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HOMEBREW Digest #4202
HOMEBREW Digest #4202 Sat 22 March 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
parti-gyle, and over carbonation ("greg man")
Gump Report- sankey wash heads ("Rob Moline")
re: AL wort chillers (Michael Hartsock)
RE: WLP500 Belgian Dubbel ("Sven Pfitt")
Re: Mounting Heater Element ("Dennis Collins")
Re: Wyeast 2278 experience -- strands hanging in beer ("Ryan Roecker")
Hops and Head, Acdioulated malt ("Dave Burley")
RE: Mounting Heater Element ("Joris Dallaire")
heater element mounting part II ("Reddy, Pat")
all-grain terminology (Brian Dube)
yeast starters (Brian Dube)
RE: Sankey valves and keg washing ("Mike Sharp")
Re: Gump re: Hops and Head ("-S")
Mash Mixer torque (Wade Hutchison)
PID controller & SSR (Doug Moyer)
Coordinating homebrew club events (Brew Wisconsin)
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:22:20 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer@hotmail.com>
Subject: parti-gyle, and over carbonation
For those who are interested in doing two beers at once, here are some of
my results. First I wanted to mention that both beers came out good. I was
surprised myself because I thought for sure the second beer would be of
inferior quality. However that was not the case at all.
I do have some suggestions though for anyone willing to try it. First off
it really isn't that much extra work. There are of course some things to
watch out for. For example after you run off the first beer the mash PH
seems to go up some, a little acid or specialty grains will help it get back
down to an acceptable range so you will not leech tannins into the second
beer.
If your equipment is not big enough to do two full beers you can make one
big beer and one small. I did a wee heavy 1.100 at 3 gallons, an then a
brown 1.040 at 5 gallons.
I would like to suggest not over sparaging the grain (stay around 30% more
than the mash water) if push comes to shove I think your better off using
water in the kettle to top up to boil volume. Keep some honey or sugar
around just in case you miss your target gravity.
I will brew this way when ever I can! It does take an extra hour or two
but, If you take your time when you brew then this is a good way to get 2
beers from 8 hours of work, Instead of 6 hours an just one.
Thanks for all who helped with my over carbonated wee heavy. I just
recapped them after chilling. Now I can actually open them with out safety
glasses ;)
They are still kind of effervescent so I may recap them one more time, oh
well live an learn. For all those out there doing big beers I have a
suggestion, use patience.
That's all I'm brewing a sasion this week end and I hope I don't blow the
house up!!! If any one has had experience with brewtek 380 then let me know
by personal mail what to expect.
gregman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:11:11 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump@mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump Report- sankey wash heads
Gump Report- sankey wash heads
Joe,
The special sankey wash tavern head supposedly has a lager bore than
other heads, to promote faster velocity flow rate, and thereby more
effective CIP'ing. I have one, but in all truth, it differs little from the
Micro-Matic Sankey tap available from FOXX. (Keeping in mind that Foxx has a
policy that I am out of date with, in respect to their differentiated
wholesale vs. retail activities.)
I changed H-S kegging @ CABCO to sankeys, utilizing a Northern Brewing
Systems H-S keg washer, by incrementally adding the following MAJOR
equipment transitions.....2 1/2 inch ball valves, and a handful of minor
bits to support the ball-valves installation, and the insertion of a CO2
line...along with the critical component...a milk crate.
I digress....back to your question.....buy direct from Foxx, @ a retail
direct level if possible, or contact your LHBS to get you a 07S07-102 Blue
Handled Micro Matic (sorry if the number is old...it comes from a 2001
cattledog, they first one I found in the death spiral I call an office!)
Keep in mind sir, that to effectively CIP a Sankey 15.5, one should
have a larger reservoir of CIP solution @ an appropriate temp (mine is 30
gallons and the solution tank has a heating element)....pushed by a powerful
pump, (scientific term...I guess mine is 1.5 HP centrifugal)...and the
ability to invert the keg such that the beer out spear is the effective CIP
head that delivers CIP solution to the domed bottom, (now top) of the
vessel....and the capacity to direct the outflow that will be coming from
the 'gas-in' port on the tap back into the reservoir...........
Then you need CO2 or compressed air to force residual solution out of
the keg.
Repeat for the water rinse side of the equation, or add a few more
valves and make it a 1 stop station where old brew is diverted/forced to a
drain from an inverted keg...then CIP is circ'd, and re-circ'd....then a gas
push out of residuals...then H20, gas...etc....each time varying the
inflow/outflow as required....
All the while maintaining temps! Which allows me to digress again...wrt
previous posts regarding PBW.
NO, you can't re-use it........organic loads, loss of temp, and time
will display to you, Joe, operator of a CIP Keg Washer...the defining moment
of PBW's impending uselessness...foaming of the recirc'd solution. I can
count on about an hour or two or so for the usefulness of a PBW solution in
this application.
Try it...you'll see. Or call for any info you need.
Cheers!
Gump
Rob Moline
515-282-2739 brewery
515-450-0243 cell
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"
>From: "Joe ,just-Joe" <pester_joe@hotmail.com>
>Subject: sankey wash heads -need info
>Does anyone know if there is anything special about a sankey wash head that
>justifies it costing over twice as much as a tap head? In terms of
cleaning
>one or two kegs, wsould a regular tap head with the gas check valve removed
>make an acceptable cleaning head? Thanks in advance.
>Joe Gibbens
- ---
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:21:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: AL wort chillers
I mash and boil in aluminum, so I wouldn't worry a bit
about using aluminum for chilling. Should work better
than Stainless, better heat transfer you know.... mike
=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:34:33 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: WLP500 Belgian Dubbel
Shawn E Lupold querries about yeast not dropping in his dubble..
>I'm fermenting my first Dubbel and using White Labs WLP500. It's been
>in primary 11 days and I just transferred it to secondary last night.
>The taste and aroma is very promising, but only a small portion of the
>yeast have fallen out of solution. It looks more like Bavarian wheat
>yeast than Belgian ale. Will these yeast ever flocculate and fall out
>of solution? The fermentation is basically complete (1.065-1.009) and
>I'm wondering if I should go ahead and bottle or wait for the yeast to
>fall out in the carboy. Thanks in advance,
>Shawn
I'd be willing to bet it will drop in the next two days.
I've experienced this with some belgian yeast at up to three weeks, and
every time it drops within two days when I rack to secondary.
If not, can you chill it to make it drop?
I'd give it another week and bottle whether it drops or not.
The Chimay yeast is my favorite among belgian yeast, and probably over all
as well.
Last time I used the WY equivalent (WY1214, Chimay) I hot-housed the beer
when I bottle conditioned it by setting it in the back of the station wagon
in the heat of the day and it got up to 80F in there. Worked great and
brought out some nice esters as well.
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von
Bismarck
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:49:27 -0500
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins@drain-all.com>
Subject: Re: Mounting Heater Element
Pat Reddy posted the following:
>(I think I'm bringing this issue back from the dead) I found a hbd post
from Jan 2002 where my exact
>question was posted, "How best do I mount a screw in type >heating element
through my keg wall without
>welding a coupling in place (no time for that!)?" The replies were:
>Dennis Collins - use a galvanized conduit ring
>Mike Pensinger - CPVC Coupling
>Mr. Hollenbeck - Have a coupling welded (Sorry Dion, no time for that!)
>I do find that the conduit nut fits nicely, but is it what I want in
contact with my acidic wort (what are these made
>with/coated with anyway?). Is the CPVC durable enough? What about hacking
of the business end of a 1"
>copper female adapter and using it as a nut?
I would never recommend using a galvanized steel ring in contact with wort.
My original post was on thread sizes and forms and I happened to mention
that the 1" conduit rings would fit on standard water heater elements. I
also mentioned that they were made from galvanized steel and that they would
rust. Galvanized coatings are zinc and are designed to rust preferentially
to the steel. This is NOT a good thing when in contact with wort. I would
refrain from putting any carbon steel anywhere in contact with wort.
Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:12:51 -0600
From: "Ryan Roecker" <rroecker@swri.edu>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 2278 experience -- strands hanging in beer
I've had the phenomenon you described twice in 5 years or so: gooey looking
strands hanging from the top of the beer. I was not using Wyeast 2278. Both
times it happened to me I was dry hopping so I figured it was an infection
from the hops which I didn't sanitize. It looked pretty bad in the carboy,
but it didn't seem to have any effect on the finished product. I just made
sure I didn't suck any of it up when I kegged the beer. The Lambic classic
beer style series book describes something which sounds very similar. I
don't have it here in front of me, but they also say it doesn't affect the
beer.
Ryan Roecker
San Antonio, TX
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:14:22 -0500
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley@charter.net>
Subject: Hops and Head, Acdioulated malt
Brewsters:
Rob and Steve are discussing artificial heading compounds. These do exist but
I couldn't tell you where to buy them.
Back in the late 60s I lived in Wales and although I usually drank local
brews, on occasion, someone might buy me a Carling's Black Label ( Canadian?)
. It took a few times, but I realized that one of these would produce a
splitting headache in about half an hour. Peculiar, since I had never had a
problem like this in the US.
Upon returning to the US I found that the cause was most likely a cobalt based
heading agent used in the Canadian beer that was not permitted in the US.
About 1% of the drinking population was affected by it as I was.
This is no longer used.
- ------------------------
Acidulated malt is used as AJ notes in low mineral waters in making lagers.
In the old days the Germans employed ( and may still do so) a low temperature
acid rest at the beginning of the brew cycle. Likely this hour or so rest is a
too expensive use of a valuable asset like the brewing kettle and the
acidulated malt is the answer.
Keep on Brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:22:54 -0500
From: "Joris Dallaire" <Joris.Dallaire@meq.gouv.qc.ca>
Subject: RE: Mounting Heater Element
In last HBD, Pat Reddy asks how best to mount a screw in type heating element
through a keg wall
without welding a coupling in place.
The replies were:
Dennis Collins - use a galvinized conduit ring
Mike Pensinger - CPVC Coupling
Mr. Hollenbeck - Have a coupling welded (Sorry Dion, no time for that!)
This subjects has been brought a couple time, i thought this time i throw in my
two cents. Although my heater is no longer in the tun, when it was i faced that
same problem.
The best no-hassle solution i found was the fitting plate used to screw the
heaters to the home water tanks where it belongs. They sell it at hardware
stores near the heaters. it's about 3.5"x3.5", heavy gauge, has the right
tapped-hole in the center, mounting holes in the corners, and a cut-to-size
gasket.
What i did was drill holes in the tank to fit the plate, then screw it tight
with brass bolts & nuts with rubber washers on the inside of the tank. The
cut-to-size gasket went on the outside of the tank. Fitted nice, no leaks.
Although this will work only if the radius of your tank is not too small (around
the radius of a water tank - a sanke-type keg should be ok). My tank was in fact
square, so i had no problem.
HTH,
Joris, Quebec
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:41:00 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy@mavtech.cc>
Subject: heater element mounting part II
Joris wrote:
>> The best no-hassle solution i found was the fitting plate used to screw
>>the heaters to the home water tanks where it belongs. They sell it at
>>hardware stores near the heaters. it's about 3.5"x3.5", heavy gauge,
>>has the right tapped-hole in the center, mounting holes in the corners,
>>and a cut-to-size gasket.
I saw a kit last night for converting the bolt on type element to a screw in
that contained exactly what Joris described - a somewhat curved plate like
that of the bolt on type but with a threaded hole in the middle. I
contemplated keeping it simple and avoid having to drill the four mounting
holes in my keg by grinding off the majority of the plate and just using the
threaded hole and what I leave of the plate surrounding it as a nut. This
would work beautifully, but again, the metal this part was made out of was
unknown likely not one of the commonly accepted brewing metals - stainless,
brass, bronze, or (arguably) aluminum. So the question is...
What metal is this adapter plate I found or the "fitting plate" Joris
referenced made of? I looked at the package and the manual and they give no
clue.
Pat Reddy
MAVERICK Technologies
(618)281-9100 x134
pat.reddy@mavtech.cc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:33:21 -0600
From: Brian Dube <brian.dube@gotgoat.com>
Subject: all-grain terminology
I still brew with extract kits, but there is something in the discussions
of all-grain brewing that confuses me. When you say sparge until the runoff
is clear, you do mean clear and not colorless, right?
Thanks,
Brian
- --
Brian Dube
Columbia, Missouri
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:36:53 -0600
From: Brian Dube <brian.dube@gotgoat.com>
Subject: yeast starters
Is it necessary to decant all yeast starters or is this a step used with
lager yeasts? If I'm completely off and my question is confusing, I ask
about lager yeasts because decanting a top-fermenting ale starter before
pitching strikes me as counterproductive.
Thanks,
Brian
- --
Brian Dube
Columbia, Missouri
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:16:25 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Sankey valves and keg washing
"Joe ,just-Joe" asks about the sankey wash heads:
"Does anyone know if there is anything special about a sankey wash head that
justifies it costing over twice as much as a tap head? In terms of cleaning
one or two kegs, wsould a regular tap head with the gas check valve removed
make an acceptable cleaning head?"
The sankey valves for keg washing have much larger passages in them, and are
probably made from different castings. Since they sell a tiny fraction of
the total number of valves, I suppose they want more money per valve for
these custom ones.
As to whether it would work or not to use a standard sankey valve, I'd bet
it would. Keg washing lines are designed to clean kegs that might be pretty
bad inside (beer pushed out with air, and the dregs sitting around for a
long time), and so large water flows and a big enough drain are important.
But if you can control the kegs, I don't think you'll have that many
problems. You can always pull the spear every so often and do a more
thorough job. You could probably also drill out the passages in the sankey
valve.
I know a local fellow that uses a standard sankey valve for a homebuilt
kegwasher, and it works fine. They finish off by filling the keg with 180F
water (or water with sanitizer, I don't remember which, but I think it's
simply hot water) and then they push it out with CO2. The keg then goes on
the rack to await filling. They might sanitize again when it's filled with
beer, but the kegs on the rack are sanitized and purged with CO2, so they're
pretty stable.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:23:47 -0500
From: "-S" <-s@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Gump re: Hops and Head
Rob,
Thanks for the note. I think I'll look into this just for grins.
-Steve
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump@mchsi.com>
To: "HBD" <post@hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:15 PM
Subject: Gump re: Hops and Head
> Gump re: Hops and Head
> Steve,
> There is an artificial agent, "Sparkling Foam" by NorthWestern, and
> undoubtedly others....I use it in my pub's Root Beer. I have never used it
> in beer, but have often wondered.....
> Cheers!
> Gump
> "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
> Beer!"
>
> >From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
> >Subject: re: Hops and Head
> <SNIP>
> >I'm surprised that there isn't some artificial foam positive agent
> >used to replace this. Maybe there is, but I'm not aware of it.
> <SNIP>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:14:53 -0500
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis@bucknell.edu>
Subject: Mash Mixer torque
I'm afraid that I don't have an easy answer for this, since the torque
requirements will be very dependent on the geometry of your paddle.
I think I can give you an upper bound, though. I have a gear motor
mounted on my grain mill (a MaltMill), and it produces a max of
50 in.lbs of torque. I haven't had any trouble grinding any grain (even
un-malted wheat) with that. I would think that if 50 in.lbs will grind grain,
then surely it will be able to stir a mash.
If you wanted to find out an actual value, buy or borrow a torque
wrench, attach it to the paddle, and actually measure the torque
required the next time you mash. Make sure you get an inch.pound
wrench, as I don't think you'll get any deflection on a foot-pound
scale. Good luck, and please report your results back here.
-----wade
whutchis@bucknell.edu
Brewing at 41deg 00' N by 76deg 50' W
597.6 Klicks, 101.5 deg. Rennerian
Milton, PA 17847
"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'" ~ Dave Barry
At 12:12 AM 3/19/2003, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 14:41:28 -0600
>From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy@mavtech.cc>
>Subject: Mototrized mash stirrer
>
>Does anyone know, or care to guess, about how much torque is required (in
>lbs/in) to stir a 10 gallon mash tun?
>I'm looking for a used gearmotor to fit my needs and I've found several but
>I'm not sure if their powerful enough.
>Thanks.
>
>Pat Reddy
>MAVERICK Technologies
>(618)281-9100 x134
>pat.reddy@mavtech.cc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 11:22:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy@yahoo.com>
Subject: PID controller & SSR
Brewgeeks,
I have an Omega 1/16 DIN MICROMEGA Autotune PID
Temperature Controller, model CN77333. This unit's
outputs are both Relay SPDT 5 A at 120. As I
understand it, these are mechanical relays, as opposed
to SSRs. As such is it possible to use this unit to
control a RIMS heater? Obviously, I would still need
an intermediate SSR to get the current rating, but
will this output handle the required cycles of
operation? If not, is there any "clever" way that I
could use it?
I am currently controlling my RIMS heating element
with a dimmer switch with 15A rating (element: 5500
watt at 240 VAC, operating at 120 VAC). I haven't
looked very closely at this dimmer, but I would guess
that it is an SCR. Is there a way that I can hack this
apart and control it with an analog output?
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild
http://hbd.org/starcity
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:09:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Brew Wisconsin <brewwisconsin@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Coordinating homebrew club events
In the last couple weeks, I've found that I had to
turn down events (judging and otherwise) because of
schedule conflicts among clubs in the same region.
This weekend, I'm missing my own club's barleywine
tasting because I previously committed to judge at
the Drunk Monk competition this weekend as my one
spring season Chicagoland event.
Yesterday, I got a judge mailing for another nearby
competition in May (Green Bay Rackers) that I used
to enjoy judging on a regular basis until it started
conflicting with the AHA regional or other events.
This year, I'm going to miss it because of our own
"Big and Huge" competition.
Certainly, if we knew about other events far enough
in advance we could try to avoid conflicts with
neighbouring clubs (and vice versa), and that would
make supporting other clubs' events much easier.
Sometimes schedule conflicts will be unavoidable,
but let me make a suggestion. An increasing number of
clubs have websites hosted on HBD **AND** HBD has a
calendar for user submissions.
If clubs used the calendar regularly--both for
submitting events for others to read AND checking
the calendar before scheduling events--we all might be
able to work together better.
Comments?
=====
Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino
Columnist, Great Lakes Brewing News
Member, North American Guild of Beer Writers
Winner: 2001--Culture Feature (Gold)
2000--Travel Feature (Silver)
Sometimes alcohol and driving do go together--
my car consumes more alcohol than I do.
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/afv/ethanol.html
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4202, 03/22/03
*************************************
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