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HOMEBREW Digest #4341
HOMEBREW Digest #4341 Fri 05 September 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Haze, Copper, Batch Sparge Instructions (John Palmer)
Re: beer and kids (Scott Alfter)
Sanitizers (thamric)
Kids and Beer ("Dan Listermann")
Re: Batch sparge calc's ("Michael O'Donnell")
grain pests (saw tooth beetles) (Greg Peters)
fixing a sluggish fermentation ("Raj B. Apte")
bitterness from decoction (Marc Sedam)
Drinking Wort, Cold Break, Skimming Hot Break (Alexandre Enkerli)
Pumps and astringency? ("Christian Layke")
Finings? ("Jeff Stith")
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Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:47:01 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer@altrionet.com>
Subject: Haze, Copper, Batch Sparge Instructions
My sincere thanks to Chad, Steve, Tim, and Petr for their contributions
to the Haze thread. I am learning quite a bit! I tend to be a "medium"
level of detail kind of guy, so it's nice to hear from the deep levels
of detail people. This encourages me to learn more about these subjects
than I thought advisable. ;-)
I really can't comment much on the material that Chad cited (I waited
to see what Steve would say because I knew he would understand it
better than I), but what I did get from his post was a great example
for showing where a brewer needs to know his art and move away from the
generalities to produce the best beer from a specific set of
ingredients and equipment. Obviously, a protein rest if you use high
protein adjuncts like oatmeal and wheat. And, his experience indicates
that a short protein rest may have benefits for other styles of beer
also. Although as Steve said, this data is open to other
interpretations of root cause. Still, brewing is an art as well as a
science. In my articles (and book) I try to present as round of a
picture as I can on the recommended best practices for brewing, and
give the reasons why those practices are recommended. Rather than being
annoyed, as in "you didn't listen to me!" I am pleased that people take
the information with a grain of salt and trust their own experiences
too.
I guess this turned off on a bit of a tangent, but I wanted to get
across the point that even though I am a rather public figure on the
HBD, I am not a brewing god; there are lots of more experienced, more
skilled, more technical brewers out that I still learn from. It's why I
have read the HBD every day for the last ten years.
***
Anyway, onto the copper post. Sven wonders about a post he ran across
that said, "What JBM is trying to say is that if you use any bleach
type agent to clean
your copper, you will ruin your copper, and it will become soluble and
dangerous levels of copper may end up present in your wort, which could
cause kidney failure, and you might die."
No. This is like saying that if you swim in the ocean you will get
bitten by a shark and may die.
Copper can be dissolved into the wort, but the first roadblock to Death
is the fact that the fermentation will be impaired if there is really a
significant amount of dissolved copper. If you pursued drinking this
batch and subsequent batches, you would notice that a) it would taste
bad, b) your hair and fingernails would turn green, and c) you would be
experiencing other reversible health problems like fatigue, etc. If you
managed to imbibe a really high dose of copper, you would experience
nausea and vomiting. Perhaps a better analogy is death by a multitude
of leeches, because it is going to take a bit of indifference on your
part to actually die of copper poisoning from brewing.
***
For some batch sparge instructions, see my article Skip the Sparge in
the May 2002 of Brew Your Own, or go to
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/HTB_update.pdf and read pages 13-17.
Note that my definitions of Batch Sparge and No-Sparge differ from
other peoples in some cases. I consider Batch Sparging to be where you
add your sparge water in two or more big batches (ex. 3 gallons each)
rather than running it in continuously thru a Phil's Sparge Arm or a
pitcher at a time. No-Sparge I consider to be a single batch sparge so
to speak -- You conduct your mash with the usual mash water ratio, but
before taking any runnings or doing the recirculation step, you add all
of your sparge water at once, stir, and drain to your boiling pot.
Hope this helps,
John
John Palmer
john@howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:50:05 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.us>
Subject: Re: beer and kids
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 at 17:50:48 +0200, Braam Greyling
<braam.greyling@azoteq.com> wrote:
> Some time ago there were a few discussions about beer and kids.
>
> Have a look at this link:
>
> http://www.draymans.com/Articles/kids.php
Starting when I was 4 or 5, if Dad was having a beer and if I asked, he'd
pour maybe an ounce or so into a cup. Later, when my parents started
getting into wine, they'd again pour a small amount. I think I turned out
OK. :-)
(I actually didn't have much interest in the stuff for a few years...didn't
even buy my first six-pack until I was 23. The day I turned 21 was no big
deal...kinda like turning 18, really, which in turn was no different than
turning 31 earlier this year. Big-whoopy-doo. I think we have some
unnatural hangups about alcohol (vestiges of Prohibition and the
"temperance" movement before that, maybe?). Treating it as some sort of
forbidden fruit, I think, is what leads to such dangerous nonsense as "21
for 21" and other "coming-of-age" rituals. While I'm not 100% sure you'd
want an 8-year-old going up to the bar and coming back with a pint, I think
a law that says parents can't give their own kids alcohol while under their
supervision and control does more long-term harm than good.)
Scott Alfter
scott@alfter.us
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:27:41 -0600
From: thamric@attglobal.net
Subject: Sanitizers
Greetings all -
Requesting some collective wisdom on the subject of sanitizers. I have
been using Iodophor sanitizer for some time with good results (assuming
it is rinsed promptly and thoroghly). Recently, my local supplier
stopped carrying Iodophor, and began carrying StarSan, an acid-based
sanitizer.
In my first experience, I found the StarSan to be a bit of a pain to
use, as it foams greatly, and leaves residual foam in my brewing vessels
which requires further rinsing. I am using the StarSan at a
concentration of 3/4 tbs per 5 gallons of water. Is this concentration
too high? Do others experience this problem? What says the collective
regarding products for sanitizing?
Tim Hamrick
Boise, ID
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:14:58 -0400
From: "Dan Listermann" <dan@listermann.com>
Subject: Kids and Beer
>Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:50:48 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling@azoteq.com>
>Subject: beer and kids
>Have a look at this link:
http://www.draymans.com/Articles/kids.php
Whenever any of our children asked to taste a beer, I am always happy to
offer one to them. They don't seem to see it as forbidden fruit. Our
youngest, Kurt, 14, has become an aficionado of mild ale, my house beer.
A disappointment is that the oldest, Phil, 22, drinks Bud, but it is not Bud
Light and he no longer turns his nose up at tasting my beers. On a positive
note, I have no reason to believe that any of the four ( the middle two are
young ladies) are getting into my beers without my permission.
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:44:03 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Batch sparge calc's
Something is puzzling me about batch sparge calculations. Why is it
necessary to create a recipe using one set of assumptions and then scale it
up using various scaling factors. Why doesn't it just work to lower the
efficiency settings in the original recipe calculations... it seems like
that ought to give the correct quantities, but I am probably missing
something.
Thanks for any help.
mike
Monetery, CA
At 12:42 AM 9/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Subject: RE: How to get the correct volume and Sp. Gr. batch sparge
>
>Several have asked about the calculations for batch sparging.
>I've always used the one listed on this website:
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: gregbrews@webtv.net (Greg Peters)
Subject: grain pests (saw tooth beetles)
greetings everybody
I am a new member of hbd and am curious if there are any remedies for
eliminating or controling grain pests.
It seems as though I had a fair ammount of grain stored for about a year
in a spare igloo cooler and the bugs found it!
I have vacuumed all around the storage area and cleaned averything. Is
there a good insect spray specially for
weevils and other grain pests?
Any help or info would be appreciated,
Thanks,
Greg Peters
El Cajon, Ca.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte@yahoo.com>
Subject: fixing a sluggish fermentation
Hi All,
I've done a bad thing and underpitched
a 1.080 stout (its a long story--
but I relaxed and had a few too many
homebrews while making a 1.050
porter). After three days I'm still
above 1.045. But while making
up the 2L starter that I should have
done in the first place, I
ran across an interesting idea on
a wine making website.
http://www.vinquiry.com/pdf/
METHODTORESTARTSTUCKFERMENTATION2002.pdf
The basic idea is to make up a second
starter, but rather than just
dump it into the stuck carboy, to add
portions of the stuck
fermentation to the starter, say a
gallon at a time, and then
wait until it attenuates halfway
before adding the next gallon.
This way the yeast do not have
to reproduce to the usual
billion/liter.Plato, they can
ferment in a much lower gravity
(but high alcohol) environment.
What do y'all think of the idea?
Has somebody tried this? Is it
worth trying, or shall I just
pitch my new starter? It makes a
lot of sense given what I've
read about incremental feeding
and high alcohol.
raj
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 16:39:02 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: bitterness from decoction
I was reading Steve's response yesterday to the reasons why a decocted
beer might be less bitter and I had a thought. I think there is
agreement that decocting a beer puts more tannins in the wort INITIALLY.
But these tannins get bound with other proteins in the wort and settle
out during the lagering process so that the final amount of tannins is
not presumptively different than in a non-decocted beer.
Could the alpha acids be precipitating out with the protein-tannin
complex in the decocted beer? From a ionic charge standpoint it might
make sense...
Just thinking out loud.
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:59:19 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli@indiana.edu>
Subject: Drinking Wort, Cold Break, Skimming Hot Break
Brewed a blond ale today and kept the part of the wort with too much
cold break in a pot to drink as is. It's a fairly bitter brew (~32IBU)
and may not satisfy everyone as a non-beer drink (SWMBO didn't really
like it) but it reminded me of malt drinks (from Europe) they have in
West Africa, such as Vitamalt. From the ingredients of some of these
drinks, they're really unfermented wort. In fact, for the fun of it, I
added a bit of 7UP to some wort and it tasted quite a bit like lemon
Vitamalt.
Then, I read the page on children and beer Braam just sent, and was
thinking about malt drinks for kids. Do some brewers offer unfermented
wort to their kids? Do the kids like it?
And what about drink large amounts of cold break? It's harmless, right?
Wait... No, I'm ok.
Speaking of break, do most people skim off hot break? I have a great
restaurant-style "skimmer" (Fr. "ecumoir") that I use to skim off most
of the hot break material before I incorporate bittering hops. Is this
a common practice? Does it help? I know it's supposed to be mostly
protein but I'd assume proteins could be good.
Thanks!
Alex, in Montreal
[555.1km, 62.8] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 23:11:12 -0400
From: "Christian Layke" <clayke@wri.org>
Subject: Pumps and astringency?
I recently bought a pump and have used it the last two beers I brewed.
Not coincidently, I suspect, they have both been atrocious--a strange
sourish, offensive mouthfeel. I've read about insufficient
recirculation causing astringency but haven't ever had the experience to
know what they were referring to. Now I think I know (although, it
could be an infection, though, as our basement is a mold breeding
ground) I haven't found a lot on this flavor in my books.
If it is astringecy, I recirculated but did have difficultly getting
the runoff to get and remain as clear as it did when I used the (very
slow) gravity powered sparge. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Can anyone share some successful pump transition experiences?
I am using a Sabco converted keg with a false bottom as my mash tun.
Thanks in advance,
Christian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:55:10 -0500
From: "Jeff Stith" <jttstith@earthlink.net>
Subject: Finings?
I haven't used a recipe that calls for unflavored gelatin as a "fining".
Found a spiced hard cider recipe that says to "fine with gelatin once cider
clears". This is in the secondary after two weeks. What does this do and
how do I use it? Do I just add dry gelatin powder to the secondary or mix
it with water? Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
Jeff S.
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4341, 09/05/03
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