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HOMEBREW Digest #4616
HOMEBREW Digest #4616 Thu 30 September 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings ("Craig S. Cottingham")
Separating Trub ("William Erskine")
Storing a Co2 tank in the refrigerator ("William Erskine")
Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings (Christopher Farley)
Re:sweetening dry cider ("Grant")
co2 Tanks in the fridge ("Lau, William T")
Re: HSA with March pump (Mike_Andrews)
re: HSA and March pump (Ted Hull)
RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings (Steven Parfitt)
RE: Long mash Time (Steven Parfitt)
co2 tank inside the fridge (Jim Bermingham)
10 Hour Mash ("Eric R. Theiner")
HSA and a pump ("Jay Spies")
RE: sweetening dry cider ("Dave Thompson")
Cider apples, chiller,SG/RI,holeless beer fridge ("Dave Burley")
throttle valve for march pump / lengthy mash time ("Janie Curry")
RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809; Electronic SG measurement; co2 tank inside the fridge ("Ronald La Borde")
HSA and throttling a pump ("Mike Sharp")
Re: HSA with a pump (Joe Gibbens)
Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings (Daniel Chisholm)
Re: co2 tank inside the fridge ("Randy Scott")
RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 (homebrewdigest)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:51:09 -0500
From: "Craig S. Cottingham" <craig at cottingham.net>
Subject: Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings
On Sep 28, 2004, at 23:44, <homebrewdigest at myxware.com> wrote:
> I have been having problems with hot side aeration with my March 809
> pump. My kettle has a very short 3/8" male NPT pipe welded into it.
> I have
> a 3/8" brass ball valve on this pipe, sealed with Teflon tape (which I
> have
> brewed 4 or 5 times with, the Teflon tape that is). To the valve I
> have a
> 3/8" NPT to 3/8" barb fitting. I seal the threads with Teflon tape
> before
> each use. I have a hose clamp on the tubing connected to the barbed
> fitting. When I run the pump and attempt to restrict the flow of the
> liquid
> (wort) by adjusting the valve it begins to bubble (HST) at a certain
> point.
I'm going to take a wild guess that your pump is cavitating. I'm going
to take an even wilder guess that back pressure will solve your
problem.
Your arrangement looks something like this, yes?
kettle --> valve --> pump --> chiller --> fermenter
Try restricting the flow on the outlet side of the pump instead of the
inlet side. Instead of pulling a slight vacuum on the inlet side (which
can cause cavitation), the pump will produce excess pressure on the
outlet side, and the back pressure should keep the pump from
cavitating.
Install a valve between the pump and the chiller or (better in my
opinion) on the outlet side of the chiller. If you have any flexible
tubing in either of those two places, you can use a clamp or a pair of
pliers as a quickie fix (and proof-of-concept).
Note: I don't have a pump anywhere in my brewery, so I can't say for
certain that this will work. I've got a good feeling about it, though.
- --
Craig S. Cottingham
craig at cottingham.net
OpenPGP key available from:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x7977F79C
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:26:30 -0400
From: "William Erskine" <werskin at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Separating Trub
Hello all,
Over the next few weeks, I'll be writing to the digest for your opinions
several homebrew topics. Over the past year, I've switched to all-grain
brewing, I now brew with liquid yeast and a starter, and I recently
purchased a mill to crush the malt fresh, right before brewing. As you
may have guessed, my beer has improved leaps and bounds. It is fresh-
tasting, it has no aftertastes or major faults. I'm very satisfied with my
recent results.
I'm looking to sharpen up my techniques even more over the next few
months, so I'll be writing in with a series of questions on a variety of
techniques and procedures. As with anything, opinions vary, but I
regard the Digest as an excellent place to learn.
My first question deals with separating the trub from the wort after the
boil
is complete. My current setup is a 9.5 gallon stainless pot in which I
make 5-6 gallon batches. I use an immersion chiller, and for right now,
that will not be changing. I am able to bring the temp of the wort down
to 75 F in 15 minutes or so. I am always amazed at how dramatic the
cold break is when I begin the chilling process. The only problem with
this is that to increase the efficiency of the chilling process, I move the
chiller around in the kettle. This greatly reduces the time required to
chill the wort. I imagine that the process would take forever if I were
to leave the copper coils motionless. The result of the increased
efficiency in chilling leaves me with a 75 degree wort with the hop
particulate (I use pellets right now) and cold break all mixed together.
My current method of separation is to let the wort settle. On Sundays
this method is fairly efficient. I have plenty of time after the boil to
let it
sit and settle. My first two batches I let sit for 3-4 hours. I racked it
into
the carboy leaving about 2 quarts of wort behind, and having transferred
only a little bit of trub along with it. When I brew during the weekdays,
I begin much later in the day, often around 7:00. So by the time I've
boiled and chilled the wort and begun to let it settle, it's around 11:00 or
later. Three to four hours settling time isn't very appealing at that
time.
My last two brews had settling times of about 1 hour or so, and the wort
had settled significantly less. After transferring to the carboy, I had
left
behind a good 6 quarts of wort. This left me short, and I had to top up
with water.
Question #1: Just how important is separating the trub from the wort
after boiling? For my first few batches, I had transferred very clear wort
to the carboy. Note: I use an auto-siphon and carefully hold it while it
transfers. For the next two batches I had included a bit more trub
and still wasted much more wort than I had wanted to. Approximately
how much wort is an average amount to leave behind. A gallon and a half
seems like a lot. What happens if you transfer a good chunk of it into the
fermenter, not all but let's say at least half? Is the only downside that
it
makes yeast reuse more difficult?
I can tell you I'm pretty tempted to make my last batch as close to the
same as possible and chuck it all in just to see for myself, but what are
your
thoughts on the subject?
Question #2 Is there a better way to separate the trub than the "let it
settle
method"? I've heard whirl-pooling is less effective when using hop pellets.
One person recommended that I use a women's nylon as a filter. Is a nylon
fine enough to filter the majority of the particulate?
I'm really looking forward to your thoughts on this issue.
Sincerely,
William Erskine
London, Ontario
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:04:38 -0400
From: "William Erskine" <werskin at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Storing a Co2 tank in the refrigerator
CRESENZI writes asking if keeping your co2 tank in the fridge
is okay. As far as I know, this is perfectly fine. I've been doing
this for a while. If you are using a dual gauge reg., (one with a
gauge for the pressure inside the co2 tank as well as the beer keg,)
it will read much lower even though there is plenty of co2. At room
temp my co2 gauge reads about 800 PSI, at 4 C it reads about
500-525 psi. This is a well known phenomenon. If your reg. is a
single gauge, (only showing keg psi) you won't notice any difference.
Otherwise, there is no problem.
Cheers,
William Erskine
London, Ontario
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:44:07 -0500
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings
Michael describes his aeration problems with his March 809 pump. I think
the problem is that you are restricting the input side of the pump,
which is a bad idea. This forms cavities in the wort ("cavitation"),
and you will get nasty, turbulent flow. I'm not sure if this is really
aerating your wort or not, but it's ultimately not very good for the
pump. Try putting a 1/2" ball valve on the outlet of the pump. This will
allow you to control flow rates without cavitation, etc.
- --
Christopher Farley
www.northernbrewer.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:00:19 +1000
From: "Grant" <gstott at primus.com.au>
Subject: Re:sweetening dry cider
Randy Ricchi asked: How would Splenda be for sweetening cider?
The short answer is quite good.
I say this because I did this to a Perry 31/2 years ago after getting some
bad advice from someone who was supposed to be experienced in making country
wines etc.
I was told what I had done would make for an extremely dry Perry so I made a
fundamental mistake. I decided to sweeten it before tasting. The end result
was pretty good as confirmed much later by an experienced wine judge. Though
he did not approve of my methods.
The other important thing to note is that even when the last bottles were
opened at around 18 months in the bottle it had not overcarbonated. My wife
still asks when I am going to make another sweet batch. Maybe next year I
should earn some beer bullets.
Grant Stott
[9906, 260] AR (statute miles) or [15942.2, 260] AR [Km]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:48:05 -0400
From: "Lau, William T" <william.lau at astrazeneca.com>
Subject: co2 Tanks in the fridge
I have had two fridges set up with taps for about 3 years. One has the co2
tank inside and the other has the co2 tank on the outside. I have not seen
any differences in performance or associated any problems with the tank on
the inside.
Regards,
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:53:14 -0400
From: Mike_Andrews at vfc.com
Subject: Re: HSA with March pump
Michael, if the ball valve is on the inlet side of the pump, move it to the
outlet side. Sounds like your pulling air into the connection between the
ball valve and pump.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 05:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ted Hull <theartfuldudger at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: HSA and March pump
Michael- what you're seeing in your setup is likely
not air, especially since a trial with cold water
didn't yield the same result. When you close the valve
down on the suction side of the pump, you're likely
dropping the pressure in the line low enough to create
steam/vapor from your hot wort.
FWIW, you typically shouldn't operate a centrifugal
pump by throttling the suction side. The same action,
on the trailing edge of the impeller and at a
microscopic scale, is called cavitation. When this
happens, tiny bubbles form and then collapse back on
themselves. The very high localized pressure actually
eats away (erodes) the impeller. And it'll sound like
you're pumping marbles.
Throttle the pump discharge instead. And let the
finished beer be your guide as to whether you have
HSA.
Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 05:36:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings
Michael has two questions, or three:
(1) Place a ball valve on the output of the pump. You
are forcing cavitation by restricting the input rather
than the output. This is a common problem with these
pumps when pumping hot wort.
(2) Water is thinner than sticky hot wort, thus it
pumps easier. Also, you probably used cold water. Hot
water would be more likely to do the same thing.
(3) Do not use a lamp dimmer with the march pump. The
dimmer is the wrong type of control for these pumps.
There are variable frequency motor controllers
($$$)that are designed to be used with them, but it is
cheaper and easier just to restrict the flow at the
output.
Good luck
Steven
>Hello,
>I have been having problems with hot side aeration
> with my March 809 pump. My kettle has a very short
> 3/8" male NPT pipe welded into it. I have a 3/8"
> brass ball valve on this pipe, sealed with Teflon
> tape (which I have brewed 4 or 5 times with, the
> Teflon tape that is).
...snip...
> When I
> run the pump and attempt to restrict the flow of the
> liquid (wort) by adjusting the valve it begins to
> bubble (HST) at a certain point.
>The problem is that I need there to be less flow
> since my chiller can't cool it rapidly enough.
...snip...
>I was able no move the water with no aeration.
...snip...
> I am thinking I may use a light dimmer (rheostat)
> with my pump the next time I brew (this weekend).
>Any ideas, suggesting, and help is much appreciated.
>Thanks.
>Best regards,
>Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 05:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Long mash Time
I routienly do over night mashes.
I've posted about it previously, but in a nutshell:
I set a mash in a 5 gallon Gott cooler on Friday
night. I also weigh my grain for the main mash, clean
and sanitize my brewery, and get everything ready.
On Saturday morning, I roll the brewery out in the
driveway, set the Gott cooler on top and start
sparging into the boiler. While sparging that, I grind
my main grist, I add my hot water to my main (half
barrel) mash tun, and stir in the grain. While the
main mash is mashing, I boil the first beer.
I was concerned about the mash in the Gott cooler
dropping too low over night (mine gets down to 122F in
the winter when the garage is cool). But, I have not
seen any degradation in head retention, body, etc.I
suspect that the long rest at 152 denertures the lower
temp enzymes and prevents them from damaging the beer.
YMMV.
Steven
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:44:26 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <JBHAM6843 at netscape.net>
Subject: co2 tank inside the fridge
CRESENZI ask about keeping the co2 tank inside the fridge. If you have
room for the tank, there is no problem. I have kept mine inside since I
started kegging about 10 years ago.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 8:55:44 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude at tds.net>
Subject: 10 Hour Mash
Steve Arnold brings up the subject topic and asks if
anyone else has done it.
I have, with good results. There was a brief period of
time when I had my, ah, stuff together and could quickly
hammer out a mash on Friday night. I'd start around 154 -
156 F(reason for high-ish temp below) and let it go 'till
Saturday morning. I'd start the runoff around 7 while
feeding the baby and have a boil going by 10 - 11 at the
latest. I generally had good results, although this is
too long ago to remember what styles I was into at the
time.
I had heard from some other folks that longer mashes can
result in excess thinning of the wort, which is why I was
more firmly in alpha-amylase range than beta. It seems to
me that the betas would be denatured before the temp
dropped more heavily into their range and out of
reasonable activity for the alphas.... Do you guys get
what I'm saying? I'm thinking that the thinning of
the wort/body of the beer is because of extended time in
the 140 - 150 range, if it is indeed an effect. Maybe I
was worried about nothing.
But my point is that I had good results, and if I can ever
get my life organized again, I use the overnight mash to
shorten my brewday.
Rick Theiner
P.S. Comments on enzyme activity welcome. (Like you needed
that extra nudge to write a page or two.<g>)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:52:56 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: HSA and a pump
Michael asks if there's a way to get the barb connection on the kettle to
stop sucking air into the lines when he restricts the flow...
Sounds to me like you're throttling the kettle valve. Not the best idea.
Always throttle the outflow of the pump, not the inflow. Do yourself a
favor and attach a ball valve on the out side of the pump and use that to
throttle the flow. That way, there'll be positive pressure on the kettle
valve instead of negative pressure. Throttling the inflow can also cause
the pump to cavitate, which will stop the flow, and may damage the pump.
Plus, it sounds screechy and annoying.
By throttling the outflow and keeping the kettle valve full open, you can
slow the flow to a trickle with no worries. Brew on!
Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:28:55 -0400
From: "Dave Thompson" <thompsdc at mcmaster.ca>
Subject: RE: sweetening dry cider
On Wed Sept 28th, Randy asked:
"How would Splenda be for sweetening cider?"
While I've never sweetened a cider before, it seems like a waste to me
to work so hard to make a great cider only to poison it with artificial
sweetener.
I'd recommend a product called Stevia. It's a natural sweetener
produced by the stevia plant, and tastes much more like sugar (with 0
calories of course) than aspartame or sucralose (both artificial). It
can be found at most health food stores, although it's only labeled as a
"daily supplement" (due to a lawsuit brought on by Nutrasweet giant
Monsanto).
Perhaps other homebrewers out there have tried this product for
sweetening? If you have your feedback would be greatly appreciated!
- --Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:47:55 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Cider apples, chiller,SG/RI,holeless beer fridge
Brewsters,
On the subject of adding sweetness to cider, keeving and stopping the
fermentation with sulfites and the kinds of apples in cider.
Keeving is primitive and is difficult to implement reliably . Don't waste your
time.
It is true that the kinds of apples are the key to making good drinking hard
cider ( In the US, "cider" often means fresh pressed apple juice) . Most
eating and cooking apples are not in the high acid or bitterness cartegory.
Getting a bitttersweet apple is important in making hard cider as this
bitterness fills up the holes in most apples taste and provides a better mouth
feel. Of course, the kinds of apples you use also affect the taste. Apples
related to the Cox pippin provide most of the juice for British ciders as I
recall ( been a long time) but having a mix of sweet, acidic ( "sharp") and
bittersweet apples is the key to making good hard cider. If you are interested
in growing your own, check out apple nurseries which specifically sell these
British and French old timey cider apples.
As far a stopping a fermentation with sulfite reliably, don't do it, as it
will take so much you will taste the sulfite. You can chill the cider and
stop the fermentation, clarify it and rack it to give you some natural
sweetness, but if you choose to bottle it or add fermentable sweetener and
bottle it, use about 30-50 ppm of sulfite and potassium sorbate per mfg
directions to prevent refermentation. If you do this, you must artificially
carbonate it if you do want a carbonated cider.
- ----------------------
Michael, I wonder if you are restricting the flow to your chiller on the
downside of the pump ( you should be) if you are getting bubbles. Never
starve your pump.
Use a longer chiller and pre-cool the water through another chiller in an ice
bath. Reduce your water needs by recircualting this chilling water.
- --------------------
Jeff, I really don't have time to get involved in this discussion at the
moment, but a quick reading of Louis' comments doesn't really address my
point.
I suggest a little study with alcohol, water and sugar like I commented on
will point this out. Basic point is there are too many variables for the
number of measurements being made, so many mixtures of these three can give
the same answer.
This is confounded by the changing RI due to the sugar/alcohol changes and by
the fact that the density of the solution is changing due to more than the
loss of sugar. Both sugar and alcohol hydrogen bond to the water in different
manners. The existence of a fixed component of unfermentables in beer further
confuses the picture.
- ---------------------
Cresenzi, You can do as I do to prevent drilling holes in your fridge and
that is to carbonate the keg, put it in the fridge, open the fridge door to
sample the keg repeatedly as needed, until you have to recharge the keg by
attaching the gas line.
I usually give the keg a shot of CO2 after each session. No holes are
required. Do this until you feel comfortable with the keg idea and then decide
how you want to proceed with a more permanent setup.
If you are a regular visitor you can leave the cobrahead faucet attached to
the keg and in the fridge always at the ready.
At the end of a session I usually use a Carbonater (R)? attachment backwards
to its intended use, fastened to a small bottle of water to push out any beer
in the detached cobrahead line, rinse with water and then blow the water out
of the line with the bottle partially filled with air. Return the cobrahead to
the fridge.
- ---------------------
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:51:53 +0000
From: "Janie Curry" <houndandcalico at hotmail.com>
Subject: throttle valve for march pump / lengthy mash time
Michael asks about slowing the flow from his March pump. This past winter,
I found myself with a lot of time on my hands while deployed in Qatar and
away from home, so I designed a new brewing system for myself with the help
of several HBD lurkers. I'm not an engineer, so I really appreciated all
the help. It's hard to sit in front of a computer screen and order valves
and such. I need to be able to pick these sorts of things up and fondle
them. Over the years, I've made excellent beer from a very simple system
using a 7 gallon pot and a cylindrical gott cooler and easymasher screen. I
got tired of all the lifting and scooping, so I decided to upgrade and
incorporate a pump.
Anyway, to throttle the pump output from my pump, I ordered a bronze
butterfly valve from McMaster-Carr, part number 9798 K81. It's designed to
throtle (unlike a ball valve). One word of caution. I stripped the plastic
threads on my pump housing while trying to thread this thing on using teflon
tape. I was able to order another plastic pump housing for $18 through a
local dealer here in Boise that sells dairy equipment. I never had to use
the new plastic housing because I managed to recover the threads on the
stripped one by carefull threading a ball valve onto the damaged threads.
After "repairing" the threads, I then successfully threaded the butterfly
valve (using less teflon tape) onto the original pump housing.
Instead of using barbed fittings for hose attachments, I went with aluminum
cam and groove hose couplings (#51415 K308, K508, K408) along with Norprene
tubing #52035 K32. The tubing is not transparent, so I can't evaluate the
bubbling problem that Michael is concerned about possibly resulting in HSA.
Perhaps it would be less with a throttle valve designed to throttle?
I've only had the chance to brew with my new setup (which also includes 2
kegs from SABCO) once, and it was one of those hurried Saturdays that Steve
Arnold mentions. I definitely pikced the wrong day to set up a brand new
system , use a pump for the first time, and brew a recipe for a honeymoon
couple who were due to visit in less than a month.
The cam and groove couplings work great, but are very stiff and will require
a break in period. I also managed to get a stuck mash on the SABCO false
bottom. That was quite a delima, especially when faced with SWMBO and a
strict time schedule for Saturday evening....very uggly scene. I resulted
in putting my lips on the ball valve, opening it and blowing back through
the siphon tube....dangerous...but it worked like a charm except I thing I
got some channeling through the grain bed. Hard to tell because I batch
sparged and couldn't see through 8 gallons of sparged wort. The beer, a
belgin white, is not the best I've brewed by any means. Much drier than
commercial versions such as Blue Moon. I also forgott to put the orange
zest into the boil (after carefully grating it from 2 fresh oranges), and
had to make an orange zest tea after returning home that evening.
So Steve, how does your beer taste after a 10 hour mash? How is the body?
I suspect very dry. Guess you could overcome that delima by adding dextrin
malt.
Todd in Idaho
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:30:25 -0500
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809; Electronic SG measurement; co2 tank inside the fridge
>From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
>
>I have been having problems with hot side aeration with my March 809
>pump.Ron
Recently I have been using pumps of the Peristaltic type. I plan to
soon have up some pictures of the setup and methods. Once you go this
route, you will never look back!
- --------------------------
>From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
>Subject: Electronic SG measurement
>
>The only means of electronic SG measurement in common use (that I am
>aware of anyway) is the vibrating U tube.=====
Hey, I just received the new Cole Palmer catalog, and I was reading
about a new type of liquid level sensor using a led and prism with a
detector. The principle of operation is that the refractive index
changes when a liquid covers the prism instead of air. The change is
detected to trigger the level sensor output.
I am thinking that something similar could be constructed that could
measure the actual refractive index and allow the measurement and
conversion to SG. It might be worth a try.
- ------------------------------
>From: CRESENZI <cresenzi at sbcglobal.net>
>
>....Any feedback would be nice
It's OK to put it in the fridge, but you really do not need to. I top
up the keg with CO2 after 5 or 6 pints are drawn off. If you leave the
pressure on at all times, you may find that you are wasting a lot of
CO2 because of a small leak.
If you want to use the tank on the outside of the fridge, you can
drill a very small hole to pass the smallest tubing you can find (like
the copper tubing on thermostat bulbs), then you can connect this to
the regulator and inside the fridge connect to the keg quick
connector.
Ron
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:52:53 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: HSA and throttling a pump
Michael posts about throttling his pump:
You should throttle the discharge of the pump, not the inlet. However, you
can get fan speed controls that will work on permanant split capacitor
motors and shaded pole motors. Your march is probably a PSC. Don't use a
light dimmer--use a fan speed control, and make sure the motor is PSC or
shaded pole.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:38:51 -0500
From: Joe Gibbens <jgibbens at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HSA with a pump
Michael asks about HSA with his March pump..
First a question. It sounds like you are restricting your flow before
the pump inlet. Is this correct?
This is just a guess, but its possible that you are seeing steam
bubbles, and not air bubbles. If your pump is being restricted before
the inlet, there will be a relatively low pressure between the valve
and pump when the pump is running. The lower pressure will in turn
lower the boiling temperature of the wort, and could cause steam
bubble formation. Your indication that this is not happening with
cold water is another indicator that its not really air. I would add
another valve on the outlet side of the pump and control the flow
there.
Putting a dimmer on a motor sounds like a great way to.....make you
need to buy a new pump :( I don't know what a dimmer would do to an
induction motor, but with a regular ac motor, undervoltage can
overheat it. Can an EE please jump in here to explain back voltage,
ect?
Hope this helps more than it confuses.
Joe Gibbens
Hopedale, IL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:44:41 -0300
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc at nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Re: Hot Side Aeration with March 809 and Barbed Brass NPT Fitings
Michael,
It sounds to me like you are restricting your pump's flow by restricting
the flow of hot wort into the pump (the pump's "suction side").
What is happening to you is that the nearly-boiling-hot wort is boiling
when it enters the lower pressure area downstream of your
partially-closed kettle valve. Those bubbles you are seeing are steam,
not air.
The good news is you are not damaging your wort by oxidizing it.
The bad news is that steam bubbles forming in your pump (called
"cavitation") can damage your pump (the collapsing bubbles create such
intense local pressure spikes that it can erode a pit in the material -
e.g. boat propellers can be worn out in this manner). That's probably
not happening to you right now, you probably have so many steam bubbles
in the wort that the pump is barely able to move anything.
The solution is simple - the pump's flow rate should be controlled by a
valve on the pump's _outlet_ side, and the flow to the pump's inlet
should be unrestricted (open your kettle valve fully).
FWIW when pumping near-boiling-hot liquids, your pump should be as low
as possible to the ground (and your kettle as high as is reasonably
possible), so that the additional pressure due to the height of the
kettle over the pump will forestall the onset of cavitation (which can
damage the impeller). If your pump sounds like it is sucking in some
air, or if it sounds like there's sand in it, then it may be
cavitating. You should reduce the flow rate (throttle the output) until
the pump sounds the same as it does when pumping cold water.
- --
- Daniel
Fredericton, NB Canada
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:51:53 -0500
From: "Randy Scott" <lists at rscott.us>
Subject: Re: co2 tank inside the fridge
> Now I heard
> both you can and cannot keep the co2 tank in with the
> keg. I am force carbonating the beer so I had to put
> it in the fridge now so I did and so far I don't see
> any problems. Is there any good reason why I can not
> leave the co2 tank in the fridge that is not apparent
> to me yet? Any feedback would be nice.
I kept my CO2 tank in the fridge for a month or so, but I got concerned
about the amount of condensation that was building up on the tank/regulator
every time I opened the door, so I took it out. I haven't gotten around to
drilling the appropriate holes, so for the time being I'm just keeping the
CO2 disconnected, and charging the kegs whenever the need it by momentarily
reconnecting the CO2. I think my concerns were justified, because now one
of my gauges is "sticky" (a little surface rust somewhere I assume), and my
regulator makes a funny noise that it didn't use to make (although it seems
to still work fine). I think long-term storage in the fridge would be
life-shortening for the regulator.
YMMV; note that my fridge is in the un-airconditioned garage, in Central
Texas where the humidity tends to stay fairly high. I don't think I would
be near as concerned about condensation if I still lived in New Mexico.
ras
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:27:30 -0400
From: <homebrewdigest at myxware.com>
Subject: RE: Hot Side Aeration with March 809
Hello everyone,
First off I would like to thank everyone who helped me out by
responding to my post (there were 14 of you thus far). I truly would have
been puzzled by this problem for a while. Although it is simple to resolve
I could not have done it without everyone. Thanks.
The general consensus for solving the problem was to add a valve on
the outflow of the pump, therefore restricting the flow of the wort into the
CF chiller. I should NOT use a light dimmer since it is not the proper
device to use for this application as I once thought. Also what I thought
were air bubbles were actually caused by steam, thus no HST occurred
(great!). The negative pressure caused by the pump, because the flow was
being restricted before the liquid entered the pump, caused cavitation,
which significantly reduces the life span of the pump due to extreme
pressure changes in the pump.
I picked up the proper valve today and will test everything out next
time I brew (this Saturday).
Thanks again everyone for the useful information.
Michael
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4616, 09/30/04
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