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HOMEBREW Digest #4584
HOMEBREW Digest #4584 Thu 19 August 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
About racking when there's floating fruit and/or hops ("Steve Smith")
re: Steam Injection Into Mash Tun -- Anyone Use This? ("-S")
Re: Cutting tops off kegs (Nate & Brenda Wahl)
RE: Therminator (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
RE: Keg Conversion (Steven Parfitt)
RE: Cutting tops out of kegs (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
re: Therminator (Michael Owings)
Wort Chilling in Hot Climates (was: Therminator) (Kevin Wagner)
Re: Therminator (Tidmarsh Major)
New Mashing Ideas (from internet post) (cboyer)
loss of judge, mentor and good friend ("Walsh, Susan")
Listen to your yeast (Tidmarsh Major)
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:26:45 -0600
From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com>
Subject: About racking when there's floating fruit and/or hops
Thank you all for suggestions (on HBD and by private e-mail) on how to rack
beer out of a primary fermenter that contained massive amounts of floating
choke cherries and leaf hops. I actually was going to cancel my post,
realizing that I needed to rack before I would get an answer... I didn't
cancel because the automagical reply with the cancel # never came back to
me. Nonetheless, it is a timely topic since the fruits of summer are here,
begging the question of how they might taste in beer!
Anyway, because of the large amount of floating fruit, I used a sanitized
middle size (9" diameter) steel mesh strainer (the kind you rinse vegetables
in) to carefully strain out much of the floating fruit and hops. As you
might expect, there was still loads of hops suspended in the beer. Several
times I tried to rack, which resulted in continued plugging of the racking
cane, and I got tired of rinsing out my mouth and lips with Maker's Mark
(which is much better sipped slowly) to lessen the chance of contamination
by mouth when restarting the siphon. So, instead I partially submerged the
strainer with the racking cane pressed against it and that filtered out the
debris, which worked well enough.
I was surprised to find that instead of ending up with six gallons in the
secondary as I planned, I got just under five. You see, having pastuerized
the fruit in the wort, there was only so much room to top up my 7.5 gallon
primary fermenter with water. Well, the beer at the first racking stage
tasted terrific (won't know until later if it's infected), so I determined
that instead of the Choke Cherry Stout I planned, I now have a Choke Cherry
Imperial Stout!
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I particularly liked the idea of
inserting the racking cane inside a larger diameter screen-tipped tube,
which allows free flow of liquid to the racking cane tip. However, as
others replied, there is also simplicity and functionality by merely bulbing
the rack cane tip with sanitized screening, or even with a sanitized hop
bag. As always, the best result comes from what least disturbs the beer!
Tutti-Frutti (awww Rudy),
Steve Smith
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:09:41 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Steam Injection Into Mash Tun -- Anyone Use This?
When the autoresponder doesn't autorespond ... post, post again.
Charles Boyer writes about some HBD posts by the long lost Charlie
Scandrett of Brisbane,
>Way back in HBD 1905, Charlie Scandrett proposed a system to inject steam
More like 1995. Charlie is one of the folks I learned a lot from back then
... the
attitude that walls are meant to be scaled and journals meant to be read
more
than any details.
>What I am wondering is this -- granted, steam is a dangerous thing if
>mishandled, but the payoff for this -- better heating, no scorching,
>simplicity, etc.,
Yes ! As I stated in my article on mashing systems (Zymurgy Mar/Apr 03),
the fundamental problem with heat transfer into the mash or boiler is
localized
heating which produces hi temps and caramelization then eventually
scorching.
The origin of this thought (in my universe) traces directly back to a
Charlie
Scandrett HBD post on caramelization in 1993 or 1994 I think - well worth a
read.
Scorch only happens when local temps are well above the boiling point
(~480F).
This is only a minor problem w/ the boil, as convection of the wort prevents
temp
extremes In the mash things are much different .... RIMS type heating and
direct tun heating (esp through thin, poor heat conducting stainless) are
potentially
problematic. Both steam injection and HERMS (which recirculates hot water
or
wort) avoid even the possibility of scorch. Hot water infusion also avoids
scorching
potential. Inthat article I tried to cover the major mashing system designs
and the
heating methods from a fundamental point o view.
One minor downside of steam injection is that it continuously dilutes the
mash
with the condensed steam. It's perhaps only a quart or two for very hot
(~150C)
low pressure steam, but it's several times that for ~100C steam ...
considerable.
Also the heat transfer from flame to canner to steam to mash is fairly
inefficient,
but one big inefficiency of flame to pot is present in all direct heating
systems.
I will make one extension to C.Boyer's comments. Steam heating
systems can be simple or they can be safe, but not both. The average
HBer certainly doesn't recognize the huge heat transfer that 130C steam
will bring to bear when it condenses on your 25C skin ... far worse than
boiling
water scalds. If you've ever had the experience of a split or slipped bit
of tubing sending wort across the floor and making a terrible mess ...
imagine
that a similar accident with low pressure steam can cause scarring or even
blindness in an instant.
In addition, low or ambient pressure steam vessels will quickly transform
themselves into hi-pressure vessels and then shrapnel bombs if their outlets
become clogged.
Yes all of these objections can be overcome ... only use approved pressure
vessels with properly desiged relief valves, and carry steam in fixed piping
which
is double jacketed or wrapped for safety. Suddenly simple & cheap is out
of
the picture.
Steam injection is a terrific heating method, but I have considerable
reservations
for safety reasons. It certainly could be done safely, but I personally
feel that
HERMS and variants are a better approach. I went over my reasons in a fair
bit of detail in the article. HERMS {with recirulating wort} initially
seems
complicated due to the manifolds, pumps and plumbing, but the fact is that
ALL mash heating systems REQUIRE some form of mechanical heat
distribution (stirrers or pumps) and you'll need a manifold of some sort to
sparge & lauter.
>Problem is, I can find nary a bite on designs, practices, etc.,
>other than the two articles I mentioned above.
My *recollection* is that Charlie Scandrett used a 20L pressure canner as
his steam
source. He somehow attached a valve and some flex copper tubing as his
injection
steam via. Charlie recommended overweighting the pressure regulator weight
by a
significant amount. I think Charlie is quite bright and wrote a load of
great posts,
but drilling holes in a pressure canner then increasing the pressure by
overweighting
the relief mechanism detract from that position.
Anyone know what Charlie Scandrett is up to ?
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 06:07:54 -0400
From: Nate & Brenda Wahl <cruiser at coastalwave.net>
Subject: Re: Cutting tops off kegs
Interestingly, a plastic spray paint can cap fits exactly over the
valve body on a Sanke; put a bolt/washer/nut assembly through its top,
centered as a pivot, and use it to swing around a piece of metal bent
just right, hose-clamped to your grinder/cutter of choice. Instant
circle cutter!
A buddy of mine liked it so well that he welded up an adjustable
pivoting assembly based on the idea, and he has cut dozens of perfectly
round holes with it over the years. But he now uses a plasma cutter
instead of a grinder. Sweet!
Oh, use a new cutoff wheel, or at least one that you only use on SS.
Cheers,
Nate Wahl aka Oogie Wa Wa
Oak Harbor, OH, Now where'd that sticky go with the coordinates?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:11:22 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Therminator
Braam,
If your problem is due to the high temperature of your water during the
summer, the Therminator(tm) won't help. It is still just a counterflow
chiller, and the water temp is the limiting factor. One thing you could
try is to pre-chill your cooling water by running it thru an ice-water
bath before going to your immersion chiller.
Make another immersion type coil and set it in a bucket of ice-water.
After your normal immersion chilling process drops your temp down to 80
or 90 or 100F, change the setup to run your chilling water thru this new
coil before it goes to your immersion chiller. This will drop the temp
of the cooling water, which in turn will allow you to get your wort temp
even lower. Don't try to chill the water from the start, as all you will
do is waste ice. You should be able to get your wort down to 65-70F
using this procedure.
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Parfitt <thegimp98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Keg Conversion
Check the 3rd picture down for a view of three kegs.
One already cut, one being cut, and one with the
previous cut lid setting on top of it.
http://thegimp.8k.com/photo3.html
I used an air powered die grinder with a 4" cutting
disk. It takes about an hour and a half to cut out one
lid.
The die grinder is held in a pivot that drops into the
opening for the valve assembly in the keg. It allows
me to cut a true circle and can be adjusted from 8" to
12" diameter.
Steven
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:36:55 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones at eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Cutting tops out of kegs
I've used both a sawzall and an air powered cutoff tool to cut tops out
of kegs. The sawzall is much quicker, but leaves quite a rough edge that
needs some work. The cutoff tool (with 3" cutoff blades) worked great,
but took about 30 minutes. It left a perfect circle that only needed a
light touchup with emery cloth. Use eye & ear protection, and fill the
keg about half way with water to stabilize it and help deaden the noise.
I made a little wooden jig to hold the cutoff tool that rotates on the
center post of the sanke keg. I adjusted the jig to set the proper
diameter and worked it around the keg, making several passes rather than
trying to cut all the way thru on the first pass. You can see the result
at http://hbd.org/franklin/public_html/members/sj/kettle_mods.html, the
next to last picture.
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers (http://hbd.org/franklin)
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] AR
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:50:33 -0500
From: Michael Owings <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Therminator
In hbd 4583 Bramm Greyling wrote:
==================================
> I live in a particularly hot climate and neither
> counterflow or immersion chiller work good enough.
> I have built numerous different chillers but I can
> still only brew in winter.
> Do you think this will help ? Any comments ?
> My biggest problem is that the water temperature is
> too high during summer.
I also brew in a very warm climate in the summer (southern Louisiana US)
and regularly cool down to the low 40s, even in the dead of summer with
a large immersion chiller (around 55 feet of 1/2 inch ID copper tubing).
The idea is to start with tap water from the hose as the initial
cooling water, but then I switch to pumping ice water from a tub into
the cooler coils. I use a cheap immersible pump (around $50 USD from
WalMart -- I think they get cheaper). The tub is a cheap plastic tub
filed with ice and water. The water exiting the cooler is simply
directed back into the tub of ice-water and recirculated. Simple, and
significantly cheaper than the Therminator.
Hope that helps -- m
- --
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:24:35 -0700
From: Kevin Wagner <kevin.wagner at watchmark.com>
Subject: Wort Chilling in Hot Climates (was: Therminator)
Braam writes:
> I live in a particularly hot climate and neither
> counterflow or immersion chiller work good enough.
> I have built numerous different chillers but I can
> still only brew in winter.
Since you already have an IC and a CFC, use the IC to pre-chill the
cooling water ahead of the CFC!
Put your IC in a bucket and fill it with ice, add water to the bucket
until it just covers the ice and stir in half a cup of rock-salt (the
salt will allow the water in the bucket to drop below 0 deg C without
freezing). Now run your tap water through the IC and into the CFC. Run
your wort through the CFC as normal. Stir the bucket of ice a couple of
times during use.
-K
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:49:21 -0400
From: Tidmarsh Major <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Therminator
Braam writes:
>
> My biggest problem is that the water temperature is
> too high during summer.
>
I have a similar problem here in Alabama. I use an immersion chiller on
the water inlet hose of my wort chiller. In other words, I run my
cooling water through a copper coil immersed in a bucket of ice before
it flows into my wort chiller.
Seems like others have reported success circulating ice water through
an immersion chiller with a pump or gravity feed.
Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: cboyer at ausoleil.org
Subject: New Mashing Ideas (from internet post)
Hello all,
Below is a post of a message that was posted on an internet discussion
board that's generating some debate where-ever it finds it's way. I would
be interested in reading comments from John Palmer, Steve and anyone else
regarding this. Mine are at the end of the post.
The original discussion is here:
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1252
Quote:
"I'm probably going to set off alot of debate with this posting, but this
is current brewing science knowledge that I gained through my recent
training by Weihenstephan (Freising, Germany & world's oldest brewer
founded in 1096!) and UC Davis, two of the most respected brewing science
institutions in the world. Some of these concepts are even contrary to my
Siebel training, but as most know, brewing is a science and art that
continues to evolve.
Here we go:
1) First Wort Hopping:
Don't ! This was a technique adopted by German brewmasters in the early
80's under the premise that it produced a "finer bitterness" than
traditional early kettle hopping. NONE do it anymore! The reason is that
they found out that this method of hopping is detrimental to head
retention. The current technique is to begin hop charges 10 minutes after
the onset of a vigorous boil. Weihenstephan's professors contend that if
you perceive a harshness in your bittering additions, it is a hop variety
or crop issue, not the application of the hops themselves. This rings true
in the traditional sense since German brewers have always maintained that
the use of low alpha varieties (nobles) produces a finer hop character in
beer.
2) Step mashing as a method of increasing dextrines to increase the
viscosity (mouthfeel) of beer:
Even though it is true that this mash technique does increase dextrins as
an end result, it has been discovered that the perception of rich body in
beer by humans is not related to dextrin content, but rather is a
psychological reaction to some yet to be identified property in beer. They
determined this through extensive blind trials where identical beers were
sampled, half as-is and half with added dextrins. 100% of the respondants
rated the body of the beers as identical!
Now what does this mean to us as brewers? With the fully modified malts
available to us today, it is pointless to do anything other than a single
step infusion mash. And, with the great excess of enzymes that are present
in our malts (remember almost all fully modified malts are designed for
big brewers with high adjunct rates), this means conversion can be
achieved much faster than once believed. The current recommendations for
all fully modified malts is a mash at 68~70C/154~158 with a pH of 5.3 for
only 20 minutes prior to recirculation until the runnings are clear. Then
sparge with 168 degree water, stopping the runnings at 2.5P/1.010SG. Then
top up to kettle volume. Running beyond this gravity floor will only
extract tannis and lipids. The idea here is to maximize extraction while
minimizing grain contact. This goes a long way toward the elimination of
tannins (harsh, husky flavors) and lipids (head killers and can create
clarity issues) being entrained in the wort. The complete science
regarding this technique is outlined in both Charlie Bamforth's and
Michael Lewis's new books that are available from the Association of
Brewer's publishing arm, Brewer's Publications. You can order them online
from www.beertown.org.
3) Wort Aeration:
If possible, don't! The reason is that it is not the wort that needs the
oxygen, it is the yeast. By oxgenating the wort instead of the yeast
starter, it will cause an over production of cells due to the excessive
oxygen presence. This then leads to the production of unwanted esters and
higher alcohols that will compromise beer flavor.
When oxygenating starters, you cannot use pure O2... the reason is that
the uptake occurs too fast and without a dissolved O2 meter ($$$), you
cannot tell when to stop. The way to properly do this one is to aerate
using a high pressure aquarium pump, sterile air filter and a stainless
steel aeration stone, all of which are redily available. It is virtually
impossible to over-aerate using air, so you will avoid oxygen toxicity
problems that will occur if trying to do this with pure oxygen.
I know these topics are contrary to what most people have learned and read
about (me included!) and particularly go against traditionalist notions.
In the case of the 20 minute, single rest, high temperature infusion
mashing technique, remember that all of the mandates we learned were based
historically when barley varieties and malting was very poor. This reality
required heroic steps to produce a good wort, but they have been proven to
no longer be necessary, and in some ways, detrimental.
Upon returning from this recent training, I instituted these practices in
my brewery and they definitely work. My biggest concern was centered
around the mashing regimin change. I kept obsessing that the short mashing
time might lead to a reduction in wort color or hue. Nope! Not only did
the wort turn out great, but I chopped 70 minutes out of my day!
Give these a whirl. I think you will be pleased with the results and you
didn't have to pay thousands of dollars to find out like I did."
My comments, and feel free to correct me are:
Oxygenation of starters: I do it, and my beers are fine. Ten seconds,
that's it. I would rather a little too little than not any, and IMHO, a
starter is very fragile thing. Dang if I am going to ruin a brew before I
even dough in! While the writer may be correct in his assessment of
oxiygenation of a starter, I also think that minimization of risk of
infection is a good thing in a starter. Yes, I know I could use HEPA
filters and an aquarium pump, but I trust my "O2 wand" to give a short
blast and get my yeasties on their merry way. YMMV.
Aeration of wort: Air is 21% oxygen, roughly (very slightly less). A good
oxygenation level is 20% -- if you believe conventional wisdom (Fix?)
Therefore, it is virtually impossible to over-aerate a wort. In fact, you
will not get 100% uptake. But you will be in the ballpark of 15+% O2 if
you aerate properly.
Here, I disagree entirely with the author. Again, YMMV.
Single Infusion Fast conversion, yes...in a commercial or laboratory
setting. Doubtful in a homebrew setting where things are normally far
from optimum.
I have heard thirty minutes, minimum, however. I run 40 and start checking
for conversion. It is my belief that thirty minutes in an inefficient
mash tun like a non-circulated mash tun in a homebrew setting (think:
cooler) will yield very low efficiency in such a short time frame.
To quote John Palmer, whom has given me and many many others the ability
to brew a solid AG brew through the lessons in his fine textbook:
QUOTE from How to Brew:
"Fully-modified malts have already made use of these enzymes and do not
benefit from more time spent in the protein rest regime. In fact, using a
protein rest on fully modified malts tends to remove most of the body of a
beer, leaving it thin and watery. Most base malt in use in the world today
is fully modified. Less modified malts are often available from German
maltsters. Brewers have reported fuller, maltier flavors from malts that
are less modified and make use of this rest." END QUOTE.
In other words, the guy is correct in one sense, and in another entirely
incorrect. Do they use German malts in Weihenstephan? Probably.
I'll read your comments when I return from the Carribean, it's almost time
for me to go and suffer with cold Caribs on an island beach. :-)
In the meantime,
Cheers,
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:48:58 -0500
From: "Walsh, Susan" <susan-walsh at uiowa.edu>
Subject: loss of judge, mentor and good friend
On Tuesday August 17, Michael Hansen, lost his battle with cystic fibrosis.
Michael was a National ranked BJCP judge.
Michael was past-president of THIRSTY (Iowa City, IA) homebrew club.
He is survived by his wife Joelen and son Matthew.
Services are Saturday (August 21) from 1- 3pm.
A celebration of Michael's life will be from 3- 5pm.
Please toast Michael and his family.
Susan Walsh
President of THIRSTY
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 19:41:29 -0400
From: Tidmarsh Major <tidmarsh at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Listen to your yeast
Heard the end of an interesting report from NPR on the way home this
evening. Scientists at UCLA are listening to the sounds made by
yeast.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3859762
Tidmarsh Major
Tuscaloosa, Ala.
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4584, 08/19/04
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