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HOMEBREW Digest #4148
HOMEBREW Digest #4148 Sat 18 January 2003
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Re: Time everywhere but not enough of it and more, Et Al ("Vernon, Mark")
gushing beer ("Berggren, Stefan")
weihenstephaner lager ("greg man")
Brewhouse efficiency ("Steve Alexander")
re: barleywine overcarbonation (Rama Roberts)
Brewhouse efficiency ("Michael Maag")
Re: BJCP Levels ("Leonard, Phil")
While on the way to St.Pat's I met a thread with 7 brickbats ... ("Steve Alexander")
Re: Removing Beer Labels - DON'T MIX CASCADE WITH AMMONIA (Bill Tobler)
Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists' Homebrew Comp 2003 ("John C. Tull")
Brickbats into ploughshares ("Joseph Gerteis")
Diacetyl Rest (George & Lola)
Is WLP810 SF Lager a slow fermenter? ("Michael J. Westcott")
wine kit taste ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Re: Brewhouse efficiency (Kent Fletcher)
Re: Muriatic Acid (John Palmer)
Re: stpats ("greg man")
Propane/Chloramine ("A.J. deLange")
RE: Beer of Gold (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Re: 10 gallon system recommendations & NJ clubs ("MSDN Acount")
Gott Coolers and warpin ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
RE: Beer of Gold ("Sven Pfitt")
Attenuation control options and affects ("Martin Brungard")
Basement brewing with gas (MJHarper)
Re: Brewhouse efficiency (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Re: Writing on the BJCP exam... (Mark Kempisty)
Re: ale vs lager vs. wine yeast (Jeff Renner)
Re: Brewhouse efficiency ("Steve Alexander on the road")
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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:44:06 -0600
From: "Vernon, Mark" <mark.vernon@pioneer.com>
Subject: Re: Time everywhere but not enough of it and more, Et Al
Replying to a couple of posts.
1. Basement Brewing with propane burner ("Romanowsky, Paul)
Paul, I brew in my basement with propane - and have for years. I have full
sized "Daylight" windows in my basement, so I just push my brew stand under
one, put a box fan (facing out obviously) in the window and kick it on
medium. For "Make Up Air" I open another window on the other side of the
basement. I am currently finishing my basement and will lose access to the
windows, so I am going to put in an oven hood vented to the outside - and
still use the windows for make up air. I have a CO detector in the basement
and upstairs, the only time is has registered is once when it was REALLY
windy outside and I got some kick back thru the window - that only hit
single digits.
2. Time everywhere but not enough of it. (Mark Kempisty)
Mark - I know how you feel, I have a 2yr old and another due here in 2 mos
so time is very precious, and planning is a must. For those who have
problems dedicating a whole Saturday to an all grain brew here is how I get
away with it...Split your brew day. On Thursday after work I will prep my
area and crush the grain. On Friday after work I mash in and run-off (I no
sparge everything now - saves a good hour) - making sure to hit my mashout
temp to stop enzyme activity. I then cover the mash tun and go to bed.
Saturday morning I fire up the burner and start my boil (having breakfast,
etc as it heats up) and do the clean-up. This is VERY effective and I can
easily be done by noonish on Saturday leaving me the afternoon to play with
the boy or do the things the SWMBO wants me to get done. Give it a try...has
worked very well for me for several years (20+ batches at least)
3. Re: LBHS Chatter ("Sven Pfitt")
Okay I have been biting my tongue for a bit on this and cannot hold back any
longer. Yes I agree that you should support your LHBS but only IF THEY
SUPPORT YOU. Ours here in the Heartland of america is a real PITA. Some of
you may remember my posting a year ago asking about club yeast banks - if
not well the short of it is our LHBS took exception to our club providing
10ml starters to members for $2. He contacted White Labs and they sent a
letter threatening legal action against us and were going to stop selling to
the LHBS if we did not stop selling THEIR yeast (send me a number and I will
fax you a copy - signed by Chris White himself) - and yes we did suspend our
yeast bank. We also did a bulk StarSan/Grain order from a supplier in NJ -
(we tried to go thru our LHBS for the StarSan but he said it was too much of
a hassle to order that much)...our LHBS called the supplier and whined - so
now they will not sell to anyone within 100mi of a LHBS....he refuses to put
flyers for our club up in his store (because he does not want to be seen as
playing favorites toward one club) - the list goes on and on...So if you
have a good local shop by all means support it and consider yourself lucky,
if not....support your local Internet homebrew shop as I do - I can order
from Northern Brewer (NAJASC dada dada yada) before noon and have it at my
door step the next day via UPS Ground - so now I don't even have to deal
with our bonehead LHBS....ahhhhh that feels much better.....
Mark Vernon
Once the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:15:49 -0600
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren@trekbike.com>
Subject: gushing beer
Hbd'rs
Interesting article......
http://www.crc.dk/flab/fusarium.htm
Cheers,
Stefan -In Madison, WI
P.s. I found the problem of overcarbonation with my barley wine....
the bottling bucket drain valve had small amounts of mold
residue.... Live and learn....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:53:15 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer@hotmail.com>
Subject: weihenstephaner lager
I bought a really nice lager the other day quite famous an I'm sure many
out there have had it, it's the weihenstephaner original lager.
I love there wheat beers but never tried the lager until yesterday. It's
very tasty a medium sized beer at about 1.050sg (11.8p) The Ibu's are 24 an
probably used for bittering only. It's a little bitter for a german beer,
but what stands out most is the body an flavor.
What's's especially interesting is the color. If you were blind folded
while drinking this you would swear it was darker than it is. But the beer
is blond with a full malt taste, very nice........
"If you have the means I highly recommend picking one up"
Ferris Buler's day off
Any way I was wondering does anyone have a clone for this one? According
to there site it's 11.8p an 24 IBU's. Obviously there using a lager yeast,
because it tastes nothing like there wheat beers.
My main question about the grist formulation is does this beer have wheat
in it? Considering the body of this beer I think it does either that or raw
barley? Or maybe raw wheat?
Any thoughts regarding my suspicions would be
appreciated.............gregman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:04:45 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brewhouse efficiency
Mike Maag writes
>I got a OG of 1.061 using 11 lbs of 2 row (yield points/lb/gal= 79)
>and 11 lbs of Munich (yield points/lb/gal= 75).
>Batch size 10 gal.
>What is my brewhouse efficiency? (please list the formula, not
>"plug it in to ProMash" )
>
>Cheers!
>Mike Maag, arithmatically challenged in the Shenandoah Valley.
Arithmetically challenged ! A man's gotta know his limitations
as Mike apparently does.
Yields given for 2-row and Munich are physically impossible !
Sugar dissolved in water yields only 46.22 point-gallons-per
-pound(pgpp). So DME and Sugar yield around the 46pg
and any malt will yield less. Typically 2 row pale might have an
optimal yield around 36-39pgpp and Munich around 33-36pgpp.
These figures are based on things like ASBC or IOB lab yields
and the methods don't really correspond with conventional brewing
methods. It's entirely possible to get slightly higher yield than
these *practical maximums* without violating the laws of
physics.
Anyway I *suspect* that the 79 & 75 numbers are mass percentage extraction
figures. So for the 2-row 79% of the mass is extractable and for Munich 75%
of the mass. To convert to pgpp you just multiply by 46.22pgpp.
79% * 46.22 = 36.5 pgpp for the 2-row
75% * 46.22 = 34.7 pgpp for the Munich
These are reasonable figures which I'll use
for this example.
For those of the metric persuasion the constant 385.7
litre-degree-per-kilogram replaces 46.22 pgpp, where
a degree is one SG point.
- --
To get the MaxYield for the grist you simply multiply the optimal
yields times the number or pounds of each grist component and
sum the results.
In the example above in 'US' units its:
11lbs 2-row * 36.5pgpp = 401.5point-gallons
11lbs Munich * 34.7pgpp = 381.7point-gallons
practical maximum yield = 783 point-gallons.
The measured yield was 10 gallon * 61 points (1.061SG)
for a total of 610 point-gallons.
Brewhouse efficiency is just the measured yield divided by the
practical maximum yield
610/783 = 78% which is a good extraction number,
not too high, not too low.
- --
The problem with brewhouse efficiency is that good figures for each
individual malt are usually not known so must be estimated to be similar to
other malts. The method of multiplying the points times the volume is not
accurate. 10gal of SG1.040 wort does NOT have the same amount of extract
as 5gal of SG1.080. The correct calculation requires use of the Plato
tables to determine actual extract mass. Also HB methods usually don't
permit very accurate measure of the SG or the volume of wort.
If you are willing to accept errors on the order of 5+% then brewhouse
efficiency does help the HBer understand something about the efficiency of
his/her mash and lauter process independent of the particular grist used.
(note that pt/lb/gal is the same as pt-gal/lb which I abbreviate pgpp)
-S
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:44:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama@retro.eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: barleywine overcarbonation
Stefan writes:
>I am at a quandary with my latest batch a barley wine.
>...
>Now the batch is exhibiting a bit too much carbonation and I am scratching my
>head. Could this be due to the cooler temperatures?
I don't see how. The bottle is a closed system, and the corn sugar is going to
produce a fixed amount of CO2 regardless of the temperature, as long as its in
the temp. range the yeast are happy with.
But... I just checked out:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter11-4.html
and Palmer says as temperatures decrease, you need *less* priming sugar.
What's up with that? I can see how the beer would absorb the CO2 more quickly
at lower temperatures, but shouldn't the system (head space/beer) reach the
same equilibrium given enough time?
Stefan writes:
>I then bottled trying to achieve a carbonation level of 1.3(vol/CO2)
>using a priming widget that called for 2o grams of corn sugar based on a
>temp of 68deg and my batch size of 3 gallons.
>...
>When I recalculate the amount of Corn Sugar at 55 degrees is tells me to prime
>with 9.7 grams of corn sugar.
What are using to calculate the amount of corn sugar to use?
Even if you adjust for temperature like Palmer suggests, the drop in priming
sugar is no where near halfed (20g -> 9.7g).
Stefan writes:
>I am also sure that my ferment went to completion after checking three days in
>a row with a hydrometer.
That's insufficient in my experience, especially with a high gravity beer.
Especially if you never racked to a secondary or roused the yeast.
- --rama
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:54:29 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <MichaelMaag@doli.state.va.us>
Subject: Brewhouse efficiency
I posted some weird yield/extract numbers in my post requesting
assistance with brewhouse efficiency calculations. Turns out, I
posted the wrong numbers. I was looking at an old BT article
(sept/oct 96) which listed "Table 1: nominal extraction yields for
various malt types". For 2 row it said "Yield*(%)(points/lb/gal)=
79. It also said "Extract, Max" (points/lb/gal)=37. I should have
used 37. Live and learn, at least I know my limitations 8*).
Now I am going to make the same beer, and use a combination
batch/fly sparge to see if my extraction efficiency increases.
Thanks to all who responded. Various calculations put my
efficiency between 75.6% and 78%.
Just as a data point, I do a fine crush, and mash in a
direct fired mash/lauter tun with a trident style EasyMasher
(stolen from Al K.)
http://www.brewinfo.com/
I used 6 gal mash water and did a step mash. 30 min at 142 and
30 min at 150. pH 5.6 Then sparged with 10 gal , (took about 1
hour).
I'm not sure if a longer sparge, or a batch sparge will help, so I
am going to experiment.
Cheers,
Mike Maag, who is glad his limitations don't include brewing good ale.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:44:34 -0600
From: "Leonard, Phil" <Phil.Leonard@dsionline.com>
Subject: Re: BJCP Levels
I agree completely with Alan about having to handwrite the answers. I can
type many times faster than I can write (assuming you with to be able to
read the writing). Since this is a timed test the speed of writing (typing)
is very much an issue. And yes, I've heard the argument that the test must
be hand written because you have to hand write the judging form at a
competition. Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Most, if not all, of the
forms I've gotten back from competition had no more than a couple dozen
words on them. Writing a few dozen words on a form is much different than
writing 10 multi-page essay answers. There is an increased potential for
cheating but if the people giving the test are paying attention they'll know
pretty quick if the person with the computer is using it to cheat.
Philip
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:52:51 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: While on the way to St.Pat's I met a thread with 7 brickbats ...
Joe Gerteis says,
>Marc Sedam's issue with the store in Texas. Has this
>community lost its teeth [...]
After Marc Sedam wrote ...
>I get an email back from Miss O'Connor within an hour of placing my
>order stating:
>
>"You should buy these items elsewhere. St. Patrick's of Texas will not
>sell to you."
Lost it's teeth ... hardly. I've been chatting w/ Marc Sedam offline about
this.
Lynne O'Conner at St.Pat's has proven over the years to be sensitive to
criticism. Some here may recall the HBD arguments between her and Jason
Hennings - tho' I think she had a lot better case at that time. St.Pat's
customer service has been a semi-regular topic of discussion on HBD for many
years too.
I don't really have any problem with a highly opinionated shop owner
expressing that opinion forcefully. I *do* have a very serious problem
with a shops - or any vendor - who pick and choose their customers based on
things like their customer's supposed criticisms or nationality. Either
you're in the business of selling to the open market or you're not a vendor
at all but a mechanism to expand favoritism, nepotism or racism. Their are
restraint of trade laws that prevent this at the wholesale level - at the
retail level it's at best a nasty practice that demands an explanation.
Marc Sedam has proven himself over many years to be a good guy - an HBD
regular who contributes a ton of information to this forum and stays
level-headed, and has never to my knowledge generated any unjustified
criticism and doesn't take his criticisms beyond the positive level of what
he thinks should be corrected. I can't believe that anything Marc wrote
could be considered a 'hatchet job'.
To their credit St.Pats provides a number of interesting HB products that
other shops don't. I really don't know Lynne's position on this issue but
I've copied her in the hope that she'll reply to HBD and explain just why
she refused Marc's order.
cc: stpats@bga.com
-S
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:38:20 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Removing Beer Labels - DON'T MIX CASCADE WITH AMMONIA
On Jan. 16, 2002, Charles Stewart beat me down with a stick (for good
reason) saying,
"On Jan. 14, 2003, Bill Tobler recommended removing beer labels with a
mixture of Cascade and ammonia. DON'T DO IT! Cascade, like most electric
dishwashing detergents contain chlorine. Chlorine mixed with ammonia
produces deadly chlorine gas. Not a good idea."
Charles is right, and thanks for pointing that out. The stuff I use is the
powered" Cascade Complete" product, which does not have any chlorine. I
talked to Proctor and Gamble this morning and they said that the only
Cascade product that has Chlorine bleach is "Cascade Pure Rinse Jel". None
of the powders have Chlorine.
It looks to me that more than one person said that ammonia by itself works
good, and that's probably best. It's good that we look out for each other,
so we don't make stupid mistakes.
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:18:53 -0800
From: "John C. Tull" <jctull@unr.edu>
Subject: Washoe Zephyr Zymurgists' Homebrew Comp 2003
I am pleased to announce the WZZ Homebrew Competition 2003 in beautiful
Reno, Nevada. We need judges, stewards, and entrants. You can view the
details online, including registering as a judge or steward, as well as
registering your entries at this web address:
http://jctull.biology.unr.edu/wzz/wzz-comp2003.html
Last years event attracted 97 entries, so we expect to be well over 100
this time around. We have a solid judging base in Reno and northern
California that is actively involved in making this one of the best
homebrew events in the nation.
Please register early if you plan to judge or steward so that I can
have a solid head count of volunteers. You can address any questions to
me.
The event will be held on Sunday 2 March 2003. There will also be a
BJCP exam administered by Dave Sapsis on Saturday 1 March 2003. So plan
on taking the test, then judging the next day if you are so inclined.
Please let me know in advance if you plan to take the exam. We will
need a head count for that as well.
Cheers,
John C. Tull
WZZ
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:58:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Joseph Gerteis" <joseph540@elvis.com>
Subject: Brickbats into ploughshares
Steve Alexander writes:
> I don't really have any problem with a highly
> opinionated shop owner expressing that opinion
> forcefully. I *do* have a very serious problem
> with a shops - or any vendor - who pick and choose
> their customers based on
> things like their customer's supposed criticisms or
> nationality.
Thanks for your thoughful reply, Steve. I actually
agree with your assessment, and I have ordered from St.
Pats in the past with no problem whatsoever. And I
think that they have some excellent products --
particularly their pilsner malts and yeast that aren't
available elsewhere.
I have heard from others who have had exactly the same
experience as Marc, however, which is why I was not
inclined to attribute his experience to misdirected
ethnic or religious prejudice on Lynne's part. Marc
also seems like a very level-headed guy, which is why I
was not inclined to dismiss it as hysteria on his part.
It strikes me more like the old Seinfeld episode about
the Soup Nazi -- after a little criticism, the customer
is cut off: "No soup for you!"
I am perfectly willing to admit that I might be wrong
about this though. That's exactly why I'd like some
discussion -- I'm not trying to kick up dust for the
sake of the mess. I'd really like to get more
information so I can figure out whether to send more of
my business their way. It's hard to get that only
through private communication.
On a completely unrelated note, I very much enjoyed
your recent posts on pitching rates and dry yeast. I'm
primarily an ale brewer but I'm thinking much more
about this as I get into lager making. Would you be
willing to post something on preferred and "minimum
acceptable" rates and practices for lager, especially
with liquid yeast? Or would anyone? Maybe too much to
ask, but if you have any thoughts, they would be
helpful ...
Thanks again and best wishes!
Joe Gerteis
Minneapolis MN
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:17:27 -0600
From: George & Lola <georgelola@netscape.net>
Subject: Diacetyl Rest
Hi Everybody
1. Sometime back soneone mentioned a Diacetyl Rest while he was making
his beer. Would someone please explain what this is or when you do it
or how.
2. What effect does ageing your beer in Oak barrel have? When this is
done are the barrels charred?
Thank You in Advance
George
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:18:00 -0700
From: "Michael J. Westcott" <westy@commspeed.net>
Subject: Is WLP810 SF Lager a slow fermenter?
Did a search of the archives and could not find anything
related to this question so I thought I would post it. I have a
1.054 OG brew fermenting rather actively for 14 days as of
tomorrow. Temperatures have been between 60-62F for duration
of primary. Wonder if anyone has had same experience with this yeast.
Pitched 1 liter starter just past high krausen and had first signs of
fermentation
at about 8 hours after pitch. First time I have used this yeast.
Thanks, Mike.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:55:26 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew@compuserve.com>
Subject: wine kit taste
Brian L. had mentioned that someone *else mentioned
hydroxymethylfurfural and the "kit wine" taste as sort sweetish.
I won't deny he is tasting something, but a bit of searching
told me a couple of things. HMF is known to us, it is a precursor
in our much loved (in their place) melanoidans; it is in the
Amadori rearrangement step of melanoidin formation, and
like melanoidans has been described as toasty or cracker-like
in taste. It could be entirely likely if wine kits "boiled down" but
that is not very usual today. Modern kits are vacuum concentrated
at low temperatures. Up until pastuerization things are kept close
to freezing. One manufacturer has told me (grain of salt taken) that
their kits are heavily bentonited and recirculated early on. I would
guess that would strip out most amino acids and prevent HMF
formation. Yeast nutrients are added back in later in the process.
The final pasteurization would induce some HMF, but with new
flash pasteurization the amounts would be minimal. Like I said
I'm sure Brian is tasting something, but I'm starting to think that
the probability lies with the amelioration in the form of added sugar
that is leaving the sweetness being noticed; and maybe that is why
it is not noticed in a sweeten wine?
Brian, this is not meant as an argument, just food for thought.
Afterall, a manufacturer can say, "That's taste is from
hydroxymethylfurfural and unavoidable." or they could say, "That taste
is because of the added sugar." Which do you think they are more apt
to say?
By the way, I never tasted it, and I've tasted numerous kit wines. Which
brand do you taste that in?
NL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:27:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brewhouse efficiency
Michael Maag wants to know how to calculate his
brewhouse efficiency:
>I got a OG of 1.061 using 11 lbs of 2 row (yield
>points/lb/gal= 79)and 11 lbs of Munich (yield
>points/lb/gal= 75). Batch size 10 gal.
>What is my brewhouse efficiency? (please list the
>formula, not "plug it in to ProMash" )
(Mike said he is "arithmatically challenged", and
apparently hasn't read the latest Zymurgy, either)
First of all Mike, your numbers are a little out of
whack. The number you're quoting as "yield" is
actually "extract percentage." The actual yield in
pts/lb/gal for the respective malts is about 36.3 and
34.5, respectively. Use these to figure POTENTIAL
extract or gravity points.
So anyway, the formula is total gravity of wort
divided by total potential gravity.
11.0 lbs * 36.0 / 10 gal = 40 gu(rounded)
11.0 lbs * 34.5 / 10 gal = 38 gu(rounded)
for a total potential gravity of 78 gu
Actual yield 61 gu divided by potential 78 gu
equals 78.2%
Hope that helps,
Kent Fletcher
brewing in So Cal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:15:58 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer@altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: Muriatic Acid
Rick asks about using common Muriatic Acid for cleaning stainless
steel, copper, brass, etc.
Short answer is No. Muriatic Acid = hydrochloric acid, which is bad for
the passivity of stainless steel and will cause pitting in most metals.
The only place it would be useful is in cleaning beerstone from glass
carboys.
Cheers,
John Palmer
john@howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 02:29:27 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: stpats
I wanted to mention first that I am not affiliated with stpats in any way.
That being said I have done business with a-ton of home brew shops from
california to Massachusetts. To be honest I have had small problems with
most of them. That seems to be the problem with all different kinds of mail
order, the merchandise is not in your hand when you leave the store
so.......... you never know what your gonna get.
Personally I don't use my local home brew shop because there isn't one.
The shop closest is an hour drive an they sell briess 2 row for 1.50 a lb so
I won't support them................
Oh the point that's right I wrote in for a reason, I have ordered things
from stpats a few times an had no serious problems. The one time I did it
was resolved quickly an in a way that was in my favor. Five pounds of
hallertau mittelfruh in my favor, but that's another story for another
day.......
My point is any given on-line order transaction can go wrong. That goes
for every company. On the whole my experiences in dealing with stpats
evrthing form my stupid questions to orders has been good.
Being a big company they have more customers, more customers means more
chances for small or big problems.
The same would be true if you asked about homebrewheaven, there a big
store an if you said you had a problem with them I'm sure many people would
come forward an so did I. And I'd say me too!!!! But the reality is they
sell the cheapest stainless steal pots I've ever found on-line! So I buy
from them despite what ever trivial problems I may come across.
Because that's mail order.
If you can't buy from stpats then my condolences they are a good supplier
to those of us who like german beers. You will defiantly have trouble
finding there unique quality ingredients for as competitive a price. If I
had had some of the problems you described then I might sing another tune
but I haven't. I wanted to add my 2 cents just so people could hear another
side of the story before making a decision about who they buy
from...................gregman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:19:20 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel@cox.net>
Subject: Propane/Chloramine
A couple of things from #4146:
WRT to a large propane burner in the basement - remember that it isn't
just a matter of getting combustion products out of the space but also
of getting combustion air in. There is lots of stuff in the various code
books on how to calculate the size of the openings required depending on
the type of construcion, communicating space, presence of vented
adjacent crawl space and so on.
IMO propane indoors, especially in a basement, is a risky business. It
is heavier than air and thus pools at floor lever - right where the
pilot on your water heater, furnace and various motors (sparks) are
likely to be found. Don't ever store it in the basement. Definitely by
and use carbon monoxide and propane monitors if you are going to go
ahead with plans to work indoors.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
It's a minor technicality but ammonia and hypochlorite produce
chloramine gas - not free chlorine. In terms of your health they are
approximately equally detrimental.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:35:21 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Subject: RE: Beer of Gold
Jon,
I'm sure that what Sven meant is that he brews the types of beers that if
bought commercially would cost $3-5 per bottle.
So, if you bought a bottle of Chimay Blue, it will cost around $3.50 (around
here). Expand that to 2 cases (5 gallons), and that comes out to about $168.
Now if you brewed a clone using an all-grain 5 gallon recipe, it would
probably cost you around $15-20, or about $.40 per bottle.
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
AHA member, AHA Board of Advisors member, AHA Liaison, BJCP
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:07:38 -0500
From: "MSDN Acount" <msdn20@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 10 gallon system recommendations & NJ clubs
I too have been comparing off-the-shelf homebrewing systems. I am wondering
if there have been any reviews in any of the beer mags. What I have come
across are the following:
- Sabco Brew-Magic
- Beer, Beer, and More Beer Beer Sculptures
- Midwestern - Brew-zer Homebrewing System
- pico Brewing System
Are there others that I'm missing? I've seen references to an East Coast
Brewing Supply system, but it seems that they are out of business.
Right now I am leaning toward the Sabco Brew-magic, but am also debating
whether to attempt to build something similar because of the high cost. Is
there anyone wishing to unload one of these systems?
Also, anyone aware of any active homebrewing clubs in (or around) Somerset
County, NJ? The two closest groups listed by AHA (Basking Ridge and
Piscataway) seem to be defunct. Can anyone confrm or deny this?
Rich Lanam
Superfund Brewing
Warren, NJ
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:34:46 -0600
From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey@swampgas.com>
Subject: Gott Coolers and warpin
I've used a Gott (Rubbermaid, orange) 10-gallon cooler for several
years, and have not noticed any warping at all, and I regularly
mashout at 170F.
Note, however, that other brands, particularly Coleman, _do_ have a
reputation for warping. Even in the case of the latter, though, I
believe the problem is only cosmetic.
Cheers -- tafKaks
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:35:22 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Beer of Gold
Jonathan Royce Responded:
>Sven Pfitt wrote:
>"As far as the price goes, I make mostly beer that costs me in the >range
>of $3-$5 per bottle. That works out to $144 to $240 a 5 gallon >batch
>equivalent."
>To which I say:
>WOW! That is some expensive homebrew. It must be the nectar of the >Gods!
....snip....
By "Batch Equivalent" I meant that IF I had bought enough of the commercial
beer in question it would have cost that much. My actual cost of the batch
of homebrew is on the order of:
25# of grain - $15
2# honey - $4
1# Invert sugar - $.50
6oz hops - $4
Propane - $6
Yeast (I ranch) - $3
extraneous stuf - $1
10 gallon batch - $33.50
This batch will be bottle conditioned and will fill 4+ cases, So I have
roughly 100 bottles of beer at roughly $0.34 per bottle compared to the
commercial beer at over $4 per bottle by the time I pay tax.
This is a hight gravity beer (OG 1.084 Delerium Tremens Clone) that will
last for many years, If I don't drink it or give it away before then...which
I probably will.
Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian
"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von
Bismarck
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:39:19 -0500
From: "Martin Brungard" <Martin.Brungard@trow.com>
Subject: Attenuation control options and affects
Many of the readers on this list know about different brewing options that
purposely alter the attenuation of a beer. Options such as mashing
temperatures and water/grist ratios, yeast selection, or prematurely halting
fermentation are attenuation control examples that I know of. I expect there
are other control options that I haven't mentioned. I am wondering if there
is a quantifiable or qualifiable difference in the effects of these differing
attenuation control options.
For instance, you could mash to produce a highly fermentable wort and convert
it with a low attenuation yeast. Conversely, you could produce a less
fermentable wort and convert it with a higher attenuation yeast. If you took
identical grists and had the same starting and finishing gravities with the
situations I mention above, what would the beers be like? I am guessing that
the body and mouthfeel for these otherwise identical beers might be
different. What else might differ? I realize that differing yeast strains
will impart their effect on flavor, but let's forget that impact for now.
I'm hoping that someone has already studied this affect.
Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:47:21 -0500
From: MJHarper@adelphia.net
Subject: Basement brewing with gas
Greetings to all. Nice to be back after a 2+ year away from the digest!
My brewery is in my basement. I have a smaller two-bruner unit which I
figger is max 50K BTU when fulling burning. I have a standard kitchen vent
hood over the burner and I put a 'blowing out' fan in the window 3 feet
away and a 'blowing in fan' in the propped open bulk-head door. This way I
have a constant wind moving past the brewery. In the winter it gets a
little too cool sit stand in. :-) I also leave the upstairs door open for
additional inlet air. This approach was put together after several brew
sessions and seems to work the best. CO detector only went off once, when I
waited to turn on one of the fans because it was so darn cold outside. Gave
me a hell of a headache too.
It can be done, just watch make sure you have a really good air flow to the
outside and sufficient air flow coming in to compensate. Use a CO detector
and place it very close to the brewery so it goes off ASAP.
I do't know that I would try it with a 100K+ burner though. Hell, that's
more than my furnce puts out!
I too would prefer an out building of some sort, but that isn't an option.
I used to do it in the kitchen, but carrying a full carboy down the
stairs.... bumped it once. Was the last time I brewed up there.
-M
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:48:30 -0500
From: "Jones, Steve (eIS) - Eastman" <stjones@eastman.com>
Subject: Re: Brewhouse efficiency
Michael Maag asked for a formula for efficiency. Dan the extract brewer
provided a very good explanation, but no formula in the strict sense. Here
is a formula for efficiency that you can plug numbers into:
eff = ((OG-1)*1000 * GAL)/(amt1*yld1 + amt2*yld2 + amt3*yld3 ... ) * 100
where:
eff = efficiency in percent
amt1 = amount of grain 1, amt2 = amount of grain 2, etc (in lbs)
yld1 = yield of grain 1, yld2 = yield of grain 2, etc (in gravity points per
pound per gallon, or PPG)
OG = original gravity of wort in Specific Gravity
GAL = quantity of wort in gallons
NOTE: OG & GAL can be measured either pre or post boil, but both must be
done at the same time (1.053 OG and 11.5 gallons would be typical pre-boil
numbers for your example)
Assuming your yields were in KGs then the yields in PPG are 36 for the 2-row
and 34 for the Munich. Also assuming 10 gallons, then
eff=((1.061-1)*1000*10)/(11*36 + 11*34) * 100 = 79.2%
Hope this helps,
Steve Jones, Johnson City, TN; State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://hbd.org/franklin
[421.8 mi, 168.5 deg] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:39:31 -0500
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty@pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: Writing on the BJCP exam...
The only way the BJCP proctors could guarantee answers from computers is
if they supplied them. There are companies that rent them specifically
for short periods of time with various software packages. All you would
really need is Notepad or Wordpad (assuming a Windoze machine). I have
no idea of the cost for renting.
- --
Take care,
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:56:29 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ale vs lager vs. wine yeast
"Steve B" <habenero92@hotmail.com> writes:
>I was recently having a conversation with a co-worker about the health
>benefits of drinking fermentables with the yeast still in the container.
>Her doctor had recommended this course of action during a bout with anemia.
>The doctor specifically suggested stout or ale. I was figuring because it
>was more likely these items would be bottle conditioned. Well I got to
>thinking, is there a nutritional difference among the different yeasts? I
>realize they are basically the same yet each strain is different. Would the
>top vs bottom fermentation affect the nutritional value? Any ideas?
I think that yeast is pretty much the same as far as nutritional
value goes. And I think there are lots of good reasons to drink
beer, but this isn't one of them. You could get a WHOLE LOT more
yeast by simply buying two pounds of instant baker's yeast at Sam's
Club for $3.29, and hydrate a spoonful of it every hour and drink it
down. Or buy one pound blocks of fresh baker's yeast from a local
bakery that uses it (less than $1.00) and eat pieces of it. People
used to do this for the supposed health benefits. Or buy dried
nutritional brewer's yeast at a health food store and eat it. Yccch.
I'm skeptical.
People used to recommend stout for anemics and nursing mothers. They
thought that surely something that dark must have lots more nutrients
(iron in particular) than pale beers. Of course, we know that the
only reason stout is so dark is because of roasted grain. No iron.
Drink Geritol if you want iron.
Another shock to some people is to learn that dark so-called
"pumpernickel" is really just light colored rye bread with some
crushed rye kernels and very, very dark caramel coloring. It is no
better or worse for you than other more or less white breads.
True Westphalian pumpernickel, the kind you get thin sliced in square
cellophane packets, is really dark naturally from the ingredients and
process. It is made form 100% coarsely crushed rye kernels, sour
fermented more than a day, and baked many hours at a little over 100C
(212F). This produces lots of Maillard reactions between sugars and
proteins, and makes the bread very dark. I have made this and it's
quite a project, but worth it.
Doctors don't know much about some of these things. My sister got a
yeast infection (the kind females get) and her doctor told her to cut
out all yeast products - bread, beer, wine, etc. Ha! First of all,
the yeast infection women get is Candida, not Saccharomyces. I
called up the doc and asked her just how was it that the yeast in
bread was going to survive baking, and my sister's gut, transmute
itself to Candida, and then get down to the locus of infection.
The doc didn't have much to say in the face of this irrefutable
logic. She then suggested my sister drink lots of cranberry juice.
Probably better advice.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 11:13:09 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander on the road" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brewhouse efficiency
Michael Maag
>Various calculations put my
> efficiency between 75.6% and 78%.
...
> I'm not sure if a longer sparge, or a batch sparge will help, so I
> am going to experiment.
Well do experiment - you'll learn a lot that way.
I've nothing against your mission to increase your efficiency from the
75-78% range but that's really a good figure IMO.
I know a high quality Microbrewers who shoots for 75%. In recent years
I've been purposely pushing my efficiency *down* to the 75% range by
collecting 1st wort and just one batch sparge. Higher extraction
efficiency is associated with poorer flavor quality and you'll find comments
to that effect in the professional textbooks. As a rule the best wort is
from the first runnings and the flavor quality decreases progressively as
the lauter proceeds.
More lauter water and longer lauter times will extract additional
fermentables but also more undesirable phenolics. The phenolic:fermentable
ratio increases as the sparge continues. It's personal judgement call as
to where to cut-off the runnings, but more is almost universally worse. "How
much worse" is the brewers art.
A continuous sparge is probably more efficient than a batch sparge, but a
continuous sparge does not extract evenly (more extraction at the top, less
at the bottom). In practice the sparge type makes only a minor difference.
-S
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4148, 01/18/03
*************************************
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