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HOMEBREW Digest #3921
HOMEBREW Digest #3921 Mon 22 April 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
bottling: overfiller => undercarbonated. ("Steve Alexander")
Bad RIMS calcs ("Kent Fletcher")
Re: Ice Stabilization/HSA problems ("Steve Alexander")
Re: constant sparge flow rate ("Arnold Neitzke")
Low Alcohol Beer (George Fergusson)
primetabs (Joe Yoder)
AHA Membership ("Carrol McCracken")
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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:24:43 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: bottling: overfiller => undercarbonated.
Mark Anderson writes ...
>[...] after three weeks, there isn't a hint of carbonation. Not
>a puff. The problem may be that I didn't allow headspace in the neck of
>the bottle.
Parker Dutro adds
>I do know that a head space of an inch or so allows the yeast to utilize
the
>trapped O2 in their conversion of the sugar and production of CO2 (not sure
>how), and for some reason no headspace can prevent full carbonation.
Headspace is the problem Mark. If you check the HBD archives you'll find
that Al Korzonas and I discussed this phenomena at length several years
back.
Overfilled bottles undercarbonate or perhaps carbonate only very slowly.
Yeast & oxidation processes will use any O2 in the headspace - but this is
unrelated to the overfilled => undercarbonated phenomena.
Why this happens is one of the unsolved mysteries of homebrewing.
Smaller headspace ->
higher head pressure (before equilibrium) ->
poorer bottle fermentation
is a working hypothesis - but lacks evidence and this explanation has
some problems.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:31:55 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher@socal.rr.com>
Subject: Bad RIMS calcs
In assessing Steven Parfitt's RIMS test, Michael Schrempp wrote:
"At 109V, the power of you element should be (109/240)*4500 = 2044W = 2044
J/sec"
This is not correct. The actual power of a 240 v 4500 watt element running
at 109 v is about 930 watts. Solve for resistance of the element on order
to derive power at other than rated voltage.
Michael continues: "You have 7.5 gallons of water = 75.6 L of water = 75.6Kg
of water"
While 75.6 liters of water does weigh 75.6 kilograms, 7.5 GALLONS of water =
28.3875 liters, hence 28.3875 kilos. So, in fact Steven's simulation
probably simulated something closer to 13.5 pounds of grain in 20 liters of
water.
The bottom line is, Steven's RIMS is WAY underpowered for anything larger
than 5 gallon batches. I assume Steven is using the larger element at the
lower voltage to lower the watt density to avoid carmelization and scaling.
You have a few choices: 1. Add a second similarly sized element, as I
mentioned in #3920. 2. Replace the element with a 120 volt low watt density
model like Grainger # 2E754 at 1600 watts and keep the flow rate high enogh
to avoid scorching. 3. Go to 240 volt, increasing the size of your RIMS
chamber to hold Grainger # 2E673, this is one of their "Water Wizard" models
with a nickel alloy sheath, and the element doubles back on itself to
achieve ultra low watt density. 4. Hook up your present element to 240 v
and use PWM to drive a solid state relay, then tune the pulse rate to a
sweet spot between rapid delta t and scorching. And have a cold one. (Or
do like me and go to HERMS!)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 04:48:43 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ice Stabilization/HSA problems
Scott Murman comments
>> Ice Stabilization [...] the concept is unique to me (and in the HB
>>world it seems as well [...]
Hardly - HBers have been making eisbock by a similar process for
many years and claiming softer flavor and better stability.
>surprised you couldn't find anything in the archives, 'cause we did go
>over this, and probably more than once. if you're really interested
>in this subject i would suggest going straight to the brewing journals
>for the how/where/why, and skip Fix's stuff.
Same here - it is in the archives under eisbock.
Kunze has a great description of the process and it's advantages - and
it's a good book for any HBer interested in how the modern Germans
brew.
>my personal opinion is that it's not something you want to bother with
>as a homebrewer. the crystallization process is indiscriminate - it
>will remove stuff you want as well as stuff you don't want
I have only used this process 3 or 4 times, but never had any control
problems. If you freeze too much you can allow it to warm a little and
try again - quite easy. If you are freezing a corny or whatever - you
can wrap the tank in bubble wrap (or whatever) to modulate the heat
flow. If you let it freeze solid it will expand, overflow and make a mess.
The "trick" is to avoid quick freezing. If you do it right the ice you
remove will have only a small amount of flavor and color - water with
a little phenolics & yeast and whisp of trubby stuff. The ice sinks btw so
it's simple to rack off the beer. My experience was in removing 5-10%
of the volume as ice after 2-3 day chilling period.
At one of my local club meetings a few years ago I was served a light
bodied dark colored 'beer' and was told that this that the melted ice
extracted from an eisbock! Now that brewer obviously froze the beer
fast and made a mess of the extraction.
Kunze suggests (except for eisbocks) that after ice removal the fermenter
be topped with pH adjusted water so the beer maintains a constant ABV%.
The resulting beers have a much softer mouthfeel, which is good in
moderation, but bad in excess as Scott implied. It won't correct an
overly phenolic beer either - I tried this with a too-rye beer once and it
was an interesting experiment but a failure.
============
alastair writes ...
>I always
>considered HSA as the brewing equivalent of an urban legend and paid it
>little attention. [...] I also collect my runnings in a separate
>container and pour it from a good height into my kettle in what I now
>call the 'salute to those who believe in HSA'. So far I've not noticed
>any oxidation problems [...]
There's a difference between ignorance and not having a latent
oxidation problem (and you shouldn't be so proud of the former).
I suspect you've never tried to tell the difference Alistair.
Tell you what - place a couple of your bottled beers in a warm spot
(40C for a week, or 30C for 3 weeks ) while keeping some controls
chilled. The temperature boost accelerates the aging processes that
have begun with the introduction of oxygen,and culminate with the
development of unpleasant changes to flavor compounds. Then
chill all the beers to identical temps. Call over a few friends and
perform a triangle tasting of the control vs accelerated aged samples.
Try a bock or marzen - they work quite nicely. The flavor
differences should be obvious. Once sensitized to the changes
you'll have less difficulty identifying staling in the future.
Some of the better studied oxidation processes are accelerated so
that one week @40C is about the same as 3 months at cellar temps.
>I think someone should point out that if HSA is a real effect, it is so
>subtle that no one need worry about it.
Yeah - aldehydes, fading hop bitterness and a caramel note
never develop in HB. All HBs taste identically the same at
week 4 and week 15 because it's soooo bloody stable and
there are no oxidation changes in the bottle. That's the urban
legend Alistair. Major portions of these flavor changes are
due to oxidation.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 06:18:44 -0400
From: "Arnold Neitzke" <arnold_neitzke@ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: constant sparge flow rate
> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:25:38 -0500
> From: "Ryan and Shelly" <furstenau@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: constant sparge flow rate
>
<SNIP>
> If the solution is to keep the tube out of the wort, how do I avoid hot
side
> areation? Do I keep the tube pressed up against the side of the kettle?
>
> Please help. My 1st sparge took almost 90 minutes. I would like to shoot
> for 45 minutes.
>
> Ryan, Omaha, NE, USA
Ryan
It sounds like you have solved your own problem. Put a float on the end of
your hose and as the level comes up the end of your hose will too.
Arnold Neitzke
Brighton Mi (a close satellite to the center of the brewing universe :)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:51:41 -0400
From: George Fergusson <gsferg@clary.gwi.net>
Subject: Low Alcohol Beer
Hi All-
Does anyone have any experience with brewing low-alcohol or no-alcohol beers?
I'm talking ABV percentages in the 0.5% to 1.5% range. I'm sure this has been
discussed before but I went to search the HBD archives this morning only to
receive a "Syntax error at offset.." error. I've been discussing this on the
UK-HOMEBREW list but haven't received any suggestions from anyone who has
tried doing this.
My goal is to brew some of my favorite bitters and pale ales with all the
flavor, body, hops, and appeal of the originals but with a fraction of the
alcohol. My reasons are that I really like to brew and drink Good Beer but
could do with a lot less alcohol in my diet.
What I'm thinking of doing is brewing a "regular" 5UK gallon batch with a
finished ABV of around 4% and when it's been in the secondary a while, racking
3/4 of it into my cooker, heating it up gently to drive off the alcohol.. when
the alcohol is gone, pour it back in the secondary and let it finish up. This
would leave me with 25% of the original alcohol, or about 1% ABV. There should
still be enough yeast in the beer to bottle condition- if not I suppose I can
pitch a bit more at bottling.
Figuring out when the alcohol is gone is a bit problematic, but I think I can
periodically check the specific gravity to see what kind of progress I've made
since the SG will rise as the alcohol is driven off- when it stops rising,
theoretically the alcohol is gone but of course, should I keep heating it
beyond that point, the evaporation of water itself will cause the specific
gravity to continue to rise, so it seems like there is some guesswork
required. I'd expect the rate of change of the SG would change (drop) once the
alcohol was gone.
Another way to solve this problem would be to capture and condense the vapor
and taste it, though at the risk of becoming seriously inebriated which is of
course, the exact opposite effect I'm looking to achieve with this exercise :)
Then again, the Scotch in me cringes at the thought of vanishing all that
perfectly good alcohol into the atmosphere so perhaps I'll build a still
anyways- I can always run my car on it..
Sound reasonable? One concern I have is driving off other volatiles along with
the alcohol, like hop oils, and any other effects on flavor from heating up
fermented beer. I suppose that will take some experimentation.
Suggestions?
George-
- ----------------
George Fergusson
Whitefield Maine
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:59:44 -0500
From: Joe Yoder <headduck@swbell.net>
Subject: primetabs
Randy Walker asks: The Primetab site says to use 3 to 5 tablets per
bottle.
How many did you use?
Randy, I have had the best luck using 2 1/2 tabs per 12 oz. bottle. Two
seemed undercarbonated and 3 was overcarbonated. Maybe we could talk
Domenick into making a 1/2 size tab??
Joe Yoder
Lawrence, KS
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:34:51 -0500
From: "Carrol McCracken" <carrolmccracken@mchsi.com>
Subject: AHA Membership
Here is another example of a business looking at their expenses and then
dividing it by their current membership number to come up with the fee they
want to charge. I sure hope (but I would be surprised) someone with the AHA
understands and considered economic demand curves. Simple indirect
relationship, price goes up, demand will usually fall, so they could end up
with the same amount of income as before or sometimes even less until
equilibrium is reached. I wouldn't make any bets on them increasing their
revenue just yet.
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3921, 04/22/02
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