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HOMEBREW Digest #4620
HOMEBREW Digest #4620 Tue 05 October 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Priming ("Dave Draper")
providence beer scene ("jim")
Fortnight of Yeast, 2004-The October Surprise! ("Rob Moline")
Re: warm lager fermentations ("Jonathan Westphal")
DME Priming and False Bottoms. ("Dan Listermann")
Sweetened cider, Refractive Index/Hydrometer, warm lager fermentation ("Dave Burley")
RE: Formula for estimating O.G. with refractometer & hydrometer (ERROR IN EARLIER POST) ("Bill Pierce")
Solder Flux (Chuck Doucette)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 21:19:30 -0600
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Priming
Dear Friends,
Fred Johnson, in response to some questions about priming
with DME vs. corn sugar, makes some good points about
measuring priming sugar by weight rather than volume. Many
moons ago, Mark Hibberd and I published an article on
priming bottled beers in Brewing Techniques (anybody else
REALLY miss BT???) that incorporated the very same
principle. You can find it on my beer page, at the link below--
it's near the bottom of the page.
Cheers,
Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
...yeast contain the mechanism of their own destruction.
---Charlie Scandrett
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 00:05:30 -0400
From: "jim" <jimswms at cox.net>
Subject: providence beer scene
Hi Sean,
well, not to sound too negative, but, there's not much good beer in these
parts. Two very average brewpubs. If you missed them, you wouldn't be
missing much. If you're in town the weekend of the 23rd Oct. is the
International Beer Fest. downtown. Other than that, sorry to say, but,
there's not much here. It's a nice city with some great restaurants, but,
all in all, the beer scene is alot like the mexican food. Man, I miss
California!
Jim
Providence, RI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 23:33:44 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Fortnight of Yeast, 2004-The October Surprise!
Fortnight of Yeast, 2004
10.11.04 - 10.22.04
Dr. Tobias Fischborn-Dr. Forbes Waldrop
I am pleased to announce that Dr.'s Tobias Fischborn and
Forbes Waldrop have graciously agreed to host a 2 week period of answering
yeast related questions from the members of the HBD, commencing October
11th,
2004 through October 22nd, 2004..
Dr.'s Fischborn and Waldrop, certainly among the most generous and
prestigious of the yeast world's experts may be joined by others in
answering your questions.
Questions may be submitted to the HBD, 10.11.04 up to the
posts/questions that appear in the HBD 10.22.04. Dr.'s Fischborn and
Waldrop will answer any and all questions at their discretion...
Standards to be followed.....
1. Questions MUST be sent to the HBD, submitted to post at hbd.org ,
and
submitted with "Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004" in the subject line, with or
without further subject heading.
2. Questions shall be accepted for response via HBD, 10.11.04 through
10.22.04. Dr.'s Fischborn/Waldrop have graciously allowed that follow-up
may be required post the cut-off point, and they will deal with that on an
as needed basis.
3. Reprinting of the Questions and Answers may be published by
Lallemand/HBD and Dr.'s Fischborn/Waldrop, at their discretion, in any
media. Attribution of name is granted by the questioner, without further
publication of any e-mail addresses.
Brewers ...we are fortunate to have Dr.Tobias Fischborn and Dr. Forbes
Waldrop add their decades of expertise to what we at the HBD exist
for..."Brewers Helping Brewers!"
Cheers!
Jethro Gump
Rob Moline
Lallemand
515-282-2739 brewery
515-450-0243 cell
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 09:04:47 -0300
From: "Jonathan Westphal" <Wesjo at reg2.health.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: warm lager fermentations
FWIW, I routinely ferment my lagers fairly warm (the ambient temperature
of my drafty old house is generally 60-64F), mainly because that way I
can continuously keep 5 kegs lagering in my lagering unit (chest freezer
with Johnson temperature controller). I have had very good results with
DCL S-23 and S-189 - I find both of these strains produce very little
fruitiness at these temperatures, and clean up nicely after a month of
lagering at near freezing.
JayDubya
Hampton, NB, Canada
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:59:08 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com>
Subject: DME Priming and False Bottoms.
I don't recommend priming with DME. First I deeply doubt that there are any
real advantages to be gained by doing it. It is such a small portion of the
fermentables that there is little it can contribute beyond CO2. The
disadvantages are a reduced level of carbonation control due to the
variability of the extract's fermentability ( 55% to 85% ) and the yeast's
ability to ferment it, and DME's reputation for producing rings around the
bottle's neck.
I mash in a 26 gallon Igloo Keg Kooler. I use a plastic false bottom that
has 3/32 holes staggered on 5/32 centers. I can count on an extraction
rate of 30 points per pound per gallon into the fermenter using this system.
My scale is inspected by the county twice a year and my hydrometer is
graduated in .0005 specific gravity units. I use a graduated stick to
measure kettle volume and can hit three half barrels of wort just about
exactly every time.
Dan Listermann
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:25:06 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Sweetened cider, Refractive Index/Hydrometer, warm lager fermentation
Brewsters:
Patrick asks for clarification of my comments on sweetening and kegging cider.
>If one were to force carbonate 5 gallons of cider and keg, rather than
bottle it, AND use fermentable sweeteners, would keeping it cold in the
fridge stop the fermentation enough, or would >one still need to use sulfite?
In my refrigerator fresh cider will still ferment. So I wouldn't trust cold
alone to do it. In my recommendation I suggested BOTH sulfite and potassium
sorbate for a reason. Sulfite reduces the activity of existing yeast and
sorbate prevents the growth of additional yeast. Low temperature will reduce
most yeast activity, but do you really want to take up your refrigerator space
as a storage area?
>If so, how much?
Also, what's a good starting point for how much sweetener to add (am
considering molasses)? Same question if you use non-fermentable sweeteners
>such as Splenda, which doesn't bother me at all.
I suggest you start at 2% sugar which will not be excessively sweet and will
reduce the dryness of even tart cider. With Splenda, the <volume> of Splenda
is the approximate substitute for a similar <volume> of white sugar, but about
half or less of the weight.
You can do as I do and make up a range of sweetenesses by starting with 4% and
then dilution to various sweetnesses to get to the right level. Start with the
least sweet in your tasting.
I suggest you do not use molasses or dark sugar as this taste will dominate.
At low levels of sweetness it will take on a metallic taste. As always, I
suggest you run a trial mix and then taste your pick the next day before you
make up the whole thing.
- -----------------------
Bill, My compliments on your mathematical persistence. I am not sure if you
somehow got to an answer using basics or the results are fudged by curve
fitting equations based on actual measurements ( nothing wrong with that in
the real world)
Please read my earlier comments on this. During fermentation, alcohol is
generated which has its own refractive index and at the same time changes the
specific gravity of the beer because it hydrogen bonds to the water. A mixture
of alcohol and water does not have the additive volume of the components.
Unless Louis' equation and your other equations takes this into account it
won't work, yet I suspect it will match Promash's numbers.
The question is how does it compare with real measurements?
- ------------------
Rowan, I thought your question was how could you ferment at a higher
temperature than a classic Pils Yeast. The Czech Pils yeast Wyeast 2278 is the
ultimate which I use when making pilsners. If you have a refrigerator to
lager 5 gallons of brew as your comments indicate, why not do as I do and use
a temperature controller ( see Williams' Brewing on the 'net) to get to the
actual temperature that is optimal?
I ferment in a 5 gallon plastic fermeter in the temperature controlled freezer
and lager in my secondary. I would expect the cold storage of 2278 at
refrigerator temperatures would produce a fine result and better than the
Kolsch, since the Kolsch would not likely clean up the aldehydes and sulfur
compounds at this temperature.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:17:05 -0400
From: "Bill Pierce" <BillPierce at aol.com>
Subject: RE: Formula for estimating O.G. with refractometer & hydrometer (ERROR IN EARLIER POST)
There was an error in a post I made yesterday regarding the formula for
estimating the O.G. of a finished beer when hydrometer and refractometer
readings are available. The correct formula should be:
OG = (100*((194.5935 + (129.8*SG) + ((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((410.8815*(1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 790.8732))) + (2.0665*(1017.5596 - (277.4*SG) +
((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) + (0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((937.8135*(1.33302 +
(0.001427193*R) + (0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 1805.1228)))))) / (100 +
(1.0665*(1017.5596 - (277.4*SG) + ((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((937.8135*(1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 1805.1228)))))
Again, OG is in degrees Plato, SG is the hydrometer reading in specific
gravity, and R is the refractometer reading in Brix.
I also corrected the formula in the body of the original post below so that
there are no errors for anyone who copies it.
Thanks to Thomas Eibner for pointing out the error. My apologies for any
confusion.
- -- Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Burlington, Ontario
BillPierce(at)aol.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Pierce [mailto:BillPierce at aol.com]
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 5:16 PM
To: post at hbd.org
Subject: RE: Formula for estimating O.G. with refractometer & hydrometer
(Caution: this is geeky and involves math.)
In HBD #4607 (Sept. 20, 2004), I posted the following:
***********
<paste>
I'm doing a little experimenting with a refractometer and a hydrometer and
some commercial beers. In the January/February 2001 Zymurgy Louis Bonham
provides a formula for calculating the specific gravity of a beer when the
O.G. is known and a refractometer measurement is taken:
SG = 1.001843 - (0.002318474*OG) - (0.000007775*OG^2) - (0.000000034*OG^3)
+ (0.00574*R) + (0.00003344*R^2) + (0.000000086*R^3)
SG is expressed as specific gravity, OG in degrees Plato and R in Brix.
He also provides a simplified version of the above formula: SG = (1.53*R)
- (0.59*OG)
In this equation both SG and OG are in degrees Plato.
This implies that it's also possible to estimate the O.G. of a beer when you
have both a refractometer reading and a hydrometer reading. Using the
simplified version of the formula and solving for O.G., the formula is :
OG = (2.593*R) - (1.695*SG)
However, the results using the simplified version don't seem to be quite as
accurate.
I'm wondering if any of you beer math geeks have the more complex formula
above solved for O.G., or software that can solve it.
<end paste>
**************
I received a couple of direct replies, as well as comments that this is
already accomplished in ProMash. Someone also sent me an Excel spreadsheet
with some complex Visual Basic macros that emulate the curve fitting
features of MathCAD. I confess I never did get the spreadsheet to function
correctly; the results were always garbage for me.
What I found interesting was that no one attempted to solve the complex
cubic equation for OG, not even my sister-in-law who has a Ph.D. in math and
teaches it at the university level.
However, I persevered and continued my musings undaunted. I found that much
of the information for Louis Bonham's Zymurgy article comes from his post in
HBD #2923: http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2923.html#2923-13
In this post he provides formulas for alcohol by weight and real extract
based on refractometer and hydrometer readings:
ABW = 1017.5596 - (277.4*SG) + (RI*((937.8135*RI) - 1805.1228))
RE = 194.5935 + (129.8*SG) + (RI*((410.8815*RI) - 790.8732))
It should be noted that the formula for ABW in Bonham's original post (which
is repeated verbatim elsewhere) is in error. It is correct as stated above.
The rightmost operator should be a minus sign (for subtraction) rather than
a plus sign. This error was the cause of some frustration until I
discovered it.
As Bonham mentioned, the refractometer value in the formulas is in RI
(refractive index) units rather than the more common Brix readings of most
brewing refractometers. At the time of the post he had only tables for
converting Brix to RI, but a formula has since been provided (by Domenick
Venezia and others):
RI = 1.33302 + (0.001427193*Brix) + (0.000005791157*Brix^2)
The final formula of interest is for O.G. when the real extract and alcohol
by weight are known (this is from DeClerck):
OG (degrees Plato) = (100*(RE + (2.0665*ABW))) / (100 + (1.0665*ABW))
Combining these formulas, it's possible to solve for the estimated O.G. when
the refractometer and hydrometer readings of a beer are known. The formula
is:
OG = (100*((194.5935 + (129.8*SG) + ((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((410.8815*(1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 790.8732))) + (2.0665*(1017.5596 - (277.4*SG) +
((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) + (0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((937.8135*(1.33302 +
(0.001427193*R) + (0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 1805.1228)))))) / (100 +
(1.0665*(1017.5596 - (277.4*SG) + ((1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))*((937.8135*(1.33302 + (0.001427193*R) +
(0.000005791157*(R^2)))) - 1805.1228)))))
OG is in degrees Plato, SG is the hydrometer reading in specific gravity and
R is the refractometer reading in Brix.
Obviously this formula is very complex and practical only when using a
computer. A third order fit of the cubic equation at the beginning of this
post solved for O.G. would be considerably easier to use. However, the
results of the formula seem quite accurate. When I compare them to the
refractometer utilities in ProMash, they agree to three significant digits;
I ascribe any differences to rounding errors in the various conversions.
No doubt this is of interest only to hardcore beer math geeks, and even they
are probably satisfied using ProMash for the task. But inquiring minds
occasionally want to know the source of the numbers.
Brew on!
- -- Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Burlington, Ontario
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:50:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chuck Doucette <cdoucette61 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Solder Flux
Oh, Noble and Wise HBDers,
And anyone else who might care to answer.
After a year and a half off of brewing I am getting
ready for a come-back. I intend to jump right into
all-grain brewing this time, since I have a couple of
years of extract brewing under my belt.
During my couple of years of lurking here, I have seen
several HBDers recommend using "food grade flux" when
soldering manifolds or other copper assemblies for use
in brewing equipment.
My question, where can I get food grade flux? I have
the regular lead free antimony based flux for use in
soldering water pipe, but have never seen a flux
marked as food grade. Any suggestions would be greatly
appreciated.
TIA.
Chuck Doucette
O'Fallon, Illinois
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4620, 10/05/04
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