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HOMEBREW Digest #3920
HOMEBREW Digest #3920 Sat 20 April 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:
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Contents:
RIMS ramp rates ("Dave Howell")
re:Fermentation Temperature Control ("Parker Dutro")
High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36 ("Gregor Zellmann")
Klein & Synaesthesia ("Charles R. Stewart")
AHA Memberships ("John Misrahi")
Sparge pH (AJ)
RIMS Heater limitation (Tony Verhulst)
RE: Adventures in Bottling ("Walker, Randy")
AHA International Membership Question ("Paul Gatza")
RIMS Heater limitation ("Kent Fletcher")
Bad RIMS performance ("Schrempp, Michael")
AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints ("jps")
Re: Ice Stabilization (Scott Murman)
Homer and the weasels (Frank Tutzauer)
Sparge rates (Paddock Wood Customer Service)
Dark DME ("David Craft")
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:04:47 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell@cableaz.com>
Subject: RIMS ramp rates
In HBD #3919 Steven Parfitt wrote:
"I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase 115vac (60hz)line
for the heat source.
...
I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it was only up
to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min."
Well, Steve, it's like this:
I use a 5kW element, same situation, 120VAC (I must be closer to the
substation, huh?).
I get ramp rates of 0.95 deg F/min. Insulating (heck, just using a lid on
the mash tun) got me this much performance. All I used was some reflective
wrap around the RIMS chamber.
I don't really think you want to deliver more heat, or at least not without
process control on the delta-T across the chamber, for fear of scorching.
I've about given up on this holy grail... and finding close to 1 deg F/min
and manual control is just fine for my step mashes.
'Course, around here (Metro Phoenix) in the summer, I don't lose heat to the
ambient environment...
Dave Howell
Mesa, AZ
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:46:41 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <ezekiel128@edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: re:Fermentation Temperature Control
Jim,
I checked out your site with the fermentation cooler you built. WOW!
That's a beautiful machine you have birthed. It looks like it could use
some blinking Christmas lights or neon strips along the outside. Maybe just
some glitter... But seriously, it's quite impressive. I think I feel more
comfortable attempting to construct the Son of fermentation chiller by Ken
Schwartz, not because it looks more capable, but because the process is not
so frightening!
Chill on, man.
Parker Dutro
P-town
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:18:28 +0200
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor@blinx.de>
Subject: High Pressure Lager Yeast L 36
Fello Brewers,
yesterday I came across the very interesting website of the "Brewing Science
Institute" BSI. ( http://www.brewingscience.com/ ) On their yeast listings
I found:
"L36 High-pressure Lager
average apparent attenuation, medium flocculation, broad fermentation
range
Produces an authentic-tasting, mature lager beer in about a week. Ferments
at room temperature under 15psi until final gravity is reached.Conditioned
at near-freezing temperatures under 15psi for a few more days. Should not be
repitched, but rather propagated fresh every time."
A lager in a week?
Sounds definitely interesting. Did anybody use and experiment with this
strain? Is it a Saccaromyces Cerevisiae strain at all?
What is the origin of this yeast? What stands the L for?
How does beer fermented with that strain taste?
I use heavy duty plastic fermenters, which could stand that pressure. I
would only have to develop and attach a spring-valve that releases pressure
above the 15 psi. That should not be a big problem.
cheers
Gregor
Berlin, Germany
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:22:43 -0400
From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles@TheStewarts.com>
Subject: Klein & Synaesthesia
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, "James Sploonta" <biere_god@hotmail.com>
>> For instance, not many would associate the term "mouthfeel" with
bitterness or sweetness. Those are flavors. I have less difficulty with his
wanton destruction of the meaning of the term "body" (to us, a class of
"mouthfeel" descriptors - light, thin, rich, heavy, watery...) by using it
to describe the physical touch-feel-see instantiation of the brew, but even
this does not fit with our beer culture.<<
Synaesthesia! That's the Klein's problem. He has that rare neurological
condition that allows him to taste colors and feel flavors. I just plugged
the two spellings into Google (synaesthesia and synesthesia) and came up
with 12,700 and 22,600 fascinating links, respectively. These included The
American Synesthesia Association - http://www.multimediaplace.com/asa/, and
some other interesting ones - http://www.ncu.edu.tw/~daysa/synesthesia.htm
and http://www.lunarium.net/synesthesia/syn.htm. Now the only question is
whether this is naturally occurring or is of a chemical origin (hashish,
peyote, ketamine, etc.).
Case solved. Now it's time for a nice, loud beer.
Chip Stewart
Charles@TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com
Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section
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is subject to a download and archival fee of US$500.00. The sending or
forwarding of such e-mail constitutes acceptance of these terms.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:48:06 -0700
From: "John Misrahi" <lmoukhin@sprint.ca>
Subject: AHA Memberships
I too was considering getting a membership with the AHA, I am a Canadian
brewer. I went to the sign up page and was quite disappointed, and I have to
agree with this previous post below. I will not be joining either.
John Misrahi
Montreal, CANADA
Could it be that you are eliminating the Canadian membership class simply
because of your inability to spell the word correctly? We find two
occurrences of the letter 'n' to be quite sufficient for our purposes.
In all seriousness, I can accept Canadian rates going up to better cover
your costs. However, it appears by combining the classes you are having
Canadian members subsidize the costs of international memberships. Unless I
hear back from you with a valid rationale for this, I shall be writing a
letter to CABA (our association), and posting in brewing forums (such as
this) encouraging all Canadians to discontinue their memberships in the AHA.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:50:58 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Sparge pH
For Arnaud,
It's not surprising that adding calcium chloride and gypsum to your
sparge water doesn't lower the pH much . In fact if you see any change
at all it would probably be due to increased ionic strength. Calcium and
magnesium lower pH in the mash tun because they react with malt
phosphate and we hope that your mains water hasn't enough phosphate to
cause a pH shift.
You shouldn't really need to lower sparge water pH if you keep an eye on
runoff gravity and terminate collection at about 2 P or you can monitor
runoff pH and terminate when you get uncomfortable. This should start to
happen at about 2 P.
Certainly you can lower sparge water pH with mineral or organic acids.
If you have decarbonated the sparge water it shouldn't take much. Ken
Schwarz pounted out to me several years ago that the handiest acid for
treatment of sparge water, and one with no objection flavor from the
cation, is a little dry malt extract. Depending on the alkalinity left
in your water after decarbonation it should only take a few tbsp to
acidify the volume of sparge water. BTW, if you see this Ken, I was
questioned by a pro brewer at the CBC last week who was trying to
acidify sparge water with gypsum and I suggested this same trick - add
some early runoff to the sparge water.
- --
A.J. deLange
CT Project Manager
Zeta Associates
10302 Eaton Place
Fairfax, VA 22030
(703) 359 8696
855 0905
ajdel@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:48:45 -0400
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst@zk3.dec.com>
Subject: RIMS Heater limitation
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98@hotmail.com>
> I test fired my RIMS heater that I added to my brewery the other
> night, and was rather dissapointed in the temp ramp capibility I
> achieved. I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase
> 115vac (60hz)line for the heat source.
> Actual measured voltage at the element terminals is 109VAC
> (the rest is lost in line loss, TRIAC drop, circuit breaker drop,
> etc. I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it
> was only up to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min.
This sounds about right. With my electric powered heat exchanger
(http://www.world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm) running 4500 watts at
(measured) 236VAC (slightly more than 4 times your power) I see a 3F/min
temp rise under similar conditions.
> It will take roughly 30 minutes to ramp 10C.
Yup!
> Is this going to be a fast enough ramp to do multi step mashes?
Pretty marginal, isn't it? Most 120VAC RIMS systems I've seen are no
larger than 5 gallon capacity.
Tony
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:03:03 -0600
From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr@littongcs.com>
Subject: RE: Adventures in Bottling
The Primetab site says to use 3 to 5 tablets per bottle.
How many did you use?
Randy Walker
Northrop Grumman
Navigation Systems Division
Salt Lake City, UT
801-539-1200, X-7484
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:13:52 -0600
From: "Paul Gatza" <paul@aob.org>
Subject: AHA International Membership Question
Brian asks if the increased cost on AHA memberships in Canada is subsidizing
a lower international membership rate for other members. The answer is no,
and perhaps the fees for international members have been slightly reducing
everyone else's cost over the years. There is more to the cost than just the
international shipping surcharges. There is a separate list we have to run
for the printer, which adds to our administrative costs, and we are charged
by our printer (who ships the magazine for us as well) beyond the difference
in the beneficial bulk shipping rate we receive on the domestic copies.
Thanks to you and Pat for the heads up on the spelling error on
www.beertown.org. As a passionate ice hockey fan, I have always used the
rule of thumb that the team is the "Canadiens" with an "e" and all other
uses are "Canadians" with an "a." "Canandians" fits neither of these choices
and I'll submit a web request to change it on the site. I certainly mean no
slight. In fact, the Canadian national anthem is one of two songs I am
willing to sing in public. (Why does everyone leave the area when I sing?)
We rely on our members to catch web issues like this--which we often miss
because we are so close to the content and do not always see it for what it
really says. If you see any other site errors, please let Gary Glass know at
(www.gary@aob.org). We currently are fixing up a couple of errors on the
legalization section brought to our attention by members.
On a side note, keep up the brewing in Canada. I know it is not always easy
to get quality ingredients, as the supply side of the industry there tends
to cater less to beermakers than to winemakers--not that I have anything
against winemaking, it would just be nice to have better access to fresher
supplies with more selection for brewers. In talking with several Canadian
supply shop owners in Niagara Falls, Canada in 2000, they indicated that
many supply shops do not carry base grains or grain at all in some cases.
Paul Gatza
Director--American Homebrewers Association
Director--Institute for Brewing Studies
Association of Brewers
736 Pearl St., Boulder, CO, USA 80302
+1.303.447.0816 ext. 122
mailto:paul@aob.org
www.beertown.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:04:22 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher@socal.rr.com>
Subject: RIMS Heater limitation
Steven,
Off the top of my head, I would think you are going to need to expand your
rims chamber to run a second element the same size as the first. You
achieved 2/3 degree F./minute on your test, 1 degree F. per minute is a more
desirable rate. To raise 7.5 gallons of water one degree F. per minute at
sea level requires something around 3800 btu/hr heat input. While a single
derated element would be adequate fo 5 gallon batches (it has been for
several RIMSers on this board), your declared mash of 20 liters and 20
pounds (can't commit to either English or Metric, can you?) is a healthy 10
gallon brew. Double the thermal mass, double the heat input. Shouldn't be
too hard to expand your heater. Presuming you used threaded fittings, all
you need is a coupling (or elbow, you could "bend" your heater if you have a
linear space limitation) and a second nipple the same length as the
original. And the second element, of course.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:56:40 -0700
From: "Schrempp, Michael" <michael.schrempp@intel.com>
Subject: Bad RIMS performance
Steven Parfitt writes:
"I test fired my RIMS heater that I added to my brewery the other night, and
was rather dissapointed in the temp ramp capibility I achieved.
I'm using a 4500W 240VAC heating element on single phase 115vac (60hz)line
for the heat source.
Actual measured voltage at the element terminals is 109VAC (the rest is lost
in line loss, TRIAC drop, circuit breaker drop, etc.
I ran a 7.5 Gallon test run starting at 63F. In a half hour it was only up
to 83F, which gives a temp rise of only 0.67F/min, or 0.37C/min.
I choose 7.5 gallons to simulate 20L water and 20# grain. The Specific heat
of grain being much less than water.
It will take roughly 30 minutes to ramp 10C.
At 109V, the power of you element should be (109/240)*4500 = 2044W = 2044
J/sec
Specific heat of water is 4184 J/KgC
You have 7.5 gallons of water = 75.6 L of water = 75.6Kg of water
So the specific heat of your whole experiment is 4184 * 75.6 = 316310 J/C
With you heater running at 2044J/sec, you get 2044/316310 = 0.0065 C/sec =
.387 C/min
This matches what you saw. I think that your assumption for your simulation
is wrong. Using 75.6 L of water to simulate 20L water plus 20# of grain
means that you are using 55.6L of that water to simulate the 20# of grain.
55.6L of water is 25#. You've got way too much water. The specific heat of
malted barley is about 1200 J/kg C (ref hbd # 3882). You should have used
1200/4184 = 29% of the grain weight, or 5.73lb = 12.6L.
Now, with 20L of water and 12.6L of water to simulate the grain, you get a
total specific heat of 4184 * (20+12.6) =136398J/C.
With your heater running at 2044 j/sec you get 2044/136398 = 0.0015C/sec =
.9C/minute
Mike Schrempp
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:58:53 -0400
From: "jps" <segedy@gsinet.net>
Subject: AHA-price gouging, afraid to post opposing viewpoints
The below statement was denied posting on Techtalk. This censorship is even
more offensive than the price raising itself. As far as the offer to
subscribe for 3 years in advance, sounds like $ down the tube, what happens
to the $ if bankruptcy hits??
Well the begining of the end is here. Just a few monthes ago when
the subject came up the people indicated a desire for a cheper more
limited membership. And what did we get? Higher prices. Perhaps we
could have
increased membership. Oh well... R.I.P. AHA. I for one
will not be renewing. One true point made by Mr Gatzas : People
should direct their energies into the hobby of homebrewing. I will
and when my subscriptipn
expires I will look to fellow homebrewers on HBD for
information. Perhaps I ill start contributing some of my saved money to
their server fund.
John Segedy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:53:15 -0400
From: Scott Murman <smurman@segosha.net>
Subject: Re: Ice Stabilization
> While re-reading G. Fix's (RIP-we all miss him) Principles of
> Brewing Science I ran across the section on Ice Stabilization on
> p. 149 and the concept is unique to me (and in the HB world it seems
> as well - I did some searches in the archives and found nothing)
> although it seems to have many benefits.
<big ol snip>
surprised you couldn't find anything in the archives, 'cause we did go
over this, and probably more than once. if you're really interested
in this subject i would suggest going straight to the brewing journals
for the how/where/why, and skip Fix's stuff.
my personal opinion is that it's not something you want to bother with
as a homebrewer. the crystallization process is indiscriminate - it
will remove stuff you want as well as stuff you don't want - and it's
also hard to control with homebrew equipment (how were you going to
stop the freezing at X%? which cooling process to promote crystal
formation were you going to use?) the big boys don't have these
problems as they don't have much left that we'd want to keep, and
they're not overly concerned about keeping it anyway. they also have
large line items in their budgets for capital expenditure, and if it
will improve the bottom line (longer shelf life, more consistent
product), they're all for it. i think the folks selling bottled water
may have already beaten them to the ultimate beverage product however.
-SM-
Redwood City, CA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 15:34:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Homer and the weasels
Biffy the Brewer wrote of Lynne:
>Of course if she did that, the "weasels" would criticize her for
>being "dishonest". She can't win with the weasel-types.
Hey, hey, ease up there. Weaseling is what separates us from the
animals. Well, except for weasels.
Doh!
Homer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:34:26 -0600
From: Paddock Wood Customer Service <experts@paddockwood.com>
Subject: Sparge rates
Ryan asks for help with his sparge rate, in his 2nd use of his new all grain
system. There are far more qualified folks to deal with sparge and flow
rates (John Palmer, where are you?), so I will just suggest that many folks
find not worrying about details like sparge rates is a good reason to use
the batch sparge method. Plus you get better beer, and it's simpler. I get
evangelical about it so I'll stop now, and just post this link:
http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_batch_sparging.html
Batch sparging! It will save your time, it will save your beer, .... right,
I was going to stop...
Hope this helps, Ryan, even if it's not quite what you asked for!
cheers,
Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiis sugant."
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK, Canada
experts@paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:38:29 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Dark DME
Greetings,
I have come across some Dark DME, 9 lbs to be exact. The color is 60
EBC................
This is not something I would normally buy.
The best way to get rid of it, Russian Imperial Stout! Any other ideas?
Since I have not used this type of DME except in small quantities, any idea
of how it would fit into a RIS recipe. How much would I cut back on the
Roasted, Black, or Chocolate malts or would I?
I have Promash, but I need some guidance here.
Thanks for any input................
David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #3920, 04/20/02
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