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HOMEBREW Digest #4116
HOMEBREW Digest #4116 Wed 11 December 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Ayinger Yeast - Yeast Wars ("Graham L Sanders")
A good week... (Teresa Knezek)
Re: white labs vs wyeast ("greg man")
backwards mash flow (aa8jzdial)
water profiles Belgian regions: a correction ("Groenigen, J.W. van")
Re: What's the easiest way to bottle? (David Radwin)
clogged keg & all-grain setup ("Rich Lanam")
how much sparge water to use (Marc Sedam)
Re: What's the easiest way to bottle? (Kevin White)
Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast (David Towson)
Re: Brewing as a profession (Bill Wible)
re: yeast wars ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Re: brewing as a career (Bill Wible)
Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. (Bill Wible)
Luke Maltstalker vs. Darth Fermentor (Pat Babcock)
Re: Ayinger yeast (Jeff Renner)
Sanitizing bottles with Iodophor (LJ Vitt)
Fridge Guy Type Question (Richard Foote)
Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ... (Jeff Renner)
Experiments with corn, the final chapter... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51@ICCNET.COM>
Geuze ("Berggren, Stefan")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:37:18 +1000
From: "Graham L Sanders" <craftbrewer@bigpond.com>
Subject: Ayinger Yeast - Yeast Wars
G'Day All
With the build-up well and truly here in utopia, (oh thats summer to
the non-tropical people), all one can do is just sit back and enjoy the
great beers of the world, like the famed Tripical flower Wit. Too hot
to do anything else, and that includes work. (and play come to think
of it). This can be a good thing as any-one who has had the misfortune
of actually seeing SWMBO will always let fly "you actually sleep next
to that, AND TOUCH IT!!!!!!!! and your still alive".
But Jeff comments to this has stired me into a sweat on the keyboard.
>>>>>I handed a semi-precious sample of the Ayinger yeast given to
me by a non-Renner homebrewer overto Chris White at WhiteLabs.
This is now available as German BockYeast.<<<<<<
>>>>>I only wish he would call it Ayinger since it is a legendary yeast
under that name here and in Australia.........I hope it sells well enough
to become a regular yeast. I'll bet it would if it were sold as Ayinger.<
Yes in Aus the Ayinger is more popular than bullets and spotlights
outback. So many Skippy's you only have to throw a rock at them
to put their lights out. The Ayinger was brought out to Aus years ago
and constantly does the rounds with brewers over here. All you have
to do is coo-ee you need some and next minute they pop up in the
post quicker than my love life. It is truly a great yeast and I agree with
Jeff the best lager yeast.
When Chris White came to Aus earlier this year, we bombarded him
about this yeast. He took back a number a samples of this yeast from
us to trial. He reported the samples survived his trip, unlike himself,
and they grew fine. Last we heard he was going to test them out.
Who's sample he used doesn't really matter, but like Jeff, it amazes
me that Chris has named it German Bock yeast. Is he MAD. It would
sell like hot cakes if he named it Ayinger. There would be no copy
right involved as there is a town by that name in Germany, so he
could say its named after the town.
Further, I feel while the ayinger is a great all round lager yeast, it
properties really come to the fore in lighter coloured lagers than the
heavier bocks. It would be a real dis-service and even misleading to
name it a bock yeast, as many will not realise its full potential.
One way to ruin a good product. - Give it to Marketing!!!!!!!!!
Speaking of some-one who needs a marketing manager,
Young Steve wrote>>>>>>Anyone care to comment on their
experience wrt Wyeast vs WhiteLabs products ?<<<<<<
I would summise that the majority of craftbrewers would not be
able to tell the difference between the stables of the two companies.
It would boil down more to whether you like a smack-pack verses
a tube. More experienced brewers no doubt would have their
favourites. I am no exception.
I have picked the eyes out of a number of companies yeast range,
including Aussie yeast companies, and have what I feel is quite a
comprehensive range of what I think are the best yeasts in my
Yeast Station. Without listing them, Neither company dominates
my yeast station.
But in a competitive world, thats how it should be.
Shout
Graham Sanders
Oh - The salties are about and very active. We have lost another yank
to a water lizard, taken in a water hole. Why dont they learn, dont swim
in most places up here. Thank god our babies seem to like tourists.
They must be not as tough as us locals. Thou I can understand why
these tourists do this, seeing the locals waist deep in the same water.
Thats till we see one.
Just yesterday, two Townsville boys were in the surf up their waste
fishing. That was until a 20 foot baby swam right past them. Well
they have worked out how JC walked on water. Easy they recon.
Just need the right motivation.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:59:48 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa@mivox.com>
Subject: A good week...
This weekend I got my amber bottled, brewed an all grain stout... and
today, oh joy!, my beer engine arrive from N. Yorkshire. :-) The
stout will be the first batch I try it on, assuming I can figure out
how to attach it to a mini-keg pull-out spout. (Teresa's adventures
in cheapskate equipment engineering are never-ending...)
Now I'm off to pull some water through it, and see if there's any
repair work to be done. :-)
- --
::Teresa : Two Rivers, Alaska::
[2849, 325] Apparent Rennerian
"It has been my experience that folks who
have no vices have very few virtues."
-- Abraham Lincoln
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:24:58 -0500
From: "greg man" <dropthebeer@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: white labs vs wyeast
Anyone care to comment on their experience with Wyeast vs
WhiteLabs products ? Range, quality ... If you had to live
with only one which would it be ? That may be a question
the marketplace answers soon.
-S
This is a hard question to answer so I'll try to reply with little or no
bias. Both company's make a good product. The large smack packs from wyeast
work well as long as I've made a starter when brewing with them.
The white lab tubes are "so called pitch-able" but I have had extra long lag
times when brewing lagers an just pouring them in. They might be better
suited for ales however just to be safe I make a 1/3 gallon starter for ales
an almost a gallon for lagers. This is S.O.P. for me when using wyeast or
whitelabs.
As far as the quality of the product. This is a little harder to quantify
with out a lab! However given my personal experience, If both are fresh an
up to date they seem to work about the same for me.
My only major complaint comes not from the company's but really the
suppliers of these yeasts. Many times I have found even reputable an well
know homebrew shops that will try an pass off an older smack pack of wyeast.
These aged beasties in my brewery (if you can call it that) do not function
as well as fresher packs.
Even though wyeast says on there bags to just add "one day per month"
incubation period, the beer just IMHO doesn't come out as good as the
fresher ones.
In order to back that statement up, I had a few beers that were entered in
competition where they scored well but, the yeast was sited as the possible
problem for causing a slight off flavor? The yeast age was questioned as the
possible culprit! This happened more than once.
I used to brew with these older yeasts thinking nothing of it. Now I'm
guessing there is a difference an fresher is better.
As I mentioned this is not a problem with either company's as much as it is
with suppliers. So beware of homebrew shops that try to dump these old
supply's off on you.
To fix this I switched to white labs an grew my own yeast ranch :)
>From what I have heard white labs is more dedicated to keeping fresh yeast
in homebrew shops, even allowing them to return out of date tubes for newer
ones.
To date I have not received any old tubes of whitelabs!
That's my 2 cents an from what you can read that's about all its
worth........................gregman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:42:54 +0000
From: aa8jzdial@attbi.com
Subject: backwards mash flow
Greetings all.
A stuck mash is a terrible thing. I have found out once too often.
The carona is getting trashed and a good mill is in the works.
Has anyone tried reversing the flow through the mash? Against gravity with a
pump and overflowing out a spout or such off the top of the mash?
If the mash is too thick, would the pressure from the pump cause it loosen?.
Feedback would be appreciated before the time and hardware investment.
Another note. Any brewers out there that might also be ham radio ops?
An on the air gathering to hob knob brewing may be fun.
tnx
rick
aa8jz
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:40:16 +0100
From: "Groenigen, J.W. van" <J.W.vanGroenigen@Alterra.wag-ur.nl>
Subject: water profiles Belgian regions: a correction
Hi all,
Somehow the numbers on the list of Belgian breweries that I posted yesterday
was removed, so it was probably difficult to relate the different breweries
to the water profiles. So, once more, the two lists:
Province/region Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl HCO3 Hardness
1. Antwerpen / Anvers 65 7 16 48 30 159 189
2. Brabant 111 12 14 74 40 315 328
3. Henegouwen / Hainaut 113 17 15 65 41 355 351
(Charleroi)
4. Achouffe 29 4 12 12 35 72 87
5. Orval 96 4 5 25 13 287 257
6. Rochefort 82 10 6 32 17 240 246
7. Chimay 70 7 7 21 21 216 203
8. Luik / Liege 60 15 11 28 24 231 213
9. East Flanders 134 22 52 76 47 306 424
10. West Flanders 114 10 125 145 139 370 328
11. Henegouwen / Hainaut 116 25 101 106 45 598 389
(Saisons)
12. Average Ardennes 60 13 11 25 24 213 200
Breweries located in the regions:
1) West Malle, De Konink, Duvel, Het Anker
2) Belle-Vue, Frank Boon, Cantillon, De Troch, Girardin, Hoegaarden, Palm,
Lefebvre, Drie Fonteyn, Haacht
3) Maes
4) Brasserie d'Achouffe
5) Brasserie d'Orval
6) Abbaye Notre Dame - Rochefort
7) Abbaye de Scourmont - Chimay
8) Jupiler
9) Bios, Bosteels, Crombe, De Ryck, Huyghe, Liefmans, Roman
10) West Vleteren, Bavik, De Dolle Brouwers, De Gouden Boom, Riva,
Rodenbach,
Sint Bernardus, van Eecke, Van Honsebrouck
11) Brasserie de Pipaix, Dubuisson, Dupont, Brasserie de Silly
Jacques Bertens / Jan Willem van Groenigen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:59:17 -0800
From: David Radwin <dradwin@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: What's the easiest way to bottle?
> Any suggestions to make bottling really easy would be most welcome. I
> know I could use
Don't stop using your dishwasher. The trick is to clean the bottles
ahead of time before the yeast dries out and becomes difficult to remove.
After drinking a bottle of homebrew, quickly rinse out the yeast, etc. I
just add a little water, cover the top with my thumb, and shake
vigorously. Repeat once or twice to be sure. Store the clean (but not
yet sanitized) bottles in a closed container (like a plastic trash can
with locking lid). Sanitize bottles in the dishwasher several hours or
the night before bottling, which will allow the bottles to cool down and
dry off. Using this system I've never had any infections, I never use
the bottle brush, and I rarely have to mix up sanitizing solution.
Another trick is to place the bottling bucket on the counter above the
open dishwasher door. Whenever I spill during the bottling process
(usually at least once per batch!), I don't have to clean it up--the
dishwasher takes care of that.
David Radwin in Berkeley, CA
news@removethispart.davidradwin.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:20:43 -0500
From: "Rich Lanam" <rlanam@kaplancollege.edu>
Subject: clogged keg & all-grain setup
I had read about how hops used to be put directly in the cask. Without
thinking through the possible side-effects, I put hops directly in my
keg. Well, it clogged he whole thing up and I ended up spending a few
hours reducing the pressure and transferring the beer. I hope someone
can learn from my mistake.
I am primarily an extract brewer, but have done all-grain twice. My long
term goal is to someday brew professionally. What type of inexpensive
all-grain setup would most closely resemble a small professional
installation -- or at least provide experience in controlling the
variables that I'd need to become familiar with?
-Rich Lanam
SuperFundBrewing
Warren, NJ
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:58:56 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: how much sparge water to use
There are certainly calculations after calculations to use for this. I
wind up using a rule of thumb that seems to work out just fine.
I brew all of my beers using a ratio of 1.25qt water/ lb of grain.
Dunno why...I just like it. Anyway, by using this ratio to start I
find that I need an amount of sparge water of exactly the same volume as
I want to have for the final batch. If I'm making 5 gallons of beer, I
use 5 gallons of sparge water. 10 gallons of beer? 10 gallons of
sparge water. And so on...
I'm sure that it is a combination of the mash ratio and my boiling rate
(use a cajun cooker/converted keg boiler) but the ease of doing it this
way works so well for me I don't think about it.
The slightly less lazy way is to buy StrangeBrew or ProMash and let them
calculate it all for you.
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:12:23 -0500
From: Kevin White <kwhite@bcpl.net>
Subject: Re: What's the easiest way to bottle?
Fran in Burlington Vt asks, "What's the easiest way to bottle?"
I think your question is "What's the easiest way to sanitize
bottles?"
I start by always (ALWAYS) thoroughly rinsing the bottle
immediately after pouring the beer. This is MUCH easier than
scrubbing out dried gunk. I then store the bottles in a cardboard
beer carton (case box) until needed. Storing them covered keeps
dust and such from accumulating in the bottles. On bottling day
(sometimes the day before) I rinse the bottles with a bottle
washer, soak them in a 12-15 ppm iodophor solution for a
half-hour or so, then invert them on a bottle-drying rack to
drain. I don't worry about letting the bottles dry completely
before bottling.
The only time I had infected bottles was when I bought new swing
top bottles and did not clean them before sanitizing them.
As far as simplifying the bottling process, I can recommend three
things: (1) a spring-loaded bottling wand; (2) a bench capper;
and (3) a friend who will help in exchange for homebrew.
Kevin White
Malted Duck Brewery
Columbia, MD
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:11:29 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast
A friend who runs a homebrew shop told me that his supplier, Carlson, will
stop providing Wyeast liquid yeast, and carry only White Labs. He noted
that stocking the White Labs tubes requires a lot more space in his
refrigerator. He also said that Wyeast has been very responsive to orders
he has placed directly with them.
Dave
Bel Air, MD
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:25:23 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill@brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Brewing as a profession
Steve,
The brewery I was referring to that started on a shoestring budget
of $3 million and "Never had enough money from day 1" was Independence
Brewing. They were a brewery here in Phila, not a brewpub. I WISH
they'd had a brewpub I could have gone to.
This $3 million line is a direct quote from Bill Moore, who
started Independence and he was published in multiple brewing
publications.
BTW - Jim Kock is one of the rare the exceptions in brewing,
and by far not the rule. He came from a rich family who had alot
of money, and connections. He wasn't the average Joe starting a
brewery with nothing.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:56:58 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew@compuserve.com>
Subject: re: yeast wars
Personal preferences will surely play heavily in the yeast discussions.
As a brewer I look at several available packs and think, "which makes
me feel more confident?"; a package with approximately 50 billion cells,
yielding a pitching rate of 2.6 mill cells/ml in 5 gallons, sounds skimpy
to me...and how viable is the culture? how was it treated during
transportation
and storage? how can I tell by looking at this brown goo in the bottom of
this tube? I can't even see through_this_tube. Now if I smack this other
pack
and it puffs up I know something is growing and thriving, I think this
makes
me feel a little more confident that I am at least adding something that is
active to my wort. For my money a XL smack pack adds a little bit of
assurance
to the whole process. As a slightly advanced brewer I know to make a
starter
with any packaged yeast; but as a retailer I must send something out the
door
that has the best chances of satisfying the customer when he follows label
instructions. So from a retailer's viewpoint I feel more confident sending
someone home with a XL smack-pack that will (hopefully) be pitched at high
kraeusen after activated; compared to a dormant culture of unknown
viablilty
from a pitchable tube from any manufacturer. You gotta eliminate some of
the
doubt when a customers first try at liquid yeasts can make or break future
sales.
And who wants to make the customer change recipes after so many years and
now try this yeast or that? when so far they have been happy with "WY
xxxx", I have
better things to do than learn another 50 yeast strains and their
appropriate
styles. I'm not afraid of trying something new, but obviously my customers
are,
because I have a handful of WL tubes rotting away in the fridge at this
point.
Not that I haven't tried selling them, but the usual response is, "Nah, I
know how
the Wyeast works for me."
Some people like sticking to the tried and true, others like experimenting.
T'aint no big deal, but I carry a product that I and my customers know and
trust.
One little thing that makes a big difference is adding nutrients to the
starter.
Wyeast has a nutrient that I've been having people try and has been well
received
at this point; f'rinstance a Belgian trippel fermented from 1093 to 1020 in
4 days.
This seems to indicate some nice yeast vitality. Of course I have to trust
his
observations, but he keeps asking for more free samples of the nutrient so
something is working right. I used to blend my own nutrient, but with this
one
ready-to-go, it isn't worth my time.
NAYMMV
NPL in PGH
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:26:11 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill@brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: brewing as a career
Unless you have the money and the connections
to start your own brewery, I don't think its
worthwhile to go into professional brewing.
That's pretty much all I was saying.
I also didn't mention a few other 'little'
negative things about professional brewing,
like how much liability insurance for a
brewery or brewpub costs, how organizations
like MADD are working to bring down the alcohol
industry, and how the current political climate
could turn against it any minute, too.
Liability insurance is certainly one of, if not
the single biggest expense for a brewery, and
its more if you have a brewpub. Do you think
any company wants to insure you to have people
consume alcohol at your business, then get in
their cars and drive home? If somebody drinks
at your place, then drives home and gets in a
DUI accident, they're going to almost certainly
come after you with a lawsuit, whether it was
your fault or not. And juries nowadays are
way too generous with awarding other people's
money. So insurance for a brewery or brewpub
costs a ton. Probably more than any other single
expense you will have. I own a homebrew shop and
had to disband my homebrew club over concern about
insurance, DUI and lawsuits. I would not have
been covered, so I could not have meetings in my
store and let people drink here and drive home.
Groups like MADD don't think you have any right to
brew and serve beer, and they're not afraid to tell
you that. And more and more politicians are agreeing.
The legal limit for DUI was recently lowered to .08
here, and MADD wants to make it .06, which I think
is ridiculous.
Have you taken notice of what the gov't has done to
tobacco? They started with banning smoking in the
workplace, put out alot of half truths about second
hand smoke, then they raised 'sin' taxes on tobacco
every time they needed a dollar to pay for some new
program.
A pack of cigarettes is now over $5 here. They say
"great, kids won't have the money to smoke", which is
also BS, because kids have $5 a pack to buy Pokemon
cards, don't they?
They opened the entire tobacco industry to lawsuits
from every state, and from people who died as a result
of smoking. Now 13 states have laws that totally
forbid smoking in any public place, EVEN OUTDOORS!
A local bar here was on the news because they're
fighting it and are letting people smoke. They were
just fined $100,000.
One can certainly see the parallels between the
assault on tobacco and what could be done to alcohol.
Tax increases, lawsuits to reimburse states for the
expenses of cleaning up DUI, lawsuits from people
or their families who were killed or injured in DUI,
new laws telling when you can drink and where, etc.
PA is already very draconian in their liquor laws,
I can't imagine it getting any worse.
I'm not a smoker, but I don't deny someone else the
option, if that's their choice. And I see where
this is going with regards to rights and setting
precedents.
This is the current political climate. More and more,
your rights are being eroded. And alot of breweries
today are offering the government a free shot at the
brewing and alcohol industries, because they're
continuing to produce "alcopops" - these super sweet,
alcoholic beverages. It started with Zima, and now
we have hard cider, hard lemonade, hard cola, and I
kid you not - hard root beer.
Who do you think is the target market here? Sure,
this mess is targeting underage drinkers. And it's
only a matter of time until one of these lawmakers
takes it on as a personal crusade to crush the
alcohol industry the same way they crushed the
tobacco industry, with taxes, lawsuits, and all
under the guise of 'Protecting the children', as
we've seen and heard way too often now.
And the brewing industry will just gladly hand them
the means to do it, by catering to underage drinkers!
There have already been several news stories along
these lines.
Am I the only one who sees this? We might have
prohibition back in a couple years if this keeps up.
Big as they are, RJ Reynolds didn't have the means,
the money, the backing, or the power to fight the
government. Does AB, Miller, and Coors? I honestly
don't know. What these politicians today are thinking
is anyone's guess.
So yeah, I do have a negative view of professional
brewing, especially when you're talking about being
a minimum wage employee doing all the grunt work for
someone like Jim Koch, shoveling out mash tuns and
working at 3 am, so they can get rich and famous.
Why would anyone want to do that?
And why would you want to take all the risk and expense
of starting your own so you can either get crushed by AB
or squashed by the gov't?
It doesn't make sense.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:42:00 -0500
From: Bill Wible <bill@brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast.
Wyeast makes pitchable tubes now, just like White Labs.
They've had them out for over a year now, its nothing new.
They're gold tubes and they're referred to as "shampoo tubes"
because that's what they look like.
I agree that pitchable yeast is easier and more convenient
to use. I have old smack packs in my fridge here at the
store that are over a year old to prove it, because nobody
buys them anymore.
Wyeast has lost alot of market share because the pitchable yeast
is so convenient, and everybody seems to know that White Labs
has it, but for some reason, they don't seem to know that Wyeast
also has it. Are other shops not carrying them??
BTW - White Labs has superior packaging. They package their
yeast in 2 liter soda bottle blanks. If you look at the tube,
you can see it's a blank that they would put on a machine, heat,
expand, and form a 2 liter soda bottle out of. These things are
super strong and virtually indestructible. Wyeast has had numerous
packaging problems.
And yes, I agree there may only be one yeast supplier soon. In fact,
I believe I posted that here a few months ago. I sincerely hope it
doesn't happen, because I like having choices. But the way its going...
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:55:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Luke Maltstalker vs. Darth Fermentor
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
When I useta brew, I used 'em both. When I brew agin, I'll use
'em both agin. Had great success with both. I'm partial to the
Wyeast, only because they are familiar, but I appreciate the
White Labs tube as I can shake it around and get a feel for how
hard-packed the flocculated yeast will be (heps ya plan yer
rackin' technique, it do...) As a plus to the White Labs, I
don't have to wait until the tube swells up in order to pitch a
starter, neither. But the swelling of the Wyeast pack gives you
the warm fuzzy that the yeast is doin' its thang. Each has its
advantages; each has its disadvantages.
En thar y'all have muh doller-two fipty.
L8R...
- --
-
God bless America!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
- Arlo Guthrie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:33:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ayinger yeast
"JENS MAUDAL" <jens.maudal@c2i.net> writes from Drammen, Norway
>I have been using the Ayinger yeast in 3 brews now
>(from YCKC) and have observed the following.
>
>Yes its a very nice lager yeast probably suitable for most
>of the different types of lagers made in Germany apart from
>a north german style pilsner.
>I think the yeast leaves a fair amount of sweetnes that either
>has to be compensated with more bittering hops or less use
>of crystal or cara type malts.
I have not had this problem. For a 22% corn/78% malt CAP, 100%
pilsner malt Pils, and 80-100% Munich malt Dunkel, I get good
attenuation (75-80% with the CAP and Pils, and 70-75% with the
Dunkel). I do a two rest mash with 30-45 minutes at 145F/63C and
158F/70C each, followed by mashout. This seems to give good
efficiency and attenuation. I do not use crystal or cara malts in
any of my lagers except carapils in low gravity ones (less than 10P
or 1.040).
It is important, as with all lager yeasts, to use a big starter or
repitch lots of healthy yeast.
>I have also experianced a diacetyl problem with this yeast,
>especialy in my last Schwarts bier, may be my diacetyl rest
>was too short or something, but the beer even considering the
>strong taste from dark malts have a pronounced diacetyl taste.
>Is this an experiance that others have as well.
I am really sensitive to diacetyl and don't like it. Again, I have
not had this problem. I don't find a diacetyl rest necessary with
Ayinger. I pitch and ferment at 50F/10C, then slowly drop to 32F/0C
as fermentation slows.
I first tasted Ayinger when Dan McC first got it from Germany. A
local brewpub ws unhappy with the lager yeast they were using and
fermented five one gallon (4L) batches of their standard wort with
different yeasts at their standard 50F/10C temperature and lagered it
them at the same temperature. The Ayinger was the clear favorite of
the five of us on the taste panel, and was my favorite by a wide
margin. Some of the others had quite a bit of diacetyl.
I wonder if since this problem is worse with your most recent beer if
your culture has developed respiratory deficient petit mutants. This
could explain the problem. I think these can be differentiated under
the microscope (but I'm not experienced and don't know for sure).
Perhaps you could reculture from some normal cells.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:46:17 -0800 (PST)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4@yahoo.com>
Subject: Sanitizing bottles with Iodophor
Fran from Vermont asked about sanitizing bottles in Iodophor:
>So, the question is, can I get away with, let's say, a rinse with a
>bottle washer attached to the
>faucet, then a dip in a bucket of iodophor solution, drip dry, then
>bottle?
Yes it works. Why wouldn't it - its the same sanitizer used on fermenters,
kegs, other stuff.
Is it less work than using the dishwasher? You have to try it to
find out. I use that method because I don'dishwasherhe dishwaher.
I get all the bottles that will fit into a bucket of iodophor and wait
a few minutes. I have them submerged in the iodophor. Two minutes is
what I always hear recommended. Dump the iodophor back into the bucket
and put bottles on bottle tree. I already did the same thing to the
bottle tree. What's a bottle tree?
There's a photo on this page: http://www.northernbrewer.com/bottling.html
To get ready for 5 gal, it takes three rounds of bottles through the bucket.
You asked about ideas - Someone I know fills bottles with iodophor
from a brew kettle thrclaimshe valve. He claims it is faster because
he isn't spending time holding the bottles down in the bucket of
iodophor to get the air out.
=====
Leo Vitt
Rochester MN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:18:14 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote@mindspring.com>
Subject: Fridge Guy Type Question
Brewers,
I have been offered a used walk-in cooler, and the price is right--FREE!
It's probably on the order of 8 to 10 feet square. It's kind of hard to
tell in its dismantled state. It is of modular construction with 4" thick,
or so, panels of inner and outer sheet metal and polyurethane foam core.
It lacks any refrigeration goodies (compressor, motor 'n stuff).
Basically, it's an insulated box.
So my question: What are the pros and cons of going with a small window
unit air conditioner versus a commercial refrigeration unit to provide
refrigeration for this? I would especially like information on startup and
operational costs. Having read the fridge posts on HBD for some time, I
know moisture comes up quite often on the list of concerns. Is one better
than the other in this respect or is there no difference?
Any information (public or private) would be most welcome.
TIA,
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:35:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: yeast wars - WhiteLabs v Wyeast. was re: Ayinger yeast ...
Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu> wrote from Chapel Hill, NC
>this would be an incredibly popular yeast (it's been a HB cult
>favorite for years) if offered in the regular WL rotation, but think the
>name is just fine. Ayinger is a trademark of the company that cultured
>the yeast, but they are known quite well for the plastic goat on their
>bottles of bock.
I don't actually know if the yeast is from THE Ayinger brewery or
simply one of the several (I think five?) in the town. Do you know,
Marc? I suppose I could ask Dan. I think it was originally simply
labeled as being from Aying.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:54:24 -0500
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51@ICCNET.COM>
Subject: Experiments with corn, the final chapter...
Well listers, as you may remember I was trying an experiment with some
freshly ground corn meal from the parish (county) fair. I mashed as per
Jeff R's instructions and had an unusually long lag time when pitched.
Well, I had to do something that I have never had to do in the 20 some years
I have been homebrewing; I had to dump a batch. I though that I might have
an infection when I racked from the primary to the secondary, a slight
vinegar smell but I tried to convince myself that it was just my
imagination. It was not my imagination, I made 6 gallons of hoppy, spicy,
malt vinegar. So I dumped the whole batch down the drain, filled the carboy
with a strong conc. of bleach and I am coming to the collective seeking a
little comfort. I will try again later. I have heard that you should learn
something from every mistake so here is what I have learned:
1) If using a "smack-pack" and it's a little "long in the tooth", give it
several days to fire up.
2) Keep at least one package of dry yeast for emergencies.
3) It REALLY helps if you live somewhere with a local homebrew shop. Since
I don't anymore, I really miss it.
Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery (or Vinegary)
Bogalusa, LA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:32:06 -0600
From: "Berggren, Stefan" <stefan_berggren@trekbike.com>
Subject: Geuze
Greetings,
Has anyone ever tried to or successfully finish a Belgian Geuze? I tried my
first taste
of a Geuze last night and am forever changed. I realize that the complexity
of trying to
replicate a true gueze from Belgium would be futile, but perhaps someone has
an idea
as how to get close. I am intrigued by Wyeasts 3278 Lambic blend, has
anyone out there
used this strain/mix? I would love to see this mysterious topic bring forth
a discussion
among brewers on the digest.
Cheers,
Stefan
There is more to life than increasing its speed." --Gandhi
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #4116, 12/11/02
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