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HOMEBREW Digest #4482
HOMEBREW Digest #4482 Mon 23 February 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: your hbd post ("Peter A. Ensminger")
Garden Hose in brewing? (Pat Babcock)
Starters ("William Frazier")
re: Palmer's new product announcement ("Chad Stevens")
Link of the week - Feb 21, 2004 (Bob Devine)
homebrewing in prison (ivey)
mass flow meters ("Mike Sharp")
Re: mass flow meters ("-S")
Re: mass flow meters ("Mike Sharp")
Re: Agar substitute ("Steve Alexander")
Purposely underpitching yeast/repitching (ILRI)" <r.kruska@cgiar.org>
Back on your horse, pilgrim! ("Guy Gregory")
Cheap Conicals from Toledo Metal Spinning (Dean)
Re: Using hose in home brewing (Tim Howe)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:30:12 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: Re: your hbd post
Calvin recently posted some very negative opinions about the use of
garden Ho's in brewing.
I can state unequivocally there is nothing wrong with garden Ho's. In
fact, one of the best Ho's I ever had was a white Ho garden from
Belgium. This Ho was very light and refreshing and didn't taste anything
like plastic or lead. Based on my experience, ain't nobody can Ho like a
Ho garden.
Cheerio!
Peter
- ------------
For those considering using garden hose for any brewing, there is
recent, reliable info that many (or most) typical garden hose brands
contain lead as a "binder" in the PVC. I'm not usually one to worry
about minor dangers, but if the lead is way above health standards from
cold water sitting in the hose, then hot wort would be a worry.
But besides that, don't you remember those hot summer days when you grab
a quick drink from the garden hose, and...phew, yuck! Too quick! Nasty
plastic taste! Lead or not, you don't want that taste in your beer.
Use food-grade hose for anything touching hot liquor, beer, or wort.
Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:27:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Garden Hose in brewing?
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lingerie...
All this talk of using garden hose while brewing! I tried
wearing my wife's garden hose while brewing (oddly similar to
all the other hosiery she wears...) and found it most
constricting - uncomfortably so! I recommend NOT wearing hose
while brewing.
:^)
Seriously, though: I use RV hose for transporting brewing water
from the spigot to the HLT. It is made for the transport of
potable water, is not cost prohibitive, and serves me well.
But, I must stat that in my youth, I drank deeply from the
flowing water of the Garden Hose at every opportunity (despite
the parental warnings regarding hepatitus and myriad other
hose-borne diseases). I leave it as an exercise for the reader
to determine whether there have been any deleterious effects...
Between pots, I've been in the habit of using washing machine
hookups (armored hose). This thread begs the question: is lead
involved in the manufacture of the interior hose of these
beasties? Maybe not, since hoses made throuhg a similar process
are used to hook up sinks; however, I still wonder...
- --
-
God bless America!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
- Arlo Guthrie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:39:26 -0600
From: "William Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Starters
Jeff wrote;
"Dan McConnell of the late Yeast Culture Kit Co. recommended 50 grams
(malt) per liter (plus a bit of yeast nutrient - 1/8 tsp per
gallon)....and...
Wyeast recommends a starter gravity of 1.020-1.030."
Here's a pretty good way to make starter wort. I stop sparging at brix 5
(about SG 1020). There's always some wort left in the mash tun. While the
main wort heats to a boil I drain this low gravity, "waste wort" into quart
mason jars. I get 1 to 2 jars per batch. I pressure cook these jars of
starter wort like Jeff suggested. This low-gravity starter wort has very
little trub in it so you end up with quart jars of pretty clean wort. It's
easy, fast and no extra expense.
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:54:29 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: re: Palmer's new product announcement
John Palmer's shameless add:
"Subject: New Product Announcement: HBRC
Hi Group,
Just wanted to let everyone know that my Home Brewing Recipe Calculator
is now available (since December really) at several brewshops around
the country...."
My shameless endorsement (no affiliation yada yada):
Mr. Palmer was nice enough to ship me a box of books and "Home Brewing
Recipe Calculators" to give out as gifts for America's Finest City Homebrew
Competition this year (don't send any more entries, we're over 400 and
you're too late anyway).
Having played with his slide rule (no comments from the peanut gallery), I
can say with some authority, it's way groovy.
I've got printouts of IBU tables and am always making manual calculations
during the boil to figure out what additions I want to make. A fairly
painless task once you get the hang of it. However, Palmer's slide rule
comes up with essentially the same values in no time at all and with no
effort whatsoever. Very simple, very nice. And the gravity calculator
magically does stuff that has always been a pain in the rear for me (fire up
the computer, log onto excel, get the keypad dirty with my sticky
fingers...).
Lets see, 24 beer categories, he sent me 25 calculators...coincidence?...I
think not. Just might have to steal one.
J.P. da man.
Thanks,
Chad Stevens
QUAFF
San Diego
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:45:43 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the week - Feb 21, 2004
When you are on the road and want a good beer, how to you
find out what is worth stopping for? Thankfully, many websites are
out there that have listed the spots. And you can thank the hard-working
beerdrinkers who selflessly drank glass after glass of beer so that you,
the traveling public, can zip right in!
http://www.beertravelers.com/
http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Food/Drink/Beer/Brewers/Microbrewers_and_Brewpubs/
http://www.realbeer.com/search/brewtour/
http://brewpubzone.com/
http://www.beerwineonline.com/Main/Breweries.htm
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/beertravel/bpubs/
http://www.pubcrawler.com/
http://www.beerme.com/breweries/index.shtml
http://www.ratebeer.com/default.asp
http://breweriesontheweb.com/
http://www.mylifeisbeer.com/beer/bottles/list/United+States/country/
Bob Devine
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:45:06 -0600
From: ivey at uiuc.edu
Subject: homebrewing in prison
Greetings,
Here's an interesting glimpse of the depths to which
homebrewers can plummet when desperate:
http://www.blacktable.com/gillin030901.htm
Perhaps this recipe can form the basis for a new BJCP
category!! ;)
Chris Ivey
Champaign, IL
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:54:57 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: mass flow meters
I've used a variety of MFMs in the past. I believe the thermal MFMs are the
least expensive, as a general rule, because the primary measuring elements
are simple RTDs. These work by placing two RTDs in the process gas stream.
The upstream one is heated, and the delta-T is measured between the upstream
and downstream RTDs. The delta-T is proportional to mass flow.
I've used these to measure everything from the mass flow of an 8 inch
digester gas line to a co-gen reciprocating engine in a wastewater treatment
plant to a capillary sample line to ultra pure gas analyzers. They're very
stable, repeatable and the standard accuracy is usually 1-1.5% of full scale
or better. Better calibrations can be had, but with your basic model, we're
talking in the range of zero to 20 sccm, so you should be able to measure
within 0.3 sccm. I guess it depends on the size of your fermenter, but you
can get these in all sizes.
I agree with S, Ken's got a great idea. Sierra Instrument has a line of
these, and of course Omega carries them. Standard model is a little over
$200, but that's without a display. There are a couple of drawbacks to
these: They take quite a while to warm up and stabilize. There is a limit
to how fast they respond (though it's not all that bad), and you must filter
the gas if there are particulates. One of the things I really liked about
them was that I not only got the mass flow, but the temperature of the gas
itself. That doesn't matter for brewing, but in a digester cogeneration
application, it saves the cost of another instrument.
I'd be interested if someone could find a lower accuracy version (especially
with a display) in the $100 range. One can always connect a totalizer to
the output, so as to find the actual area under the curve.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:46:50 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: mass flow meters
Mike Sharp says ...
> I've used a variety of MFMs in the past. I believe the thermal MFMs are
the
> least expensive, as a general rule, because the primary measuring elements
> are simple RTDs. These work by placing two RTDs in the process gas
stream.
> The upstream one is heated, and the delta-T is measured between the
upstream
> and downstream RTDs. The delta-T is proportional to mass flow.
Right, they are cheap, but that have some performance issues. To be MFMs
are calibrated to one particular gas. The heat transfer characteristics of
oxygen is diffrence from air is differenct from CO2. You have to buy a
sensor for CO2. It really measures something close to mass flow; if the gas
gets thinner due to temp or pressure then the heat transferred is less. Or
at least that's my first take on how they work. This is actually a plus
for the fermenter situation I think. Still the MFMs are temp sensitive.
The big problem I found was that nearly all are made for very high gas flow
rates (liters per minute) and for a 5gal fermenter you need a peak of around
0.3L/min I think and you *like* a lot of resolution at the low end (maybe a
few ml per minute). I couldn't find that sort of resolutiuon when I looked
last Fall.
>They're very
> stable, repeatable and the standard accuracy is usually 1-1.5% of full
scale
> or better.
That's excellent info to have Mike, and I appreciaet your comments, but the
1% of FS is something of a problem if it means the data is crummy at the low
end of the scale. Assume you *need* 300ml/min FS min and just to handle a
10gal ferment with a little excess or a really HOT gal ferment you'd want
about a 1L/min FS. 1.5% error is 15ml/min and that's about the magnitude
of the variable in early and late ferment. If the meter still has
resolution at that signal range it's probably useful, but if it can't
distinguish 15ml/min vs 0 and just drops to zero it's not so useful IMO.
The system 1.5% FS error is probably OK but it depends on how the error is
distributed on the low-end. Can you explain that ?.
> I'd be interested if someone could find a lower accuracy version
(especially
> with a display) in the $100 range. One can always connect a totalizer to
> the output, so as to find the actual area under the curve.
Or just collect and integrate in a cheap computer. You probably want to
collect the data for computation anyway.
The performance of Coriolis MVDs sensors looks completely outstanding, but
the beginning prices approach a grand and that's not in my HB budget unless
I can find a way to build one to my less-than-industrial reqs for a lot less
or thay show up in the surplus markett for something reasonable.
thanks Mike your experience and knowledge is greatly appreciaeted.
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:18:42 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: mass flow meters
A couple more comments, inline:
> Right, they are cheap, but that have some performance issues. To be MFMs
> are calibrated to one particular gas. The heat transfer characteristics
of
> oxygen is diffrence from air is differenct from CO2. You have to buy a
> sensor for CO2.
It's the same sensor, just a different calibration. You could account for
it in your computer, if you needed it calibrated for more than one gas. But
for HB needs, just get a CO2 calibration, or figure a table of offsets.
When used for CO2, the max flow rate is probably about 80% of the rate for
nitrogen/air.
> It really measures something close to mass flow; if the gas
> gets thinner due to temp or pressure then the heat transferred is less.
Or
> at least that's my first take on how they work. This is actually a plus
> for the fermenter situation I think.
That's correct. It measures true mass flow, albeit indirectly. And they
function completely independant of pressure and temperature. That's way
better than a volumetric meter that must also measure pressure and
temperature to infer mass flow. Volumetric measurments are not prone to
accurate repeatable results.
> Still the MFMs are temp sensitive.
No, they're not that bad. At least not within any realistic range. The
Omega is rated 10-50C (50-100F). The Sierra Instruments is better; 0-50C.
They all have fairly low temperature and pressure co-efficients. As long as
your temps aren't swinging wildly, you can calibrate for it.
> The big problem I found was that nearly all are made for very high gas
flow
> rates (liters per minute) and for a 5gal fermenter you need a peak of
around
> 0.3L/min I think and you *like* a lot of resolution at the low end (maybe
a
> few ml per minute). I couldn't find that sort of resolutiuon when I
looked
> last Fall.
<snip>
> 1% of FS is something of a problem if it means the data is crummy at the
low
> end of the scale. Assume you *need* 300ml/min FS min and just to handle
a
> 10gal ferment with a little excess or a really HOT gal ferment you'd want
> about a 1L/min FS. 1.5% error is 15ml/min and that's about the magnitude
> of the variable in early and late ferment. If the meter still has
> resolution at that signal range it's probably useful, but if it can't
> distinguish 15ml/min vs 0 and just drops to zero it's not so useful IMO.
> The system 1.5% FS error is probably OK but it depends on how the error is
> distributed on the low-end. Can you explain that ?.
But if you're interested in the *integral* of flow (the total CO2 mass
produced), I'd say the accuracy at the low end doesn't really matter all
that much. If you're interested in the *rate* then buy a meter that's about
150% of the rate you're interested in. It's not fair to say you're
interested in the rate at all points! ;^)
Both coriolis and thermal mass flow meters have around a 10:1 turndown
ratio. Typically the accuracy is rated from 10% to 100%, but the resolution
is much better. In the case of the Omega thermal mass flowmeter, the
repeatability is 0.5% FS. But while the coriolis MFMs have a better
accuracy for a given rate (about 0.5% of the rate, I think), they still only
go from 10%-100%. If you need better than 10:1 turndown, you need two
meters in either case. Very few single primary process instruments go
better than 10:1.
IMHO, It's hard to argue with 1-1.5% FS, when the turndown is 10 to 1.
You're still in within 10% of the actual rate at the low end. They're not
mechanical, and they don't just drop to zero when the flow gets low. But
the number you read on the display can be a little deceiving, if it shows
005 ml/min (out of 100 FS), then you're down in the noise. You can see
there is *some* flow, but you can's say quantitatively how much.
And at the end of ferment, as you said, the source of a lot of that gas is
the CO2 coming out of solution, so it's not telling you much about the
current state of fermentation anyway. And it makes little difference in the
total gas produced.
The basic Omega unit comes in a variety of sizes, but the one's we'd be
interested in are all 1/8" line size, max flow up to about 1000 sccm,
depending on model (the FMA31XX series go up to 10,000 sccm). But if you
really wanted a larger turndown range, two meters would give you stated
accuracy from say 5 sccm to 500 sccm. So, a 0-50 sccm and a 0-500 sccm
would, for a little over $500, give you an absolute accuracy of 0.5-0.75
sccm up to 50 sccm, and about 5-8 sccm up to 500 sccm. But the
repeatablility is much better; about 0.5% FS. If you really want, you could
stretch it to a 0-100 sccm and a 0-1000 sccm for $560 (I'm sure you could
find it cheaper). That means 1-1.5 sccm accuracy, and repeatability of 0.5
sccm or better up to 100 sccm, and 10-15% from 100 to 1000 sccm. The
resolution would have to be less than 0.5 sccm.
It's worth noting, however, that other makers offer better accuracy if you
pay more. Sierra Instruments standard accuracy is 1% FS, but a high
accuracy calibration is available at 0.7% of reading, plus 0.3% FS. This is
obviously only useful high in the flow range.
As I mentioned, though, CO2 max flow rates are about 80%. So the meter
combinations would really yield flows around 0-40/0-400 and 0-80/0-800 sccm.
>
> The performance of Coriolis MVDs sensors looks completely outstanding, but
> the beginning prices approach a grand and that's not in my HB budget
unless
> I can find a way to build one to my less-than-industrial reqs for a lot
less
> or thay show up in the surplus markett for something reasonable.
You mean like:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2598064685&category=1504
Ah yes, the surplus market is definitely where I would look. I've seen the
MKS brand at the Boeing surplus store here...wish I'd picked one up! There
are several on eBay, but they're larger units; 100 slpm. The trick is
finding a surplus smaller unit. Not as common.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:58:15 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Agar substitute
Jeff May asks,
>Has anyone ever used fruit jell pectin (for making jelly)
>instead of gelatin or agar?
Pectins will not remain a gel; it will turn to liquid. Protein
gels will work but may get surface condensation this can
disturb the yeast colony. It's hard to beat agar.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:51:16 -0800
From: "Kruska, Russ (ILRI)" <r.kruska at cgiar.org>
Subject: Purposely underpitching yeast/repitching
Since there is alot of talk about repitching yeast lately, I thought I would
post about my naughty practice of purposely underpitching when I know
I will not be around to package the brew for 6-8 weeks. So the resulting
longer fermentation
buys me time with usually no impact on quality of the brew.
Now my big question is: after 7 weeks I have noticed a little more frequent
bubbling in
the airlock; not alot, but maybe every 45-60 seconds (after fermentation had
stopped almost
completely). I want to repitch this yeast (for the first time) tomorrow when
I brew but I'm a
little shy about repitching this yeast after such a long period. Any
comments?
Russ Kruska
Lonely Hedge Brewing Company
Nairobi, Kenya
East Africa
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:52:44 -0800
From: "Guy Gregory" <guy.gregory at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Back on your horse, pilgrim!
Greetings.
I've been away from the homebrew world for a while for various reasons. The
siren song of my brewing equipment (Hey, duuuude! Give up Miller Lite!)
called me back, and after two years I thought you might enjoy some
observations.
Used carboys require significantly more cleanup than new ones. I had stored
them at the last brew session like I always did, clean, with about an inch
of water and some iodophor in them, and corked. Well, after a year or so,
they still need cleaning, and the cork is purple from the iodine. Couple
hours of soaking and scrubbing with my old carboy brush had 'dm sparkling
again, ammonia is wonderful on glass..(don't mix with bleach, ever!)
Old brewpots, especially canners, often develop rust holes. As I was
warming my sparge water in the small enameled canner, I noticed water on my
patio. A small pinhole had developed in the bottom of the pot (had it been
in the top, how would I have noticed?) which drained nearly boiling water
all over the concrete. Saved through an application of SWMBO's pots.
Old immersion chillers, when tested to see if maybe they have developed
holes, too, have. Fortunately, I had a fairly long piece left to use for
chilling.about 14 feet outa 25.
Formerly trustworthy things like that wooden stirspoon and the big plastic
funnel, even though you put them away clean, now are suspicious. Now,
actually, are gone.
I basically had to run all my stuff through the Office of Homebrewery
Security to see if it was worthy of further employment. Racking canes,
funnels, spoons, were all deported. Everything else was strip-searched.
And my wonderful friends at Jim's HomeBrew are still there to sell me
stuff. Yay!
The result? Today, a charming IPA sits clearing in the secondary, happy and
humble, and a delight to behold. My last 6 of cheapo beer chills in the
beerfridge, to be swept away by the forthcoming assault by the Bleach
Marines.
It's great to be back.
Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA
(1660.4, 294.3) Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:56:50 -0800
From: Dean <dean at deanandadie.net>
Subject: Cheap Conicals from Toledo Metal Spinning
Hello everyone,
I figure I can put together a conical fermenter for around $300, which is
$150 to $300 cheaper than you can buy one. To get this price I need Toledo
Metal Spinning's volume discount, so I have a proposition. For those of you
that do not know, Toledo Metal Spinning sells a hopper that with a little work
can be converted into a 12 gallon conical fermenter. Since the homebrew
community found out about this they raised their prices in accordance with the
demand. However, if you order 25 or more of the hoppers you get a good
discount, so I would like to get together with at least 24 of my closest
homebrewing friends and place an order. Unfortunately, I do not know 24
people who brew so I am appealing to this community.
Here is the deal I offer:
1. Email me if you are interested. The hoppers are $100 at that volume (a
bigger discount on orders of 50 or more). Add in some shipping costs.
2. Once I have at least 24 replies, I will send you a request for payment.
This payment will include the cost of the hopper, shipping to my place and
shipping from my place to yours.
3. Once I have a minimum of 24 orders, I will send out a due date for
payments. Payments received after the due date will be returned and not be
included in the order.
4. When I get the order, I'll ship out the hopper to you via USPS delivery
racking.
5. I figure I can put together a working 12 gallon conical fermenter for
around $300. If you would like me to build a similar one for you, let me know
and I'll finalize the price, put it together, tack on the shipping costs and
send it off to you. Features include:
All ss fittings
Inexpensive PVC stand - painted to the color you like
Clear acrylic lid so you can watch the fermentation
Open-style fermenter (http://brewery.org/brewery/library/OpenFerm.html)
Things you need to know:
1. There are no holes in the hoppers. If at least 25 of us want Toledo Metal
to make the holes we get a volume discount of $13 per hole. More details
available.
2. You will need to purchase dump valve and side racking arm assemblies.
Zymco sells products designed for this (NAYY).
3. The hoppers don't stand up by themselves. Zymco also sells a stand. I
think I'll make mine out of painted pvc.
4. You will need some sort of lid. Toledo Metal Spinning sells one designed
for their hoppers, but since there is no volume discount I'll leave that up to
you. (Unless there is a shipping savings.) I plan on making mine out of
acrylic.
5. If you don't buy the Zymco stand kit, you need a seal and some way to clamp
the lid down. allorings.com sells an o-ring that should fit. You'll still
need to get an airtight seal. I plan on taking the plunge into "open"
fermenters, and just setting the lid on my fermenter.
Posts about Toledo Metal Spinning on the HBD: (2 lines)
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahbd.org+inurl%3Aarchive+%22toledo+
metal+spinning%22
or
http://tinyurl.com/2u67f
Toledo Metal Spinning's hopper product list:
http://www.toledometalspinning.com/products/hoppers/priceList.asp
Open Fermenters on the HBD (2 lines)
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ahbd.org+inurl%3Aarchive+
%22open+fermenter%22
or
http://tinyurl.com/2vzbu
- --Dean - Unscrambler of eggs
- --
Take your time, take your chances
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It matters not how strait the gate / How charged with punishment the scroll
I am the master of my fate / I am the captain of my soul. -- Invictus --
-- William E Henley --
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:57:02 -0500
From: Tim Howe <howe at execulink.com>
Subject: Re: Using hose in home brewing
>From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Using hose in home brewing
>
>For those considering using garden hose for any brewing,
>there is recent, reliable info that many (or most) typical
>garden hose brands contain lead as a "binder" in the PVC.
>I'm not usually one to worry about minor dangers, but if
>the lead is way above health standards from cold water
>sitting in the hose, then hot wort would be a worry.
>
>But besides that, don't you remember those hot summer days
>when you grab a quick drink from the garden hose, and...
>phew, yuck! Too quick! Nasty plastic taste! Lead or not,
>you don't want that taste in your beer. Use food-grade hose
>for anything touching hot liquor, beer, or wort.
Misinformation has a way of perpetuating itself, so before this gets out of
hand, lets clarify the facts shall we?
Garden hose water is definitely *not* suitable for drinking or brewing. If
hose is required for either of these applications at all, use FOOD GRADE only.
But, to get back to the original point, the use of a garden hose was
suggested as the outer coil/boundary of a CFC. The water that runs through
this coil does *not* come into contact with your wort. It merely flows over
the inner coil and effects heat transfer from the inner coil, and then
flows out the other end to be discarded. I won't go into the mechanics of a
CFC here, but if you do a search on the net for "Counterflow Chillers"
you'll get an idea of how they work.
Cheers,
Tim
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4482, 02/23/04
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