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HOMEBREW Digest #4115
HOMEBREW Digest #4115 Tue 10 December 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: Fruit Flies through the air-lock (Bob Sheck)
Ayinger yeast ("JENS MAUDAL")
First All-Grain Batch (Teresa Knezek)
cider clearing (Alan McKay)
Old Beer Signs ("David Craft")
False bottoms. (Wendy & Reuben Filsell)
Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. (Larry Bristol)
water profiles Belgian regions ("Groenigen, J.W. van")
Re: Cider clearing.. how much? ("Drew Avis")
Fruit Fly Houdini ("Eric R. Theiner")
"Subject: RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains ("Nichols, Josh")
Re: best propane burner and first all grain results ("Byron's Yahoo Account")
Toledo Metal Spinning - producing a prototype conical fermenter!!!! (FRASERJ)
re: Water Comments ("Jim Dunlap")
Mash tun outlet filters (David Towson)
Cleveland Ohio Water ("Joe Stump")
Apple Cider ("Tom Clark")
Cloudy cider (pectin haze?) - how to clear? (Daniel Chisholm)
Re: Thoughts on False Bottom height ("John Palmer")
Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... (Marc Sedam)
Re: Ayinger yeast, now available (Richard Foote)
Trub (yeast) in septic systems (Richard Foote)
Re: amount of mash in water (Bill Tobler)
Stock Yeasts (mohrstrom)
What's the easiest way to bottle? (thurber)
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 01:05:04 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bobsheck@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Fruit Flies through the air-lock
"Gilbert Milone II" <gilbertmilone@hotmail.com> wondered about
this phenomena~
Remember:
Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
Groucho Marx
Save the beer. Taste it. It may be good. If it's bad, you may want
to use it to cook with. Or if it turns to vinegar, you will have a
lifetime supply of malt vinegar.
Watch out for those arrows. . .
Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck@earthlink.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
Home Brewing since 1993 // bobsheck@earthlink.net //
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:20:57 +0100
From: "JENS MAUDAL" <jens.maudal@c2i.net>
Subject: Ayinger yeast
I have been using the Ayinger yeast in 3 brews now
(from YCKC) and have observed the following.
Yes its a very nice lager yeast probably suitable for most
of the different types of lagers made in Germany apart from
a north german style pilsner.
I think the yeast leaves a fair amount of sweetnes that either
has to be compensated with more bittering hops or less use
of crystal or cara type malts.
I have also experianced a diacetyl problem with this yeast,
especialy in my last Schwarts bier, may be my diacetyl rest
was too short or something, but the beer even considering the
strong taste from dark malts have a pronounced diacetyl taste.
Is this an experiance that others have as well.
Jens
Jens P. Maudal jens.maudal@c2i.net
Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"
Drammen - Norway
Work: +47 32833566, mobile: +47 90540409
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Visit my humble RIMS and homebrew page:
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Norbrygg bryggeside: http://www.norbrygg.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:58:00 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa@mivox.com>
Subject: First All-Grain Batch
Well, after hearing the cost difference between all-grain and partial
mash, cheapskate me ran out and bought 14lbs of grain, a bunch of
vinyl hose (why? I'll get to that... hehe), and brewed up 5 gallons
of stout on my stovetop. :-)
We had an old Coleman cooler in the garage, and I did a little
reading up about false-bottoms vs. manifold lauter tuns, and decided
to try an adapted manifold design (the interior of the cooler was
vertically ribbed, making a tight-fitting false bottom impossible),
which ended up being a double loop of 1" vinyl tube with a bunch of
slits cut in it, rigged up to a T-joint and hose-barb fitting, with
5/16" vinyl tube on the hose barb, and threaded out through the
cooler drain... the flare at the hose barb end made a perfect seal to
the drain. Then I put my too-small-for-all-grain grain bag over the
1" tubing loops, and cinched it up around the hose barb end...
According to the calculators at beertools.com, I fell a bit short of
72% efficiency... they predicted OG of .066, and I ended up with .063
at pitching. But not bad for a stove top mash, and half-assed lauter
manifold... :-) I've got it all in the fermenter now. (The recipe
also calculated out to 6.2% Alcohol by volume, which is a bit high
for an oatmeal stout, so I figured I had a bit of wiggle-room anyhow).
So... what's the worst that can happen if my mashing temp. was a bit
high for part of the mash? I think it maxed-out at around 158degF,
but I tried to keep an eye on it and stir it to bring down the
temperature any time it went over 155.
- --
::Teresa : Two Rivers, Alaska::
[2849, 325] Apparent Rennerian
"It has been my experience that folks who
have no vices have very few virtues."
-- Abraham Lincoln
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:53:31 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay@neap.net>
Subject: cider clearing
This fall I made the first cider in several years, and made 2
batches of it. A bunch of us went out to a local orchard and
got our buckets filled up.
I added pectic enzyme to both, and then pitched DCL S-189.
One then got fermented at low room temp (60F), and the other lagered.
The room temp one got racked off a few weeks later, then
1.5 lb of honey added. Two weeks after that it was crystal clear
though it still fermented slowly for a couple of weeks to work
off the honey.
A week or two after that the lagered one was done fermenting,
and it was still very cloudy. Thinking perhaps I put it into the
fridge before the pectic enzyme had a chance to work, I pulled it
out and let it set at room temp (70F) for almost 2 weeks, and
nothing. Then on Friday I put some gelatin to it, and set it back
into the basement at 60F. Today it is almost crystal clear and
I expect it will be crystal clear in another day or so.
cheers,
-Alan
- --
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:25:30 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Old Beer Signs
Greetings,
Are any other brewers out there collectors of Breweriania? I have been
collecting old signs, mostly TOC, tin over cardboard. I prefer signs from
the 50's and earlier and from obscure beers and brewers..
North Carolina was not a hotbed of brewing, ever. Moonshine yes, beer no!
Much of what I collect is from up north. I am looking for people or books
that help with some history of the signs I collect and would appreciate any
advice.
'They make a great addition to my Brew Room!
Brew on,
David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:46:57 +0800
From: Wendy & Reuben Filsell <filsell@myplace.net.au>
Subject: False bottoms.
> From: homebrew-request@hbd.org (Request Address Only - No Articles)
> Reply-To: homebrew@hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:35:36 -0500
> To: homebrew@hbd.org
> Subject: Homebrew Digest #4114 (December 09, 2002)
>
> Reuben you've got to explain this one... High circulation rates can lead to
> compaction, but having your false bottom too far off the bottom of the tun
> won't - though it can increase the circulation volume required to achieve
> runoff clarity, and in some small measure reduce extraction efficiency due
> to hold-up.
I won't attempt to explain the physics, perhaps others can contribute, but I
can say that by following the advice in the references below my lautering
improved dramatically. ( I was using a double bucket set up and moved to a
Phil's phalse bottom).
"The false bottom of the lauter tun stands of the bottom of the tun by only
0.3 to 0.6 inches (8to15mm).This minimises the volume of underletting needed
as well as minimising the hydrostatic head that, through the suction
created, tends to compact the mash bed." Bock Darryl Richman Classic Beer
Style Series #9.
"The distance between the true and false bottom should not exceed 10-12mm.
or an undue amount of turbid wort will pass through and there will also be
some suction on the filter-bed" A Textbook of Brewing Vol I Jean De Clerk.
any help?
Reuben
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:31:32 -0600
From: Larry Bristol <larry@doubleluck.com>
Subject: Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:35:58 -0500, "Steve Alexander"
<steve-alexander@att.net> wrote:
> Anyone care to comment on their experience wrt Wyeast vs
> WhiteLabs products ? Range, quality ... If you had to live
> with only one which would it be ? That may be a question
> the marketplace answers soon.
Both are availale at my LHBS and I have had excellent results with both.
I slightly prefer the pitchable tubes from WL over than the "punch n'
swell" WY packages. This is a big advantage. At least, it was back when
I was making 5 gallon batches. Since I now do 10 gallon batches (and am
too cheap to buy two tubes), all this means is that the yeast starter is
easier to prepare.
That is, assuming I am not lazy and simply underpitch (one tube in 10
gallons). Interestingly, I have found that the WL yeasts are viable
enough (perhaps they are being even more conservative with that tighter
date spec that one might imagine) that the lag time is not extended all
that much. I did not notice a difference in the results when I did a
[GASP!] head-to-head comparison of one tube vs. two. Since one tube has
enough yeast for 5 gallons, perhaps it only needs one generation to
produce enough for 10. So what IS the time it takes for a yeast
population to double? <grin>
At any rate, I think your comments about the possibility of having only
one available in future are well grounded in this economic environment.
If I had to make do with one, I would prefer either one! As long as that
one was able to stick around and continue to give us a choice of one,
rather than none.
- --
Larry Bristol
The Double Luck
Bellville, TX
http://www.doubleluck.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:00:41 +0100
From: "Groenigen, J.W. van" <J.W.vanGroenigen@Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
Subject: water profiles Belgian regions
Hi all,
Jacques Bertens, a Dutch homebrewer with a very informative but
Dutch-language website ( www.hobbybrouwen.nl ) asked me to translate a short
overview of Belgian brewing waters he compiled. As there is not much on the
web on this subject, I think it might be of interest to some of you:
[begin quote]
Below, water profiles of several regions in Belgium are listed. I composed
these water profiles together with Ronald Baert some 5 years ago, based on
information provided by Belgian water companies. We received information
from more than 100 pumping stations. Unfortunately, the information provided
by the Walloon companies wasn't always complete. E.g., sometimes only
hardness was provided. Below, I only listed those pumping stations that
provided full analyses. All data are in mg/kg (ppm) of the cation (so e.g.
Ca, not CaCO3):
Province/region Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl HCO3 Hardness
1. Antwerpen / Anvers 65 7 16 48 30 159 189
2. Brabant 111 12 14 74 40 315 328
3. Henegouwen / Hainaut 113 17 15 65 41 355 351
(Charleroi)
4. Achouffe 29 4 12 12 35 72 87
5. Orval 96 4 5 25 13 287 257
6. Rochefort 82 10 6 32 17 240 246
7. Chimay 70 7 7 21 21 216 203
8. Luik / Liege 60 15 11 28 24 231 213
9. East Flanders 134 22 52 76 47 306 424
10. West Flanders 114 10 125 145 139 370 328
11. Henegouwen / Hainaut 116 25 101 106 45 598 389
(Saisons)
12. Average Ardennes 60 13 11 25 24 213 200
Naturally, the water that is being used by the breweries might deviate
somewhat from these profiles if they have their own wells. However,
generally they should be quite close. I clustered the water profiles as much
as possible according to provinces/regions in Belgium.
Obviously, several different groundwater zones can be delineated from these
data. Along the coast (West Flanders) the water is relatively salt.
According to the literature, Na - ions tend to give a sour taste. This might
partially explain the variety of sour ales (Flemish browns etc.)
traditionally brewed in this part of Belgium. In the eastern part of
Belgium, the water tends to be softer, containing few minerals. The "average
Ardennes" entry is the average of water profiles from Liege, Achouffe,
Orval, Rochefrot and Chimay. Other wells/pumping stations in the Ardennes
(e.g. Spa, Malmedy, La Roche) are also soft and relatively low in minerals.
In order to relate these water profiles to beers that are brewed from it, I
listed the names of well-known breweries located within these areas below:
Breweries located in the regions:
West Malle, De Konink, Duvel, Het Anker
Belle-Vue, Frank Boon, Cantillon, De Troch, Girardin, Hoegaarden, Palm,
Lefebvre, Drie Fonteyn, Haacht
Maes
Brasserie d'Achouffe
Brasserie d'Orval
Abbaye Notre Dame - Rochefort
Abbaye de Scourmont - Chimay
Jupiler
Bios, Bosteels, Crombe, De Ryck, Huyghe, Liefmans, Roman
West Vleteren, Bavik, De Dolle Brouwers, De Gouden Boom, Riva, Rodenbach,
Sint Bernardus, van Eecke, Van Honsebrouck
Brasserie de Pipaix, Dubuisson, Dupont, Brasserie de Silly
Jacques
[end quote]
Take care, Jan Willem
Wageningen, the Netherlands
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:44:46 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cider clearing.. how much?
Mike Barkhamsted asks about how much his hard cider will clear. The answer,
of course, is "it depends". I've found that adding pectic enzyme to the
juice before fermentation starts really aids in clarification - I have a
cyser now that is ready to keg, and it's as clear as a nice white wine
(i.e., read a newspaper through the carboy). I made a cider from fresh
juice 3 years ago and forgot the pectic enzyme - it never did clear, even
after 6 months (though hitting it w/ bentonite and polyclar helped).
Since most folks add sugar/honey/raisins etc to cider, it often takes longer
to ferment out and then clear than most beers. This current cyser took
about 5 weeks to ferment and clear, at an OG of 1.062.
Cheers!
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario
http://www.strangebrew.ca
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:38:54 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <rickdude02@earthlink.net>
Subject: Fruit Fly Houdini
>Gil writes:
>I recently brewed a Fat Tyre cloan, and had it in secondary for almost
>two months. Today I bottled it, and after I was finished I noticed 5-10
>fruit flies in the bottom of the bucket. Does anyone know how they make
>it through an air lock? Maybe I need to start putting mesh around the
>air lock so the fruit flies can't get in? I'm stumped. Should I through
>the beer out?
Don't throw it out-- wait to see how it is!
As for how they got in, I have two ideas. First, if you left the beer in
secondary for 2 months, your water level may have gotten low in your
fermentation lock and they flew in. That seems unlikely considering the
path they'd have to take, but it's worth checking out. I know that
extended secondaries will dry my fermentation lock out if I don't top them
up every now and then.
The second idea, which seems more likely if you're using "bubbler" type
locks and are conscientious about topping your locks up, is that they flew
into the water, drowned, and were pulled into the fermenter by the varying
pressures that come from warm days and cool nights. It's not uncommon for
me to have 4 or 5 drowned fruit flies in my fermentation locks, so I'd
think that's where yours are coming from.
Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:44:06 -0600
From: "Nichols, Josh" <Josh.Nichols@us.gambro.com>
Subject: "Subject: RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains
"Subject: RE: Feeding Horses Spent Grains
No problem feeding the horses the spent grains although I would not feed it
if there were hops mixed into the grain. i.e.. Mash Hopping. I'm not saying
that would be bad but it would be bad for some dogs so I'm not taking any
chances."
Is hops bad for dogs? I had never heard that?
josh
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:51:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Byron's Yahoo Account" <btowles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: best propane burner and first all grain results
Steve,
One thing to keep in mind is pot diameters. If you go to a 10 gallon setup,
you may eventually want to go to a converted keg for your boil pot. I got a
keg and converted it myself for my boil pot. When the conversion was done, I
checked it on my burner, and the diameter of my burner was about 1/2" too
small all the way around. If your brewpot has a flat bottom, this isn't a
concern, but with my keg, it was a large concern. I had to bring my burner in
and have someone weld some additional supports on the diameter to increase the
available footprint for my keg. Just something to keep in mind.
One a side note, I kegged my first all grain this weekend. Seven days in
primary, 6 days in secondary dry hopped with 1 oz of 8.1 cascade. The brewing
wasn't a big deal, but force carbonating was an adventure in itself. Thanks to
the past 3 days or so of the HBD (which I read last night), I've gotten the
directions I need for carbonating. I ended up carbonating the 70% full keg
adequately and it tasted pretty damned good. A bit too bitter for APA, but IPA
might work. I'll know next time.
Byron Towles
Crescent City Homebrewers
New Orleans, LA
[misplaced AR coords go here]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:20:34 -0500
From: FRASERJ@Nationwide.com
Subject: Toledo Metal Spinning - producing a prototype conical fermenter!!!!
Just ordered a 12.5 gallon conical from TMS, interesting part was that she
informed me that in the next month or so they should have completed their
prototype of a conical fermenter for homebrewers! They have had so much
interest from homebrewers and have seen the prices others are selling them
for and figure
they can do as good.
I cannot wait to see theirs, though I will have already finished
construction of mine by then, but still, its good to see competition to the
likes of morebeer.com and others where the price is way beyond the average
home brewer.
John M. Fraser
http://rims-brewing.tripod.com now with no pop-ups!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:27:33 -0800
From: "Jim Dunlap" <jdpils@attbi.com>
Subject: re: Water Comments
AJ,
What about adding lactic acid to reduce pH? Here in Seattle the pH has gone
up from about 8 to 8.5 and the Ca and hardness as Ca CO3 has almost doubled
over the past year from from each to 21 and 12 to 19 and 21, while the
alklinity as Ca CO3 has remained the same.
I have found that adjusting the pH downward to the low 7 range, with 88%
lactic acid to help maintain proper mash pH for beers like pilsener and
hefeweizen. For most beers past amber the pH in the mash gets too low. It
does not seem like adding CaCO3 helps much. What ways would you suggest to
raise mash pH? Should I treas mash water first or during the mash?
Thanks
Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:35:48 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson@comcast.net>
Subject: Mash tun outlet filters
In HBD 4114, Steve Alexander says, "I think a lot of newbie all-grainers
miss the point when they look toward adding screens or filters on the
outlet side. The grist bed *IS* the filter and the false bottom is just
a porous support for the gristbed to build upon. "
I agree mostly, but there is another consideration. When recirculating,
some degree of pump throttling is needed to prevent excessive flow that
would compact the mash. This throttling is done with a partly closed
valve. Little bits of grain, if allowed into the valve, get caught and
build up, causing blocking of the aperture. That requires occasional
"burping" of the valve to clear out the crud, and restore the flow to an
acceptable level. IMO, that is a real pain. An outlet filter eliminates
this problem.
Dave
Bel Air, MD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:43:38 -0500
From: "Joe Stump" <joestump@adelphia.net>
Subject: Cleveland Ohio Water
Does anyone have the numbers for water for Cleveland Ohio?
I need to plug them into Pro Mash. On a water analysis sheet
from the CWD they don't list bicarbonates, but they do list
alkalinity and hardness.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:48:07 -0500
From: "Tom Clark" <rtclark@citynet.net>
Subject: Apple Cider
Over the past few years I have become more of a winemaker than a home
brewer. I have made hard cider or apple wine the past two years and both
times it came out very clear and water white.
This year I started out with the best Amish apple cider I ever tasted, from
the Sugarcreek area of Ohio. ten drops of pectin enzyme per gallon was
added at the begining, using Red Star Champaign yeast and adding a bit of
yeast nutrient. When fermentation was complete, potasium meta-bisulfite and
potasium sorbate were added to stabilize the cider and prevent further
fermentation then, gelatin as a clarifying agent. Finally, ran the whole
thing through an inexpensive wine filter before bottling. I bottled it in
375 milliliter bottles and added one cinnamon "red-hot" candy to each
bottle. Although this does not have any "fizzy", it is perfectly clear
with a slight pink cast from the candy. As I recall, it was a bit cloudy
prior to filtering. The filter pad came out the color of a pumpkin.
Good luck.
Tom Clark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 14:25:30 -0400
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc@nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Cloudy cider (pectin haze?) - how to clear?
I made a simple cider around the middle of October (fresh pressed apple
juice from a local orchard, plus some (rehydrated!;-) Lalvin-K1V-1116
yeast -- nothing else!).
The fermentation finished up a long time ago, but it steadfastly refuses
to clear. I've racked it once already (fermented in glass carboys,
racked into glass), hoping that the disturbance/mild air contact might
kick off a clearing, but no joy.
I'm now theorizing that the apple juice I had was probably made from
under ripe apples, and therefore too rich in pectin. The juice's
gravity was a surprisingly-low 1.036 (I was expecting upper 40s to mid
50s). I guess I should have bought some pectic enzyme, and let that
work away before pitching my yeast. Hey, I'm a beer guy, I don't
automatically generate a list of five additives to throw in at each
stage of the process! ;-)
Is there anything I can do now? I've got the usual assortment of
finings (Isinglass, bentonite, PolyClar, gelatine). Can pectic enzyme
help now, or is it way too late?
Also, the taste is rather thin and tart - not very impressive, but
probably not surprising given what I started with. Is there any way I
can make it stronger (taste-wise)? There's really not a whole lot of
flavour there, and I think that it's probably too late now to get fresh
apple juice anymore (if I could, I'd think about adding some
freeze-concentrated fresh apple juice). I'd rather not add spices (at
least not to all of it), but I suppose I'll do that if I must...
"Is My Cider Ruined"? ;-)
- --
- Daniel
Fredericton, NB Canada
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:55:40 -0800
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer@altrionet.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on False Bottom height
Hi Group,
Tough questions, thanks for volunteering me Steve ;-). All of the following
comments are based on my experimental data and the computer models that
Brian Kern and I developed. You can probably find some posts in the archives
around spring/summer 2001. And there are some pictures on my website
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
The assertion was that a higher falsebottom standoff height causing more
compaction of the grainbed due to higher pressure differential.
Hmmm, no, I don't have any observations to support that. I observed fluid
flow (using food coloring) in a 10 gallon aquarium using Phil's Phalse
Bottom material with the pickup centered in the first fourth of the length.
In other words, pickup was at one end of the aquarium about 4 inches from 3
walls and about 12 inches from the far wall. Observingt the flow of dye down
thru the grainbed and looking thru the glass bottom showed the the first
point of entry was actually at the far end of the aquarium, not near the
pickup. Observation over the next couple minutes showed multiple random
entry points. The false bottom height was about 1 inch for all experiments,
I never varied it.
The only cause of grain compaction that I could see was due to high flow
rate. If you think about this, then you can conjecture that a smaller false
bottom area and/or a deeper grainbed in conjunction with a high flow rate
("high" being dependent on the permeability and geometry of the particular
grainbed) would have a greater chance of compaction and a "stuck sparge."
Professional brewery lauter tuns usually have multiple pickups spaced 1-2 ft
apart. This spacing would depend of the total volume of the lauter tun. I
believe Narziss had some calculations included in one of his books that
outlined those considerations. On the homebrewing scale, I have not seen nor
modeled a need for more than one pickup. Keep your sparge water level at
least an inch above the grainbed to keep your grainbed suspended/fluid, keep
your lauter flow slow, and as Steve says, grainbed a foot deep or more have
no problems with compaction.
Oops, gotta get to a meeting,
Let me know if you have any questions,
John
john@howtobrew.com
www.howtobrew.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:56:19 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ...
Honestly I don't see that the yeast supplier debate is an either/or
issue. I have been brewing 75% of my beers using the WhiteLabs yeast
over the past two years, 20% with dry yeast, and 5% with Wyeast. But
compare that to the first eight years I brewed when it was 95% Wyeast
and 5% dry yeast.
I like to brew using the WL yeasts when I know that I'm going to brew in
a couple of weeks. I tend to brew in bursts, so I'll order up two or
three strains from WL knowing that I'll be pitching them soon enough.
WL is, IMHO, very conservative with the "use by" dates on its vials.
I do have a few smack packs of Wyeast still in storage and find that
they will work just fine even 18 months after the date stamp provided
you nurture it back to life using stepped-up starters. I really
appreciate Wyeast carrying "alternate fermenters" like pediococcus,
Brett. lambicus, and Lactobacillus delbruckii. If not for a reasonable
availibility of the lacto culture, my Berliner weisses would just be
weisses. I find this a wonderful service to the community.
I brew with dry yeasts when I brew medium to low gravity beers that I
want to be drinking in a week. I've made a few milds and bitters using
the old Edme dry yeast that was 4 days from grain to glass and didn't
even taste very green. I've brewed extensively with the DCL yeasts
(Safale and Saflager brands) and am very pleased with the results. The
Saflager S-23 yeast *is* a little bit fruity, but I certainly don't find
it distasteful even in CAPs.
What I have found over the past few years is WL's interest in
maintaining creative yeast strains brought to them by the HB community.
I have brewed with Jeff R's "Ridley's" strain and enjoy it, but am too
lazy of a brewer to do a true yeast ranch. I have made a concerted
effort over the past year to keep the Ayinger strain alive and kicking
because it does such a wonderful job with lagers. I further agree with
Jeff that this would be an incredibly popular yeast (it's been a HB cult
favorite for years) if offered in the regular WL rotation, but think the
name is just fine. Ayinger is a trademark of the company that cultured
the yeast, but they are known quite well for the plastic goat on their
bottles of bock. Of course if WL described its origins as "having come
from a world-reknowned brewery located in Aying, Germany" then we're
clear of all trademark issues and everyone would know from whence the
yeast came.
There is plenty of room for two "wet" yeast suppliers in the HB market
and I think each has a separate niche in the market besides the 80%
middle ground that both serve. What will be interesting to see is how
each responds to the increasing quality of the dry yeasts on the market,
including dry lager yeasts. I've brewed extensively with the DCL yeasts
(Safale and Saflager brands) and am very pleased with the results. The
Saflager S-23 yeast *is* a little bit fruity, but I certainly don't find
it distasteful even in CAPs.
Cheers!
Marc
>It seems the yeast market is diluting as WL pulls up against
>Wyeast in range and quality and several dry yeasts are
>clearly good enough for serious brewing. I wish 'em all well,
>but I have serious doubts that all can survive in the HB market.
>Obviously these places produce for commercial breweries, and
>the big dry yeast companies have tiny costs involved in packing
>yeast for the HB market. It's packaging active wet yeast with
>short shelf-life for the HB market that is a marginal. My local
>HB shop isn't so keen on WL. It's a high volume shop, but they
>have a lot of WLtubes go out-of-date and they don't even carry
>the full list. I suspect WLs dating spec is tighter than Wyeast ,
>which is a plus for the brewer but a loss for the brewshop.
>
>I know there are/have-been other wet-yeast vendors but these
>guys seem to small and nitchy or attached to a shop like
>Williams that prefers to package their own brands. Wyeast
>and WhiteLabs seem to me to be the two places that are facing
>the forces of this tiny HB wet-yeast market head-on.
>
>Anyone care to comment on their experience wrt Wyeast vs
>WhiteLabs products ? Range, quality ... If you had to live
>with only one which would it be ? That may be a question
>the marketplace answers soon.
>
>-S
>
>
>
>
>
>
- --
Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-4105
919.966.3929 (phone)
919.962.0646 (fax)
OTD site : http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
Monthly Seminar Info: http://www.research.unc.edu/otd/seminar/
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:18:30 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Ayinger yeast, now available
Hi All,
Joining in on the Ayinger thread...
Jeff R. writes:
>As many people have, I can attest to this being a great lager
>yeast. I use it almost exclusively for lagers as I think it does as
>well in a CAP as a dunkles or a bock.
I was sorry to hear Dan was hanging it up, as I've been a devotee of
Ayinger for 2-3 years now (since Jeff turned me onto it). It came out
number two among five lager strains chosen in our club's little yeast
'spurment. That and the tasty beers I've been fortunate to brew with this
yeast is good enough for me to want to continue using it. I'm so glad it
will continue to be offered. I for one would like to see it offered
year-round.
Continuing to refer to it as "Ayinger" would be preferred but perhaps there
is some reason it can't?
I'll closely guard one of the last slants of Ayinger until WL offers it.
BTW, I've gottten good results with slants up to 1.5 years old!
Rick Foote
Whistle Peg Brewing
Murrayville, GA
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 15:45:53 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote@mindspring.com>
Subject: Trub (yeast) in septic systems
Brewers,
Excuse me for just getting caught up on my reading of the HBD. Work can be
such a drag. Anyway, I'd like to add a data point to the discussion of
yeast or trub and home septic systems...
Jim Bermingham on 26 Nov 2002 (HBD 4104) wrote:
>On adding yeast to your septic system, Dennis Collins said that he would
>be hesitant to do this if
>you had a septic tank. Septic systems love yeast. For your friends that
>do not brew, encourage them to add yeast to their septic system at least
>once a month. This will cut down on problems they may have in the future.
Back to me:
Just this summer I had my septic tank pumped after living in my house ten
years. I took the day off to be home when the honey dippers arrived.
The house was built in 1983, and I'm sure this is the first time the tank
was pumped. During all of those ten years, I have brewed, dumped iodophor,
bleach soln., yeast, trub, whatever down the drain. I do, however, usually
dump the thick "first dump" of yeast slurry outside on the grass/weeds, but
some yeast does go down the drain. I am also mindful of dumping more
iodphore/bleach down the drain than necessary. At any rate, I was
especially curious to quiz the plumbers on the condition of my system.
They said everything looked good, no problems. This is after nearly 20
years of no maintenance! YMMV, YYY.
BTW, home septic tanks should be pumped every three to five years. Three
hundred dollars once in a while is better than ten times (or more) for
system re-hab. NAHTH (no affiliation hope this helps).
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 17:06:57 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: amount of mash in water
Fred wants a formula for figuring mash water and sparge water for 5 and 10
gallon batches. Fred, you're going to get allot of answers here. Here are
some good points:
1. Add enough water to the mash so a golf ball sinks VERY slowly to the
bottom. (If you can figure out how to tell how fast the ball is sinking,
please let me know) This will end up at about 1.3 quarts of water per
pound of grist.
2. After the mash, start draining the Mash Tun into your kettle while
adding sparge water at the same rate as you are draining. Stop when you
collect 7 gallons for a 5 gallon batch or 12 gallons for a 10 gallon batch.
How much is that? Read on...
Now, if you really want to get confused, you can read Ray Daniels take on
how much water to use. He knows a little more about this than me.
http://www.allaboutbeer.com/homebrew/water.html
Also, you can download Promash at http://www.promash.com. You get a free
trial version, and it does all the figuring for you. (This is what I do) To
buy the software is only 25-30 dollars. Very reasonable.
Another plug is for John Palmers Book, http://www.howtobrew.com He tells
you all about it too.
PS: Don't forget to remove the golf ball.
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:05:15 -0500
From: mohrstrom@core.com
Subject: Stock Yeasts
Steve A. observes:
> My local HB shop isn't so keen on WL. It's a high
> volume shop, but they have a lot of WLtubes go
> out-of-date and they don't even carry the full list.
Unless something has changed, I believe your shop is missing a great
opportunity to serve its market. White Labs ha(s)(d) a program that
would allow a shop to swap expired tubes (3 for 2?) for fresh on a
quarterly basis. The requirement was that the shop stock the _entire_
WL line.
Downside would be a higher initial investment for the shop, but the
upside should be a wider offering, and the assurance to the clientele that
the yeast in stock was fresh. Market theory would reward this with
greater traffic, higher sales and better profits.
Of course, YMMV ...
Mark in Kalamazoo
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Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 20:28:38 -0500
From: thurber <thurber@adelphia.net>
Subject: What's the easiest way to bottle?
I know this is a dumb question. I've looked through the archives and
haven't really come up
with an answer, though.
When I bottle, what I usually do is run the bottles through a sink
faucet mounted bottle washer
and rinse (and brush) whatever "stuff" may be in the bottle, then cart
all of the bottles upstairs
to the kitchen dishwasher, and with my wife's permission, put the 54
bottles in and run them
through the rinse cycle with no detergent and the heat dryer on.
This works out pretty well and I don't get any infected bottles. But, it's
too much work...
So, the question is, can I get away with, let's say, a rinse with a
bottle washer attached to the
faucet, then a dip in a bucket of iodophor solution, drip dry, then
bottle?
I apologize if this question has been asked a million times, as it
probably has.
Any suggestions to make bottling really easy would be most welcome. I
know I could use
kegs, but I'd prefer not to. An answer to this on the list might help a
few other new brewers
as well.
Thanks and happy holidays.
Fran km1z
Burlington Vt
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #4115, 12/10/02
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