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HOMEBREW Digest #4222
HOMEBREW Digest #4222 Wed 16 April 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: Target Hops (Jim Wilson)
Re: Tap-a-Draft Bottles, aeration (David Radwin)
RE: wyeast (John Schnupp)
re: Tap-a-Draft Bottles (John Schnupp)
RE: How do you aerate? ("Dan Gross")
low alcohol ale/kidney infection (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?=)
HOw to keep the stuff in the kettle ("Spencer W. Thomas")
Oxalate ("A.J. deLange")
RE: Cheap bottles (Michael Hartsock)
Sterling Hops (nlkanous)
Re: What's all that stuff in our beer!?! (Todd Goodman)
Target Hops ("Kevin Morgan")
turkey fryers (Nancy & George)
bittering hops - all the same? ("Hofmann, Chris")
Target hops ("Joseph Gerteis")
Newbie Lager Brewing (mhewitt)
Spirit of Free Beer XI (Andy) NSSC" <AndersonRW@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL>
misinformation (Wil)
aeration, and kegging directly after primary ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
Sterling Hops (Stephen Johnson)
RE;Weizen yeast ("Fred Scheer")
Re: SWMBO ("Fred Scheer")
RE:sterling hops ("Fred Scheer")
RE: How do you aerate? (Bill Tobler)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:17:04 -0700
From: Jim Wilson <jgwilson@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Target Hops
Pat Reddy wrote:
I am trying to recreate a recipe I made a few years ago using Target hops
but I'm having no luck finding them.
I buy mine at <www.steinfillers.com >.
Jim Wilson
o \o
__o /\ /
`\ <> `\ `> `\ >
(*)/ (*) (*)/ (*) (*)/ (*)
I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:35:04 -0700
From: David Radwin <dradwin@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Tap-a-Draft Bottles, aeration
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:35:56 -0500
> From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <vlipscomb@satx.rr.com>
> Surely someone makes a 6 liter PET bottle that'll work.
> I have used the 3 liter coke bottles and they are great
> but that wastes a lot of CO2. HELP!!!
Since you are lucky enough to live in an area that sells soda in 3L
bottles, try using 1 cartridge per 3L bottle instead of 2. It works for me.
Incidentally, I have to get my 3L bottles from trips to other states.
Does anyone happen to know of a store that sells them in the San
Francisco area?
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:13:40 +0000
> From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey@hotmail.com>
> Subject: How do you aerate?
> The second possibility are these impeller things that people attach to a
> drill: the Mix-Stir Aerator and the Fizz-X Aerator. I'd never heard of
> those before I saw them on a web page:
>
> http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/2,1325.html
I used to use a cheap ($3?) plastic mash paddle I bought at LHBS. I cut
off the end of the handle and chucked in my 1/2" drill. If your drill is
smaller, you could cut or sand down the end of the handle to size.
Anyway, it seemed to aerate excellently.
David in Berkeley CA
- --
David Radwin
news@removethispart.davidradwin.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: wyeast
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
>I use 750mL wine bottles, but I'm thinking of
>switching to a jim beam 1/2 gal bottle. Good and
>heavy with a handle.
Why not go for a 4L table wine jug? That's an even bigger starter.
I haven't brewed in almost a year. I'm not sure when I will brew again. I
guess I'm on sabbatical. When I was brewing regularly, I used a wine jug.
Kept it stored filled with iodaphor. You can check out of pictures of it and
my stirrer at http://www.home.earthlink.net/~johnschnupp/starter/starter.htm
=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Tap-a-Draft Bottles
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <vlipscomb@satx.rr.com>
Subject: Tap-a-Draft Bottles
>Surely someone makes a 6 liter PET bottle that'll work.
>I have used the 3 liter coke bottles and they are great
>but that wastes a lot of CO2. HELP!!!
So why would a 3L bottle use more CO2 than a 6L bottle? It takes the same
amount of CO2 to carbonate 6L of beer be it in one 6L bottle or two 3L bottles.
=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:57:50 -0400
From: "Dan Gross" <degross@starpower.net>
Subject: RE: How do you aerate?
Dave Larsen asks about aeration techniques
Dave,
I tried an aquarium pump for a while but I didn't like all the foam it
produced. I was probably letting it run too long without enough head space
in the carboy but it seemed to foam over pretty quickly. I switched to a
pure oxygen aerating system a couple of years ago. The stone, hose and
regulator kit is available at various places on the web and homebrew shops.
You buy a small bottle of O2 from the hardware store that lasts for quite a
few batches. Aeration takes about a minute and there is not as much
foaming. The kit comes with a chart giving you an idea of about how long to
aerate.
Dan Gross
Olney, Md
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:18:23 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Alex=20Lawton?= <a_w_lawton@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: low alcohol ale/kidney infection
John Fraser asked about a recipe for a low alcohol
ale. One of my favourites is a half strength pale ale.
For this I use
1 cane pale LME
12 oz medium DME
3 oz goldings (1 for 60, 1 for 15 and 1 for 5)
Irish Moss for 15 mins
This usually gives 4 UK gallons (5 US) OG 1032-1035 FG
1005-1008 (not sure what alcohol that gives)
1 week primary, 2 secondary both at 15C
This is perfect to knock back whilst sitting in the
garden. Strictly speaking its not an english session
bitter, too pale and hoppy for that. When I want one
of those I substitute crystal malt for the DME and use
1 oz fuggles and 1 oz goldings.
On a different matter - does anyone know anything
about kidney infections and homebrew? A few weeks ago
SWMBO got a kidney infection 24 hours after drinking
some scrumpy cider I Made. I drank half of the bottle
with her and was unaffected, there were also no
unusual off tastes I could detect. No one else who
tried the cider was similarly affected. Am I innocent?
Alex Lawton
Winchester UK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:56:24 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer@umich.edu>
Subject: HOw to keep the stuff in the kettle
One word: Whirlpool.
If you stir the wort so that it forms a whirlpool, and then let it slow
to a stop naturally, you will find that almost all of the hops and trub
form into a cone in the center of the kettle. If your drain is at the
edge, then you can drain off almost-clear wort. I've got a picture of
my kettle with such a cone, after having racked off most of the beer so
you can really see it well.
http://hubris.umich.jstor.org/~spencer/images/whirlpool_cone.jpg
=Spencer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:17:56 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel@cox.net>
Subject: Oxalate
One of the reasons typically listed for having a healthy calcium level
going into the mash tun is in order to be sure that enough makes it
through the entire brewing process into the beer to insure that calcium
oxalate will precipitate. So presumably if you follow this advice and
then filter or allow for settling your beer should be oxalate free.
My uncle, who has had trouble with stones, has been told all beer is
laden with oxalates and to avoid it like the plague.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:22:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Cheap bottles
The cheapest bottles are the free ones at the
recycling center. They will either let you go in and
carry a couple of bags out or sell them to you very
very cheap by the pound.
Nearly all my bottles came into my possession that
way. Usually regional brewery bottles are the best,
they tend to be the heaviest and the labels usually
come out easy. See that no smoker has ashed in to the
bottle and an overnight soaking in a 5% bleach
solution is suffiient to clean and usually remove
lables with minimal scrubbing.
mike
one-eyed pico-brewing
=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:25:10 -0400
From: nlkanous@netscape.net
Subject: Sterling Hops
Good Morning,
Doug Marion asks about Sterling hops. Well Doug, the Classic American
Pilsner that I qualified for the MCAB with last year was made entirely with
Sterling hops. How do Sterling hops compare to Saaz?
Hmmm...they're pretty close but not the same. First of all, if you try to
use similar amounts for flavor / aroma, you're getting more bitterness from
those additions also. My current incarnation of the CAP is on tap with
nothing but Sterling hops. It's more bitter than I'd like. The aroma and
flavor of the Sterling hops is close but not quite as "soft" maybe? I'd
say that these are a bit more resinous than Saaz, but it could have
something to do with the level of bitterness of the beer.
All in all, I'm quite happy with the Sterling hops as a substitute for
Saaz in my pilsner. I'll probably switch back and forth as I continue
making pilsners...one with Saaz, one with Sterling....until I get it just
right.
Go for it, my experience with Sterling hops has been good and if qualifying
for the MCAB in the pilsner category with an "all Sterling" beer is any
indicator of whether they are appropriate, then I guess it's a reasonable
hop to use.
Good luck with the Sterlings.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:44:44 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tsg@bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: What's all that stuff in our beer!?!
In HBD #4221, Omar <omarandbecca@visi.com> wrote:
> I got a new wort kettle, converted keg from Sabco, and boiled
[SNIP]
> Anyone have any suggestions on what I should do to keep
> that junk in the kettle?
I also boil in a Sabco converted keg and use the bulkhead to draw off
the boiled wort.
However, I have a false bottom in my boil kettle and always brew with
some whole hops or plugs, even if I have some pellets as well.
The whole hops tend to make a nice filter bed on the false bottom and I
don't get much junk carried over into the primary.
I also rack off the primary into a secondary about a week into the
fermentation.
Todd
Getting his I-beam and hoist set up in Westford. MA
[630.3, 84] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:58:31 -0400
From: "Kevin Morgan" <kevin.morgan2@verizon.net>
Subject: Target Hops
Northernbrewer has target pellets available
>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:16:14 -0500
>From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy@mavtech.cc>
>Subject: Target Hops
>I am trying to recreate a recipe I made a few years ago using Target
hops
>but I'm having no luck finding them.
>Can anyone recommend a suitable substitute hop to Target? Thanks.
>Pat Reddy
>MAVERICK Technologies
>Pat.reddy@mavtech.cc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:13:14 -0400
From: Nancy & George <homsweet@voicenet.com>
Subject: turkey fryers
We recently purchased a turkey fryer/burner combo at Lowe's for $25,
pre-season sale. They're now up to $30 (it pays to think ahead!) but have an
enamel on steel 30 qt. pot with a good burner. Threw enough heat out to melt
a good space in the driveway during the President's Day weekend snow
storm...if you keep your feet warm, anything is possible.
Nancy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:12:37 -0500
From: "Hofmann, Chris" <Chris.Hofmann@camtronics.com>
Subject: bittering hops - all the same?
Went to my local homebrew store recently to pick up batch ingredients.
Actually, and sadly, my supplier of the last five years had closed down so I
was going to the "other guy".
The 60 minute bittering hops I had spec'd for my brew were Galena. In the
past for the same brew I had used Centennial.
This guy lectured me on the fact that in the end, all bittering hops were
the same. By the time you boil 'em for 60 minutes, there ain't no difference
in flavor. All your doing is extracting bitterness, he said.
He only carried one variety, Nugget, so he could always ensure freshness.
That's the most important thing, he said. He said I wouldn't be able to tell
any difference.
I was skeptical. But what choice did I have? I bought the Nugget.
Made the batch and guess what? I can tell a difference.
What do you all think of his argument? Is there any merit?
-Chris Hofmann
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540@elvis.com>
Subject: Target hops
Hi,
Pat Reddy asked about substitutes for Target hops.
Well, if you like Target, you might not have to
substitute at all. Northern Brewer (the store) stocks
Target, and I imagine they get this through one of the
big suppliers, so I know it is available. Failing
that, Northern Brewer hops might work well as as a
substitute; Horizon or Nugget might work well
too.
I've used Target (and NB) in place of Horizon, though
not the other way round. I've only used these as
substitutes for bittering though -- you might want to
go with Goldings or Progress or something like that for
flavor/aroma additions.
Here's what the Northern Brewer website has to say
about Target:
Typical alpha: 7.0 - 9.0%. Target is the most widely
grown English hop variety. Bread as a cross between
Northern Brewer and Kent Goldings, it is an all-purpose
English hop useful for both bittering and aroma.
Best,
Joe Gerteis
Minneapolis MN
- -------------------------------------------------
Get your free @Elvis e-mail account at Elvis.com!
http://www.elvis.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:06:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: mhewitt@publicnetworking.org
Subject: Newbie Lager Brewing
I'm planning to brew a batch of Maerzen/Oktoberfest and, being an
inexperienced lager brewer, have a few questions about mashing, cold
fermentation and lagering:
1. Mashing: If I use German Pilsner malt is it necessary to do a protein
rest or is it just a good idea?
2. Chilling/Pitching: I have a refrgerator and controller and will be
able to ferment amd lager at proper temps but am not sure how to
get the process started.
My immersion chiller will not chill the wort to fermentation temp.
Should I:
1. Chill the wort to fermentation temp in a holding tank
and then rack, into a primary fermentor, aerate and pitch a
chilled yeast starter? It seems to me that if I do this
I'd be inviting unwanted microbes to dinner by extending the
lag time during the chilling.
OR
2. Chill as much as possible with my imersion chiller,
aerate and pitch yeast and put the wort in the fridge.
This would reduce the lag but things may start too warm.
3. Finally lagering: Should I rack at the end of primary fermentation
and bulk lager for 6 or 8 weeks and then inject new yeast at bottling.
OR
Can I prime and bottle at the end of secondary fermentation as I do for
ales and lager in the bottle
Thanks to the list for lots of great info on brewing!
Mike Hewitt
Kansas City, MO
- -----------------------------------------
This email was sent using SquirrelMail.
"Webmail for nuts!"
http://squirrelmail.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:13:38 -0400
From: "Anderson Robert W (Andy) NSSC" <AndersonRW@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Spirit of Free Beer XI
Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) would like to take this opportunity
to invite you to enter Spirit of Free Beer XI! Our annual homebrew
competition will be held May 17 at the Old Dominion Brewing Company in
Ashburn, Virginia. Once again, Spirit of Free Beer will be a qualifying
event for the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB).
Last year, we exceeded our expectations with over 400 entries. This year we
will continue our tradition of offering the finest prizes to entrants,
including homebrew shop gift certificates, brewerania, and opportunities to
brew your recipe at local brew pubs. For judges and stewards we offer our
usual fine lunch fare and a rewarding experience amongst some of the best
beer judges and beer folk on the east coast.
Our window for entries into this year's event is from Saturday, April 26
until Friday, May 9 with entries also be accepted at the BURP meeting on
Saturday, May 10.
Information can be found on our Web Page at
http://www.burp.org/events/sofb/2003/. If you have any questions on the
competition, feel free to contact the organizers at events@burp.org.
Registration for judging can be done through our judge coordinator at
judges@burp.org
Stewards can register at stewards@burp.org
We hope you are able to help us this year by entering a beer or coming out
to judge or steward.
FREE BEER!!!!
Tom Cannon
Betsy Kepler
Spirit of Free Beer XI Organizers
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:15:01 GMT
From: Wil@thebeermanstore.com
Subject: misinformation
Jeff stated
>I am sure that this is a bit of misinformation that keeps getting
>repeated. I've seen other examples.
I have a few example..perhaps others have some too.
1) Canadian beer is stronger.
2) If beer gets warm after being cold it will "go bad".
2a) If beer gets warm after being cold it will "skunk".
3) I don't like ales, they are to dark".
4) If you sell beer you must be able to get ANY beer in the world and
sell it to me.
5) I get drunker faster when drinking draft beer and not bottle/can
beer.
6) I get a bigger hangover when I drink draft beer and not bottle/can
beer.
(both have to do with people drink MUCH more when drinking draft
beer over bottles/cans)
7) It has that import smell (I didn't make this up)
8) Bock beer is from the bottom of the barrel/fermentor and only comes
out during spring cleaning at the brewery.
9) Will you fill my empty keg with bud/miller/coors for me ( I get
this daily people..and they really want me to hook it up to a
bud/miller/coors tank and fill it for them, I asked...)
10) Export33 (or any other asian beer) is made with Formaldehyde.
And last but not least...
11) Yuengling and fat tire are the two BEST beers in the world!
(only because we can't get them in South Carolina)
Wil Kolb
The Beer Man
Plaza at East Cooper
607 B Johnnie Dodds Blvd
Mt. Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084
www.thebeermanstore.com
Wil@thebeermanstore.com
God bless America!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:44:10 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson@hotmail.com>
Subject: aeration, and kegging directly after primary
Dave Larsen is wondering how the rest of the world aerates their wort. I
still have not hooked up the little bernz-o-matic O2 cylinder as cranking up
the fizz-x seems to do such a good job. Turns 5 gallons of wort into about
7.5 gallons of Beer Julius in about 2 minutes. I also add yeast nutrient at
this point and then dump in a quart starter after. Lag times are rarely
more than 3-4 hours.
I use a cordless 18 volt drill that has been liberally sprayed (but not
inside the vents)with StarSan. Doesn't seem to have wrecked anything yet,
unless you count the time that I let it get too close to the wort surface
and it bathed my basement in stout splatter.
On another note, Pat helped clear up why I was having problems posting, as
one of my lines finished with the word *end* and triggered a glitch with the
server where the line got deleted. So there - I'm not insane after all.
The short question of my previous post in question is whether anyone has
tried transfering to a corny keg directly from the primary, priming with a
little less sugar and letting it finish and carbonate in one step.
Does the small amount of yeast run the risk of off flavours from autolysis,
or is this about the same as in a normal bottle priming/keg priming?? I've
shortened a couple dip tubes 1" and am trying it with an irish red ale and
wyeast 1084, just wondering if I will need to transfer or if I can leave it
as is and just drink it.
Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918, 298) Miles Apparent Rennerian
Vancouver, BC, Canada.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:06:14 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <sjohnson3@comcast.net>
Subject: Sterling Hops
Doug Marion (from some undisclosed location) wonders about Sterling
hops. I did a beer with these last summer with the purpose of making a
very light beer to have available for samples promoting our club at a
local beer festival. I needed to ferment it quickly, and also didn't
want to take up a whole lot of a brew day by doing an all-grain batch.
So I did a short boil extract batch, cutting down the boil to 45 min.
Some whole Saaz (2 oz of 2.8 alpha) and pellet Sterling (1 oz of 6.2
alpha) hops went in at the 30 min. mark (counting down), and then I
followed up with some more Saaz (2 oz of 2.8 alpha) at the 5 min. mark
before shutting off and chilling.
Members of our local club liked it, as did the festival-goers (empty keg
at the end of the day), but our experienced club member tasters
commented on the "grassy" character that this beer had. I attributed it
to the Sterling hops, although with a typical lagering process, this may
have faded over time. In my case, the beer went from kettle to keg in
about 5 weeks time using Wyeast 1056 slurry from one of our local
brewpubs, Boscos (Thanks, Fred!). After the initial ferment, I did crash
cool it before racking into a keg, and had it sitting in the keg for
nearly 4 weeks at 34F. I probably will give Sterling hops another try
with a true lager yeast and a pilsner malt based wort in the future.
Just one data point...
Steve Johnson
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:29:42 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads@msn.com>
Subject: RE;Weizen yeast
The question about 4 Vinyl Guaiacal is more complicated
than you think. I presented a paper in 1989 (I'm not sure
anymore) at the MBAA Convention in Monterey, Mexico,
about production of Light Beers produced by certain amounts of
adjuncts and fermented with different strains of lager yeast.
Part of the analysis performed for the paper was the analysis
of 4 VG. Not wanting to go to deep into the subject,
I can tell you that with increased adjunct levels, the 4 VG also
increased. I found that at levels of 20%, the 4 VG level started
to increase. I did the pilot brews on a 15 gallon pilot system
at my time in F'muth, MI.
Second question if they all use the same yeast for Weizenbier,
NO, I don't think so. If you call DOEMENS or WEIHENSTEPHAN in Munich,
you get a list of available WEIZENBIER yeast to select from.
Fred Scheer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:33:22 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads@msn.com>
Subject: Re: SWMBO
Jeff:
ONLY thinking about the subject makes me mad; because..
a 1960s movie with UA; John Campbell ..I will tell
LINDA what type of movies you watch. Man are we getting old????
Fred
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:42:41 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <FHopheads@msn.com>
Subject: RE:sterling hops
Doug:
I used STERLING Hops (whole hops) in some of
our casks (Only one's in a while) only to see the
impact of the hop character on certain beers (ales).
So far, I can tell you I'm not impressed; in Pale ales
and 3 Lagers I did not got the expected flavor profile.
I just finished with a 5 gal Pils(n)er, finish hops
Sterling; and I'm disappointed about the hop flavor.
Maybe somebody else has a different experience????
Fred Scheer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:44:23 -0500
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: How do you aerate?
Dave Larsen is asking about how we aerate our wort.
Dave, when I first started out, I used to just shake the jeebees out of the
carboy. (What is a "Jeebee anyway?) Then I tried the aquarium pump trick,
but got a lot of foam, and you had to aerate for a long time. Now I use
pure O2. You can get the small bottles at the hardware store for 7 or 10
dollars and a regulator and SS stone from one of the larger homebrew shops.
I hear they work good. I happen to have an O2/acedlyne rig in the garage,
and the O2 bottle does double duty in the brewery. Just one or two minutes
of bubbling and you're done. I made a SS wand that the SS stone attaches to
and it just takes a few minutes to get set up. I was going to build an
inline aerator like some people have, but they look like more work than what
I'm doing now.
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4222, 04/16/03
*************************************
-------
