockey-boxed fridge...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:16:18 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: non-magnetic SS kegs
Brewsters:
Brian Milan suggests that a magnetic strip would be a good idea for a keg
label. I guess so, if you tape it on.
I have to admit I never tested my kegs with a magnet, but check out
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1140
310 and 314 SS are non-magnetic. 304 SS if cold worked a lot can become
magnetic, but normally isn't. I believe 310 and 314 are used in food grade
applications and is probably the material of construction of the keg.
The Metallurgist John Palmer can clarify this.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:44:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Labelling Kegs
On the topic of keg labeling, Brian suggested:
> How about using some flexible magnetic material
> such as this:
> http://www.fridgedoor.com/5x8flexmagsh7.html
> I have a larger piece like this on my refrig that
> we use as a message board with a dry erase marker. >
Works great!
Only problem with that idea, Brian, is that most
Stainless Steel alloys, including those used for kegs,
are non-magnetic, so there's nothing for the sign to
stick to.
Kent Fletcher
Brewing in So Cal
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4676, 12/16/04
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