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HOMEBREW Digest #4189
HOMEBREW Digest #4189 Fri 07 March 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: Deadband Controller ("Mike Sharp")
Re: Stainless Steel Scrubbies (John Palmer)
Hot Break and protien rest (Murray Manson)
Greed and serving memories ("Wayne Holder")
Chicago water analysis help ("Scott Staley")
RE: GUINNESS WIDGET ("Scott Staley")
RE: Deadband Controller (Bill Tobler)
Dryhopping a Lager (ILRI)" <R.KRUSKA@CGIAR.ORG>
re: Biere de Gardge (Jonathan Royce)
RE: Burning widgets in your chicken (Pat Babcock)
Cider Question (Beer Drinker)
TMS And Naked Greed ("Reddy, Pat")
Moving on... (Pat Babcock)
re: GUINNESS WIDGET ("Davison, Patrick")
Widget (AJ)
extreme lag in primary (Brian Dube)
Undercounter Fridge? (mohrstrom)
The Fridge ("Adam Wead")
My little yeast rant (Brian Lundeen)
re: biere de garde (homebre973)
I have been drinking heavily this evening.... ("Scott D. Braker-Abene")
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:57:09 -0800
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deadband Controller
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:04:36 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy@mavtech.cc>
Subject: Deadband Controller
Pat Reddy gives a 'Heads up' to J. Keller"
>Fortunately, Cole Parmer has just started a promotion
>on ON-OFF temperature controllers. For $39 you get
>a 16A SPST relay, deadband control, and a probe (probably
>not waterproof).
"A deadband controller is not the same (not even close) to the PID
controllers you've seen so much talk about here the last few days...."
If I understood his idea, he was intending to use it only for an
over-temperature limiter, with the relay in series with the SSR or whatever
that the PID uses. So, the PID measures the mash temp, controlling just
fine, and since temp is below the deadband controller setpoint, it's relay
remains closed. Power to the heater is limited by the PID controller.
But if the mash becomes stuck, flow drops and the temp in the RIMS chamber
goes too high. The deadband controller keeps the heater from getting too
hot, by shutting things down (until the chamber cools off).
I imagine it would continue to work, albeit with some serious temperature
cycling, in that case. However, if he's really got gadget fever, he could
buy a SPDT relay, and sound an alarm in the event the DB controller shuts
off.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:17:40 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer@altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: Stainless Steel Scrubbies
Dave asked whether stainless steel scrubbies would be non-corrosive for
cleaning stainless steel.
Short answer: I am not sure.
Long answer: Depends on what grade of stainless steel is used to make
the scrubbies. If its the austenitic aka 300 series aka 18-8 type
(Kegs, good Pots), then it would probably always be okay. But if it is
of the martensitic aka 400 series (Knives, some fittings, (doubt it))
or the ferritic (cheap stainless flatware, cheap pots) then it would
probably lead to problems. I am guessing that ss scrubbies are the
cheaper ferritic types.
John Palmer
john@howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:53:56 -0800
From: Murray Manson <mansonm@shaw.ca>
Subject: Hot Break and protien rest
While brewing a pale ale the other day, I produced a very strong hot
break, heavier than anything I've encountered before. Would this
indicate that the protien rest was too long or even unnecessary? I was
using 2 row pale malt, some crystal and honey malt, and had a 30 minute
rest at 50 celcius during the mash. Any ideas on how a heavy hot break
could influense the final product?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:31:12 -0800
From: "Wayne Holder" <zymie@charter.net>
Subject: Greed and serving memories
Rich Scotty posts:
"Bad news for those of us who procrastinated on constructing a conical
fermentor. Toledo Metal Spinning has doubled all their prices on the
conical
hopper family. The 12.5 gallon model TMS16914 was about $74 as memory
serves. It is now $152 - a little over 100% jump overnight!
Does anyone know of another source for these vessels? TMS got greedy...
"
Rich, you should check your memory server, I believe you have a parity
error.
It is true that TMS has re-aligned their pricing matrix to reflect a volume
pricing discount structure. While the single piece price has increased, it
is not a "100% jump overnight". I always recommend checking your facts
before publicly posting, especially when using terms like "greedy".
I understand what TMS did for two reasons:
1. As a homebrewing product manufacturer/wholesaler, I can tell you first
hand about the added time and costs involved in shipping large quantities of
small orders. It simply is more efficient to be able to ship a larger
quantity of items to a smaller number of locations than it is to ship a
smaller quantity of items to a larger number of locations.
Bottom line: onesie, twosie orders are a PITA.
2. I have actually talked to the V.P. of TMS.
Distribution through homebrew supply retailers is in the works.
Nothing beats actual information. Calling people greedy that don't deserve
it is uncalled for.
I would venture to say that if you do find someone that fabricates one-piece
spun Stainless hoppers, you won't find them any cheaper for a single piece.
Stainless fabrication is not cheap.
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach, CA
http://www.zymico.com
"All paid for by our good customers"
- -- Lynne O'Connor
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 06:54:05 +0000
From: "Scott Staley" <staleop@hotmail.com>
Subject: Chicago water analysis help
If anyone who has any knowledge of water relating to mashing has time and
would not mind looking at my chicago water analysis at
http://www.ci.chi.il.us/WaterManagement/water.html# I would love to hear
some opinions on it. I've only done 4 all grain batches, all using
distilled water, adding a couple tsp of dried malt extract and gypsum,
following something I read in Ken Schwartz's partial mash paper. I'd rather
not make a trip to the store to buy water. If I just boil my tap water and
let it sit overnight to get rid of any chlorine, should I be fine to mash?
thanks,
-scott
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 07:03:11 +0000
From: "Scott Staley" <staleop@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: GUINNESS WIDGET
I think I first heard about this chicken recipe on this forum a year or so
ago. There was something on an NPR radio broadcast about it. I've never
heard of the book, but I made the chicken and I think that the beer can is
supposed to be opened, so maybe that would make using Guiness with a widget
not a problem. But, why use Guniess? I think the beer just serves a
moisture while the bird is cooking. I never tasted any type of beer flavor
eating the chicken. You could probably fill an empty pop can with water,
rather than waste a Guiness. It's similar to a recipe in Marcella Hazan's
Italian cookbook, which is excellent, for chicken with 2 lemons. 2 lemons
in the cavity, that's it. They moisten it and it comes out great.
-scott
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:56:53 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Deadband Controller
Yesterday, Pat said:
"A deadband controller is not the same (not even close) to the PID
controllers you've seen so much talk about here the last few days. A
deadband controller is just as it sounds. Set your desired temp to 150 with
an 8 degree deadband and your heating element (RIMS) will go on until 154 is
reached and then shut off until the temp drops down to 146 then ramp the
temp up to 154 again. Or, in HERMS terms...the heat exchange solenoid will
remain open until your probe, where ever it may be, reads 154 then switch to
the bypass until the low side of 146 in sensed. This would no doubt cause a
serious temperature fluctuation exactly like Dennis Collins described in his
attempt to discredit us superior HERMS brewers :) . A PID controller on the
other hand will learn to switch it's output(s) on and off to MAINTAIN a
setpoint temperature by applying it's control output (0-100%) to the amount
of time the output(s) are held on. This equates to little, if any in some
designs, temperature fluctuation...snip"
Pat, I could use some direction here. My HERMS has a 3-way valve on the
inlet of the HLT coil, and I have two Omega PID controllers, one for the HLT
and the other for the mash. When I tried using PID control for the mash
tun, as the mash approached temperature, the three way starting going back
and forth very rapidly, bypassing every few seconds. I ended up putting the
controller in on/off control, and setting the deadband at about 1.5% of
setpoint. This seems to work very good, keeping the mash within two degrees
of setpoint. My mash tun is insulated, so it hold heat very well. This
works well for me, but I would like to know more about using the PID control
mode with a solenoid valve. I have the capability, but it just did not seem
to work very good. Thanks!!
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 02:49:31 -0800
From: "Kruska, Russ (ILRI)" <R.KRUSKA@CGIAR.ORG>
Subject: Dryhopping a Lager
Hi all,
Have my first lager ever (a Pilsener) in primary now for almost 2 weeks
(50F)
and need to transfer to a Corny keg this weekend. I would like to dry hop
with Saaz whole hops during the secondary/lagering stage, but I also do not
want to
do another transfer later to another keg. Any ideas?
I also am confused about when to force carbonate (if at all) during
secondary.
I have read that it is good not to ferment under pressure. So do I keep
releasing
the pressure during the lagering, and then force carbonare after lagering is
finished?
Russ Kruska
Nairobi, Kenya
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 04:37:34 -0800
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan@woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: Biere de Gardge
Jeff Renner wrote:
"I think some kind of Belgian yeast might work, but so many would be so
wrong."
I made a Biere de Garde (actually a Biere de Mars, but close enough) this year
and I really enjoy it. (The recipe can be found on my website.) It's a
beautiful rusty-orange color and is malty and slightly phenolic. The yeast that
I used was Wyeast 3787--Trappist High Gravity. From Wyeast's website:
"3787 Trappist High Gravity
Robust top cropping yeast with phenolic character. Alcohol tolerance to 12%.
Ideal for Biere de Garde. Ferments dry with rich ester profile and malty
palate. Flocculation medium; apparent attenuation 75-80%. (64-78o F)"
The style guideline for flavor is:
"A medium to high malt flavor often characterized by toffee or caramel aspects
is typical. A slight musty or woody character may be present. Hop bitterness is
often modest, though subtle and restrained hop flavors may occur. Diacetyl low
to none."
I think I got most of this using the 3787, although I would have liked it to be
a little more earthy so I will probably use more corriander seed.
HTH,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:51:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Burning widgets in your chicken
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Um, the widget is made of plastic. When you cram that can up your birdy's
buttocks, and stand the can on the hot coals, you'll need to ensure that
the beer never boils completely off. Otherwise, at the very least, you'll
have a moist bird that tastes like a rubber chicken. Burning plastics give
off toxins, too. Mmmm. yummy!
Best bet, if you must use Guinness or some other widget-equipped beer, is
to pour the brew into a widget-free can before packing it up your
bird's... well, you know.
- --
-
God bless America!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
- Arlo Guthrie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 06:58:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Beer Drinker <srm775@yahoo.com>
Subject: Cider Question
I made a apple cider and was under the impression that
it cleared by itself, however, it's been sitting for
quite some time and is still fairly opaque. I believe
the active fermentation is over (i.e. it hasn't
bubbled in some time). My question is this, should I
add some geletin to clear it, like I do with my beer?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:00:06 -0600
From: "Reddy, Pat" <Pat.Reddy@mavtech.cc>
Subject: TMS And Naked Greed
Rich,
Damn, I was only weeks away from nabbing the TMS16914 myself.
Say...your title says "Chief Fabricator"....
Any chance you can fabricate a few hundred conical fermentors for the group?
Sounds to me like we've found our replacement supplier.
Pat Reddy
MAVERICK Technologies
Controls Engineer
pat.reddy@mavtech.cc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:59:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Moving on...
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
As time allows, I've been s-l-o-w-l-y moving HBD content onto
the new server. Clubs and others whose sites are housed on the
HBD server would be well advised to maintian a local (on your
pc...) backup of your current website in the event there are any
accidents in transfer. I will do my best to preserve your site;
however, accidents happen, and I do not have the capacity in
time or tape to back up the entirity of the "clubs" directory
prior to making the move.
When the move is complete, all webmasters will need to contact
me for their access information. I will notify via the HBD and
the web site when this occurs.
I'll keep y'all posted.
- --
-
God bless America!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
- Arlo Guthrie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:46:47 -0500
From: "Davison, Patrick" <Davison@nsf.org>
Subject: re: GUINNESS WIDGET
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 23:33:48, MATTHEW HAHN asked a question about the
GUINNESS WIDGET:
"I got the book BEER CAN CHICKEN as a gift. It contains recipes that call
for an open can of beer to be inserted into a whole chicken on the
grill. As I rarely drink canned beer, I am wondering if it is safe to do
this with a Guinness or other can that contains a widget. Anybody try it?"
As a long-time lurker, I am proud to say I can finally provide some
thoughtful insight!
Here's what I recommend: Buy yourself a four-pack of Guinness Draught in
cans, or maybe two or three just to be safe. Then call a friend who has
poorly developed tastes in his/her choice of beer. Offer to swap a homebrew
or one of your Guinness Draughts in exchange for a can of whatever is in the
back of his/her fridge. Then guilt them into making it two cans, or perhaps
three. Anyway, buy as many chickens as you have cans of exchanged beer,
prepare the chickens as instructed in the recipe, and drink the remaining
Guinness Draughts with your meal.
I made beer can chicken a few times last summer. It's amazingly good, and
if my memory serves me correctly, I used Miller Lite. The beer stuck inside
the cavity steams the meat from the inside-out, making for an extremely
juicy bird that's almost impossible to overcook, not to mention it's rather
fun and humorous to see a chicken sitting on a can on your grill.
If you want to cook the bird with Guinness, I don't think the widget would
get to a melting temperature, but the taller can might make the bird sit
funny. You could always pour the Guinness into any empty 12-ounce aluminum
can.
For those of you wanting to try the recipe, there are a number of websites
that have a recipe available. The first hit when I searched on Google.com
is listed below:
http://organizedhome.com/kitchen/beercan.html
Enjoy,
Pat Davison
Ferndale, MI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:00:12 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel@cox.net>
Subject: Widget
The widget is placed in the can and both are purged of air (how this is
done I don't know - a combination of vacuum and CO2 I'd guess). The can
is then filled with carbonated beer, two drops of liquid nitrogen are
put in and the can quickly sealed. The sealed can then goes through a
flash pasteurizer. It is the rise in temperature in the pasteurizer that
vaporizes the nitrogen and increases its pressure in the can enough to
force beer into the widget through the tiny hole (the widget interior
is still at atmospheric pressure). After cooling, the interior of the
can and interior of the widget are at the same pressure but it is higher
than atmospheric. Thus when the can is opened and the headspace comes to
atmospheric pressure you have the opposite of the situation in the
pasteurizer: the pressure in the widget is higher than the pressure in
the can and beer rushes out through the little hole to disturb the bear
and produce the visual effect.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:49:58 -0600
From: Brian Dube <brian.dube@gotgoat.com>
Subject: extreme lag in primary
I brewed a 5-gallon batch of American cream ale on
Saturday, 01 March, and there is still no activity in the
air lock. I used a small yeast starter, but I did forget to
add yeast nutrient. Even if this batch does eventually take
off, will it be ruined by off-flavors (assuming an
infection doesn't take hold first)? I'm sorry that I'm
posting a question I can answer using the wait-and-see
method; I would rather just throw the batch out now if you
think this lag time is going to ruin the beer.
Thanks,
Brian
- --
Brian Dube
Columbia, Missouri
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 12:07:09 -0500
From: mohrstrom@core.com
Subject: Undercounter Fridge?
IIRC, Adam originally asked about an undercounter fridge:
> I've narrowed my choices down to the Danby DAR452 model,
> and a Kenmore 3.6 cu. ft. model available from Sears.
Sorry for not posting sooner, but if you are really looking for an
_undercounter_ fridge (and not just a small one), check the clearance
requirements. I purchased one from Best Buy that I needed to return
after reading the manual (29 days after purchase ...). While it fit under
the counter, it required a few inches of clearance around the sides for
heat dissapation.
Mark in Kalamazoo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:30:56 -0700
From: "Adam Wead" <a_wead@hotmail.com>
Subject: The Fridge
Dear all:
Thanks again for all the responses I've gotten on the fridge question.
Last night I went over to my local Sears and found a Kenmore model on sale
for $100. I suppose I could have shopped around for a cheaper, used one,
but I wanted to get the thing over with.
I had to make a couple of modifications. I cut out the plastic shelving
that was on the indside of the door...no big deal. This one did have a
freezer plate section at the top. I thought I could take the whole thing
out, but I didn't realize till I brought it home that the coolant actually
circulated through the plate! So, I took it off and very carefully bent it
straight...well, straight enough so that it fits in the back. Now it holds
one corny and the CO2 tank quite nicely.
There's no coolant leakage, so everything appears ok...
Cold beer anyone?
adam wead
(bloomington, in)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 18:08:05 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: My little yeast rant
Steve Cavan writes:
> On the not quite related point of yeast pitching levels, I
> believe you need
> to increase pitching rates for "cold pitching". DCL
> suggests approximately
> .75 gms per L at 12C but 3 gms per L at 9C.
>
Absolutely, and that is why I decided to split up bricks into 50 g packs.
Now, I'll bet you're just trying to get me going on my White Labs rant in
this forum by bringing this up aren't you? ;-)
Well, OK, the gist of it is...
I'm a little fed up with yeast manufacturers calling themselves pitchable
when in fact they aren't. At least, not if good brewing practices are
followed, and I don't consider the advice to pitch lager yeast into 70F wort
as good brewing practice.
I want a suitable cell count for cold pitching, at an affordable price, and
easy to use (translation: no starter). Dry yeasts give that to me, the
phenolics are just a bonus. ;-) (Sorry, Bill, you're a good sport).
The question is, why can't the liquid yeast people start putting out
products with respectable cell counts at a price near to what they are
providing now? I suspect that a sizeable part of the cost of a yeast pack or
tube or whatever is the overhead cost of producing it period, and has little
to do with the quantity of yeast provided. My guess is, they could produce
what I want, they just have little incentive to do it.
When the majority of the brewing world is happy with making starters, and
raves about the superiority of liquid yeasts, why should Wyeast or White
Labs change their approach?
Don't get me wrong, I'm pushing as hard as anyone to get White Labs into my
local market. I want the variety. I just want them to make their product in
a form that suits my brewing needs.
Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winnipeg
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:45:45 -0500 (EST)
From: homebre973@mindspring.com
Subject: re: biere de garde
I made this style about 6 years ago and it
came in second in Best of Show and scored
an average 41.2. I tried to make it again
using the same recipe, but I fermented it at
too high a temperature (67 F) and it was too
estery, so a cool fermentation
is critical. I developed this after
e-mailing with Kit Anderson on the
HBD back then.
Biere de Point Guard
Category : Biere de Garde
Method : Full Mash
Starting Gravity : 1.063
Ending Gravity : 1.016
Alcohol content : 6.1%
Recipe Makes : 5.0 gallons
Total Grain : 11.75 lbs.
Color (srm) : 12.2
Efficiency : 75%
Hop IBUs : 27.0
Malts/Sugars:
0.75 lb. sucrose
0.50 lb. CaraMunich 60L
5.00 lb. Vienna
0.50 lb. Wheat
4.00 lb. Lager 2-Row
1.00 lb. Light Dry Malt Extract
Hops:
0.25 oz. N.Brewer pellet 7.2% 90 min
0.50 oz. Gr. Hal.Hers.Pt 2.6% 30 min
0.50 oz. Tettnanger 3.4% 60 min
Grain Starting Temperature: 65F
Desired Grain/Water Ratio: 1.25 quarts/pound
Strike Water: 3.67 gallons of water at 133F
First Mash Temperature: 122F
Second Mash Temperature: 158F
Boiling Water to add: 2.92 gallons
Notes:
1/18/99
2 tsp gypsum in mash water
15 min protein rest at 122 F
not enough room in tun, took out
some a brought to boil
to raise temp to 158 F at 11:03
added rehydrated TBS of irish moss in 1 pint
cooled add pitched Wyeast 3787 at 67 F.
Lager for 1 month after a 2 to 3 wk fermentation
ferment at room temp 55 to 60 F. \
Hope this helps,
Andy from Hillsborough
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:37:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Scott D. Braker-Abene" <skotrat@yahoo.com>
Subject: I have been drinking heavily this evening....
Then again...
What else would you do in Wayne, PA???
However, All that being said....
Dave Burley has been on recently and so has Al K...
So....
What ever came of the great CLINITEST debate?
hehehehehehhheheehhhehehh
-Scott "Pat Babcock is Jealous of the Plaid" Abene
=====
"My life is a dark room... One big dark room"
- BeetleJuice
http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4189, 03/07/03
*************************************
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