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HOMEBREW Digest #4230
HOMEBREW Digest #4230 Sat 26 April 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
The Beer Triangle (was "Triangle Test and Acid") ("pddey")
Re: Sealing a conical lid - Why Bother? (Phil Sides Jr)
starch haze (Robert Sandefer)
RE: Sealing a conical (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Re: triangle tests, statistics and lies (Larry Bristol)
good beer in Eastern KY/Western West Virginia? ("chris lee")
HBD: First brew: Bottles (K.M.)" <kmuell18@visteon.com>
Bottle source (Randy Ricchi)
beer in Tabor CZ. ("Dr. Pivo")
More Triangle ("A.J. deLange")
Frustrated Brian (Michael Fross)
coffee on tap??? ("jim williams")
yeast labs weizen yeast and stats (Robin Griller)
Re: yeast infections (Michael Hartsock)
witbier recipe (Marc Sedam)
Kegging Newbie (Caryl Hornberger Slone)
infection problem ("John Misrahi")
Re: coals to Newcastle (Stan Burnett)
Dr. Pivo's thing :) (Jesse Stricker)
RE: more on fuel alcohol ("Mike Sharp")
Astringency (Leo Vitt)
screw top bottles (Leo Vitt)
A Couple of Questions ("Val J. Lipscomb")
Website for Draft System Balancing? ("na br")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:12:05 -0600
From: "pddey" <pddey@netzero.net>
Subject: The Beer Triangle (was "Triangle Test and Acid")
I posted in HBD4226 a query for tips on conducting a triangle test to
determine whether the "red ale" several members of our club (The High Plains
Drafters) brewed from the same recipe could be distinguised consistently
from one another. A wealth of excellent information was posted in response
in this forum (promised toast tipped NOW) and I intend to provide a full
summary of the results (and how I arrived at them) after May 3 when we
conduct our evaluation.
Especially interesting was 4 different individuals suggesting 4 different
statistical approaches. That cat gonna be bare when I get done wit it!
Reminds me of my thesis defense: "Yes, Paul, uhmm, would you please explain
to us why you chose to apply Sheffe's test?" Awkward silence. "Uh, well.
Uhhh. Hm., lets see. Oh yeah., well, you see, there are several options for
post-hoc analysis following a significant ANOVA and I
chose....blah....blah....blah. They let me out of the room and I ain't going
back.
P.S. 47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Paul in Cheyenne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:13:26 -0400
From: Phil Sides Jr <altoidman@altoidman.com>
Subject: Re: Sealing a conical lid - Why Bother?
"Don Van" <dvanv@earthlink.net> writes:
>Fermentors don't have to be 100% sealed from the outside environment. If
>you ever go on a tour of Anchor Brewery in San Francisco, you will see
>fermentors that are shallow open air fermentors. This is not the only
>brewery that uses open fermentors.
While I don't disagree that open fermentations can be a great thing, I
wanted to point out that those coolships at Anchor are sealed in a positive
pressure room with HEPA air filtration. I am sure there is an uber geek
out there reading this who does have this setup at home so I'll stop short
of saying no homebrewer does ;-) I can say for certain that this
homebrewer doesn't and my house is not microbially clean enough for me to
be convinced open fermentations are a good idea for me. In case you are
wondering, I developed this opinion experimenting with agar plates open to
atmosphere in my fermentation area.
Phil Sides, Jr.
Silver Spring, MD
Need a good laugh today?
Join Altoidman's Humor List - http://www.altoidman.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:03:50 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor@vzavenue.net>
Subject: starch haze
In Digest #4224, I posted a set of questions that went unanswered. :(
Assuming the Group has no answer for those questions, I will ask a related
one:
Beyond aesthetics, why is a starch haze bad/undesirable?
Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:47:59 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Sealing a conical
Mark Vernon suggests purchasing a replacement oring from one of the
suppliers who sell the conical fermenters to seal the lid.
I have a TMS 12.2, and bought the gasket from BBMB. It is a split tube,
sealed together at the end to form a ring. It slips over the edge of the
hopper. However, during fermentation, I get no bubbles out of the airlock
unless there is a weight of 15+ lbs on the lid, so it doesn't provide an
airtight seal. I haven't devised a hold-down for my lid, but I am no longer
sure that it is necessary. I've fermented 5 batches in it now, and even in
the case that the beer was left in the conical for 4+ weeks, they all turned
out quite good.
I managed to ferment a lager in it for the first time in February - it is
located in my unheated garage, and by putting an insulated box over it I was
able to maintain 50F. Last week I brewed a CAP, and finished my chilling
system at the same time. I installed some 2" PVC pipe and a small fan that
pulls cold air from my cold box (a thermostatically controlled freezer
extension) into the fermenter chamber, and returns it back to the box. The
fan runs continuously, and I need to keep the extension box at about 46F to
keep the fermenter chamber at 50F. Later this summer I will rearrange my
setup and add another Johnson controller to control the fan, running the
fermenter chamber directly off my freezer.
One thing to be aware of when dropping yeast out of the dump valve is
suckback in the airlock. When I'm going to open the dump valve, I pull out
the airlock and place an alcohol soaked cotton pad over the airlock hole.
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN
State of Franklin Homebrewers http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:57:02 -0500
From: Larry Bristol <larry@doubleluck.com>
Subject: Re: triangle tests, statistics and lies
On Thursday 24 April 2003 6:12 pm, -S wrote:
> After the an excellent posts by Frank Tutzauer, AJ deLange and Larry
> Bristol I pulled mine, but Larry of the iso8859 font writes ...,
>
>> A statistical curiousity about the Chi Square test is that it cannot
>> be used to PROVE anything; all it can do is DISPROVE something.
>> That something is called the "null hypothesis"
>
> WHOA THERE, Larry. Chi square (and also the Z binomial test
> which Frank correctly mentions) disproves nothing !!
Did I not say that liars can figure? :-)
- --
Regards,
Larry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 05:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "chris lee" <chris_lee@beer.com>
Subject: good beer in Eastern KY/Western West Virginia?
i need help! i'm on an extended field assignment with FEMA in Eastern
Kentucky helping local communities recover from the big winter ice storm
in february and i'm having trouble finding craft-brewed beer. does anyone
have any leads? i'm stationed in Morehead, KY but i think i'll be moving
to Ashland, KY (near Huntington, West Virginia). any info. would be
appreciated!
thanks,
~~Chris
"Maybe, just once, someone will call me 'sir' without adding, 'you're
making a scene.'"Homer J. Simpson
- ----------
Why be boringcat@badjob.com when you can be beerlover@beer.com?
Sign up for Beer Mail today - http://www.beer.com !
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:41:52 -0400
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18@visteon.com>
Subject: HBD: First brew: Bottles
Ryan,
Where are you located? If anywhere near Canton, MI (suburbs of Detroit),
you can swing by my house and pick up a few cases. Or by them from the
local home brew store (I recommend Adventures in Homebrewing in Dearborn,
also online at .http://homebrewing.org/, although I didn't see bottles on
their online catalog, I know they sell them there.)
Other alternatives are other online HB stores, local restaurants,
distributors, recyclers.
Kevin
Canton, MI
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ryan Neily < >
Subject: First Brew: Bottles?
I am about to be Bottling my first batch of Homebrew, and I have a
question about bottles. Can someone tell me a cheap place to get 48 or so
bottles?
Also, I read somewhere that it was a bad idea to use screw cap bottles.
Has anyone tried using IBC glas root-beer bottles? I figure I can drink a
case of root-beer (giving it to the kids) in the next three weeks and use
those if it's not a problem that they have screw type cap on them...
- --
Ryan Neily
ryan@neily.net
Random Quote:
A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on.
-- Carl Sandburg
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:53:09 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi@houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Bottle source
Ryan is wondering where to get bottles.
Ryan, just go to your local store and ask if you can pay the deposit on
a couple cases of empties. Make sure you don't get any that were used as
ash trays, and try to select ones with good boxes. In Michigan, the
deposit is ten cents per bottle, and 30 cents for the box.
I wouldn't go with screw-type bottles.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:46:54 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: beer in Tabor CZ.
Stan Burnett is a lucky dog.
The obvious answer you will be getting is that beer is so cheap and you
can get a great one, well.... not exactly around every corner... but
more likely before you reach the corner, and then even a better one once
you round the corner, that there's not much homebrewing incentive.
Having such a strong beer culture, you will, by way of local hounds be
able to search out the "best".
In one of my old "hangs", U Zlateho Tygra in Prague, it was common
knowledge that Tuesday was a better day than Wednesday to drink there...
because that was when they got the barrels delivered fresh..... you
stood outside just before three (had to get there early since 3/4 of
the stools were "reserved" for the local regulars), and could watch the
barrels get unloaded and lowered through the grate in the street. And
what was then serven inside was pure magic.
The significance of this, was that there were only very few pubs that
got the 50 litre barrel delivery, and the rest "bulk"....... and my son,
trust me, even the untrained can tell the difference. If we say that
the fresh barrell stuff was an order of magnitide better, and the bulk
delivered, which was in turn an order of magnitude better than the
bottled, you can imagine to which sights your taste buds can soar after
comparing with the shaken, warm stored, old surrogate that ends up as an
export.
Why this is relevant to Tabor, is that the new economic pressures that
have arrived since ol' Checho has finally gotten the "bear" off his
back, have change the brewing world radically there. Prazdroi (Urquell)
went through a radical modernisation in '93 as I recall, and while they
wisely retained a functioning remnant of the old brewery as a
"reference", it is an entirely different beer made in the new factory.
How this becomes relevant to you as a taster, is that they can mix and
match as they choose, and some customers continued to receive "the
original" original. (or "urquell urquell" or even "prazdroi prazdroi"
if you like).
And how does this long windedness take us to Tabor you may ask? Even
after the first time I walked back into the Tygra and saw that the head
not only looked different, and the cloying taste of lactic acid, and
obvious pasteurization had replaced my beloved masterpiece, I payed a
visit to Tabor, and lo and behold in a "monk" style restaurant, I was
served up that "tarry" rich, Saaz/diacetyl aroma explosion bomb.........
many, many, many times.
Nearly enough to make a grown man cry.
While there, you are close enough to Humpolic that you should be able to
find a Bernard. They have retained the traditional flavour profile, and
as a non pasteurised it remains that way. They have recently been bought
up by a Belgian concern, so I don't know if they are still toeing the
mark.
I won't even mention what you can find if you venture southwest., but
you WILL NOT be dissapointed.
What I think you will find in a longer stay in Czecho, is an entire
different definition of what beer is, evolving in your head. "Balance"
will no longer mean "whimpy", and "elegant" will not be an equivalent to
"lacking in character". You will understand the term "liquid bread" in
an intimate rather than jesting manner.
In short, well, yes, I'm jealous as hell.
As to homebrewing, I've never heard of it being done there.
This can have its advantages. Brewing is a proud tradition there, and
if you know your stuff, you can be admitted to that group. Being called
"brother" and "Sladek" by brewmasters there, and actually having them
want to know what little old me thought of a particular brew, has well,
not only given me that "fuzzy" feeling, but driven my urge to know more.
They respect people who love the art, and if you show a proper blend of
humbleness, interest, humour, and knowledge, you might just get a Carte
Blanche to poke your head everywhere, ask questions, and tap direct from
the lagering tanks. You can't learn that stuff any other way.
So while you might not be getting any direct homebrewing experience
there, you can learn a tonne, and probably more importantly, build up a
personal taste reference that will forever change your ideas about "what
kind of beer I want to make".
And when people suggest brewing techniques drawn from the modern
industry, that make the "clean taste of a lager", well, you don't have
to like me, start snickering and guffawing, but just gently smile, and
wistfully recall what you learned from the masters there, and that
filthy rich well balanced flavour they produced.
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:02:06 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel@cox.net>
Subject: More Triangle
I feel I should respond to a couple of things WRT to triangle tests.
First, Frank's comments about substituting the z distribution for the
binomial. While it is true that this should give sufficiently accurate
results for large N there is really no reason to use the approximation
unless you are doing the calculations by hand. I wouldn't mind doing the
difference test computation by hand but I certainly woudn't want to do
the preference test by hand for more than a few beers. Computer
subroutines don't much care whether they have to do a lot or a little
computation and are as happy computing the binomial coeffients of order
20 as they are when doing them for 5 or 6. With modern machines the time
required isn't an issue so I feel you might as well use the binomial
formula for all cases rather than add the condition test to the software
to make it switch to another method if N is above some value.
Now with respect to the experiment design. The panelists first job is to
find the odd beer by whatever means. In a case where the smell of the
beers is detectably different they've already done that though I suppose
you could argue that it's possible that taste and smell would lead to
different conclusions as to which is the odd beer. The procedure does
say "Decide which of the samples has and odor or flavor that is
different from the other two". A conclusion that A is odd based on smell
and B is different based on taste would have to be erroneous, of course,
but having erroneous results is definitely part of what the test is
about and ulitamately the panelist has to pick one criterion or the
other on which to base his choice. Just to be perfectly clear the
panelists are given the beers in randomized order. It is not a question
of the exprerimenter declaring beer B to be the smellier one and
instructing the panelist to taste it after tasting the other.
All the above is mooted by the fact that the procedure to be followed is
the procedure to be followed not because it is or isn't right but
because it is the procedure dictated by the ASBC. When you say "Beer B
was detectably different from Beer A to a confidence level of .01 and
preferred to a confidence level of .05 by a panel of 20 judges using MOA
Beer-30" that means that you followed the dictates of Beer-30 down to
the ruby colored glasses drained without contact with a flat surface. If
you didn't follow the detailed dictates of the procedure don't say you
did - state what the deviations were
. The MOAs are the result of years of work by ASBC subcommittees and
almost always involve substantial collaborative test programs. Thus,
right or wrong, things are done the way they are done for a reason. No
one says, of course, that you must adhere to the ASBCs test procedure
(or the EBCs or anyone elses for that matter) so long as you tell anyone
you share results with what you did. Further, you are free to write to
the ASBC offerning your opinion that the MOA is flawed. If they see
merit in your argument they will reconvene the committee and study the
question further and, should testing prove you right, adopt the change.
This particular MOA was issued in 1969 and revised in 1975.
Finally, Doc P's (whom we haven't seen much of lately) comment about
standardized confidence levels: The MOA does not explicitly recommend a
confidence level. The table in the MOA (I'll bet a 6-pack of your
favorite it's the one you got from Louis) lists values for confidence
levels of .05, .01 and .001.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:03:02 -0500
From: Michael Fross <michael@fross.org>
Subject: Frustrated Brian
> Brian Writes:
> I lost those 5 gallons, but that doesn't really bother me. What
> bothers me is that I'm tired of making terrible beer.
Hello Brian,
Here are a few of my thoughts.
- If you have never had an infection or other problems related to
sanitation then you are probably ok there (although the move you focus
on this the better).
- I recently moved to all grain brewing and it has improved my beer
dramatically. I mean Dramatically. And the first thing my brewing
partner said to me when we were done was, "Wow. It was that easy?" If
you need a hand, I'd be happy to help. I'm a big fan of batch sparging
and it has worked great over the last few batches. But I wouldn't
consider myself any sort of authority on the subject.
- The best way is probably to hook up with someone that makes great
beer and offer to help him/her. This will let you ask a million
questions and see how they do it. In my experience, brewers love to
talk about brewing. Check out any local homebrew clubs or homebrew
shops. You can also search news groups or HBD archives and see if
anyone is in your area.
Let me know if I can help.
Cheers,
Frosty
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:05:27 -0400
From: "jim williams" <jimswms@cox.net>
Subject: coffee on tap???
so, I have a bakery that sells ALOT of Iced coffee in the summer. The natural
solution was to put it on tap, much like I use at home. ie: corny keg, co2
lines, faucet tap. It works great, only, occasionally, we get a funky taste in
it. It's almost prickly like carbonation. However, the keg is emptied and
cleaned daily, and is kept at room temp all day long.
Any ideas about possible problems here? This is too good of a setup to abandon
at this point. I can't figure out what the problem is. Is there something in
the coffee (very acidic, of course) not kosher with stainless and plastic?
what about room temp coffee?
cheers,
jim
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:01:23 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: yeast labs weizen yeast and stats
Hi all,
Apologies if I've misunderstood the question re yeast labs' weizen yeast,
but I asked Dan McConnel about it and he said yckc a50 was the same yeast,
so I ordered a slant of it. It's sitting in my fridge, hasn't been used.
It's almost 1 year old, so not sure if the yeast is still viable, but if
this is indeed the yeast, I could try culturing it up for other people...
re the stats and triangle tests, as a social scientist, my own inclination
would be to be very careful about reaching any conclusions using
inferential statistics when you don't have a random sample, so I would be
inclined to not reach strong conclusions on the basis of these tests...I
know, 'robust' statistics and all that, but really the probability
distributions are based on random samples, which I doubt any of us will
have! Add in the tiny samples....
Robin
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: yeast infections
I agree whole heartedly. Unless you directly
inoculate the vagina, such a yeast infection is a
veritable impossibility. Furthermore, evidence
suggests that live brewers yeast (because it is a
beneficial part of the natural flora and it
beneficially affects vaginal pH) helps prevent "bad"
yeast infections.
As a matter of fact, douching (sp?) with lactobacti
(i.e. yogurt) is a home remedy to solve yeast
infections. Both lactobacti and S. cerevisiae are
considered beneficial natural flora. For either to be
a source of serious infection, you would have to be
severely immuno-compromised.
One other thing that i will add:
If S. cerevisiae can with stand the acidity, pH,
temperature, and then manage to ferment the more
complex sugars remaining in the lower GI and
Vagina....
then we are being far to anal retentive with our
pitching methods.
Michael
University of Missouri-Columbia Medical School
Columbia, MO
=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:41:30 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: witbier recipe
David P. asks for a witbier recipe. I just made this one and love it.
It is more lightly spiced than most, but I don't like to be beaten over
the head with the spices either. If you want a more heavily spiced
version, triple the amount of coriander.
_________________________
FOR 10 GALLONS
10lbs German 2-row pils malt
7.5lbs malted wheat (I know it should be unmalted...oh well)
1lb oat groats
Mash at 148F for one hour using a 1.5qt/lb water/grist ratio. Raise to
170F for mash out. Sparge with 175F water.
HOPS AND "OTHER" ADDITIONS
1oz Horizon (13%aa) pellets -- 60 mins
2 Whirlfloc tablets -- 20 mins (to help with protein break)
1oz bitter orange peel -- 10 mins
0.4oz freshly ground coriander -- 10 mins
1oz dried chamomile -- 0 mins
0.5oz Crystal pellets -- 0 mins
YEAST
Wyeast 3333 (one quart starter)
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:41 -0500
From: Caryl Hornberger Slone <chornberger10@comcast.net>
Subject: Kegging Newbie
Ok, so I like everyone else, hate to bottle. Especially, when its 10 or more
gallons. So I'm considering buying a cornelius kegging system. The
catch-22 is that I don't drink a lot of beer and I like variety in what I do
drink.
Is it possible to bottle and keg each batch. Maybe I cold just start making
6 gallon batches: keg 5 and bottle 1. I'd add sugar to prime the whole
batch. Anyone problems with priming in kegs? Are they hard to
clean/santitize?
But this still leaves the question, how long will a kegged beer last after
being tapped? Since it's filled with CO2, it should be a while. Lets say I
have a couple of kegs and I want to drink a glass or two from a different
keg each night. Is there any problem with tapping and untapping(?) a keg
over and over?
I wouldn't refrigerate the kegs since I don't have fridge room, I'll
probably make some sort of chiller to pump the beer through, unless the
additional length will create foam.
If anyone knows of a good FAQ for kegging that would answer all my
questions, please point me that way.
Thanks in advance for any info.
Caryl Hornberger Slone
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:24 -0400
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin@sprint.ca>
Subject: infection problem
Hi all,
After reading the recent thread, I am inclined to believe my once sterile
wort has developed a yeast infection! I brewed it up as usual, cooled it,
and poured it into a nice clean plastic bucket with a lid for safe keeping.
But 3 days later, i peeked inside and it has this weird foamy substance on
top. It is making all sorts of aromas, as well as a fizzing bubbling sound,
and , worst of all, upon tasting a sample, it tasted alcoholic!
Do I have a yeast infection? I'd hate to think all that nice wort will go to
waste.
;-p
John Misrahi
being a smartass in Montreal, Canada
[892, 63] Apparent Rennerian (km)
"Actually John it uses a very complex algorithm to determine your average
time between "Generate" clicks, and from that can it figures out how drunk
you are, and what styles of beer you prefer. Obviously, you prefer obscure
Belgians!" - Drew Avis
Seen on a tee shirt - "The internet is full. Go away!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:57:20 -0600
From: Stan Burnett <stanb@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: coals to Newcastle
Dave Burley wrote:
> Stan is doing the brewing equivalent of "carrying coals to Newcastle" by
> homebrewing in the Czech republic.
Try finding a decent ale! ;-)
Stan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19@duke.edu>
Subject: Dr. Pivo's thing :)
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Dr. Pivo sez:
> I would also note that his "imbibing, through the digestive tract, and
> then innocluating the vagina" theory, is not supported by the evidence
> he sites.... brewery and bakery workers. These people aren't eating and
> drinking the stuff, they're "bathing" in it ..... and may not wash their
> hands before every visit to the toilet...... of course I ALWAYS do....
> I've never really understood the rational behind washing "afterwards".
> My hands are continually exposed to all kinds of grotty things from old
> timber to garden dirt, both before and after urination..... I'm trying
> to keep the OTHER thing clean. Let's get our priorities right!
Um, dude, if you're built like the rest of us, your "OTHER thing"
is already crawling with coliform bacteria from your gut. A bit of
imagination should reveal how they got there. You really should wash your
hands after using the toilet.
A quick experiment with growth media and, well, your thing, should
demonstrate this nicely. A triangle test will most likely be unnecessary.
Sorry to break it to you.
Obligatory Beer Post: I'm looking at a job at Dartmouth, in
Hanover NH. Any good beer stores or brewpubs? Is there a local homebrew
store? How about a homebrew club? Do people brew all winter? I'm living
in the South right now, so the concept of "winter" is still a little bit
odd.
Jesse
- --
Jesse Stricker jds19@acpub.duke.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:27:58 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: more on fuel alcohol
Yes, it's off topic, but not as gross as that other OT thread!
"-S" comments on fuel alcohol
"It costs some 35 to 45 kBTUs of heat energy to distill & process 1 gallon
of ethanol in a large scale very efficient operation. The 1 gal of EtOH has
about 84kBTU of energy. Simple stills probably cost quite a bit more than
the 84kBTUs to produce a gallon."
I suppose that depends on the cost and source of the energy. I don't pay
the same for all my energy. If I can convert a certain number of kBTUs from
a cheap source to a smaller number of kBTUs of another form to replace a
more expensive source, it sounds like a good deal to me.
-S also says: "Even commercial efficient plants are marginal when you add
all the energy costs including the whopping big energy cost of nitrogen
fertilizer to grow corn."
Well, your basic wastewater treatment plant generates a lot of nitrogen rich
fertilizer, that can't be used for food crops, but has to go somewhere.
It's a major problem for an activated sludge plant. But it would be fine
for fuel based crops. Lompoc WWTP uses their sludge to fertilize corn for
cattle feed at the local prison. You should see the size of those babies
(the corn, not the sludge piles--I don't want to get gross!).
-S concludes: "So ADM is basically converting fossil fuels into ethanol at
very modest energy gain and a significant added cost to the environment.
The most optimistic estimates are that 24% of the fuel ethanol energy is
gained, the most pessimistic estimates indicate that it's an energy loser."
Possibly. There's a lot to consider. It's hard to burn coal in your car.
But you can make methane, methanol, hydrogen, or whatever, and use that
instead. It's all about converting energy from one form to another. On a
commercial scale, ethanol production for fueling cars might not be
economical, but that's because petroleum is still pretty cheap. As an
oxygenator for gasoline, it works pretty well. And it's easier to make a
clean burning industrial facility than it is to clean up the fleet of cars
that would use it's product.
As a brewer, and on a small scale, I still say it's an interesting topic.
If I lived in the boonies, and had a cheap source of burnable energy (ie:
crop residue, wood chips, Budweiser six-pack cartons), I'd probably be doing
it. It *has* been done successfully, and commercially, under the right
circumstances. I saw an example in 1978. Yes, I'm sure that overall the
energy balance was negative, but they got the bulk of the energy for
free--sunlight to grow the cane.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Astringency
Brian says he is tired of making astringent beers and has addressed
sanitiation.
I think the most frequent cause of astringency is extracting tanins
from grain. I had problems with astringency for my first several
all grain batches. PH of the mash, PH of sparge water temp of
mash and sparge water and the amount of sparging, all can play a
role.
I base my targets for PH on Dave Miller's books.
Mash PH I can get to 5.2-5.4. Sparge PH about 5.8.
I accomplish this by adding acid. Food grade latic
acid can be found in most homebrew supply stores.
I prefer food grade phospheric acid. It doesn't take
as much. If you overdo it on latic acid, you can end up
tasting it in the beer.
Temp -- Down go over 170F. Mash, usually is below this. But
sparge water I put right on 170F.
Yes, decoction is another story.
Length of sparge: Don't over sparge.
It's not the length of time that is the question. As you go on
sparging, the wort extracted gets thinner and thinner. You can
measure the specific gravity to see this. When it hits 1.010,
stop collecting wort. Actually, I usualy run out of sparge water
before I reach that. I limit the sparge water to 5 gallons for a
5 gal batch.
Consider no sparge. Expecially on a partial mash, you are not wasting
that much by leaving some of your potential extract in the grain.
You need to seperate the liquid after the mash is completed from the
grain. That sounds a lot like the old steep the grain in a bag and
remove it before adding malt extract.
=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt@yahoo.com>
Subject: screw top bottles
Ryan asked about using twist off IBC root beer bottles.
I have seen a few screw top bottles used in homebrewing.
I think the brewer just missed the fact that it was a screw top.
Those particular beers sealed up fine, and carbonated.
Some of them were entered in competitions I was judging.
I made a note that the bottle was a screw top and left it
at that.
I think the seal might not be as reliable with the cappers
hombrewers use.
I have also used caps that say "twist to open". But since
they were put onto non-twist-off bottles, they don't twist off.
Yet, someone would try to twist them off.
Even twist off commercial beers are easier to open with a bottle
opener.
=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:29:51 -0500
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <vlipscomb@satx.rr.com>
Subject: A Couple of Questions
First,thanks for the Tap-a-Draft bottle replies. Seems
the consensus is to use a 3 liter soft drink bottle and
1 live cartridge with an empty one in the other holder.
Anything is preferable to the flimsy 6 liter bottles.
Question 1-What is the best size and length of copper
tubing to use in a HERMS?
Question 2-Can a HERMS be used,efficiently,for multiple step mashes by
using the temp control on the heat ex-changer and recirculating constantly?
I will post the consensus on these for the lurkers,like
me,who prefer to hide in the weeds.
Val Lipscomb
Brewing in San Antonio
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 03:45:54 +0000
From: "na br" <na_br@hotmail.com>
Subject: Website for Draft System Balancing?
I once had a cool link to a calculator that showed beer line length needed
to balance a draft system based on height to tap, P.S.I., etc. Has anyone
come across this site and if so could you post the URL?
Thanks, Nate in sunny S.V. AZ.
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4230, 04/26/03
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