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HOMEBREW Digest #4670
HOMEBREW Digest #4670 Thu 09 December 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: high temp fermentation (Steven Parfitt)
Partial pressures and flat beer under pressure ("Dave Burley")
Acetaldehyde CAP ("Dave Burley")
Re: acetaldehyde beer (Randy Ricchi) ("Jonathan Westphal")
Re: Beer gas folly (Tidmarsh Major)
Beer Gas (james ray)
Acetaldehyde / High temp ferment and ruined beer / partial pressures (David Harsh)
Beer Gas Folly (Calvin Perilloux)
RE: What is starch content of a pLambic? (Raj B Apte)
White lab vials (Steve Ruch)
The Great Decoction Experiment (Denny Conn)
RE: Welded fittings ("Ronald La Borde")
Beer gas and pressures (Bill Velek)
wild cider yeast for beer? (Jeff Renner)
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Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 21:19:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: high temp fermentation
>Hi. I'm a newbie, so maybe this will sound
>like a stupid question, but I'd like some
>help.
>
>I made my first all-grain batch Sunday. It's
>a brown ale. I used Irish Ale yeast (with
>a starter solution) and my starting gravity
>was 1.045.
>
>When I pitched the yeast, my temp was around
>65. I wanted to go a little higher, so I
>left it in a warm place overnight, thinking
>that it would only change 3-5 degrees by
>the time I woke up to check on it. However,
>by morning, it was up to 78. (Don't really
>know how that happened, maybe exothermic processes
>from the yeast.)
>
>So I put it in a cooler, temp controlled place.
>I got it down to 72 by the afternoon, and to
>66 by the evening. I've kept it at a constant
>65 for the past two days.
...snip...
>My questions: Is the batch going to be ruined? Will
>it be all banana-flavored? Is there anything special
>I should do now?
...snip...
>Jeff
Relax. Worst case it will be a bit estery. You did not
use a yeast that is noted for banana, and did not
state you used a lot of wheat. Therefore it is
unlikely you will get a lot of banana or clove. Most
likely a fruity aroma and flavor that defies
descripiton.
Even at that it should be drinkable as long as you
used standard sanitzation procedures.
Cheers.
Steven
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:14:58 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Partial pressures and flat beer under pressure
Brewsters:
Dan K asks for some more discussion on partial pressures and such to better
understand why his Weissbier went flat sitting under beer gas.
Some more facts first.
1) nitrogen is not very soluble in water or beer
2) carbon dioxide is very soluble in beer relative to nitrogen.
So what does that mean? A lower pressure of carbon dioxide will cause the same
amount of carbon dioxide to dissolve as a much higher pressure of nitrogen
will cause nitrogen to dissolve to the same concentration. But a higher
pressure of nitrogen will not cause more carbon dioxide to dissolve. In a gas
mixture a higher total pressure will cause more of the carbon dioxide to
dissolve but only because the total pressure of carbon dioxide is higher.
In this <solubility> area, the gases constituting a mixture above a fluid <act
independently> of each other.
You may ask why. And I have to say the reason , for those skilled in
thermodynamics, is that the partial pressure in a gas relates to the activity
and at equilibrium the activity in the gas phase is equal the the activity (
related to concentration) in the fluid.
For those not skilled in thermodynamics, you'll just have to take my word
until you bone up on thermo. But the point is, as far as solubility goes, the
carbon dioxide doesn't know the nitrogen is there. But physically the total
pressure is still the partial pressure of the carbon dioxide plus the partial
pressure of the nitrogen.
Another way of saying the same thing is :How much of a gas <at equilibrium>
which dissolves in a fluid is dependent on the pressure of <just that gas>
above the fluid.
To be extreme to make a point, you could have a million pounds of pressure of
nitrogen above a fluid and it wouldn't affect the solubility of carbon dioxide
in the beer. What does affect how much carbon dioxide that is dissolved in the
beer is the pressure of the carbon dioxide above the fluid and that is all.
So, if you have, say, 20 lbs of total pressure and half of it is nitrogen and
the other half is carbon dioxide. The partial pressure of the carbon dioxide
is 10 psi. BUT let's say, for example only, 15 pounds pressure of Carbon
Dioxide is the equilibrium partial pressure of carbon dioxide above the beer
at the cooler's temperature. What is going to happen? The carbon dioxide in
the beer will come out of the beer until the partial pressure of the carbon
dioxide is 15 psi. What does that mean? The beer has lost carbonation to some
extent. Now serve some of that beer (and add more gas). Guess what? gas comes
out of the beer to bring the partial pressure to 15 psi of carbon dioxide and
the beer loses more dissolved carbon dioxide, etc. As you continue this and
withdraw more beer, you will continue to deplete the carbon dioxide in the
beer. That's why the beer went flat ( at least for a Weissbier) when using a
beer gas mix, but didn't when you pressured it with pure carbon dioxide.
Another way to think about this is - at a constant delivery pressure at the
tap, a beer with a higher desired carbonation requires a higher partial
pressure of carbon dioxide in the gas mix.
Hope that is now clear. Please go back and re-read my earlier comments in
light of this and if you have any questions please ask them.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:23:22 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Acetaldehyde CAP
Brewsters:
Sorry I punched in before I commented on Bob Barrett's CAP/Acetaldehyde
dilemma.
You could try 1 or 2 ppm metabisulfite added to the beer. This will complex
( or even react) with the acetaldehyde and remove it from the beer aroma. Do
a small amount on a single beer as a test. I would not go above 10 ppm. Give
it some time to react.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:43:38 -0400
From: "Jonathan Westphal" <Wesjo at reg2.health.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: acetaldehyde beer (Randy Ricchi)
In HBD #4669 Randy Ricci reports on acetaldehyde using S-23
>A couple years ago I decided to give dry yeast another try, and
brewed a lager with S23 dry
>lager yeast (Saflager). That beer tasted and smelled like green apple
>cider.
Randy, could you elaborate a bit on your recipe and brewing procedures
for this beer? I have been brewing lagers with S23 and S189 for about
two years now, and have never experienced this green apple character you
describe. Mine have turned out quite clean, the main difference between
the two being that S23 tends to produce a more pronounced malt profile
than S189. Lately, I have been using Mauribrew dried lager yeast, and
have been pleased with the results as well (though I do find it is quite
attenuative and I adjust my mash temperature accordingly). I have only
tried DCL's 34/70 once, and found it produced a bit too much fruitiness
for my taste. Now I admit I ferment at the upper end of the temperature
range, prior to lagering just above freezing for 4-6 weeks. and it did
occur to me that perhaps 34/70 was not very tolerant of higher
fermentation temperatures. OTOH, others in my brew club have reported
the same results with 34/70 even with a primary ferment of 52F. Anyone
else care to chime in with their experience with these yeasts?
Jonathan Westphal
Hampton NB Canada
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 8:15:34 -0500
From: Tidmarsh Major <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Beer gas folly
Dan k writes:
> - -----------
> { Me )
> I dont buy that for one second. why the pressure being exerted
> on the Beer and CO2 in solution is still in 16 psi regardlass of
> what the gas mix is. If CO2 came out of solution the pressure
> in the keg would increase.
> - ----------
Believe it or don't. The beer doesn't care ;-)
You've got the empirical evidence right in front of you.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure
http://www.chm.davidson.edu/ChemistryApplets/GasLaws/DaltonsLaw.html
for more info on partial pressure.
Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 06:33:19 -0800 (PST)
From: james ray <jnjnmiami at yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer Gas
I have used beer gas to push beer through very long
lines, about 100 ft. I think I used about 28 Lbs
preassure. This worked well for most beers however
those that moved slowly and were hooked to the beer
gas for a month would start to drift. Highly
carbonated beers like hefeweisen would become flat and
low carbonated beers would become over carbonated. I
think that was because I used one blend for all my
guest beers. This is why there are blends from 40% to
25%. For home use I would'nt mess with it unless I
wanted nitro beers on tap and then I would put highly
carbonated beer on the same gas.
Jamie Ray
Olde Auburn Alehouse
Auburn, AL
jamieray at oldeauburnalehouse.com
Montgomery Brewing Co.
Montgomery, AL
rjraybrewer at aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:37:24 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Acetaldehyde / High temp ferment and ruined beer / partial pressures
Hello-
Some comments....
> Acetaldehyde troubles
> In digest #4668, Bob Barrette laments his CAP with much acetaldehyde.
I do wonder just how high the apple flavor is - my personal experience
with flawed beers has been that non-beer geeks think that unusual
flavors in homebrew are quite acceptable, even at levels that bother
us. I agree with recent posters who have suggested you go ahead and
serve it admitting that you aren't really pleased with the beer.
- --------
> Jeffrey Will <Jeff.Will at valpo.edu> asks the age old question:
> My questions: Is the batch going to be ruined? Will it be
> all banana-flavored? Is there anything special I should do
> now?
You have to taste it and find out. My experience with typical ale
yeasts is that high temps get fruity and diacetyl-ly. Yeast will
sometimes reabsorb the diacetyl, but the fruitiness is there for the
duration. Go ahead and do a long secondary, but a taste after primary
will tell you if its really needed. The beer may well be out of style
and flawed from a standpoint of the style guidelines, but ruined? I
doubt it. Let your palate decide.
- ---------
Dan K (DakBrew at aol.com) asks about partial pressures in beer gas
The amount of CO2 (or any gas) in a liquid is a function of the partial
pressure of that gas in contact with that liquid. Under most pressure
ranges we see in brewing, it is linear - double the CO2 partial
pressure, you double the amount of carbonation (i.e. CO2 dissolved).
All gases dissolve to different extents - some are very soluble (like
CO2) and some are essentially insoluble (like N2).
So what does this mean?
If you have beer gas (that is 75% N2 and 25% CO2) at 10 psi, you will
have carbonation equivalent to 2.5 psi with pure CO2. The flow rate
out of the tap will be at a rate from the higher pressure. This gives
you lower carbonation, but still a good healthy flow out of the taps.
Why do bars with long tap lines use mixed gas? Long tap lines require
more pressure to push the beer out. If you maintain carbonation at
that high pressure, you'll be serving glasses of foam. Nitrogen
doesn't dissolve in the beer, its just along for the ride.
So, yes the beer will be under high pressure, but the level of
carbonation will be determined by the partial pressure of CO2 in the
gas:
p*=H [CO2]
where p* is partial pressure of CO2 (% CO2 times total pressure
divided by 100)
H is a constant of each gas at a given temperature
[CO2] is the concentration of the CO2 in the liquid
All of this assume ideal gas and ideal mixtures, which are of course,
incorrect assumptions, but close enough for this application. The
detailed thermodynamic description isn't this simple, but I've probably
already put enough people to sleep.
Total pressure determines flow rate out of the tap
Partial pressure of CO2 determines level of carbonation.
Calvin is correct - he was talking about carbonation as a function of
gas composition and pressure.
Dave Harsh Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League ChemEng PhD
(least important thing last!)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:22:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer Gas Folly
"Beer Gas Folly" says Dan K? Ha ha! Oh Dan, where did you
get YOUR technical degree from? Even just a quick search
on Google can show you the science behind partial pressures
and gas solubility in a fashion that any normal person with
a high school diploma can understand. Try Dalton's Law and
Henry's Law:
Dalton's Law
The pressure of an ideal gas in a mixture is equal to the
pressure it would exert if it occupied the same volume alone
at the same temperature. This is because ideal gas molecules
are so far apart that they don't interfere with each other
at all. Actual real-world gasses come very close to this ideal.
Henry's Law
The amount of any given gas that will dissolve in a liquid
at a given temperature is a function of the partial pressure
of the gas that is in contact with the liquid and the
solubility coefficient of the gas in the particular liquid.
[Dan]
>> You Lost me right there. Since when did pressure stop being
>> pressure? The is still the pressure in the keg is still what
>> ever the regulator states.
The total pressure is there, yes. The partial pressures
of each gas are each there as a fraction. Dalton's Law.
Then use Henry's Law for the rest of the argument.
>> Huh? I was always under the impression that beer gas was
>> used in bars with long runs from the coolers to the taps,
>> Regardless of the beer style.
Pull out your high school mathematics and run some of the
various serving pressure calculations. It might be the case
that for long runs, especially from a basement storage area,
beer gas *could* be appropriate for serving, since using pure
CO2 might in some cases lead to overcarbonation because the
partial CO2 pressure would be equal to the total pressure
needed to drive the beer. If I get bored later, maybe I'll
give an example of serving a low-carbo ale from a basement
storage tank.
And on a related note, I've heard various instances of some
bars actually using AIR to push beer (ugh!), since it's cheap,
and they can turn over the beer before oxidation hits badly.
In that case, they can use beer gas, CO2, helium, or just
about anything of they run through a keg fast enough.
But as was said in the complaint, "Hopefuly someone with some
technical background can prove one of us right". Someone
with more that just a bachelor degree in comp sci and petro
engineering. I knew those Physics, Fluid Mech, and PetE
courses were good for something, but maybe one of the PhD's
on the board can come forward to shout us down. ;-)
Calvin Perilloux
Middletown. Maryland, USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:31:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Raj B Apte <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: What is starch content of a pLambic?
Dave Reidel asks:
When you make a pLambic wort, you attempt to make it
dextrinous and with
some unconverted starch. My question is: how much starch?
A few details: 1.047 SG, pils/raw wheat grist, attempted
modified
turbid-mash but found I couldn't denature enzymes fast
enough to prevent
full-conversion, pitched XL pack of Wyeast 3278, beer is
currently 13 months
old, brett character is very good, but too dominant.
Dave, I've copied this to the plambic list as well. I have
never seen a number for starch in lambic wort. Is there a
way to measure it easily? I get lots of starch by adding
boiled adjunct (wheat or corn) at 74C or at mashout (85C).
Also, I have dumped pounds of starch into a 7gallon batch
and gotten some nice, stinky, sour ale. So don't be afraid.
I did it by mixing flour and water to make a dough. This I
washed in a bucket until I had a gluten (seitan) blob and a
bucket of starch water. I boiled the starch water until it
was almost paste and then dumped it into my fermenter (the
plambic was 3 months old).
However, the fact that you have a good Brett flavor means
that there was food (of some sort) in the wort. The
question is why you didn't get enough lactic acid. Perhaps
too much oxygen or something. Adding starch might just feed
the Brett, since its hard to get more lactic acid
production once the Brett has increased the acetic acid
beyond a certain point (acetic acid is quite toxic to
lactic bacteria).
I would start over and make a sour-mash or regular lambic
and hope to blend. I believe that plastic buckets let in
too much oxygen--are you using plastic or glass? Oxygen is
toxic to Pediococcus and generally supports acetic acid
production. If you are impatient, you might add lactic acid
directly as well.
Has anyone a sure-fire way to get ropiness? That would make
the perfect blending stock.
raj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:31:29 -0800
From: sdruch2 at webtv.net (Steve Ruch)
Subject: White lab vials
You should be able to use only half and save the rest.
I haven't done only half, but I have sanatized the vial and refilled it
from my starter and had no problem with the next batch.
Steve.
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to. I guess," The mans prayer.
Red Green
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:52:26 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: The Great Decoction Experiment
Hi all!
I'm in the process of organizing an experiment to try to determine the
flavor benefits of a decoction mash schedule vs. an infusion mash. I
realize this has been attempted before, but I'd like to narrow the
parameters to just determine if decoction mashes have a benefit to the
taste of the beer and if people are able to pick out a decocted beer. We
won't be getting into other methods to achieve the supposed benefits of
decoction or anything like that. It seems like the only way to collect
useful data is to narrow the scope of the quest. If any of you are
interested in finding out more and possibly participating, please check out
the webpage at www.hbd.org/cascade/decoction. Then contact me through the
email link on the page. I hope to publish the results in Zymurgy sometime
in the late spring/early summer.
----------------->Denny Conn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:43:14 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Welded fittings
>From: "Paul" <paul.mantovani at sbcglobal.net>
>
>I was wondering how others have accounted for this with welding, or
if it's
>something I
>should even worry about.Thanks,
Monty contemplates welding fittings for a thermometer, and one for a
sight tube.
Well, almost everyone uses welded fittings, but I wonder why. It seems
that homebrewers cannot brew without that bright arc! I use a SS keg
as a boiler, also as the HLT, but I have no welding. If you drill a
hole for your fitting, you can use a bulkhead fitting, one you buy, or
one you can make.
The thing about welding is that it is so un-changeable. If you later
decide to do something different, you are stuck with the welded
fitting. Or if you get a newer kettle, huh - how you gonna chop out
that fittin?
Not to discourage you, but why on earth would anyone want a
thermometer in the kettle? I'm sure someone will have a reason, but I
must say I've never needed one. If I want to know how the immersion
chiller is doing, I place a probe tip on the keg wall using a bunge
cord and a sponge as an insulator. If you have this thermometer
screwed into the kettle it's something to damage when you clean the
kettle. And that probe just waiting to snag your sleeve!
Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:17:30 -0600
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: Beer gas and pressures
In HBD #4669, Dan k (aka 'DakBrew at aol.com') disputed Calvin P's
explanation re beer going flat while pressurized with beer gas, and
said: "Hopefuly someone with some technical background can prove one of
us right."
Well, I don't have much technical knowledge, but from what little I can
recall, nothing that Calvin said sounds out of line to me. Lots of
scientific principles are surprising to those of us who are unfamiliar
with them. Take a look at this info:
http://www.mcdantim.com/beergas.htm
Hope that helps.
Cheers.
Bill Velek
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 20:59:04 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: wild cider yeast for beer?
Brewers
I've had an idea that came to me while I watched the airlock bubble
on my cider. (I don't like TV).
Has anyone ever fermented a beer using the yeast from a spontaneous
cider fermentation?
Some background. I've always wondered what we lost as brewers and
drinkers when we switched to single strain culture yeast. Of course,
one thing we lost was bad, infected beer. But mixed ale yeast
cultures were used for centuries and I suspect produced a greater
complexity when they worked.
For example, in an article about Duvel, Michael Jackson gives some
insight on McEwan's Scotch Ale of the early 20th century:
"The strain of yeast used derives from a culture taken from a
bottle-conditioned McEwan's Scotch Ale between the two world wars.
This culture had between 10 and 20 strains, which were "taken apart"
by the great Belgian brewing scientist Jean De Clerck (who himself
studied at Leuven in the 1920 and was an Emeritus Professor there in
the 1970s)."
I wonder what that McEwan's tasted like. A lot different from the
modern stuff, I'll bet.
Old British ales underwent a true secondary fermentation in the
bottle due to yeast that "kicked in" after the primary fermentation
was done. This was Brettanomyces and perhaps other yeasts.
I decided to make a cider this year - I hadn't made one in probably
20 years, and I've learned a lot since then. For one thing,
champagne yeast makes a mighty dry cider, and I was hoping for
something a little less austere, and maybe more complex. I remember
that a few years back, Dan McConnell of the Yeast Culture Kit Co.
isolated several yeasts from spontaneously fermented cider. I think
he, and maybe Ken Schramm, thought that these yeasts made better
cider than culture yeasts available. Dan may have even sold one or
more of these on slant. But my recollection was that it made a less
severely dry, more complex cider.
So when I made my cider, I got five gallons of ordinary,
unpasteurized sweet cider from our local cider mill. No special
blend, and I didn't take the pH. Its SG was 1.044, a little low, so
I added 1.5 lbs of local honey to take it to 1.057. I sulfited it
with 8 Campden tablets to knock out spoilage bacteria with the
understanding that it would merely stun the natural yeast.
(Procedure recommended in the book _Cider_ by Annie Proulx (yes, the
author of _Shipping News_) and Lew Nichols.)
Nothing happened for five days until I realized that the SO2 was
trapped in the headspace of the stoppered carboy and keeping the
yeasts stunned, so I removed the stopper with airlock and
fermentation started the next day. It's been bubbling along nicely
for about three weeks now, a bit slower now but still steady. It
smells sulfurous, but I've had that experience with beer yeasts and
am not worried. No sign of sourness or nasty smells. In fact, aside
from the sulfur, it smells pretty nice.
SO.... , here is what I'm thinking. I wonder what kind of beer this
mix of critters would produce. I'm thinking I could take a few
ounces of the cider and inoculate a starter, and then pitch this into
wort.
But I'm too chicken to try this with an all grain batch. Maybe with
just a gallon and pitch culture yeast in the rest. Or maybe make an
extract beer for the first time in a long time.
I don't want to end up with lambic-like sourness, but cider doesn't
turn sour (unless it's exposed to air and it turns to vinegar).
Has anyone every tried this? Any thoughts?
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4670, 12/09/04
*************************************
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