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HOMEBREW Digest #4637
HOMEBREW Digest #4637 Tue 26 October 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Old yeast recovery ("Dave Burley")
Galvanized pipe and natural gas ("Peed, John")
More questions re yeast nutrient (Bill Velek)
BURP's Fourth Spirit of Belgium Conference and Homebrew Competiti (Cannon Tom R NSSC)
Bottles and Labels (Tony Brown)
Recirculation Experiments (Joshua Meekhof)
End of FOY-2004 ("Rob Moline")
FOY- 2004 -Response- location of invertase action? /Philosophy and communication ("Rob Moline")
FOY-2004-Response-Zinc ("Rob Moline")
Blood perssure lowering drink ("Dave Burley")
Insulating Kegs ("Elmer \"Goose\" Steingass")
tun insulation...why talk science? ("Marc Sedam")
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 10:42:46 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Old yeast recovery
Brewsters:
Stuart Grant asks if his old hefeweisen stored under cold boiled water in a
fridge is any good.
You will find many examples in these HBD archives of successful revival of old
yeasts and I can testify to being able to do it routinely, esp in past years
when my travel schedule occupied more of my life than being home..
I'd say chances are it is OK if you were careful in the sample preparation,
but I'd give it an acid wash with 1% tartartic acid solution and three rinses
with cool boiled water to pH strip neutrality and then start it in a stirred
starter.
If it is any help, the Scandinavians used this basic method of storing yeast
at room temperature under distilled water in days when mechanical cooling was
not availabe and S. carlsbergensis kept for about 30 years this way was still
found to be viable.
It is important in any of this kind of work to rinse off all the beer from
the yeast by using multiple rinses with cool boiled water before storing it,
to prevent any bacterial activity.
Taste the starter "beer" to assure yourself you have a good yeast free from
off tastes before pitching it..
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 11:50:34 -0400
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: Galvanized pipe and natural gas
In a post to the Oct 24 Digest someone said, "There is generally no problem
using galvanized steel pipe for gas piping. " A local gas company employee
told me that galvanized pipe would flake and that the flakes would plug up
gas orifices. When they installed a new pipe run for me, they used black
iron pipe. Incidentally, I use BBB's 200000 BTU natural gas burner rings
and I think they're terrific. They really put out the heat and it beats the
heck out of buying propane!
John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 13:29:12 -0500
From: Bill Velek <billvelek at alltel.net>
Subject: More questions re yeast nutrient
I know I'm always a day late and a dollar short, but I have another
yeast question that perhaps someone else can answer since FOY has ended.
I read on rec.crafts.brewing that "diammonia phosphate and urea" is a
yeast nutrient, and the post also mentioned a "yeast energizer",
speculating that it might just be vitamins. What is the difference
between a yeast "nutrient" and an "energizer"?
Thanks.
Bill Velek
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:33:54 -0400
From: Cannon Tom R NSSC <CannonTR at NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: BURP's Fourth Spirit of Belgium Conference and Homebrew Competiti
Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) is pleased to announce that we will
be holding our fourth Spirit of Belgium Conference and Homebrew Competition
on January 14-16, 2005 in Arlington, Virginia.
Information on the conference can be found at the Spirit of Belgium web page
http://www.burp.org/events/sob/2005/index/html
The Homebrew Competition will be held Saturday morning, January 15.
Categories to be judged include all Belgian Styles in the 1999 guidelines.
Those styles are...
18 A DUBBEL
18 B TRIPLE
18 C STRONG GOLDEN
18 D STRONG DARK
19 A PALE ALE
19 B WIT
19 D SAISON
19 E SPECIALTY ALE
20 A STRAIGHT LAMBIC
20 B GUEUZE LAMBIC
20 C FRUIT LAMBIC
20 D OUD BRUIN
20 E FLANDERS RED ALE.
Biere de Garde (19C) is not eligible as it is a French style.
Entries are due by Saturday, 8 January. More information on the competition
can be found at http://www.burp.org/events/sob/2005/competition/htm
It is expected that requests to judge at this competition will be high, so
we reserve the right to give first judging priority to BJCP judges who
register for the entire Spirit of Belgium Event. If you are planning on
attending, and would like to judge in the homebrew competition contact me at
cannon at burp.org
If you have any questions about the homebrew competition, please contact the
competition organizer, Andy Anderson at andy at burp.org
Looking forward to seeing you and drinking your beer at Spirit of Belgium
2005.
Tom Cannon
2005 Spirit of Belgium
Homebrew Competition
Judge Coordinator
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:39:18 -0500
From: Tony Brown <speleobopper at gmail.com>
Subject: Bottles and Labels
Does anyone know where I can get some twelve or sixteen ounce
label-less glass bottles for a reasonable price. I can buy them at
the local Great Fermentations but they are $9.00 a case. I think they
should cost about half that much.
Otherwise, which beers should I be drinking that have labels that use
water soluable glue for easy removal (and are re-cappable of course)?
Then, where should I order my labels from that are economical and have
water soluable glue?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 23:05:58 -0400
From: Joshua Meekhof <jmeekhof at gmail.com>
Subject: Recirculation Experiments
My latest beer brewing fascination has revolved around HERMS and RIMS
systems. I've read as much as I can digest to this point, and have
begun experimenting with some of the concepts. Not being ready to
invest the cash necessary to properly make one of these systems, I
started manually approximating a RIMS system.
I am doing this to determine for my self if it's worth the expense for
_ME_. So far I've only done two batches this way. The process is as
follows:
1) Mash in at regular temperature
2) Slowly begin to draw off wort into 4 quart bucket
3) Sprinkle wort back into the mash tun
About every third trip through the "system" I look at my mash
temperature, and I find that I must heat the containers wort up to
maintain my mash temperatures.
First the obvious observation:
* RIMS/HERMS systems are often implemented in order to automate
processes, this involves more manual processing.
But, the other advantages include:
* Clearing the wort well before sparging.
* Faster enzyme action due to movement of the wort.
* Even heat distribution throughout the mash.
What I am attempting to determine is do these systems create a better
beer? Are beers brewed with this method more consistent? It the cost
worthwhile for _ME_ if the only advantage that I find is the
automation?
Thoughts, comments, and similar experiences are welcomed.
Josh Meekhof
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:10:18 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: End of FOY-2004
End of FOY-2004
Folks,
While the official end of the Fortnight of Yeast-2004 was 10.22.04,
there have been several submissions made, both publicly on HBD, and directly
to me.
Despite the variant natures of these requests, Dr.s Fischborn and
Waldrop have more than generously agreed to honour them, with a deadline of
any question up to midnight 10.25.04 CST.
I also apologize for my personal absence from a full time keyboard
while I was out of town over the last weekend.
Thanks for your participation in FOY-2004!
Cheers!
Gump
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:46:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: FOY- 2004 -Response- location of invertase action? /Philosophy and communication
Fortnight Of Yeast, 2004 - location of invertase action? /Philosophy and
communication
I combine this post with another question to
Tobias and Forbes. (The fortnight question at the bottom.)
- --------------------------------------------------
I feel a bit like a nucleation site and responsible for trigging the
bursts of parallell/serial issues lately. I also confess beeing
a yeast philospher :)
The harder questions you ask, the more important does
language, terminology and the proper construction of the
question become.
IMO, in real life more often than not, many questions are indeed
fuzzy. While a computer would simply reject it as syntax error,
a human philosopher will not do so, that is too easy.
Once a question is properly posed and technically well defined
answering it is often principally a matter of "computing" and thus
from a philosophers point of view - trivial. I find the learning
*process* itself intruguing. Sometimes I find the mechanism
of concluding something more interesting that then conclusion
itself. Facts are like matter, while the "why" is the essence of life.
My experience is that many real problems, and almost *all* of
the most profound ones, are fuzzy questions, and does require
a "philosophical aspect" to solve them. You can not (currently)
ask a computer something like, at what point of complexity
does matter turn into life? It is a fuzzy question, yet I find it
quite relevant and most humans does get the basic quest,
but we lack logic to deal with it. This is were a computer fails,
but a philosopher will invent new logic as needed. IMO one
of the differences between a computing device and real
intelligence is the capabiilty to invent new logic, and not turn
into syntax error halts.
What I am trying to say is that some of this discussions look to
me a bit like we are computers here. I think everyone agree
the basic (fuzzy) question, we want to know how yeast behaves.
Look at something like this (*just in principle*, beware for tyupos)
x = the entire set of variables, yeast, wort and fermentor
(except time!)
dglucose/dt = - fg(x)*glucose*yeast_active +
+ 0.5 * [ - fs1(x)*sucrose*invertase_wort -
fs2(x)*sucrose*invertase_surfacebound ]
dfructose/dt = - ff(x)*fructose*yeast_active +
+ 0.5 * [ - fs1(x)*sucrose*invertase_wort -
fs2(x)*sucrose*invertase_surfacebound ]
dsucrose/dt = - fs1(x)*sucrose*invertase_wort
- fs2(x)*sucrose*invertase_surfacebound
dmaltose/dt = - fm(x)*maltose*yeast_active
dmaltotriose/dt = - fmt(x)*maltotriose*yeast_active
note that the equations account for the active yeast.
The dormant yeast does not consume wort sugars.
So once the yeast go dormant, the remaining sugars
will be left as residuals.
f are different regulations. Let's assume some typical
enzyme kinetics (michaelis-menten) this might be
something like
fg(x) = ag(x) / { glucose + kg(x) }
ff(x) = af(x) / { fructose + kf(x) }
..etc
where ag() and kg() are further regulations to find out, so using
knowledge, I will keep expanding thse regualtors, until I reach a
level where it's reasonable to think thet are constants, then these
will be my model parameters, and of course each parameters
should be intristic to yeast, wort or fermentor. Ther must not be
parameters that depend on everything.
The problem would be to find these regulations. The model will
be *crowded* with these regulation functions, and they must
all satisfy balancing of energy, redox, carbon, nitrogen etc.
So training the model is to keep tweaking the regulation
*functions* and also to tune in the parameters.
On thing I failed to find is if the invertase enzymes are cellbound
or expelled freely into wort, or both??? I know that in theory
there are both options but for brewing yeast I don't know
which is relevant? I think I asked this question before on here
long time ago but I got no comments.
Worst case I have to account for both, like above. Any ideas?
- -------------> Fortnight question to Tobias and Forbes.
(As speculated above)
Where is the location of action of invertase splitting sucrose? I
wonder if it is all expelled into the wort, or if there is also
relevant activity on the cell surface suface bound inverase? I
remember reading some cells do have cellbound sucrose
enzymes, what is that the case for S.C?
/Fredrik
Hello again,
Almost all invertase activity is located in the periplasm. This is a
thin cell wall-associated region external to the plasma membrane and
internal to the cell wall. The invertase is unable to permeate the cell
wall. Sucrose can permeate the cell wall but can not cross the cell
membrane. It is hydrolyzed in the periplasm into glucose and fructose
which then can cross the cell membrane into the cell. (Walker, G.: Yeast
Physiology and Biotechnology, Wiley & Sons, Chichester, 1998, p 21)
Regards
Forbes & Tobias
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:55:36 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: FOY-2004-Response-Zinc
FOY-2004-Response-Zinc
Rob,
Thanks for this opportunity. Sadly, the HBD no longer accepts posts
from my email server and I'm too lazy to go get a hotmail account just to
reply
to HBD posts. Anyway...
The questions I have are:
1) What is are the commercially available options available to the
average
homebrewer for adding zinc to yeast and of those, which are more
available,
affordable, and unlikely to affect flavor of the beer due to either the
formulation or additives?
2) What is the best way and time to add zinc? In an aerated starter?
during the boil? during yeast pitching? other?
Regards,
Lou Heavner
Lou,
Most of the commercially available nutrients contain some zinc mainly in
mineral form as ZnSO4 or ZnCl2. Adding mineral zinc directly, which is
probably the cheapest way of adding zinc, is difficult for home brewers
because of the small amounts. Addition of 0.2-0.3 ppm zinc (0.4-0.6 mg/L
ZnCl2 or 0.5-0.7 mg/L ZnSO4) is not easy to measure without a proper
scale.
We have developed a mineral enriched yeast called Servomyces which adds
about 0.25-0.3 ppm zinc to the wort if used in the recommended manner.
Studies with various universities and breweries have shown that zinc
from Servomyces is better available to yeast than just mineral zinc.
This product is available in capsules now, which contain the right
amount for 20-22 L of wort.
For most commercial nutrients it is recommended to add it to the kettle
10-15 minutes before the end of the boil. This way the nutrient is
dissolved properly and you have a sterilization effect. Mineral zinc can
be added together with the yeast.
Regards
Forbes & Tobias
PS from Rob-Pull your finger out and get some other account-Isn't HBD worth
it?
- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 10/19/2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:01:27 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Blood perssure lowering drink
Brewsters:
Yakault, a Japanese company, will be introducing a dairy based drink which
lowers blood pressure and promotes sleep when taken on a daily basis.
The company, famous for its daily dose probiotic drink, has developed a drink
containing gamma amino butyric acid (GABA), produced under a patented method
from a mixed culture of Lactobacillus casei Shirota and lactococcus lactis,
reported the Japan Corporate News Network.
GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter, is sometimes taken to enhance sleep
quality. It is also used increasingly in bodybuilding supplements for its
effect on growth hormone levels.
Don't know about the body building aspects ( except out in front) but haven't
they heard of good hoppy beer in Japan?
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Elmer \"Goose\" Steingass" <w8av at yahoo.com>
Subject: Insulating Kegs
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:55:53 -0400
From: "Mike Eyre" <meyre at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Insulating Keg Kettles
Hey all.. looking for info on good ways to insulate a
keg mash kettle.
Did some searching on the matter and found
surprisingly little info out
there. Saw some designs with a rather elaborate
outside skeleton of
various materials, but that bulks up the keg a lot and
they're heavy
enough for me to lift off the second rack of my
gravity feed design. Saw
some others with some sort of jacket.. curious if this
is the best
approach for light weight and easy access to the tun
when needed.. what
are you all doing?
Mike
I am just catching up on some back HBD issues and
thought I would post a response to Mike's question.
I use heating duct insulation to insulate my kegs.
This comes in 25 foot rolls, if I remember correctly.
It consists of a sponge type material with one side
covered with a thin sheet of aluminum foil. The
sponge side has glue on it so it sticks to the keg.
I applied two layers of the stuff to my mash tun and
one layer to the HLT. It does a very good job of
holding in the heat even in my barn in the colder
months and is relatively inexpensive. You can find
the stuff at Lowe's of Home Depot.
=====
Goose
Wooster, OH
Amateur Radio Station W8AV
143.3,134.7 Apparent Rennarian
Mmmmmmmm, Beer! Wooo Hooo.........Homer Simpson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:28:02 -0400
From: "Marc Sedam" <alechemist at bellsouth.net>
Subject: tun insulation...why talk science?
Mike Eyre asks about tun insulation...
Mike, for years I've been using the same shiny, bubble wrap that's used to
insulate hot water heaters. Any hardware mega-store will have it. I also
bought some aluminum flashing tape (probably right next to the bubble wrap
on the shelf) and taped off the end of the insulation off that's closer to
the bottom of the kettle, since I direct fire my mashtun. Also taped mine
into a closed cylindrical sheath I can slide on and off the kettle. I've
been using the same, now grimy, insulation for about three years. Keeps my
kettle within 4 degrees over the course of an hour in VERY cold weather. If
I'm brewing a bigger batch (10 gal or more) and the ambient temps are
reasonable (like 70F) the temps of the mash barely move. All told, this
might cost you $15 for a 10 year supply of insulation.
Regarding the science thread...
Keeping in mind that I like the science (I've been called a brewing 'bowtie'
before, a moniker I relish), the immediate value to the average brewer of
the maltose, sucrose/fructose, or maltotriose discussion is pretty mild.
That being said, I truly appreciate Fredrik's attempt to understand what's
going on in fermentation and I would guess that (personal vitriol that hits
the HBD aside) nuggets of useful information could pop out. I admit that I
gloss over the calculus and stick with the discussion, but that's a factor
of having taken calculus a combined FIVE times in HS and college and still
don't understand it enough to get more than a B-. And I'm perpetually
impressed by the very smart people that both homebrew and participate on
this board. Were it not for people seeking out the answers to the "what's
happening in there" question, we would be ordering sticks of "godisgood"
from White Labs and Wyeast instead of style-appropriate strains. ;-)
Beers!
Marc
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4637, 10/26/04
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