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HOMEBREW Digest #3996
HOMEBREW Digest #3996 Tue 23 July 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:
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Contents:
water filters ("Michael O'Donnell")
Re: Oh Phil ... see what you started ... (fwd) (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
Re: High FG in Strong Lager (Marc Sedam)
re: cask conditioning in a 3 gallon keg ("Mark Tumarkin")
beer and airplanes (Marc Sedam)
RE: Toast My malt ("David Houseman")
Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again) ("Chad Gould")
The Coriolis Party ("Phil Yates")
Sean vs. AHA - Bury the Hatchet ("DRTEELE")
HERMS / pump (Road Frog)
Zymurgy planning . . . (Ray Daniels)
Goose Island IPA clone (Beer Drinker)
Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question ("Hache, Marc")
Plastic, glass, polycarbonate ("Brian Schar")
Fw: plastic primarys, septic tank, propane. (Tod H Lewark)
high temperature mash (HOMEBRE973)
re: Toast My malt? (Rama Roberts)
RE: Brewing without lifting ("Gary Smith")
What's in your Fridge? ("Jim")
mashing and attenuation (Kevin Crouch)
Re: The modelling of speciality malts ("A. J. delange")
Level of dissolved CO2 after lagering. (Petr Otahal)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:30:52 -0700
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo@stanford.edu>
Subject: water filters
>To add my experience: I also have an undersink spun fiber filter (before
>my carbon filter and RO membrane)... My instructions say to replace it
>every 6 months... on one occasion, the water started tasting nasty after 3
>so I replaced it then...
Every time I open the thing up, even if the water still tastes fine, the
filter is orange and smells nasty. I assume that my pipes are very
rusty. Makes me really glad that I have the filter.
I'd go with their schedule, at least the first couple of times, then, like
Rama, make your own decision about how often you need it.
cheers,
mike
>Dana writes:
>Should I really replace it after 6 months even though I havn't run anything
>close to 600 gals through it? Does the filter somehow degrade with time
>requiring the replacement or is the company just trying to get my money?
>
>I think the reason they say to replace it is to avoid nasties from growing in
>the filter after time and making you sick.
>I've got an undersink 0.5 micron carbon filter that says the same thing, and
>waited about 10 months before replacing it. The water tasted fine, stability
>tests on wort made with this water (and one 50/50 mixed wort/filtered water)
>both came out okay, but better safe than sorry. After removing the filter, I
>cut it open to see if there were any visible build-ups or slime, and it
>looked
>good as new. Since these filters cost over $30, I'll probably replace them
>annually from now on.
>
>- --rama roberts
>san francisco bay area
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:50:03 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Oh Phil ... see what you started ... (fwd)
In response to Pat's reasoning;
Ah! I see! What you are saying is that being an Australian is
similar to being passed out on the floor! That certainly
explains many things...
Sorry - couldn't resist ;^)
Nah, you pretend to pass out to stop Graham talking about himself
usually!
Scotty
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:55:49 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: Re: High FG in Strong Lager
Using Beano will work. At the very least it will knock off some simple sugars
and get down to some smaller limit dextrin. It will also help if there are a
lot of complex sugars (>3 glucoses) in solution. I've done it and know that
others have as well...it works. Not really as good as adding alpha amylase
(also known as "pilsner enzyme"), but you're right...in either case you can't
stop it, although hitting the proper attenuation at room temps then crash
cooling and storing at or below 40F should be OK.
Cheers!
Marc
>
> ----------
> Marc Sedam ... who has posted tons of great stuff recents adds a
> note I can't agree with.
>
> >It would be even easier to grind up a Beano tablet
> >and add it to the fermenter.
>
> Beano is a galctosidase enzyme and I suspect will have little effect on wort
> dextrins.
> Not so Marc ? Alpha-amylase would work, but there is no control - once
> added it
> may overattenuate. Still it's the only repair likely to work.
>
> -S
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:17:27 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: cask conditioning in a 3 gallon keg
Susan asks about splitting a batch between bottles & a 3 gal corny:
>I would like some advice and am sure I can get it here. What I am
planning on doing is making a 5 gallon batch of Scotish light and then
bottling 2 gallons and putting the other 3 gallons in a 3 gallon mini-
keg and cask conditioning it from there.
>What I really need to know is how much corn sugar or dry malt should be
added to the keg to do this and I am thinking that I probably want to
put less than 3 gallons in the mini-keg but how much less. I am also
planning on brewing this tomorrow and wish to serve it in about 2
weeks. Does this give me time to get it properly carbonated? Or with
these time constraints would it be better to just force carbonate
lightly and then serve thru the beer engine
3 Gal kegs are wonderful things, wish I had more of them. They make it easy to
bottle some of your batch for competition, giving away, etc and keg the rest.
I love the small size too, they're so portable - especially with a small CO2
cylinder.
But to your question: Why not rack to your bottling bucket, prime as you would
normally, then bottle what you want and transfer the rest to the keg to
condition there? Two weeks should be enough time to finish, depending on
temperature. You can always check it out a few days before you want to serve
it. If it's not done; then finish with a little force carbonation. The yeast
should have eaten most of the sugar so that the finished beer shouldn't end up
significantly sweeter for not being quite done.
On the flip side, if you were'nt wanting to serve it as a real ale, you could
just go ahead and force carb and be done. A real, cask conditioned ale is
obviously different, but otherwise I don't think there is any difference
between the taste of force carbed vs. bottle carbed beer (given equal volumes
of CO2). Especially since you are talking about consuming the beer right away.
If you're talking about beer that will be stored for longer periods of time, I
do think there is a significant difference between bottle conditioned beer
stored on live yeast, and beer that is force carbed then counter-pressure
filled and stored. Ya gotta love those little yeasties, they not only fement
the beer for us but protect it as well.
Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:36:14 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: beer and airplanes
Mark T. is inviting everyone in the US to his homebrew club
meeting this Thursday, but is sure to mention to BRING
HOMEBREW. Having been treated like a king at the Sunshine
Challenge last year, I couldn't recommend taking Mark up on
the invite more. But, to the point...
Those who were at the AHA Annual Meeting (there I go
again...getting something valuable out of my
"membership"...damn it!) heard this before, but I had a hell
of a time bringing homebrew on a plane. The gist of what's
below is that if you want to travel with homebrew, make sure
it's in a labeled bottle. Just bottle the damn stuff in a
microbrew bottle and you'll be OK. Oh, and you can't bring
alcohol >70 proof on a plane either. So here goes...
I pack a six-pack of delicious Alechemist beers: two
Sedamichlauses (my Samichlaus clone), a sour cherry Berliner
weiss, a plain Berliner weiss, and two bottles of
black-cranberry mead. Wrap each bottle in a clean article of
clothing, put in my carry-on, and head to the airport.
As I'm in line I realize that my keychain Leatherman (kinda
like a Swiss army knife) is still attached to my keys.
Damn! So I take it off and randomly stuff it in my bag,
hoping it makes it through. Place the carry on through the
X-ray and wait...and wait...and wait. Sure enough, they want
to check my bag and I get brought over to the "special"
section of security.
I tell the guards that I'm heading out to a homebrewing
competition and have brought some beers. No one seems to
care. They take out the beer and see that it doesn't have a
label on the bottle. (Note to self: "D'oh!!") Tell me I
can't bring it through. I tell them I checked the website
and that beer and wine are permitted on flights. "Not if
they're unlabeled," I'm told, "We don't know what's in
there." Resisting the urge to tell them that if I'm capable
of putting beer in an unlabeled bottle I'm probably capable
of putting it in a labeled bottle, I ask them what to do.
I'm given the option of (a) mailing it to my destination
(this is 45 minutes before the flight leaves), (b) throwing
it out, (c) having them throw it out, and (d) throwing it
out. I pick "e" (throwing it out), and ask one of the
security people if I can drink one there. Someone tells me
yes, so I start drinking the sour cherry Berliner. It's
good, BTW. The entire security force starts telling me that
I can't drink the beer there (I'm standing at the foot of
the entire security line). By now, I'm holding up most of
the line. I start chugging the beer just as the State Police
come up to ask exactly what I'm doing while at the same time
telling me to stop it. By now I've drank one beer.
I give up and mumble stuff about not giving me a good
option. Decide that I need to go to the bathroom. Spy the
security guard heading to the bathroom with my beer. I wait
30 seconds and head in there, showing surprise and dismay
that he's dumping the beer. I ask if I can have another
one. He says sure. I choose the mead--12oz bottle of 13%abv
mead. Head to the "reading area" of the washroom and hammer
down that mead in...ohhhhh...about 30 seconds. I thank him
for his time and hit the plane.
I'm asleep in 45 minutes for most of the rest of the flight.
Of course on the return flight I take the wonderful
cornucopia of alcohol products that a friend I met there
brought for me in trade (meads and cysers and braggots, oh
my!) through security at DFW in 5 seconds. No pauses, no
questions, nothing.
The kicker? My Leatherman made it through security without
any questions, comments, or pauses.
Cheers!
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:40:57 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Toast My malt
Jodie,
Yes, you can make your own toasted malt. Spread some pilsner malt (or pale
ale) out as a thin layer on a cookie sheet and put this in a medium oven
(300-350oF) for anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes. Watch it carefully,
stirring occasionally. You'll smell and taste the malt to determine when
it's done. When it is, take it out and let it cool on the pan. It is best
to let this then sit for some time (couple weeks to a month) prior to using
it. The "rest" seems to make it less harsh when you use it. Toasted malt
works well in a number of beers from American Pale Ale to Vienna.
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:45:12 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Glass vs. Plastic (again)
> Boy, look at these 'canned' answers. Somebody really has it
> drilled into these people that 'plastic is bad' and 'glass is
> good'. Who started this, the glass manufacturers?
Nah. You can ferment in plastic if you want. However, as you said, you will
probably have to replace a plastic vessel every year or so. Glass lasts much
longer. Glass can get scratched, yes, but its much more difficult to do so -
a scrub brush certainly won't scratch glass, where a scrub brush could
scratch plastic in a way that's difficult to clean up afterwards. My
personal opinion is that glass is more difficult to clean, physically... but
plastic is more difficult to sanitize. Personally, I've had experience with
the later, and it wasn't pretty smelling -- one of the souring bacterias.
The worst time for wort spoiling is between the time the beer finishes
boiling and the time the beer finishes fermenting. Sanitation is critical of
course throughout the process, but that vessel really needs to be sanitary.
As long as you are willing to be cautious with plastic, you are fine...
personally, after starting out on plastic, I'm with the glass folks now. :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:14:44 +1000
From: "Phil Yates" <phil.yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: The Coriolis Party
Steve comments:
>but that's just a frame of reference thing - the Aussies are
>looking at the bottom of their beers from where I stand.
First of all, let me say I wish I had of attended Steve's office party last
year. Sounds like everyone had a hell of a good time. Not that I think most
of them would remember much about it.
And Pat Babcock offers:
>Ah! I see! What you are saying is that being an Australian is
>similar to being passed out on the floor! That certainly
>explains many things...
To put this all in perspective, when I looked into the "top" of my beer I
saw
Steve at the bottom of my beer looking into the top of his beer.
And at the end of Steve's wild office part, I looked up to see a lot of
people (they looked like Americans to me Pat) lying on my ceiling!!
At this point I went to bed and put the whole frightening experience down to
badly oxidised beer!
Cheers
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:28:32 -0400
From: "DRTEELE" <drteele@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Sean vs. AHA - Bury the Hatchet
To all,
As one of the early respondents to Sean's comments here on the HBD regarding
the AHA, I feel the need to re-post here to request that everyone take a
step back to re-evaluate the situation. Sean and I have been discussing
privately our differences of opinion. And while we still do not agree on
some issues, I can tell you this - Sean did have the interests of the AHA in
mind when he posted here on the HBD. His intent was to foster a discussion
on the AHA and it's current member programs. And while some (or many) of us
may disagree with his methods, his motives were respectable. If we (Sean and
I) can progress from calling each other 'coward' and 'childish' to having a
mutual respect for each other, then I think the rest of the HBD posters
could stand to re-evaluate their animosity towards him. Now, granted, you do
not have the benefit of having read our private posts, and you don't know me
from Adam's house cat, But I think we all agree that this thread is getting
us nowhere. So let's let bygones be bygones and get back to something we ALL
agree on ......BREWING!
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run@yahoo.com>
Subject: HERMS / pump
Is anybody using their immersion chiller as their
HERMS coil?
Is a 1/15 hp pump to much? I have a variable
transformer to back it down a bit. How hard is to
step mash with direct heat on the mash tun and the
pump?
"And I don't want to die, I just want to ride on my
motor-cy-cle." -Arlo Guthrie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:01:18 -0500
From: Ray Daniels <raydan@ameritech.net>
Subject: Zymurgy planning . . .
OK, I'm looking for contributions in the following areas. If you want to
write about one of these or would like to recommend someone you know to
write about them, drop me a line.
No sparge brewing / batch sparging. (Define the terms, tell how it is
done, pros and cons.)
Prague/Pilsen beers and brewing - Visited this area? Studied the
beers? Have some insights into Pilsener Urquell, Budvar, etc. And don't
forget U Fleku and the great black lagers made here. I'm thinking of doing
a whole issue on this area's beers, so I need a bunch of stuff. Let me
hear from you.
That should do for now.
Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
ray@aob.org
773-665-1300
Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
For more information, see www.beertown.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beer Drinker <srm775@yahoo.com>
Subject: Goose Island IPA clone
Not sure if anyone saw this post,
but I was wondering if anyone had
a recipe for Goose Island IPA. I
tried it once while in the chicago-land
area and would like to duplicate it.
Thanks and go Red Sox
Red Sox fan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:00:04 -0400
From: "Hache, Marc" <HacheM@PIOS.COM>
Subject: Acetobacter - Thanks for the help - one more question
Thanks to all who replied. I appreciate the suggestions.
Since I have a couple of glass fermenters I will try that for my next batch
and see what happens. Since my plastic fermenter is close to 6 years old, it
may be time to replace (even Bill Wible says once a year or so (said with
appreciation and tongue firmly planted in cheek)).
Not convinced that's the problem but at this point my already receding
hairline has almost disappeared! I guess what's frustrating is that up until
the batches started going bad, my process and equipment stayed the same.
One other possible source is the turkey baster I use for a liquid thief. The
owner of my local brew shop traced his infection to that. Apparently it is
very difficult to sanitize rubber effectively. Will be relegating the baster
to it's intended purpose and getting a proper wine thief.
Bill's comment about it being July and hot made me wonder whether
fermentation was over so quick that one week in the primary might be too
long. Will watch closer.
Kent Fletcher mentioned test strips for the iodophor solution, Kent can I
get more detail ? I checked with my LHBS and they have never heard of them,
do you have a brand or manufacturer name ?
More detail for the record:
- The fermentation was very active, I use the larger liquid yeast packs
which, although they don't match a starter, do provide a heck of a lot of
activity quickly.
- The kegs were sterilized as well.
Thanks again,
Marc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:05:12 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <schar@cardica.com>
Subject: Plastic, glass, polycarbonate
I have been brewing for almost 10 years and fermenting exclusively in
plastic, and I haven't had any problems. I like plastic for several
reasons. The primary reason is safety. I am uncomfortable with the idea of
lugging around big glass bottles full of hot liquid, in part because I have
known two brewers who have been hurt pretty badly by broken carboys. This
is not to say that there aren't safe ways to handle carboys; rather, that my
own risk tolerance level is pretty low. Second, the plastic fermenters are
cheap, and I replace mine every year or so to minimize the chances of
infection. Ultimately, people should go with what works for them. If I had
experienced infections earlier in my brewing career, I can easily imagine I
would have ended up in glass as well.
On a related note, does anyone out there ferment in
Lexan/Nalgene/polycarbonate carboys? I have seen 5 gallon polycarbonate
carboys for sale on line from lab supply places, and I've wondered if they
might be a best-of-both-worlds combination of plastic safety and glass
scratch-resistance.
Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:08:46 -0400
From: Tod H Lewark <mrgoodbeer@juno.com>
Subject: Fw: plastic primarys, septic tank, propane.
I'm moving to a country house with a septic tank and propane heat.
Regarding the septic tank, are there any sanitizers or other chemicals I
should or should not use in brewing, winemaking, or housekeeping?
Would it be feasible to connect my outdoor burners to the big
propane tank, and if so, how?
I have a nice antique gas stove I've brewed on for about 15 years
also. Can I convert it to propane, and if so, how?
There is a slow spring (like a faucet on medium opening) I will
have tested, downhill. Any suggestions on a low-flow pump? I also have
city water.
I started brewing in 1978 with a crock for a primary, which I
covered with plastic wrap, and carboys for secondarys. About 1987 I got
two used 7 1/2 gallon plastic primarys at an auction, and have used them
ever since, adding a third new one in the early 90's. About 3 years ago
the old lids developed cracks aound the airlock hole, so I got new lids.
I clean gently, but there are some obvious rough spots. I've never had an
infection I could trace to these primarys. I store my unused fermenters
with a slosh of bleach in an inch of water, with lids and airlocks on
primarys, a double thickness of plastic wrap on the carboys. When I need
one, I rinse well and am ready to go. No staining from dark wine or beer.
It works for me.
As ye brew, so shall ye drink.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:11:49 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973@aol.com
Subject: high temperature mash
I made an oatmeal stout according to the recomendations of a
homebrewer which involved one-step mashing at 162 F and used
malted barley. I realized that the mash temp. would cut down
the fermentables substantially. I got an initial gravity of
1.058 and racked at 1.026 where the gravity remained. I did
a Clintest fermentable reading and got about 0.5% to 0.6%
remaining fermentables so I bottled the 5 gallons with only 3
oz. of sugar. It tasted great before bottling, and I will try
a bottle soon.
Andy Kligerman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:45:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rama Roberts <rama@eng.sun.com>
Subject: re: Toast My malt?
Jodie writes:
I'm about to brew a recipe that calls for toasted 2-row pale malt. Do I
toast it in the oven as I would nuts for baking?
Jodie,
I've toasted malt once while following this recipe, which came out great:
http://www.byo.com/recipe/638.html
It suggests:
"toast the malt on a cookie sheet for 30 min. at 350 F"
rama roberts
san francisco bay area
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:10:58 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist@interlync.com>
Subject: RE: Brewing without lifting
Walt asks about brewing without lifting.
Hmmm, If I could get the girlfriend to do the brewing for
me, that would be about perfect.
But.. since nothing in this world is perfect, that option is
fubar.
I have the same problem, a bad back. my seatbelt
worked but the shoulder strap was designed too low
and when the auto accident happened, I snapped
forward midway down the back and got a compression
fracture of the T12 vertebrae. Thank you Acura...
So I've just finished building my rims. It's a one tier rims,
all on one level. 3 pumps; two mag pumps and a
peristaltic. There's a couple of areas I have to improve
my procedures but about the only lifting I have to do is
the hops & adding/removing grain. It's kind of "busy" but
I designed it to fit my back.
Pumps & forethought will do you about as well as can
be done.
Gary
BTW, a friend in Michigan brews outside and has a hole
in the house's foundation where he runs a tube to the
basement for transfer to the primary.
Another friend in CT had his house built with a walk-in
fridge especially set up for homebrewing.
Off topic, a fellow Ham Radio operator I know does
contests where there he has a separate amplifier for
each band he contests on ( 8 in all ). He didn't like the
noise of all the fans so he installed one fan in the
basement and then routed separate manifolds to each
amplifier so all you hear in the room is a low whooshing
sound. All the fan noise is in the basement.
I guess the reason I put that last part in is an example
to not be afraid to try anything you think might be easier.
A little trial & error & you'll be lifting far less than you do
now. You know the drill; Necessity is the mother...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:19:49 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim" <bermingham@antennaproducts.com>
Subject: What's in your Fridge?
I see Bill must have paid attention to Mr. Robinson when he gave Dustin
Hoffman the one word advice... "PLASTICS" Bill did you run out and buy
shares of DuPont? Let me give all of you "one word" users be it glass or
plastic "two words" of advice "Stainless Steel"
Coriolis- I got so dizzy reading Steve's office party description of going
around and around that I barfed all over those poor soles from down under
that were passed out on the floor. Of course they are used to us Northern
Hemerisperic (?) types barfing on them from time to time.
Last Year, to celebrate July as American Beer Month, Pat Babcock ask "What
American Beer do you have In your Fridge"? This year in addition to what
American Beer do you have you need a good "Beer Snack" to munch on while
enjoying your favorite American Beer. What is your favorite beer snack and
what is the most unusual "snack" you have seen served at a bar?
In the last issue of Zymurgy, Jeff Renner had an article on making pretzels.
I also recall a few comments about it in the HBD. Pretzels I think can be
considered a "Beer Snack." Along with Jeff's pretzels there are other
popular items served as snacks at bars. Beer Nuts, Popcorn, Party Mix,
Cheese Straws, "Slim Jim's", Beef Jerky, Potato Chips, Jalapeno Cheese
Poppers and Buffalo Wings. In Lisbon, Portugal all the bars have these
containers on the bar with a hominy type corn that you eat and spit out the
tough skin part on the floor.
Bubba of the "Millsap Small Engine and Chainsaw Repair" serves pickled pig
knuckles in the back room. Martha Sue, Bubba's common law wife, puts them up
herself in gallon jars. She puts a gallon on each end of the work bench they
use as a bar on Friday and Saturday nights. If you want one you just tell
Martha Sue and she lets you pick out the one you want, just like they do the
lobsters in the nicer places. Martha Sue then just reaches in and pulls the
one you selected out and puts it on one of those red shop towels if front of
you. The shop towel comes in handy to wipe your chin of all the grease
running down when you're chewing on one of the larger gristles. Pickled Pig
feet and Pickled Eggs are popular in this part of the country.
American Beer: New Belgium's Fat Tire and Triple
Snacks: Anything but Pig Knuckles
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:52:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching@yahoo.com>
Subject: mashing and attenuation
Paul Shick wrote...
> I've used the Fix regime a lot, although less
often in recent
>years, because I ended up with beers that were too
dry and attenuated,
>especially with the 45minutes at 60C, 15 at 70C Steve
used. As Jeff
>suggests, I've moved to a higher rest for the
beta-amylase emphasis
>(I've used 148F or so,) but to avoid overattenuation
rather than
>underattenuation. When I mentioned this the head
brewer at a good
>local brewpub, he wasn't surprised at all by my
overattenuation
>problems.
>He points out that malts have become so modified in
recent years (even
>more so in the last few,) that we often get complete
conversion in
>as little as 15 minutes, even a low temperatures such
as 140F. We
>argued (and sampled beer) over this until pretty
late, but he finally
>convinced me.
I've heard this too, and from a great many commercial
brewers. Ahem these malts are made for and marketed
to these folks, and some of the concepts don't
translate perfectly to
the world of homebrewing, nor should they. The notion
that "full starch conversion can be achieved in 15
minutes" appears to be saturated in a good deal of
commercial brewing rhetoric based on the principles of
chemistry that we've discussed in recent posts, and
the experiences of this community. This cannot pertain
to the total % of avaialable starch in the mash. In
addition, malt modification really shouldn't be a
major factor here. The relationship between malt
modification and mashing is most profound when
assessing the need for an acid and/or protein rest or
the implementation of a decoction mash.
>This has prompted me to raise my dough in temperature
even higher,
>in many cases, to about 152F for 20 or so minutes,
before raising to
>158F, except for beer where I'm looking for a dry
finish (like a CAP.)
>So I guess I'm siding with Marc Sedam in this
exchange: the likely
>culprit for underattenuation is
underpitching/underaeration.
I suspect we need to consider a few more variables.
In addition to the standard saccharification rests in
a step or infusion mash, there is also the episode of
mash-out and sparging. I am under the impression that
the main purpose of the mash-out is to de-activate any
viable enzymes so that the integrity of the malt
constitution will be maintained after the sparge,
which in most instances is going to be longer than the
combined rest times. Conversion appears to go on in
force during the sparge if mash-out is not achieved.
Consequently, the malt will be mashing at high
temperatures 160-165 which will leave your alphas as
the only enzyme in action and will produce a highly
dextrinous wort. (To me, this appears to be yet
another potential reason for the first/second runnings
scheme, but this is pure, unadulterated speculation).
Do we know if the beer is truly underattenuated? Or
is it simply a dextrinous beer? From where I'm coming
from the difference is notable. An underattenuated
beer being one that has fermentables left over that
didn't get metabolised due to a)temperature
incompatibility b)nutrient deficits c)low pitching
rates d)highly flocculent yeasts etc.
If the fermentation potholes have been filled-in
properly, then that points us back to the mash.
Possibly the solution is as simple as many folks have
suggested time and time again...
Yeast nutrient/aeration/rousing etc. But maybe, some
late-mash calisthenics need to be
considered.
Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:26:19 +0000
From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The modelling of speciality malts
Brewers (and Jeff),
The bloke at Birmingham was looking for a quick way to measure the color
of malt subject to temperature and moisture and settled on treating the
processed malt as a document i.e. he put it on a document scanner and
then used image processing software to measure the L, a, b (this is a
set of color coordinates) values. L is the brightness and this he uses
to describe the color of the malt. One could poke lots of holes in this
technique. For example, beer (and malt color which is determined by
measuring the color of a Congress mash in the same way that beer color
is measured) is based on a single point spectral absorbtion measurement
at the blue end of the spectrum whereas the L value is a broadband
measurement weighted most heavily in the green part of the spectrum.
Nevertheless, because of the similarities in the shapes of absorbtion
spectra of malt derived solutions, the L measurement (or rather the log
of L) should correlate quite well with EBC color.
The investigator could improve the accuracy of his results by the use of
a reflection spectrophotometer used in many industries to measure the
colors of opaque samples. These take actual spectral measurements and
calculate color in any of several coordinate systems. More to the point,
they are capable of the single measurement (420 nm ?) which defines EBC
color. While not inexpensive these instruments are well within the
budget of a reasonably well equipped laboratory.
A.J.
Jeff Renner wrote:
> Brewers
>
> I don't understand much of this, but there is an article at
> http://www.biotech.bham.ac.uk/BTNews44/Speciality%20Malts.htm
> On roasted and crystal malts and modeling their color by sue of a
> scanner and formulae that I couldn't possibly understand. Someone may
> find it interesting and enlightening. I've cc'd AJ, who gave a talk
> on color analysis of beer at MCAB4 in Cleveland. maybe he can make
> something of it.
>
> Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:16:44 +1000
From: Petr Otahal <potahal@utas.edu.au>
Subject: Level of dissolved CO2 after lagering.
Hi All,
I'm a long time reader but very infrequent poster to the HBD, but recently
I've been having a discussion with a fellow home brewer about carbonation
and the levels of carbon dioxide dissolved in beer.
If we can use the tables supplied by Dave Draper and Mark Hibberd (see the
carbonation section in the The Brewery Library), what I would like to know
is how much fermentation goes on during lagering.
Let me illustrate my question(s) by way of example.
Take two identical beers:
Beer A and Beer B.
Both Beer A and B undergo the same fermentation for two weeks at 10C (50F).
After the two week period the beers are racked to a secondary fermenter
(with minimal head space) which releases excess CO2 from the beers and they
come to an equilibrium with 1.2 Vol. of CO2 dissolved in the beers (as per
above articles).
Beer A is then slowly lowered to a lagering temperature of 2C (36F), but
beer B is slowly raised to 20C (68F) for a diacetyl rest (two to three
days) and then slowly lowered back down to lager at 2C.
They both undergo lagering for a period of 8 weeks and are then bottled.
The questions are based on the need to calculate priming sugar:
At the end of the lagering period how many volumes of CO2 does each beer
hold? and what variables does this depend on?
Will they both reach the saturation level of dissolved CO2 at 2C (1.6volumes)?
Does the fermentation of Maltotriose occur fast enough to be finished in
the initial primary ferment of two weeks? or does it occur during the
lagering (or diacetyl rest)?
Thanks in advance for any discussion on this topic.
Cheers
Petr Otahal
Brewing in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia (hows that Jeff?)
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3996, 07/23/02
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