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HOMEBREW Digest #4454
HOMEBREW Digest #4454 Sat 17 January 2004
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Gose (tolmh)
party star deluxe correction ("mike sullivan")
RE: purging ("Doug A Moller")
re: Visiting West Palm Beach Florida ("Mark Tumarkin")
yeast culturing (Randy Ricchi)
RE Yeast Culturing Supplies ("Richard Scotty")
Brewing Software (HOMEBRE973)
Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques ("Mark Kellums")
problems ("Jay Spies")
Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques (Christopher Swingley)
Re: Schmidling Mill Motorized (NO Spam)
Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control ("Pete Calinski")
Server fund (mike4nospam)
Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques (Mark Tigges)
Cane vs. Beet sugar (Scott Perfect)
re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques (MOREY Dan)
Micros in Mexico (mclain1808)
micro-oxygenation ("Raj B. Apte")
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:18:55 +1100
From: tolmh at tpg.com.au
Subject: Gose
>I recently had my first taste of Gose...tips
>for this style?
Some notes I made last year when I was thinking about contemplating the
possibility of maybe brewing some gose ;)
- Michael Jackson says that Gose Ohne Bedenken is 50-60% wheat, with the
balance Pilsner and a 'small proportion' of Munich in a 2 hour mash.
- Historically, the style ranged from 1.036 to 1.056, with Ohne Bedenken coming
in the middle at 1.044-5 and finishing up at 4.6% abv.
- Ohne uses Northern Brewer for bittering and Perle (for flavour, I guess),
with overall bitterness described as 'low' or compared to a Berliner Weisse.
- Coriander and salt are added at the 'whirlpooling' break-removal stage.
- Historically, the wort was spontaneously fermented, but Ohne uses a
Weihenstephan wheat yeast at 20oC for 3-7 days and followed by cold conditioning
for three weeks.
- MJ mentions that he thought the beer was too citric when he first tasted it,
and recommended using lactobacillus to cut it, and he says the brewer took him
up on it.
So, I was thinking of going:
60% Weyermann pale wheat
35% Weyermann pilsner
5% Munich
Or, for a 25L batch at 1.045, 3 SRM, 4.7% abv, 75% efficiency:
3.00 kg Weyermann pale wheat
1.75 kg Weyermann pilsner
0.25 kg Munich
Berliner Weisse weighs in at just 3-8 IBUs, though they're only 1.026-36.
Scaling up the BU:GU gives 12.5 IBUs for 1.045 OG. 10g of Northern Brewer at
7%/60 mins and 15g of Perle at 8.3%/15 mins should do it. Add a wit-like level
of coriander (say 40g crushed for 25L) at knock-out, along with the salt - but
how much? Ferment a week in primary with Wyeast 3068 / White Labs WLP300, lager
for a few weeks.
*shrug* Let me know how it turns out ;)
Cheers!
Matt in Canberra, Australia
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:45:27 -0600
From: "mike sullivan" <mikesullivan666 at msn.com>
Subject: party star deluxe correction
Sorry about that. It is the Party star deluxe. Its a mini tap made of
stainless and plastic made by the Fass-Frisch co. in Germany. Sorry about
the spelling error I had a few too many the other night.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:53:37 -0600
From: "Doug A Moller" <damoller at intergate.com>
Subject: RE: purging
"RE: purging
>A workable alternative is Dave Burley's suggestion to fill every
ioto of
>sealed keg volume with no-rinse sanitizer and blow this out with CO2.
Then
>fill the keg w/ beer thru the connection port w/ CO2 pressure.
This keeps
>transfer and headspace O2 very low.
Question: HOW do you get that last tiny bit of air out of the keg?
I am assumeing you are filling the corny keg with the lid off. Even
if I fill to the brim, I belieive there will be a bit of air trapped
unnder the lid when I insert the lid.
I also have a doubt you are getting every bit if the no rinse sanitizer
out, the way an inverted keg without its lid does."
open the pressure relief valve! allow some sanitizer to flow out, should be
dood to go.
Doug
anybody motorized a Phil mill?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:02:26 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Visiting West Palm Beach Florida
Steven asks about beer sites in the West Palm area, and also about others
north or south on I-95. And about the new brewery in Spring Hill. We'll take
that first, it's called St. Sebastians and is just north of Tampa on Hiway
19.. It's run by a brewing daughter of the Sterkens family (longtime Belgian
Brewers). It's new, and the beer is still inconsistent, food ok. Long way from
West Palm. If you decide to go over that way, there are several good places in
the Tampa area - Tampa Bay Brewing, Dunedin, Hoppers (not Hops, but has 3
locations).
Keep in mind that FL is a LARGE state. Are you driving, how long do you have?
If you let me know specific places you want to visit, I may be able to steer
you towards something good. Brewzzi's does good beer, by the way, as does Big
Bear & Titanic, also in S. FL. Check out the Florida Brewers Guild site for
info on many Fl brewpubs & micros. www.floridabrewersguild.org/
have fun!
Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:20:06 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: yeast culturing
I also used to get pre-poured plates and slants from Brewers Resource.
You can still get them from the Grape and Granary
http://www.thegrape.net/ and also at Cynmar http://www.cynmar.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:53:03 +0000
From: "Richard Scotty" <rscotty2 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE Yeast Culturing Supplies
Denny asks about yeast ranching supplies. I used to do all my own yeast
ranching
with supplies from Brewer's Resource too. I really miss their pre-filled
plates
- they were truly convient. Alas BR is gone and I'm firing up the old yeast
ranch again as Denny is trying to do.
Denny's questions:
1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates and
slants is a combination of agar and DME. Is this correct? What's the
"recipe"?
I use equal parts of agar and dry malt extract (light and unhopped)
2.) Do I need a pressure cooker? Autoclave (hope not!). What's the
technique for filling plates and slants?
There may be some debate here, but I believe that you do need a pressure
cooker
to produce sterile plates / slants. Here in Colorado the boiling point of
water
at atmospheric pressure is around 200 degrees. Not hot enough to kill all
nasties. While an autoclave would be a great addition to the brewery, they
are
a bit on the pricy side. This one would be hard to justify to SWMBO.
3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
I've found a great selection at Cynmar www.cynmar.com (NAYY). Prices are
good
and shipping is included.
4.) What do I need to know that I don't know I need to know?
Probably a bunch. The one thing I know is that I know that I don't know it
all.
I'm sure others will provide additional info to the discussion.
Rich Scotty
Chief Yeast Wrangler - The Crapshoot Brewery
Highlands Ranch, CO
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:51:11 -0500
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: Brewing Software
What are people's opinions of the currently available
brewing software that are either shareware or freeware?
How would you rate the newer version of SUDS?
Thanks,
Andy from Hillsborough
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:58:17 -0600
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques
Just the opposite here. I usually pour my own plates but it's a bit of a
pain in the butt so I just purchased some potato dextrose prepared plates
from Cynmar. They used to carry prepared plates w/malt extract but I see
they don't anymore. Hopefully the PDA plates will work okay.
Denny, roughly, I used a couple tablespoons of DME per half liter of tap
water w/ yeast nutrients and 3 1/2 tsp agar powder. I pressure cooked this
for about 15 minutes at 15 lbs pressure. After cooling I then pour into the
sterile plates about half way up the side of the plate or so. My biggest
problem was from condensation forming on the inside of the plates.
Apparently I don't let the agar solution cool enough.
I buy most of my supplies from Cynmar.
Mark Kellums
| ------------------------------
|
| Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:09:53 -0800
| From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
| Subject: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques
|
| I started culturing yeast on plates and slants a few years ago with
| supplies from Brewer's Resource. It made it really easy since I could get
| pre-poured slants and plates. Brewer's Resource is long gone now, and
I've
| used up my supplies, so I guess it's time to break down and learn how to
| pour my own. I have some questions that I'm hoping someone can answer...
|
| 1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates and
| slants is a combination of agar and DME. Is this correct? What's the
| "recipe"?
| 2.) Do I need a pressure cooker? Autoclave (hope not!). What's the
| technique for filling plates and slants?
| 3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
| 4.) What do I need to know that I don't know I need to know?
|
| Thanks for any help!
|
| --------------->Denny
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:17:42 -0500
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: problems
All -
Leo Vitt Sez :
>>>Next question: Which is a bigger problem; A tiny bit of air, or a tiny
bit of sanitizer mixed into the beer?<<<
Um, probably neither!
And Jim Eberhart Sez :
>>>As I'm about to venture into counterpressure filling, I find myself
thinking about oxygenation. And after Steve's comment:
> even exposing the beer surface to air will cause more O2 pickup
> in the beer than is commercially acceptable
I'm now a little concerned. I realize of course that purging with CO2 prior
to bottling clears the bottle of O2, but what about afterwards? When the
filler is removed, the newly-created headspace will be air, not CO2. So, if
I'm concerned about long-term storage (and I am), the question is this: is
this a valid concern, or is it too little O2 to matter (and I'm worrying
about nothing)?<<<
AAAGH! I had a feeling this may happen. The good 'ol "is my beer ruined"
goblin rears its ugly head again... All CP fillers have a gas in valve. A
slow flow of CO2 prior to beer entry with the other valve purges most of the
O2. O2 absorbing caps pick up most of the rest of it. One trick is to bonk
the newly filled bottle with a spoon so it foams up and then cap on the
foam. That ensures almost no O2. Folks, unless you have a Melvico CP
filler or a professional setup that can adequately fob the headspace, you
will likely pick up a little O2. This is not, I repeat, not the end of the
universe. Your beer will not be ruined. I've seen Garrett Oliver bottle
*by hand* for the GABF and he uses a regular old counterpressure filler and
caps on the foam. I'm sure his beers are not ruined (as evidenced by his
many medals). If you need to worry about something with your beer, focus on
sanitation, or recipe formulation, or how to get SWMBO to let you brew three
times a month. Obsessing over minutiae may be fun for some but it gives me
a headache...
Oh, again, YMMV.
Jay Spies
Head Mashtun Scraper
Asinine Aleworks
Baltimore, MD
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:32:54 -0900
From: Christopher Swingley <cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques
Denny,
* Denny Conn <dennyatprojectoneaudio.com> [2004-Jan-15 08:09 AKST]:
> 1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates
> and slants is a combination of agar and DME. Is this correct? What's
> the "recipe"?
I use 1 cup of water, 4 Tablespoons LDME, and a pinch of yeast nutrient.
Boil for five minutes. Add 1 Tablespoon agar, mix. It should be pretty
thick, but pourable. I've added an extra teaspoon here, when it doesn't
look right. But you can tell if it's thick enough by putting a drop or
two on a spoon and cooling it to room temperature. If you've got brown
jello once cooled, it's thick enough.
Pour agar into tubes, filling them about 1/4 - 1/3 of the way. Make
sure the caps are loose so the pressure won't build up inside them when
they get hot.
Cook in a pressure cooker, 15 psi, 20 minutes.
After the pressure is gone from the cooker, remove the slants and
carefully lay them in a box on an angle so the tubes have agar media
from near the opening, "slanting" down to the bottom of the tube.
> 2.) Do I need a pressure cooker? Autoclave (hope not!). What's the
> technique for filling plates and slants?
I don't know if you really need a pressure canner or not, but the pH of
the media is probably not below 4.3, which would support the need for a
cooker. But this always seems to be a contentious issue, and I'm sure
there are reports of people doing it without a pressure cooker "and have
never had a problem." I don't want to take any chances, so I use a
pressure cooker.
> 3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
I got most of my supplies from B3. And most of the information from a
couple FAQ's I found on the Internet. B3 also sells a little
photocopied booklet written by Chris White that has good information in
it. The tubes are the most expensive part, but they'll last a long
time, and because you can autoclave them, you don't have to be as
careful during your agar preparation as you would with plastic plates.
> 4.) What do I need to know that I don't know I need to know?
I've never done it, but you might consider yeast freezing too. Sounds
like you can keep the yeast longer without replicating them and you
don't need to mess around with agar and stuff.
Chris
- --
Christopher S. Swingley email: cswingle at iarc.uaf.edu
IARC -- Frontier Program Please use encryption. GPG key at:
University of Alaska Fairbanks www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:44:09 -0500
From: NO Spam <nospam at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Schmidling Mill Motorized
I'm surprised I haven't seen a post from Jack
himself on this. ;)
I recall him saying in the past many times that
putting a drill on his mill or motorizing it
voids his warranty.
Just to be sure people understand that.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:09:43 -0500
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: chilling wort and fermentation temp control
Scott Alfter said:
- -------------------------------------------------
It gets pretty toasty here in Las Vegas, too. What I have seen done is to
fill a large plastic tub (or maybe just a sink) with ice and water and use a
swamp-cooler pump to pull water out of the tub and push it through an
immersion chiller.
- -----------------------------------------
I say,
I just use gravity. I fill a bottling bucket with ice, water, blue ice
packs, whatever I have in the freezer. The bucket has a valve at the bottom.
Elevate it and let it run into the immersion chiller. After all, you don't
need a high flow rate. The slower, the more efficient the cooling.
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
http://hbd.org/pcalinsk
***********************************************************
*My goal:
* Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
* (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:22:31 -0600
From: mike4nospam at centurytel.net
Subject: Server fund
Pat didn't point out in his post that individuals can also
make individual contributions to the server fund.
Pat contributes tons of his valuable personal time. Time
that takes away from time he could spend brewing.
Pat is asking for our help. We all benefit from Pat's selfless
contribution so we should all help out.
I've chosen to donate a brew-day. I'll be skipping my
next Saturday brewing session and working my normal job
instead. I've sent the money I'll earn that day to the server
fund. (Pat, maybe a direct link at the top on the HBD would make
this easier.)
I challenge everyone to make a brewing sacrifice to support
the HBD. Donate a brew-day, like I did. Or skip a brewing
session and send the HDB the money you would have spent on
supplies.
Mike Schrempp
Working on Saturday
Gig Harbr, WA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:05:48 -0800
From: Mark Tigges <mtigges at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques
Denny Conn wrote:
> I started culturing yeast on plates and slants a few years ago with
> supplies from Brewer's Resource. <snip> I have some questions that I'm
> hoping someone can answer...
> 1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates
> and slants is a combination of agar and DME. Is this correct? What's
> the "recipe"?
> 2.) Do I need a pressure cooker? Autoclave (hope not!). What's the
> technique for filling plates and slants?
> 3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
> 4.) What do I need to know that I don't know I need to know?
Denny,
You're the recipient of my first hbd post, read here (and you at rcb)
so I'm happy to reply to your questions. I've been culturing for
awhile and find it as enjoyable as brewing.
1. Yes that is correct, but it's not the only solution. You can also
use gelatin (but it's not as good, it doesn't have as good
gelatinization characteristics as agar). I typically make 1.5 litres
for a 1 liter starter if I need to make some plates, basically I use 1
tablespoon of dme per cup with about 1tsp of agar. The extra .5
litres I use for pouring plates and stabs.
2. Yes, break down and get a PC. I know you're a cheapskate of sorts
(smile, nice article in BYO), but it is much better than the
alternative. The alternative is to use a boiling water bath. This is
much less convienient. A 15 minute submersion in boiling water will
not sterilize your plates and vials. It kills everything but spores.
To kill spores you need to do it three times. Boil, let cool covered,
repeat twice (this info is from Rajotte, I've never tried it). A
pressure cooker takes about 45 minutes start to finish. Start making
your media while the PC is warming (if you have a small one, that's
uneccessary), fill your PC with your empty plates and vials (vials
should be filled, it's much easier). Run PC at 15psi for 15 minutes,
shutdown and let cool past 0 psi. Open her up, pour your plates. If
your vials are for slants, then let them cool at the appropriate
angle. (Though I don't recommend it, see #4.)
3) http://www.cynmar.com (the URL wasn't working for me this morning
though). Lots of 10ml vials for stabs, you brew a lot, so you'll
probably need around 10 plates, and E flasks with phenolic
screw-caps. 1 250ml & 1 1L (or more if you do multiple starters at
once). And I think a stir plate rocks, err no, I guess it stirs.
4) Read Pierre Rajotte,
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=BK580
I don't recommend slants. It seems in the HB community the SOP is
to pour starter wort into slant, let that get going, then step up.
IMO this isn't a great idea. Here is what I do.
1) Use stabs. A stab is similar to a slant (same media, but not at an
angle, and can be a MUCH smaller vial). Instead of having the yeast
grow on the media, it grows inside by virtue of having been stabbed
into the media with the loop. This has the advantage of extending
storage life by reducing the drying out of the media (less surface
area, less headspace, yeast has more moisture around it). Refridgerate
these. I keep two stabs for each yeast. One for usage, one for
archive.
2) Pour plates (petri dishes) of media for future use. When you want
to brew, 1 week or so prior, take your stab and stab it with your
loop, innoculate your plate. After 2 days or so, choose a nice
pin-prick colony on the plate and innoculate your starter with that
(10 ml), the PC comes in handy for that too. Step up a couple or more
times.
The reason I don't recommend using the WHOLE slant to innoculate your
starter is that what if it's contaminated? You have no chance. If
your stab has a mild contamination it's not a big deal.
When you plate from the stab (if you do it right, read Rajotte) you
will have lots of colonies to choose from. If there is a bacterial
contamination it will be obvious and you can very likely avoid it
easily.
My method definitely takes longer, an extra couple or three days. But
I only brew once a month or so, so it's not a big deal for me.
Best regards,
Mark.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:18:07 -0800
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cane vs. Beet sugar
Interesting discussions regarding "sucrose" the past few days.
I know that we have both cane and beet sugar available here
in the SF Bay area because I have twice unwittingly bought
beet sugar and received a lecture from my wife that beet
sugar does not work in many of her recipes. I never knew
if this was her own little quirk or not - and never cared
enough to give it any thought until it became beer-related. :-)
A quick search on "cane versus beet" reveals that others
share her opinion.
For example, the following blurb is from "Food Management"
magazine:
"According to the USDA, Americans consume about
65 pounds of sugar per person. For most of us,
any kind of sugar will do. But not so for
professional bakers, where using one type of
sugar over another may significantly affect the
success of a recipe"
Scott A. Perfect
San Ramon, CA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:27:37 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: re: Advice sought on yeast culturing supplies and techniques
Denny asks about pouring plates.
Pouring plates the easiest part of yeast ranching in my opinion, so you
already working with the tricky steps:
1.) I remember reading somewhere (here?) that the medium in the plates and
slants is a combination of agar and DME. Is this correct? What's the
"recipe"?
Agar or gelatin can be used. However, I have only used agar. Prepare a
wort as for a starter. Gravity around 1.030. Combine 2 grams or agar with
100 ml of starter wort. Bring to a boil. You will need to stir continually
as the agar solution will boil over easily is left unattended. Boil for 10
minutes. This is all the sanitation that the agar solution will require.
Cover and let the solution cool to about 150F. Make sure for work space is
clean. A wipe down with bleach solution should be sufficient. Before the
solution sets (begins around 140F), pour about 3-5 mm of solution into each
plate. Place the lid on each plate and let the medium set. Once it sets,
turn them upside down for few days to minimize condensation. I usually
cover them with a light weight cloth to keep light from them and to cut down
any influence from air movements. Streak the plates with yeast as you would
with purchased prepared plates.
2.) Do I need a pressure cooker? Autoclave (hope not!). What's the technique
for filling plates and slants?
Depends. Will you use sterile disposable plates and slants? If yes, then
you do not need one. If you plan on reusing glass plates and slants, then
wet heat sterilization is necessary. You could do this with a steamer
basket/kettle. Sterilize the glass containers before you fill them. Post
fill sterilization is not required as the agar solution has been boiled 10
minutes already. Do you want to can starters? If yes, then you need a
pressure cooker. I bought my pressure cooker for canning starters, but uses
it often for canning other produce. It was well worth the money in my
opinion. I really like the canned starters, no need to wait for starters to
cool before pitching yeast. Canned starters are convenient for making agar
medium.
See above.
3.) Where do you buy the blanks and other stuff?
I haven't had to buy any yet. My sister used to work in a genetic lab,
handling yeast, and she gave me around 200 sterile disposable plates. I've
only made a small dent in the supply. Cynmar http://www.cynmar.com/ is a
good source as they will sell to the public. Other suppliers you might look
at are:
Fisher Scientific https://www1.fishersci.com/index.jsp
Miller Analytical Services http://milleranalytical.com/
I'm not sure what their policies are with regards to selling to the public.
I've only bought equipment from Cynar. I bought agar from Beer, Beer, and
More Beer an hbd sponsor. Other homebrew retailers may sell agar. Many
health food stores will sell agar too.
Good Luck,
Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E. http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:32:26 GMT
From: mclain1808 at ecentral.com
Subject: Micros in Mexico
Hello all,
I am currently in Cuernavaca, Mexico and will be here for
four months. I am rapidly going through homebrew
withdrawal and doing quite well. However, if anybody
knows of any microbreweries in or near Cuernavaca (50
miles south of Mexico City), please be kind and let me
know. It will do my liver good!
Thanks in advance,
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:10:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte at yahoo.com>
Subject: micro-oxygenation
Brian Lundeen points out that winemakers are excited
about adding oxygen to their aging wines.
Also see www.flextank.com. Contrary to what others
have said, oxygen additions are standard in the
winemaking industry and important for cider and
plambic. Flextank sells HDPE barrels for
flavour-neutral oxygenation. Even better, they sell
silicone bladders into which pure O2 can be metered.
1-10ml O2/month is roughly 5-50ml air/month, about the
same as venting headspace once a month.
Wine made without oxygenation (which I have done) may
need hours to DAYS of decanting in air to smooth out.
raj
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4454, 01/17/04
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