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HOMEBREW Digest #3986
HOMEBREW Digest #3986 Thu 11 July 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
Upcoming trips and local watering holes. ("Milone, Gilbert")
Re: Tampa brewpubs ("Chad Gould")
Fermenting under pressure - The New Brewer (Ray Daniels)
Beer Builds Strong Bones (Rick)
RE: Tampa Fl Brews ("Craig Williams")
Building a Copper Chiller ("Drew Avis")
Re: Visiting Belgium (Joe Preiser)
Re: Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter clone recipe? (Denny Conn)
Dortmund Water, Decoction, & Mash pH? ("Michael J. Roman")
RE: Lou Bonham on the AHA (Paul Shick)
Re: Making a weight percent solution - Plato ("Todd M. Snyder")
Astringency problems with rice hulls? (Paul Shick)
retrograded starch (Marc Sedam)
Re: retrograded starch (Alan McKay)
Re: batch sparging and stirring grain (Kevin Crouch)
re: Tampa Fla. brews ("Mark Tumarkin")
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:59:39 -0400
From: "Milone, Gilbert" <gilbert.milone@uconn.edu>
Subject: Upcoming trips and local watering holes.
Bill Wrote---
On Sunday the 21st of July I will be traveling to Groton CT. from State
College PA on business. I will only be there for one day. (Well closer to
about 18 hours. I arrive Sunday install our software at Pfizer on Monday
and leave Monday afternoon.) This gives me about 2 meals in the area and I
am looking for suggestions. If someone from the area could point me to the
tastier local spots (brew pubs with take out preferred) I would appreciate
it.
Hi Bill,
Bill, hmmm lets see around Groton there aren't really any brewpubs.
There
are several dive bars, and places of the like. If you want to make a bit of
a drive
from groton up to Willimantic, take 95 south(yes south) to 32 north, to 395
north, back to 32
north, there is an excellent brew pub called the Willimantic Brewing
Company. It is housed in the
old post office. http://www.willibrew.com/ is David's webpage. Rumor has it
he changed the menu a week ago.
I would highly recommend his IPA although all of his beers are great. The
Mohegan Sun Casino also brew's their own beer
and has it on tap in several bars throughout the casino. Let's see there is
a night club down in New Haven which Brews
beer, although I have never tried any http://www.barnightclub.com/ . That's
about it around here.
-Gil Milone
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:27:16 -0400
From: "Chad Gould" <cgould11@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Tampa brewpubs
> Hello,
> We'll be heading down to Indian Rocks beach in the Tampa Fla. area on the
> 19th of this month. We'll be meeting up with some relatives from England.
> I'd like to show off some good American micro-brews to our English cousins
> if there are any to be had in the Tampa area. Are there any brew pubs
around
> Tampa?
Two major ones that I'm aware of: Tampa Bay Brewing Company in Ybor City
(http://www.tampabaybrewingcompany.com/ - good cuisine, continental, cask
beer) and Hoppers Brooker Creek (No webpage, location here --
http://www.beerexpedition.com/fl/b_02142.shtml -- pub cuisine, and they
*have* won some golds for their brews). There's also a local chain called
Hops (http://www.hopsonline.com/flash/open.asp), which is at several
locations around the Tampa Bay Area area -- the beer is not as unique as the
other two mentioned though.
The best microbrew not associated with a brewpub, in this area, is Dunedin
Brewery. Every Friday and Saturday evening they open up the bar portion of
the brewery... they have several varieties of tasty brew, plus a couple of
guests (the last time I was there, which was a while back unfortunately,
they had Delirium Tremens as their guest brew)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:27:38 -0500
From: Ray Daniels <raydan@ameritech.net>
Subject: Fermenting under pressure - The New Brewer
I'm following-up on Dave Houseman's mention of the pressure fermentation
article in The New Brewer. This piece, by Matthew Swihart of Full Sail
Brewing Co, ran in the March-April 2002 (Vol. 19, No. 2) issue, beginning
on page 50. If you want a copy for your files, contact Boulder via the
toll-free number below and slap down the $$ to get one. In the meantime,
here are my notes from the piece.
The study covered 12 fermentations: 6 under pressure and 6 not. The
pressure fermenters were pumped up to 15 psi after being filled with wort
and maintained at that level throughout the fermentation. Each fermenter
consisted of three kettles full of wort thus overcoming at least some
concerns about inherent variability in the brewing process. The article
makes no notes regarding possible changes in hop or malt lots during the
course of these brews.
Unfortunately pressure was not the only variable during fermentation. The
pressure fermentations were conducted at three different temperatures: two
ferments each at 68, 64 and 62 deg F. Two of the six pressure ferments were
also purposely underpitched to see what effect that would have. By
contrast, all of the regular ferments were conducted at 68 deg F with
normal pitch levels.
Finished beers were assessed by laboratory testing and taste panel
evaluation. Triangular discrimination testing determined that on average
tasters could not tell the difference between a pressure and regular
ferment in a statistically significant number of cases. This despite the
differences in fermentation temperature, pressure and in some cases
quantity of pitched yeast.
As Dave Houseman indicates, laboratory testing did show increases in BUs
and diacetyl in the pressure fermentations, but these data bear further
examination.
In the BU results, the two underpitched beers showed an average increase of
3 BUs and the author states that the properly pitched pressure
fermentations "did not show a consistent increase in bitterness"---although
the range appears to have been from +2 to +7 BUs v. the control brews so
the average increase would seem to be about the same as for the
underpitched beers.
Since most tasters cannot discriminate a bitterness difference of less than
5 BUs, this issue may be of little concern. In any case, the difference is
easily explained by the loss of bitterness components with the krausen that
is blown off by Full Sail's regular fermentation method (we show a nice
photo of a blow-off barrel surrounded by foam on page 51). Similar results
can be seen by homebrewers not practicing pressure fermentation if they
switch from a blow-off fermentation (5 gal in a 5 gal fermenter) to a fully
contained fermentation (5 gal in 7 gal fermenter). (I believe that Al
Korzonas may have published some work on this a half-dozen or more years ago.)
The diacetyl results showed that the underpitched beers gave a 23 ppb
increase while the normally-pitched beers gave a 13 ppb increase. Here the
effects of underpitching are evident. The 13 ppb increase in diacetyl in
the other pressure ferments a) may be fully explained by the lower
fermentation temps, b) could most likely be reduced by a slightly longer
contact time with the yeast, and c) are probably not discernable by most
tasters in any case. (50 ppb is the flavor threshold for diacetyl.)
Given the variation inherent in ingredients, brewing process and routine
fermentation temperatures for the average homebrewer, I think it is
exceedingly unlikely that you would discern any consistent bias in your
results under pressure fermentation versus non-pressure. A more important
point for homebrewers is the potentially noticeable change in bitterness
brought on when you blow-off krausen during fermentation versus containing
it inside the fermenter.
Ray Daniels
Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer
Director, Brewers Publications
ray@aob.org
773-665-1300
Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
For more information, see www.beertown.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 05:32:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick <ale_brewer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Beer Builds Strong Bones
I don't think I saw this posted but felt it would be
of interest. Like we need another reason to drink
beer:
Study: Beer Builds Strong Bones
Scientists have kept the secret to strong bones
bottled up for years. Now, a new study has raised the
bar on the list of nutrients that could have benefits.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wcvb/20020704/lo/1247127_1.html
Rick Seibt
Mentor, OH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:10:18 -0400
From: "Craig Williams" <dcwilli@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Tampa Fl Brews
I recently moved from Tampa. If you want to try some great beer go to the
Tampa Bay Brewing Co. It's a brewpub in Ybor City. Great food & Breat Beer.
The owners also own a local Home Brew Supply store.
Craig Williams
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:08:37 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Building a Copper Chiller
HBDers: thought I'd post a short report on the Hull/Ottawa and Periphery
Zymurgists (HOPZ) (at least that's what I call us - we're still working on a
name) second event: a communal CFC building party. It was fabulous -
despite the rain we had some good homebrew, and made some decent chillers,
learning as we went. The chiller design was based on HOPZ member and beer
gadget guru Patrick Brochu's Chilly Willy (see:
http://pcbroch.homeip.net/chiller.html for details - very helpful if you're
thinking of building something like this yourself).
For a laugh, check out the photos of the event, hosted in Alan McKay's back
yard: http://www.bodensatz.com/gallery/Ottawa-Brewers, and click on the
Chilly Willy link.
Cheers!
Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca
If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger,
screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave Man, I
guess I'm a coward.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:01 -0500
From: Joe Preiser <jpreiser@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Visiting Belgium
Here are a few places I'd recommend when in Brussels. They are all
within walking distance (sometimes it's a good walk) from the Grand
Place.
Beer Circus (89 Rue de l'Enseignement) Highly recommended bar
Poechenellekelder Pub (5 Rue du Chene)
Across from the Mannekin Pis statue
Spinnekopke (1 Place du Jardin) Great food/beer
La Becasse (near 11 Rue de Tabora)
Timmerman's lambic in stone pitchers
Mort Subite (7 Rue Montagnes aux Herbes Potageres)
near the shopping plaza off the Grand Place
serves Mort Subite lambics among others
There's also the Cantillon museum/brewery if you want to check out a
traditional lambic brewery. I don't know what you get to see on days
other than their semi-annual open brewing day, but it's still worth the
trip if you like the style.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:31:56 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny@projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter clone recipe?
Good timiong, Jeff. I was just at the Rogue Public House for lunch
yesterday, and had a pint of Younger's (and Brutal Bitter, and Smoke,
and..). The 35 IBU Younger's didn't seem hoppy at all, but hey, I'm a PNW
kinda guy. I would guess that crystal 40 would get you into thew ballpark
colorwise. The beer has a pretty good body, so don't go too short on the
crystal. The nose didn't seem overwhelmingly hoppy, so keep late additions
moderate. I would definitely say the Willamette for bittering and a bit of
flavor and finish with the EKGs. See if you can get a fresh bottle of
Shakespeare and culture up the Pacman from it.
Hope this helps some.
--------------->Denny
Jeff Renner asked:
A non-brewing friend who is interested in learning brewing likes
Rogue's Younger's Special Bitter. I tried it again and agree - very
nice beer.
I'd like to clone it. Some web searching reveals consensus that
Rogue stout and porter contain the Pacman strain, and the Rogue web
site http://www.rogue.com/beers.htm gives these details:
"YSB is amber in color with a mild hoppy finish. Brewed with a blend
of 2-row Harrington and Crystal malts, Willamette and East Kent
Golding hops. YSB is available in a 12-ounce 6-pack, and on draft.
Measurements: 12 Degrees Plato, IBU 35, Apparent attenuation 75, Lovibond 17."
Only in the Pacific NW would 35 IBU be called mildly hoppy!
This is pretty useful info, but does anyone have any further ideas,
like what color crystal malts and how much? How are the hops used?
Elsewhere on the site they tell what their base malt is and suggest
that they use Beeston crystal, and also seem to say that the hops are
domestic, although for my money, the term EKG means from East Kent.
Thanks.
Jeff
PS - some further info, first from the Rogue site:
"Our original Rogue Ale, Younger's Special Bitter (affectionately
nicknamed YSB) is a classic English Special Bitter named after Bill
Younger of the infamous Horse Brass Pub in Portland, Oregon. The Malt
Advocate described Younger's Special Bitter as "rich and flavorful. A
triad of caramel maltiness, fruitiness (apricots?), and hop
bitterness in aroma and flavor. A fuller malt foundation than some
other pale ales, with some background spiciness. Dry, hoppy finish."
In the SouthWest Brewing News, Feb/March 1994 issue, George Fix wrote
"A strong case could be made for Rogue Ale being included among the
top 5 ales brewed in the US."
It was named not for the Scottish brewery Younger's but was "Named in
tribute to Don Younger, whose Horse Brass Pub in Portland, OR, was
the first retailer to carry Rogue Ales. "
Found this review by noted English beer writer Roger Protz:
"Amber colored with a dense collar of foam. Great wafts of spicy
hops-good old Kent Goldings!-and nutty crystal malt on the aroma.
Raisin fruit in the mouth is balanced by peppery hops. Big, complex
aftertaste with sweet malt, sherry-like fruit and bitter hops, all
funneling together into a gentle, dry, rolling finish."
Found this in the 1996 archives of Celebrator Beer News:
"It's a new name and look for Rogue Ales' flagship beer, Rogue Ale.
The beer, a classic English-style special bitter, was originally
designed by Rogue Brewmaster John Maier and the late Bill Younger.
Bill was the brother of Don Younger, who has owned the Horse Brass
Pub in Portland, OR since 1976. HB was the first retailer to carry
Rogue Ales, and Bill Younger passed away the day the original Rogue
Ale was to debut at the Horse Brass. It has remained the house beer
ever since. The beer will be called Younger's Special Bitter."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:00 -0500
From: "Michael J. Roman" <resipsa@execpc.com>
Subject: Dortmund Water, Decoction, & Mash pH?
I plan on brewing an all-grain Dortmunder Export this weekend using a
decoction mash, and will be matching my water to the high sufate and
carbonate water of the Dortmund region.
Given the highly modified Czech pils malts I will be using and the
carbonate level in the water, I expect the mash pH will be way off from the
optimal 5.0-5.5 pH during the mash.
My question is how or if I should treat the mash to drop the pH. Do I
add even more gypsum or CaCl to the mash, Do I add lactic acid to the
mash and sparge? Or is this mismatch of high carbonate water and pale malts
what
defines the taste of a Dortmunder Export?
If I do not adjust the pH of the mash, do I alter my mashing schedule in
some way?
So does anybody have any experience brewing authentic Dortmunder Export
style beers?
M. Roman
Wausau, WI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:52:31 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick@jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Lou Bonham on the AHA
Hi all,
I just wanted to second the comments that Lou
Bonham posted last week on the progress made by the AHA
over the last five years. The positive attitude of the
AOB people was very much in evidence during the preparations
for this year's MCAB, here in Cleveland. The AOB arranged
for MCABers to have the lower AOB rate at the lovely
Renaissance Hotel, arranged for us to have rooms in the
hotel for judging and hospitality, and provided refrigerated
storage for the beers for the final round of the MCAB
competition. All of this was done very graciously and
professionally by the AOB staff, in support of a conference
that had its start as a revolt against the AHA a few years
back. In particular, we MCABers owe a debt to Nancy Johnson
and Paul Gatza for their help with MCAB. Earlier in that
week, the AHA/AOB folks helped a consortium of local homebrew
clubs, notably the Akrons SAAZ and Cleveland SNOBs, put on
a great evening of beer talks from Michael Jackson and
Charlie Papazian at Great Lakes Brewing Company, attended by
about 220 brewers and beer enthusiasts. This event could not
have happened without help from a national organization like
the AHA.
In short, I strongly agree with Lou's statements about
the "new AHA," and I encourage everyone to give the organization
a second chance.
Paul Shick
Cleveland Hts, Ohio
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:36:21 -0400
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder@buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: Making a weight percent solution - Plato
Fred was trying to help Pete by writing: "These statements are incorrect."
It was my understanding that Pete was planning on adding 13.6 g of sucrose
to 100 mL of water, resulting in a 12P solution. It looks like the quote you
cited was a typo on his part, but further on down Pete wrote:
>So to repeat my process, corrected for errors and using ethanol, to make an
>initial solution of OG=1.0483 (Plato=12), I will make a solution of 13.6 gm
>of table sugar in 100 gm of DH2O.
which _is_ correct. I think what he's trying to do is use an easily
measure-able volume of water. Maybe his scale doesn't go high enough to
weigh 100 g of water+sugar
I'd also be concerned about water being associated with the sugar. Drying
it at 110C prior to weighing it out might be a good idea.
However, since it's easy for me to sit here on my butt and pretend to know
what I'm talking about, I'll just shut up and give Pete the credit he
deserves for coming up with such a good idea and following through with it.
P.S. Can I borrow your solutions when you're done?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:39:01 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick@jcu.edu>
Subject: Astringency problems with rice hulls?
Hi all,
I've been having some problems with my mash bed
setting up in my last two brews, my first experiences with
mash hopping. It seems that the mash hops are clogging up
the filter bed to some extent. The flow is fast enough
for running off into the kettle, but it's a bit too slow
for me to run the burner and raise temperatures while
recirculating. However, early tasting of the resulting
bitters shows a lot of very smooth hop flavor, so I want
to continue the process (at least until I run out of pellet
hops.) My best fix, as far as I can see, is to use rice
hulls in the mash to keep the flow going nicely. My initial
guesstimate is about 1 lb of rice hulls mixed into about
20 lbs of grain, for a typical 10-11 gallon batch. I'm a little
worried about increasing the amount of husk in the grist by
this much, though. Have any of you tried-and-true rice hull
users had any noticable increase in astringency when you started
using them? Any problems with haze (from higher tannin or
polyphenol levels) ? Do you take extra pains to keep the mash pH
low, or the sparge water cool (< 170F)? Any feedback from experienced
hullers (or shameless speculators) is appreciated.
Paul Shick
Cleveland Hts, Ohio
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:59:17 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: retrograded starch
Alan is right, of course, regarding the fact that corn
doesn't have to be pre-mashed. Rice, though, I thought had
a gelatinization temperature higher than anything it would
see in the mash. Damn memory...
Corn will gelatinize between 65-70C, depending on what kind
of corn you have. Most "regular" corn is between 65-68C.
Why does this matter? Because the mash often sees 65-70C
temperatures in everyday brewing. I have no doubt that you
can be perfectly fine making CAPs this way. However...
I like a very attenuated CAP. What I'm looking for is a
reasonably dry, hoppy lager. I find that temperature rests
below 65C suit that best. This isn't to say that the corn
wouldn't gelatinize over time at 62C, but that it happens
slower. I do think that there's a certain "something",
likely carmelization, that comes out of the cereal mash.
As for the little retrograded corn pieces...I was unclear.
They happened after the mash had cooled down and I was
scooping it out into the garbage. That meant that the corn
had not all been digested (despite my normal mashing) and
was still floating around. One reason I came up with was
the possibility that I didn't gelatinize all of the starch
granules due to my predominantly low temperature mash.
My $0.02. For ease of use, corn flakes (yes...a box of corn
flakes) or flaked corn work just fine. The corn flakes even
add some minerals to the mix.
Cheers!
Marc
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:16:21 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay@neap.net>
Subject: Re: retrograded starch
Marc Sedam writes :
> Alan is right, of course, regarding the fact that corn
> doesn't have to be pre-mashed. Rice, though, I thought had
> a gelatinization temperature higher than anything it would
> see in the mash. Damn memory...
I think we may have misunderstood each other to some extent.
By "premash" I understood boiling the adjunct ahead of time with
an amount of malt (usually about 10% by weight as I understand).
I still give my adjunct a very good boil before mashing it,
but without any malt in it. This gelatinizes the starches
and away we go!
> My $0.02. For ease of use, corn flakes (yes...a box of corn
> flakes) or flaked corn work just fine. The corn flakes even
> add some minerals to the mix.
Yes-indeed! You can't beat the flakes for ease of use. And
puffed rice or puffed corn ( I never was brave enough to try
Sugar Corn Pops, but the stuff from the health food store which
contains only corn is awesome ) work just as well. Loblaws here
in Ontario has really cheap 500g bags of store-brand puffed
rice that save a lot of time and don't cost much.
cheers,
-Alan
- --
http://www.bodensatz.com/
The Beer Site (tm)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Crouch <kcrouching@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: batch sparging and stirring grain
Charles Stewart Writes...
"For my past few brews, I've tried batch sparging as a
way to end up
with two brews. It's worked great!"
Charles, and anyobody out there wants to have a bit
more fun with their beers, I do this as well and have
really enjoyed the results. My method differs only in
that I never fully drain the the mash/lauter tun, or
stir the mash. All I do is keep tabs on the gravity
of the runoff and the wort and kill it when I've got
the right volume and gravity for beer #1. This is
usually formulated to hit right about when the runoff
drops to about 1.040 or so. Then I'll stop the sparge
for a bit and let the grain mash a while longer before
starting runoff of beer#2.
This method has a number of benefits. First, since
the sparge time is lowered for beer#1, there is less
risk of temperature and pH fluctuation of the grain
bed while sparging, which helps you get the beer you
set off to make. Also, thanks to a suggestion from
one of our peers that I put to the test in my brewery,
I am now convinced that the malt character in brews
that are derived from the "first runnings", so to
speak, is noticeably fuller and cleaner than in beers
that are allowed to runoff down to lower gravities. Of
course, this type of "parti-gyle" brewing is easy if
you have two kettles and two burners, but it is still
possible with 1 kettle if you aren't married, working,
or have any other social agendas.
I'd also like to thank Jim Cave for highlighting the
importance of maintaining a "density gradient".
Starch conversion follows the logic of equilibrium; In
order to promote the yield of products, one must
continually remove them to keep the reaction moving in
the right direction. In other words, the rate of
starch conversion will slow as the sugar products
build up in the mash.
Ken Schwartz wrote" in regard to sparging
"Intuitively it seems gentle stirring would be
better than not but I don't have evidence to support
or refute this."
My experience is that all stirring a grain bed will
get you is turbid,oxidized wort. In addition to the
potential ill-effects of hot-side aeration,
maintaining the integrity of your grainbed is
essential to producing clear wort. Don't stir the
mash, maintain a slow, steady flow rate, and don't
agitate the grain bed during runoff any other way
(like moving it). I've found that even throttling the
flow rate a bit too much can affect turbidity.
There's a good post in the archives that deals with
wort turbidity...http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3236.html
if anyone wants to know why this is worth looking
into.
Kevin Crouch
Vancouver, WA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:50:35 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Tampa Fla. brews
Mark Kellums writes:
"We'll be heading down to Indian Rocks beach in the Tampa Fla. area on the
19th of this month. We'll be meeting up with some relatives from England.
I'd like to show off some good American micro-brews to our English cousins
if there are any to be had in the Tampa area. Are there any brew pubs around
Tampa?"
Absolutely, you'll have several choices for good brew pubs.
in the Ybor City area of Tampa
Tampa Bay Brewing Co.
1812 N. 15th St., 813-247-1422
PALM HARBOR
Brooker Creek Grille & Taproom
36221 E. Lake Road, 813-786-2966
Dunedin Brewery
937 Douglas Avenue, Dunedin, FL 34698
(727) 736-0606
a bit further south
SARASOTA
Sarasota Brewing Company
6607 Gateway Ave., 813-925-2337
All three have good beer, and all the brewmasters are very homebrewer
friendly. I believe that Indian Rocks is on the coast just North of Tampa so
Brooker Creek & Dunedin should both be pretty close. Ybor City is an old part
of Tampa, gone touristy, TBBC has very good beer & food. Hope you have a great
trip.
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3986, 07/11/02
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