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HOMEBREW Digest #4586
HOMEBREW Digest #4586 Sun 22 August 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org
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Contents:
Try It For Yourself ("Phil Yates")
Re: CO2 Regulator Problems ("Dave and Joan King")
O2 & Yeast ("Dave and Joan King")
Subject: Re: Steam Injection Into Mash Tun -- Anyone Use This? (Gary Spykman)
link of the week - disinfection effectiveness (Bob Devine)
Re: New Mashing Ideas (Grant Family)
Re: New Brewing/Mashing Ideas (John Palmer)
Growing Hops - Containers? (Chris & Dianne)
sec: unclass RE: Cutting the top off of kegs ("Williams, Rowan")
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:52:45 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates at bigpond.com>
Subject: Try It For Yourself
Fred L. Johnson writes:
>Hey, I, too, want to believe I can reduce my mash time to 20 minutes,
>but please give me some data to convince me it works!
Fred
I'm surprised that after all these years of brewing, you're still wanting
someone else's data on what does and doesn't work. Why don't you try a 20
minute mash for yourself? Then you will have your very own results from your
very own experiment. You won't need anyone else's data. If it doesn't work,
you won't do it again.
Why do so many brewers want data about things they can try for themselves?
There is nothing to fear about trying something for yourself (if you are
curious) and making your own determination.
I sometimes think some brewers prefer to read something in a book, rather
than draw their knowledge from their own brewing experiences. I've recently
discovered you can make superb beer, without doing any mashing at all. But I
doubt my enlightenment would be of any interest in this forum.
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:25:21 -0400
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: CO2 Regulator Problems
Richard,
I think you've got a ruptured diaphragm, or similar leak in your regulator,
if you're getting a leak from the vent hole. You'll probably just need to
replace it. You can take it apart if you really think you know what you're
doing, to try and repair it, but that can be dangerous. I suggest you take
the safe route, and just ditch it. FWIW,
Dave King (BIER), [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:51:23 -0400
From: "Dave and Joan King" <dking3 at stny.rr.com>
Subject: O2 & Yeast
Yes, the yeast need the O2 to reproduce with. Even a big starter can't
begin to hold enough O2 for a 5 gallon batch. It's good to pitch a big
starter, near high Krausen, no doubt, but trying to saturate the whole wort
(once it's cooled down) is best. You can't practically have too much yeast.
Pitching a batch on top of all the yeast from a previous batch, with heavy
aeration, gives the best possible results, no off flavors, quick and fully
attenuated fermentation.
Years of my experience and our club brewers experience agrees with what I've
also read many places. You won't oxidize anything in your wort below about
85 F, and in a day or less, the vigorous CO2 production will scrub out any
remaining O2. Long lag times provide specific flavors in wheat beers,
which would be the exception.
Dave King (BIER), [396.1, 89.1] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:44:04 -0400
From: Gary Spykman <mail at gjwspykman.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Steam Injection Into Mash Tun -- Anyone Use This?
Greetings all,
I've been receiving the HBD for years, and finally there is a
question that I can answer! A few days ago Charles Boyer asked about
using steam in the mash tun. I may, in fact, be an "expert" on this
one arcane area of homebrewing.
You've heard of RIMS and HERMS, well I use a mashing system which I
call a SIMM. This is my Steam Injected Mash Mixer. That pretty much
describes the thing, its a fairly elegant contraption which goes into
the mash tun and mixes the mash while injecting steam as needed. And
it works GREAT! Its so simple to operate, there is no chance of
scorching, and because it works in conjunction with the mixer, the
temperature is consistent throughout the mash. I can raise the
temperature as quickly as one or two degrees a minute, or with the
adjustment of a needle valve, as slowly as I want.
Whenever the subject of using steam has been brought up, naturally
safety has been the primary concern. And rightly so. I am a
furnituremaker, and I have been using steam in my shop to soften wood
for bending for several years now. It was my initial research in
steam bending that led me to the safe system which I now use for both
steam bending wood and brewing beer. Most small woodworking shops
doing steam bending use some sort of tea kettle with a piece of
radiator hose going to the steam box (which contains the wood to be
softened). That just sounded too messy and imprecise for me. So I
looked at what the large operations did. Well the big boys use a
fully enclosed system with pressurized steam, which is much more
efficient.
"A fully enclosed system using pressurized steam", that was exactly
what I wanted. And I knew where to get one. Lucky for me a local tool
rental company was going out of business and I was able to get a
great deal on a...have you figured it out yet? A wallpaper steamer!
It's perfect, I just fill it with water, plug it in, wait about half
an hour, and I have steam delivered safely at 12 psi. via a rubber
hose with standard air hose quick connect fittings.
So there it is, in simplified form, my ultimate home brewery. Or I
guess I should say shop brewery, since my setup is at my workshop. I
plug the hose from the wallpaper steamer into my SIMM, switch on the
mixer, and I'm up and running. I use a thermometer which is installed
through the side of the mash tun to read the temperature, and control
things manually. I guess if I was really interested I could automate
the thing, but so far it's been easy enough to use the thermometer, a
timer, and the needle valve to run whatever mash regimen I need.
If anyone is interested I could give more detailed info.
- --
Gary Spykman
G.J.W. Spykman, Furniture & Design
47 Victoria Street
Keene, New Hampshire 03431
phone: 603.352.5656
fax: 603.352.5455
e-mail: mail at gjwspykman.com
web site: www.gjwspykman.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:59:31 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: link of the week - disinfection effectiveness
All of homebrewers have learned, sometimes by quite hard lessons,
of the need for cleanliness.
Well how good are the common methods of disinfecting?
Cook's Illustrated, a great foodie magazine, looked at cleaning
a kitchen sponge with boiling water, bleach, and normal cleaning.
Results are measured in CFUs (colony forming units) for the
bacteria found on the sponge after each cleaning attempt.
Treatment Method: Post-treatment Bacteria Count
1. Boiling water (boiled hard for 3 minutes): 1,000 CFU
2. Bleach solution (soaked in 1/4 cup bleach and 4 cups water
for 10 minutes): 2,000 CFU
3. Dishwasher (one regular cycle): 410,000 CFU
4. Soap and hot water (saturated for 2 minutes): 1,400,000 CFU
5. Freeze for 48 hours: 59,000,000 CFU
http://www.cooksillustrated.com/article.asp?did=6570&bdc=78840
Standard recommendations for Pasteurization is to boil for 30
minutes or autoclave for 15 minutes. It could be argued that
the sponge needed more than 3 minutes to adequately penetrate.
And for homebrewers that use bleach, note that they used a
1/4 cup in a quart of water, quite a bit higher than the
typical ratio for soaking carboys.
Bob Devine
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:03:50 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: New Mashing Ideas
At 01:44 PM 21/08/04, you wrote:
>Hey, I, too, want to believe I can reduce my mash time to 20 minutes,
>but please give me some data to convince me it works!
This thread on BeerTools came out when the HBD was in "recess" but got a
good flogging on the Aussie digest at the time. A friend of mine
corresponded with the guy ("Eric" - I thought it might be Eric Warner, but
then he returned from Weihenstephan years ago...) and said there was no way
he had been able to get even a 100% pils grist to convert in such a short
time. Eric's response was to say that 20 mins at 2.8L/kg (~1.33qt/lb) at a
temp of 67-8C (153-4F) should give you conversion. He suggested using
coffee paper to filter the wort (emulating the vorlauf used in the sparge)
which removes any grain particles which would otherwise give you an
incorrect result with an iodine test.
Even still, I'd have reservations. Firstly, 20mins at 153-4F will give you
a very dextrinous wort even compared to 60mins at the same temp. Also, this
style of mashing is less likely to be effective with grists with less
enzymes (eg. a high proportion of Munich malt).
I'm currently trying it out in any case.
Cheers
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:37:19 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: New Brewing/Mashing Ideas
I think the most important idea to hang onto in these sorts of
discussions is "Context".
Commercial brewing is brewing at its finest and most controlled, but it
done thru the arm of finance. When you read about a brewing method or
technique that is stated as being better than current practice, are
they talking about quality or money? The axiom: Faster, Better, Cheaper
- Pick two out of three; applies to all industries, not just aerospace.
So, with that thought in mind, let's look at these assertions. (Btw,
thanks Charles for posting them, discussion is always good)
1. First Wort Hopping reduces head retention.
As a junior brewing scientist, I have got to ask Why and How? And to
what extent?! The proteins responsible for head retention can be
affected by haze clarifiers, especially the early ones like papain,
tannic acid, and bentonite, (Bamforth, ASBC Journal 57(3):81-90, 1999)
but look at this context - additives to the wort to promote clarity
and shelf life by reducing polyphenols and polypeptides, and the
subsequent issues if too much is used. Well, you don't have the article
in front of you like I do, but in summary, there is debate about how
much the foaming polypeptides are affected. Different brewing chemists
have differing data.
My point: that accepting a factoid as a general fact is misleading.
I will conjecture that FWH is not commonly used in Germany anymore
because it may not be economical.
2. (Paraphrasing) Step mashing is of little value because beer drinkers
can't perceive improved body due to higher dextrin content.
Step mashing with modern malts does not accomplish all that it used to
with less-modified malts. It is true that modern highly-modified malts
(probably 90% of world production or more) do not benefit from a
protein rest because the protein matrix has been fully broken down
already during malting. But! that is not the only reason to step mash,
you can also step mash using modern malts to change the fermentability
profile - making it more fermentable or more dextrinous. Okay, so
making a wort more dextrinous may not have a mouthfeel benefit
according to one study. Fine, fine, you can still step mash to make the
wort more or less fermentable for other reasons, depending on the style
of beer you wish to produce. Not everyone brews for the same reasons.
And as for extraction efficiency from the mash, that is very true,
except that we are not commercial brewers and don't particularly care
to achieve that optimum balance between yield and tannin extraction
when continuous sparging. We can batch sparge or no-sparge and never
worry about tannins in the wort, however long we mash, because the
stable mash and sparge pH will inhibit tannin extraction.
3. Wort non-aeration. If you are a commercial brewer and can achieve
your optimum yeast population for you batch before you pitch, then
there are probably benefits for consistency of flavor from batch to
batch. There are also issues with both overpitching and overaeration. I
think there are many acceptable solutions.
In summary, keep in mind that Weihenstephen and UC Davis and Seibel are
about commercial brewing, and commercial brewing is about making the
same beer every day at the best cost. When discussing "improvements" or
"best practices" it is important to think about the author's priorities
and consider the scale.
Further discussion is welcome, but I now have to go read Green Eggs and
Ham for the millionth time. (my best time is about 2 minutes I think)
John
John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:54:36 -0700
From: Chris & Dianne <johnstonmaclean at shaw.ca>
Subject: Growing Hops - Containers?
Hi all.
I plan to grow hops starting next spring and have a question. Has anyone
successfully grown hops from containers, or MUST they be grown in the
ground? I'm not sure how extensive their root system is, and I'd like to
grow them in a very large pot on the deck, up over an arbour for shade. Any
thoughts?
Chris
Victoria,
British Columbia
Canada
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:04:18 +1000
From: "Williams, Rowan" <Rowan.Williams at defence.gov.au>
Subject: sec: unclass RE: Cutting the top off of kegs
In #4582, Doug asked:
>>>Both seem to have a problem with the width of the cutting edge not
matching the target diameter. How do you overcome that?
Brew on!
Doug Moyer<<<
Easy mate!
Get fair dinkum and use a grinder - I used my trusty DeWalt grinder and cut
the top off an empty and degassed ;-) sankey keg with one disk in about 3
minutes. Align the top of the grinder against the inside of the keg handle
rim and use it as a guide to give you a perfect opening around the keg. Cut
in a smooth fluid motion and avoid overheating the metal by hovering over
the same spot on the lid as you cut down into the steel. This method is
easy and safe to do because the blade is spinning on the opposite side of
the operator, but still use safety gear - especially goggles! Clean up the
very sharp cut edge with some sandpaper and you're in business...
Cheers,
Rowan
Canberra Brewers, Australia
[9588.6, 261.5] AR (statute miles)
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4586, 08/22/04
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