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HOMEBREW Digest #3854
HOMEBREW Digest #3854 Fri 01 February 2002
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Indoor automated brewing: (Beaverplt)
re: frozen liquid ale yeast?/redissolves/Digest Netiquette ("Steve Alexander")
Good mailorder beer kit locations? ("Tray Bourgoyne")
Further- Whirlygigs (Bob Sheck)
BT Back Issues & Do you scoop? ("Mike Maag")
Grain/water ratio ("chris eidson")
Fermenters (John Maylone)
Re: Acetylene regulator ("Brian Morgan")
RE: Fruit Concentrates ("Mark Nelson")
PBW as a sanitizer ("David Craft")
Re: Frozen liquid ale yeast? ("Jodie")
Moving Brews Company? (Andrew Nix)
Further stuck fermentation (john.mcgowan)
Moving Brews: gone? (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer@indsys.ge.com>
Re: Fermentation, Fruit Concentrates ("Kristen Chester")
Sanitizing and Cleaning ("Jim Bermingham")
Meadllennium V Results (Ron Bach)
PTOs and IBUs (mohrstrom)
BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition ("Houseman, David L")
RE: FWH and boilovers ("Dennis Lewis")
Dump Gump Attention: All AHA members (Steve Casselman)
Fw: historical beer /yeast ("Doug L.")
FWH & boilover ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:55:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Indoor automated brewing:
Glen asks about safe indoor brewing. This question
comes up often. I posted something about this many
months ago and was surprised that there was not even a
whimper out of anyone else. The only safe way I can
think of to brew in a basement is with a natural gas
or electric stove. And, of course, the next problem is
getting enough BTUs.
I am indeed a very fortunate fellow in that SWMBO is
an excellent cook that appreciates having good
equipment. When we moved into our current abode She
insisted on getting "a decent stove". Well, "a decent
stove" turned out to be a 6 burner commercial Vulcan
that we bought used from a restaurant supply store
that bought their appliances from restaurants that
were going out of business. We paid a paltry $500 for
a well used stove that basically needed a good
cleaning. The beauty of it is the heat output is so
much higher than a standard home unit that getting a
vigorous boil on 5 gallons is no problem at all. And I
can brew in the kitchen! I'm not going to suggest that
you all talk your wives into putting commercial stoves
in the kitchen (although that would be ideal). My
suggestion really is that there must be used
restaurant supply places in most major towns. If a
stove can be purchased at a reasonable cost it might
be worth running a natural gas line into your
basement. I know that there are other problems that
would come up in individual situations. I'm hoping
I'll just be the catalyst for a new thread. Have fun
with it.
=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt
That's my story and I'm sticking to it
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:12:06 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: frozen liquid ale yeast?/redissolves/Digest Netiquette
Gregor Zellmann asks about freezing brewers yeast and it's use in baking.
Bakers yeast and brewers yeasts are quite different. Bakers yeast can store
over 5% of cell mass as sterols and 20+% as trehalose, compared to brewers
yeasts with 1-2% sterols and 5% trehalose. These vast stores of sterols
(which keep the membranes pliable at lower temps) and trehalose (an
important storage carbohydrate) make baker's yeast a much better candidate
for freezing. It also makes bakers yeast oxygen requirements quite
different from brewers.
Several books reference work by Kirsop, head of the British NCYC, showing
that frozen brewers yeasts with glycerine(2.5% to 5% glycerol) added when
revived 48 hours later have only 4 to 5% viability. That's good enough for
culture storage but unacceptable for pitching yeast.. To optimize the
survival to these low levels requires growing the yeast on an aerobic
substrate (like manitol) which maximizes sterol and UFA levels and then
controlling the temperature decrease from 20C to -30C over 2 hours.
Perhaps your slurry didn't freeze hard in the baker's freezer because of the
ethanol present. Cold storage without freezing is an excellent way to keep
pitching cultures. It seems unlikely but I have no better guess. You
should also be able to taste the hops bitterness from the IPA grown yeast in
the break. If not maybe the baker is pulling a fast one. I wouldn't
expect brewers yeast to perform particularly well in baking apps.
===
Dan Temple
>I was told [...] the Hot Break would
>immediately redissolve!
No it won't. You may crumble large hot break particles into small ones,
but they'll still sediment and won't redissolve without an alkaline bath.
You may have difficulty removing as much of the small particle break.
Fermentations carried out with more break give either better or worse flavor
depending on which study you believe. I personally prefer to remove more
break in light delicate styles like pils, but I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep
over the difference.
===
One personal POV on Netiquette. The best way to shave 120 lines from each
'gest is to cut out the lengthy sigs. I enjoy many of the quotes, but after
I've seen 'em once or twice they lose any appeal.
-S
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
"Wise men make proverbs, but fools repeat them. " - Samuel Palmer
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
- last words of Pancho Villa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:48:05 -0600
From: "Tray Bourgoyne" <tray@netdoor.com>
Subject: Good mailorder beer kit locations?
Where is a good place to mail order all-extract kits from?
Thanks,
Tray
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:31:23 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck@skantech.net>
Subject: Further- Whirlygigs
I've borrowed one, they work ok. Still, lots of putzing
around to set up a support system and all. I just
lay a light plastic platter on the top of the grain bed
and pour recirced mash and later the sparge
water right in.
No worries about temperature, either. It's 170F on top for
a long time, till it goes dry, and a little beyond, depending
on ambient air temp. FWIW, all the times I've measured,
the sparged wort coming out the bottom has NEVER
reached 170F. Not that I worry or loose sleep over it
like some of you do.
Bob Sheck // DEA - Down East Alers - Greenville, NC
bsheck@skantech.net // [583.2,140.6] Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 21:50:45 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm@rica.net>
Subject: BT Back Issues & Do you scoop?
The Brewing Techniques web site says:
" BrewingTechniques is also committed to fulfilling any
unmet obligations to past subscribers. If you had a claim
for issues not received, please contact Consumer's Edge
Network, who will work to resolve the matter."
I emailed Consumer's Edge Network, from their site
using the site link
info@consumersedgenetwork.com
and got a failure notice...I don't know if I should waste a
phone call.
Do you scoop? I do, because Al Korzonas says too.
In addition to helping control boilovers and reducing
off flavors, Al theorizes on page 76 of Homebrewing Vol I
"since the hops help form the hot break,some of the hot
break will coat the hops, interfering with the extraction
of their bitterness"
Hey, sounds good to me.
Mike Maag
in the Shenandoah Valley
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:13:42
From: "chris eidson" <eidsonc@hotmail.com>
Subject: Grain/water ratio
Being relatively new to all-grain brewing (3 batches so far), I was
wondering what the collective would suggest for water to grain ratios on hot
(~ 154f - 158f) single infusion mashes. How does variation in the ratio
manifest in terms of quality of the finished product? Thanks in advance for
any responses.
Chris Eidson
Birmingham, AL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:20:36 -0800
From: John Maylone <mrkoala@mac.com>
Subject: Fermenters
I am new to home brewing, and have been lurking here on the list for a week
or two. I would like some input from experienced brewers on fermenters.
Keep in mind that I am currently brewing kits and do not envision
transitioning to all-grain in the forseeable future.
I am overwhelmed by the variety of equipment available for fermenting and
would like to hear what the voice of experience says about the pros and cons
of plastic buckets vs. carboys vs. conical steel vs. conical plastic. The
negatives of the carboy are obvious, and yet a lot of you seem to use them.
I started cheap, with a 7 gallon bucket, which doesn't FEEL like "the cat's
meow" of brewing, but before I started upgrading I thought I'd ask for input
from people with what I don't have: experience.
Thanks for any input,
John
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:32:15 -0500
From: "Brian Morgan" <brian-morgan@cinci.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Acetylene regulator
If I remember my days from welding class (about 30 years ago...), Acetylene
is dissolved into acetone and steel wool to keep it from exploding under
pressure. Putting acetylene under pressure of more than about 50psi will
cause a rather violent and colorful explosion. To be useful, a welding tank
has to hold a lot of gas, so it's at a very high pressure, and the acetone
keeps it from exploding. Maybe that also affects the smell? At least
theoretically, you should never burn acetone until the tank is empty.
But I could be wrong...
Brian Morgan
Cincinnati
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:28:25 -0500
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Fruit Concentrates
Eric Dahlberg asks about fruit concentrates as a replacement for fresh
cherries in a Papazian Cherry Stout recipe.
Rather than juice concentrates, I've used dried sour cherries before with
good results.
http://www.brownwoodacres.com/cat-index.htm and
http://www.countryovens.com/ are sites that sell concentrates and dried
cherries, as well as the Amon Orchards site that you mention.
I believe the dried cherries will weigh in at 1/8th the weight of the fresh,
so a substitute for 5 lbs of fresh would be 10 ounces of dried. However,
you might want to bump that up a tad, since the cherries probably lose a
little aromatics during the drying process...
I've purchased, but not yet used a concentrate from Brownwood Acres - please
report back your results if you go that direction.
Lastly, I would add the cherries after the initial fermentation is just
about done. That will save some of the cherry flavor from being lost to the
atmosphere...
Mark Nelson
Atlanta GA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:32:32 -0500
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft@craftinsurance.com>
Subject: PBW as a sanitizer
Greetings,
I have read all the posts about One Step, Oxyclean, ect. I usually make a
little more than 5 gallons, kegging most and a few bottles for competition.
I soak the bottles in a standard solution of PBW and rinse well in hot
water. Are they sanitzed after a certain time? I haven't had any problems,
but again I only bottle about 6 at a time. I hoped that the Ph of solution
is high enough to kill any critters.........
Regards,
David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Homebrew Club
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC
Apparent Rennarian 478.4, 152
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:46:34 -0500
From: "Jodie" <jodie@ga.prestige.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen liquid ale yeast?
Can't speak for liquid brewing yeast, but I have kept bread yeast in the
freezer. Let it warm with the other ingredients in my bread maker, and the
resulting bread has been great. I make bread more often now (though not as
often as my cats) so I keep the yeast in the fridge these days. Made killer
foccacia last weekend. Have to repeat it for the Super Bowl this weekend!
Now if only my first batch of beer--which will be ready to taste this
weekend--came out okay ;)
Jodie Barthlow
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:16:01 -0500
From: Andrew Nix <anix@vt.edu>
Subject: Moving Brews Company?
Hey y'all,
I've been trying to purchase a pump for my RIMS system from Moving Brews
for about 2 weeks now. Their website says they are on "Holiday/Winter
break". This has been since December 26th. Anyone have any experience
with these guys around this time of year? It's the 31st of January, I
would think they'd be back in business by now. Anyone know the scoop
here? I am waiting on my pump to finish the plumbing for my new system.
I have looked at other options, including some vendors who sell March
pumps, but they all want $20-$30 more than Moving Brews. I want this pump
in particular...I know their are plenty of other magnetically coupled pump
manufacturers out there.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Drewmeister
Andrew Nix
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Virginia Tech
anix@vt.edu
http://www.vt.edu:10021/A/anix
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:53:55 -0500
From: john.mcgowan@us.abb.com
Subject: Further stuck fermentation
All this talk of stuck fermentation compels me to write to ask the collective
about my current dilemma.
I brewed 10 gallons of IPA with the following grain bill:
25# Pale
2# Munich
2# Crystal 60L
1# CaraPils
OG: 1.072
Split batch: 5 gal with WLP005 (British Ale); 5 gal with WLP051 (California V)
Aerated very well, but didn't have time to build up starters, so pitched
directly from vials.
After six days gravity was down to 1.030 (in both carboys), with no activity in
the airlock.
Roused the yeast -- No further activity.
One day later added 2.5 tsp of yeast nutrient (ID Carlson) to each and shook. No
change.
Repeated previous step two days later. Still nothing.
After 14 days, gravity of both is still 1.030
The beer is still a bit sweet and even masks the 10 oz of Centennial.
I was shooting for a FG of 1.018 - 1.022.
Your thoughts?
John McGowan
Hopewell, NJ (just down the hill from the Lindbergs' old place)
PS: I was intending to dump a stout on this yeast this weekend. Good or bad
idea?
JM
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:42:54 -0500
From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer@indsys.ge.com>
Subject: Moving Brews: gone?
Brewers,
On Moving Brews website, on the order page, it states: "Effective
Wednesday, December 26, 2001, 6:00 PM EST, we will not be accepting any new
orders until further notice. We will be taking a Holiday/Winter break."
Does anyone know if Bill is every coming back? If so, when? If not,
who sells a nice sight glass like his:
http://www.movingbrews.com/images/sightx2.jpg?
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
[394.9, 147.9] Apparent Rennerian
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:04:37 -0500
From: "Kristen Chester" <kristen@cambridge.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentation, Fruit Concentrates
Eric Dahlberg wrote: <snip> My other question concerns fruit
beers. I want to brew a Cherry Stout. The one I am considering
is from Papazian and calls for 5 lbs. Sour cherries. I can't find
an affordable source of fresh or frozen cherries this time of year
</snip>
Another thing you might want to try is dried cherries. They are
my traditional "secret ingredient" in my annual barleywine. I'm
not sure what the dried/fresh ratio is, but I can tell you that about
1/4 lb. provides a nice subtle cherry aroma in 5 gallons of beer.
With a pound of dried cherries, you will get a noticable taste and
aroma. (I would imagine that would come close to the 5 lb effect
in Papazian's recipe). You should be able to find dried tart cherries
in your local grocery or specialty foods market.
I usually add the dried cherries to the boil, about 20 minutes before
the end. The boiling wort will extract both flavor and color from the
cherries. Just scoop or filter them out at the end, and ferment
as usual.
Hope this helps.
Cheers!
Kristen Chester
I'm writing this from Reston, VA
But I don't know where the heck
I am Apparent Rennerian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:48:30 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham@antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Sanitizing and Cleaning
Each month without fail there are post on sanitizing. Questions about which
sanitizer is the best on this or that. Do I need to use bleach, hydrogen
peroxide, One Step, B-Bright or iodophor.
While sanitizing is good, it isn't the most important thing. Before you
sanitize, CLEAN, CLEAN and CLEAN AGAIN. The most important thing in
preventing infections is cleaning. Take your equipment apart and clean
every crack and crannie until it is as shinny as it was when new. The
little green scrubbies are great for this. After you have your brewery
items clean, sanitize. I use iodophor, but others are probably just as good
Using a sanitizer without a good cleaning just doesn't get the job done. A
good cleaning without sanitizing will kill more "nasties" than a good
sanitizing without the cleaning. Those of you who think cleaning with a
wipe and a promise will work because you sanitize, most likely will have
problems with infections down the road.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:59:01 -0500
From: Ron Bach <bachian@juno.com>
Subject: Meadllennium V Results
Thanks to everyone who sent entries in to Meadllennium V. The
competition was a complete success with 76 total entries including some
sent all the way from Alaska!
The results are posted at www.cfhb.org
Ron Bach
Meadllennium V Organizer
Orlando, FL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:47:04 -0500
From: mohrstrom@humphrey-products.com
Subject: PTOs and IBUs
Steve Alexander asks the driving question:
> Do you think the PTO adapter for my
> grain mill is going too far ?
Don't think that it hasn't been considered ... I know that 540RPM is a tad
fast for my Valley Mill, though ...
And the takeaway message on the Hop Clock:
> If this is right (and it's just a guess a
> far as the factor goes) then 1hr at boiling
> is equivalent to 9 hours at 80C or 3+ days
> at 60C, or a month at 40C or most of a year
> at 20C.
See, I knew that if I kept asking the question in different ways, I'd pry
out an answer ... I think that this confirms what both Ray Daniels and I
were thinking - Immersion chiller in the kettle to knock down the high heat
out of the wort, and the CFC to get it where you want for pitching. That
solves the question of what to do with the other half of the roll of Cu
tubing from the HERMS coil ...
Thanks!
Mark in Kalamazoo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:57:29 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition
For those scheduling other regional competitions or who want to judge,
steward or enter the BUZZ OFF Homebrew Competition, please take note
that this competition will be held on Saturday, June 1st, at the Iron
Hill Restaurant and Brewery in West Chester, PA. As has been the
custom, the BUZZ OFF will be an MCAB V qualifying event. More
information and logistics will be posted at a later date and on the BUZZ
web site.
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:11:13 -0500
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DBLewis@LewisDevelopment.com>
Subject: RE: FWH and boilovers
Steve and Glenn wrote...
> >But what I /have/ noticed is that my FWH brews, foaming and boil over have
> >been reduced. Boiling is less explosive and the foam is only a thin cover
> >which is easily broken.
<snip>
> Absolutely - sweet wort is much more likely to boilover than the same wort
> shortly after hops have been added, with obvious implications for FHW.
> Someone on this digest suggested years ago adding some of the hops early to
> prevent boilovers.
In the book "The Practical Brewer" http://www.mbaa.com/publication/pubtx.html
it is recommended that 10% of the bittering hop charge be added to the first
runnings to prevent boilover. I recall thinking that it was just adding
nucleation sites for the boil so that no large bubbles would form. (Like
adding boiling chips to nasty boiling experiments in chemistry class.)
No mention is made (that I can recall) about the benefits of FWH. However,
I have read in this digest that FWH with harsh bittering hops can lead
to less than desirable aroma in the finished beer, so be careful what
you're throwing in. Given that this book is written for the large mega-swill
brewers, there isn't much bitterness to begin with and even less aroma,
so I suppose that FWH wouldn't be much of a concern for them.
Dennis Lewis
[175.3mi, 113.3] Apparent Rennerian (aka Warren, Ohio)
In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength.
In water there is bacteria. --German Proverb
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:33:46 -0800
From: Steve Casselman <sc@vcc.com>
Subject: Dump Gump Attention: All AHA members
I've left a long message about dumping Gump (Rob Moline) from the AHA board of
advisors. I don't believe that he should be representing anyone and I'd like
your help to get him off the board.
http://www.beertown.org/discus/messages/4/132.html?1012526816
Go find out what kind of person represents you...
Rob had dumped no too many people now it is time to Dump Gump....
Thanks for your help..
Steve Casselman
>From the beginning of my message
Dump Gump.
Fellow members of the AHA, I need your help.
My name is Steve Casselman and I am currently the Chairman of the Board of
Advisors
for the AHA. You may also know me from my work as Chairman of the BJCP
Sub-committee
on styles that resulted in the current BJCP Style Guide. I have worked with
many
people over the years and I think most of them will agree that I'm fair and
ethical
and usually a non-critical, helpful person. However I have run up against a
problem
where I need your help.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:40:35 -0800
From: "Doug L." <blackshp@sunshinecable.com>
Subject: Fw: historical beer /yeast
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Doug L.
To: homebrew
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:10 AM
Subject: historical beer /yeast
Dose anyone out there know HOW DID THE BREWERIES,{from before
pasteurization-pure liquid yeast}ACTIVATE THERE BEER.-We don't dare use
anything but a pure strained,from whitelabs or WYeast to make our brew for
fear of contaminating organisms spoiling our beer.This makes perfect since
to me.-I know that lambic is made by open fermentation/air born yeast and
whatever else finds its way in there.THAT'S NOT MY QUESTION.I'm trying to
find out how breweries from relatively resent times,say from the time IPA's
were brewed for those guys in India.Or the miners from the gold rush
days.All those hundreds of breweries,if not thousands of breweries needed
yeast.WHERE DID THEY GET THERE YEAST?----and once they did have some HOW
DID THEY KEEP IT HEALTHY?-we know as brewers that you can only reuse the
slurry a few times.Whitelabs suggests six to ten times before terfing that
yeast and starting with fresh stuff.-Personally I only reuse it a couple
times before starting with a fresh batch.---I think its fare to say these
old breweries made good beer.So,how did they do it?Did they get a starter
going by open air fermentation? I have made a starter this way and I'm
currently brewing with it.The beer's not bottled yet,but it has no off
flavors and my starter has performed like any pure liquid yeast I've ever
used.OG-1040-eight days latter-1006. ANYWAY-if you know or have some idea
how these old brewers did there thing I'd really like to hear about
it.......THANKS...Doug
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:02:20 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: FWH & boilover
Steve A wote:
>>But what I /have/ noticed is that my FWH brews, foaming and boil over have
>>been reduced.
>My hunch is that the hops phenolics (which are much more likely to bind to
>proteins) form enough break to prevent the proteins from participating in
>boiler foam. Hops have a *lot* of phenolic material compared to malt - but
>most is retained in the break. The protein is responsible for the foam.
Thanks for the info. This is what I thought. Especially since when I
inspect the boil, the particles rolling in it look different. It's hard to
pull them out and inspect them properly, but I do find what looks to be hop
particles covered in brown/green slime.
My biggest question is that why hasn't this been noticed by others and why
is the advice to "add hops only after your wort is boiling" still
persisting? I know some doubt the claims of smoother and stronger flavor
through FWH saying that FWH has no effect in these aspects. Therefore, why
not add them before the boil and avoid a boilover if there is no net effect
on flavor?
Maybe we're talking about the difference between isomerizations at boiling
vs. isomerizations at temperatures below boiling. Maybe the oils extracted
below boiling temperatures isomerize differently or not at all during
boiling. But then wouldn't that effect flavor, aroma or bitterness,
spoiling the above assertion that there is no difference? Ponderous... *&^#
! ponderous! ;-)
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who harbor them." - President G. W. Bush
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3854, 02/01/02
*************************************
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