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HOMEBREW Digest #3753
HOMEBREW Digest #3753 Fri 05 October 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
***************************************************************
THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:
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Contents:
HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status (Pat Babcock)
Re: Freezing Wort ("Braam Greyling")
First brew. program request ("Gerard Goossens")
Food Grade Washer Alternative ("Mark Tumarkin")
Freezing wort ("Micah Millspaw")
Homebrew Pictures? (Alexandre Enkerli)
Sweet potatos? ("Donald D. Lake")
Cider - One More Data Point (grayling)
Stephen's off-flavors (Bill Frazier)
first runnings....and final amount of wort...question (leavitdg)
Priming with corn sugar ("Tom Williams")
Freezing Wort (Roy Roberts)
Re: Nothing Imortant (Jim Clement)
Old Ale Recipe ("Bissell, Todd S")
Re: water question (Jeff Renner)
back to school ("Joseph Marsh")
Re: Himsbrew's Water Question (John Palmer)
intermediate advice; racking ("Frank Tutzauer")
Kegging ("D Perry")
Orval culture -- what is this yeasty beastie? ("John Biggins")
4WD/ undermodified malts./Budvar ("Stephen Alexander")
Using a camp Chef indoors (Pet Rabbits & CO problems?) ("Gary Smith")
Re: 4WD/ undermodified malts./Budvar (Joel Plutchak)
...water loss during boil (thager)
*
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Community Red Cross Fund Status
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
After a trip to the PO Box, The HBD Community Red Cross Fund
stands at $625. Excellent! We may make it to $1000 yet!
Once again, if you wish to donate to the Red Cross and would
like to have your donation go twice as far, please donate
through the Match Fund. If received in time for me to postmark
the entire fund by 10/15 (I will probably mail the check 10/13
to ensure it receives the prescribed postmark) these funds will
receive a match. If received after, I will try to identify other
oppportunities to have the funds matched (there are still
several public matches in my area), but will forward them to the
Red Cross regardless.
- --
-
God bless America!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
============ Reprinted from HBD #3710 ==============
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Tee-Shirt Contest!
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
No, no - this is NOT an opportunity to douse tee-shirt clad
beauties with water.
As you (may or may not) know, the HBD has been getting our
merchandising act s-l-o-w-l-y together. So far, we've managed to
get button production under way in support of the many
conventions, competitions and conferences we HBDers go to, and
at which we pass each other like so many ships in the night,
having no way to recognize each other...
Our next sally into the battle of marketing is tee shirts! One
problem: what goes on it?! That brings us to the HBD Tee-Shirt
Contest! Here's an opportunity to stew your creative juices, let
them congeal in technicolor, and spew 'em onto the chest (or
back) of HBD members everywhere!
We're looking to have designs for the HBD Tee-Shirt created by
those who know the HBD best: you. So create your artwork, render
it to gif or jpeg format, and send it to teeshirt@hbd.org. We'll
publish the pic onto the HBD website, and provide voting buttons
so that site visitors can vote for the 2002 HBD Tee-Shirt
design. The design netting the highest votes by contest deadline
goes to production, with attribution to the winner! The winner
will also receive a free shirt bearing their design, plus a HBD
button containing their name and Chief Clothier as the second
line. Their photo and design will also appear on the HBD
website.
Legal mumbo-jumbo:
All designs, whether winning or not, become the sole property of
HBD.ORG to use or disposition as they see fit. Contest is open
to anyone wishing to submit a design. HBD.ORG reserves the right
to not publicly display any design deemed obscene, in poor
taste, or counter to the HBD.ORG philosophy without notification
to the submitter. Designs must not contain copyrighted or
trademarked images, unless copyright or trademarked by HBD.ORG.
Winning design may be rendered or modified suitably for silk
screening and/or for display on the HBD.ORG website.
Contest begins with publication of this notice. Contest is
expected to complete 10/15/01. See http://hbd.org for details as
they are developed.
All proceeds generated through HBD merchandise are used to
recoup the cost of said merchandise and the cost of maintaining
the HBD.ORG presence on the internet.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:44:28 +0200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling@azoteq.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing Wort
Dave wrote:
>>>
I was wondering if you can freeze wort. I am gonna prepare some
quart
jars of unfermented wort so that I can use them for propagating
yeast.
<<<
Dave,
I dont freeze the wort, I put some boiling wort in a cleaned airtight
jar (like an old mayonaisse jar) and let it cool down. When it cools
down the wort is sterile inside the jar and it is sealed. I then keep it
in the fridge. I think a lot of guys do this.
Regards
Braam Greyling
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd
Tel +27 21 8630033 Fax +27 21 8631512
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:52:35 +0200
From: "Gerard Goossens" <Gerard-g@hotpop.com>
Subject: First brew. program request
Hello fellow brewers.
I have made my first brew and will bottle it this evening.
I am looking for a easy program for making beer labels.
Where can i download or buy such programs. For my next brew i have
downloaded catsmeow to make a selection. After downloading my head began to
spin because of the many recipies. Can someone point me to a recipy that is
not to hard to make for a beginning home brewer.
Best regards,
Gerard Goossens
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 06:59:25 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Food Grade Washer Alternative
Bill Dubas wrote:
"I'm thinking that I need to switch to a flat washer to get a good seal.
However, I'm having trouble locating rubber flat washers in the size I need
that are specified as food-grade. Usually it's not even specified whether
they are or not. How important is it for these rubber washers to be
food-grade? I imagine that a non-food-grade washer would introduce unwanted
flavors and odors, or maybe worse. Are there any other options that I may
be overlooking?"
Wayne Smith, one of the members of my brew club, was reworking his system
recently and was dealing with a similar problem. He found a silicon sealant at
the auto parts store. He contacted the manufacturer and talked to one of their
engineers. He was told that even though it is not listed as food grade, the
Permatex RTV high temperature silcone that is available in automobile parts
stores is inert and completely food grade once it is cured (24 hours). It is
the exact same thing as the sealant that complies with all regulations set for
food grade silicone only they don't list it on the packaging. So you might
consider this as a cheap and easily available option for your brew equipment.
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 06:54:47 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa@silganmfg.com>
Subject: Freezing wort
>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:32:00 -0700
>From: "D Perry" <daperry75@home.com>
>Subject: Freezing Wort
>
>I was wondering if you can freeze wort. I am gonna prepare some quart jars
>of unfermented wort so that I can use them for propagating yeast.
I typically collect a gallon of wort out of each brew and reserve that to
the freezer for later use in krausen. This works well in making up for
fermentation and racking losses, so that I get a full volume batch (every
drop counts ! )
I use polypropylene (sp) cubitainer, like some BP's use for to go beer.
I have also used plastic milk jugs. All with no problems. The wort goes
in to the jug boiling and is rapidly frozen. I later thaw and reboil the wort
as needed, 15 min. or so.
Micah Millspaw -brewer at large
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:59:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli@indiana.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Pictures?
Hello all!
Following up on Jim Clement's post, I was wondering if anyone had a good
source for pictures and/or videos of homebrewing. Things that would help
include images of highly flocculating yeast in a carboy, yeast washing,
yeast starter, mash thickness, runoff flow-rate, full equipment setup,
beer clarity, bacterial infection, etc.
Thanks!
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:19:27 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake@gdi.net>
Subject: Sweet potatos?
Rather than repeat my pumpkin ale trials & tribulations, I saw where
someone brewed a beer using sweet potatos. Does anyone have any
experience with brewing with sweet potatos that they would share?
I also wonder if beer made with sweet potato takes as long to mature and
smooth out as the pumpkin ale does?
I worked with a woman many years ago that made sweet potato pie for the
holidays. To me it tasted just like pumpkin pie, but that was probably
due to the spices. Here's the story that peaked my interest:
http://www.xpresssites.com/lee/bismarck/xpspecialsections/
diningandentertainment/story_11130.asp
Don
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:11:41 -0400
From: grayling@provide.net
Subject: Cider - One More Data Point
Last year I attended a cider pressing at a small apple
orchard hosted by the Prison City Brewers (Jackson, MI).
If my memory is correct, we pressed seven different
varieties that night each in a single variety pressing. All
of the pressings came in with a gravity of 1.045. Some
of the varieties were common (Red and Golden Delicious),
and some were "antique" (Wolf River). My resulting blend
was a mix of Red and Yellow Delicious, Wolf River, and
Johnathan and Northern Spy (to the best of my memory).
Hope this helps...
Cheers!
Jim Suchy
Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
Westland, MI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:35:13 -0500
From: Bill Frazier <billfrazier@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Stephen's off-flavors
Stephen mentions off-flavors in beer racked to a secondary, "I've made two
batches which ended up with off flavors. So I've gone back to single primary
fermentation and kegging after one week. I leave the burped keg at room temp
for conditioning for a further week, then gas it up in the fridge."
Stephen, I guess you are brewing ales. I think you, and a lot of other new
brewers, are too quick to rack off the primary yeast. There is no set time
to do this~depends on yeast type, yeast amount, grain bill, fermentation
temperature, etc., etc., etc. I suggest you leave the new beer on the
primary yeast until you have determined that the specific gravity is no
longer falling. Yeast does wonderful things to beer if allowed to remain
in contact until the process is complete.
"The reason I shy away from the secondary fermenter is I'm told that when the
primary fermentation is more or less finished, the beer is very susceptible
to oxidisation and infection. Putting it straight into a sanitized keg and
burping seems to be the safe way out."
True, but there is no difference in racking to a secondary or a keg. The
racking process is the same. Just be sure all equipment is
sanitized. Don't splash the beer when racking. Fill your secondary
fermenter up to the top to minimize air contact. Keep the beer
cool. Don't be in a hurry to rack off the secondary. Let the beer rest
until it begins to clear. This might take two to three weeks. Then rack
to your keg and add CO2.
New beer can have off flavors. These may be the byproducts of fermentation
and given time they will fade.
Good luck!
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas, USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:11:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg@plattsburgh.edu
Subject: first runnings....and final amount of wort...question
I think a lot about my "first runnings", that is, the first bit of sweet
wort that emminates forth out of the lauter-tun after recirculating and
when beginning my sparge...(incidentally, a VERY happy time for me)..
My usual grain bill is about 8-10 lb of grain, and my first
runnings are anywhere from 1.06 to 1.08 typically...sometimes a bit
higherwith either more grain , or a better conversion,..sometimes a bit
lower due to less grain, or less complete conversion...
Anyway, yesterday I decided to experiment with a whole lot more grain,
...23 lbs!..., and found that my first runnings were 1.12. Well, now,
here is the question: that is high (I brewed a Wee Heavy), but I had
actually thought that it would be higher...yet...as I had collected
the usual amount (6-7 gallons) I noticed that the gravity was still
over 1.04! so I kept collecting...almost 9 gallons of wort...then had
to have a real long (3 hour) boil so as to get it all in a 6 gallon
carboy. The question is: when you use more
grain...is it a fact that the first runnings may not go as high...
but that
you get MUCH more staying power in your run-off..ir you get much more
than when using less grain?
It is perhaps self evident...but I had thought that I'd get real concen-
trated wort, but that it would run our by 6-7 gallons...and it held
out strong well beyond that...
Yeast was Wyeast Scottish (3rd use) along with WhiteLabs English Dry (2nd
use)...
...Darrell
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:46:16 -0400
From: "Tom Williams" <williams2353@hotmail.com>
Subject: Priming with corn sugar
Chris Hatton is having trouble priming with corn sugar and DME.
Chris, I had a similar experience in my earlier batches, and settled on DME
for priming. The bottle sediment doesn't bother me, and I am not convinced
it is any higher with DME than with corn sugar for a particular yeast and
wort recipe.
I would recommend you search the HBD archives for an article (maybe 2)
called "More Sugar" by Dave Draper, perhaps in 1995. I found it very
helpful in getting the carbonation level right. You can use his method
regardless which priming sugar you use.
Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roy Roberts <psilosome@yahoo.com>
Subject: Freezing Wort
> I was wondering if you can freeze wort. I am gonna prepare some quart
> jars of unfermented wort so that I can use them for propagating yeast.
Sure, I do it all the time and it works great. I usually don't bother
making extra wort - after racking from my kettle after the boil, I pour
the rest of the liquid (plus unavoidably some break material) through a
coffee filter to clean it up. If you do this be sure and re-boil the
wort before pitching your yeast.
Roy
NYC
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:32:10 -0400
From: Jim Clement <jclement@silverbacktech.com>
Subject: Re: Nothing Imortant
Oh yeah. The website with the pix:
http://jclement.home.att.net/pumpkin.html .
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:39:17 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell@spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Old Ale Recipe
Hi all,
I have a bunch of older ingredients that I want to use up, so have been
playing around with ProMash, and came up with the following. And comments
and critiques (esp. in regards to the hops) would be greatly appreciated...!
===========================
ProMash Recipe Printout
Recipe : Butt-Ugly Olde Ale
Recipe Specifics
- ----------------
Batch Size (GAL): 5.00 Wort Size (GAL): 5.00
Total Extract (LBS): 10.00
Anticipated OG: 1.078 Plato: 18.86
Anticipated SRM: 62.7
Anticipated IBU: 71.4
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Extract
SRM
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
70.0 7.00 lbs. Traditional Dark Extract America 1.064
35
10.0 1.00 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.005
120
10.0 1.00 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.004
350
10.0 1.00 lbs. Black Roasted Barley America 1.004
450
Extract represented as SG.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil
Time
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
1.00 oz. Eroica Pellet 9.00 38.9 60 min.
1.00 oz. Fuggle Pellet 3.90 8.6 30 min.
1.00 oz. Galena Pellet 12.00 13.8 15 min.
1.00 oz. East Kent Goldings Pellet 6.70 5.8 10 min.
1.00 oz. Whitbred Goldings (UK-WGV) Pellet 6.00 4.3 5 min.
Extras
Amount Name Type Time
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 20 Min.(boil)
Yeast
- -----
White Labs WLP002 English Ale
===================================
I also have some Black Treacle around. What would be the pros and cons of
adding some to this already heavy (and heavy-handed!) British-style Old
Ale...? Thanks!
Cheers!
Todd Bissell
Imperial Beach, CA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:52:02 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: water question
Himsbrew@aol.com of Green Bay asks:
>is just a bad memory from high school!
>I have a private well at home(Green Bay Wi)
>so I haven't had the $ to get it tested.
>my water goes thru a home water softner,
>then is filtered thru a sink filter
>(culligan type )with two filter cartriges.
>Now my question, is this ok to brew with?
>I am about to start all-grain brewing,
>and I don't want to screw it up!!
Don't use the softened water - it will be high in sodium. The
straight water will probably be good, although it may be high in
iron. Do you get iron stains with unsoftened water?
Here are some generalizations:
Your water softener company ought to be able to tall you at least how
hard the water is. Then if it is hard (and I suppose it is or you
wouldn't use a softener), does it leave a lime sediment when you boil
it? If it does then it is temporary hardness, which means it has
high alkalinity. This means that for pale beers, you should boil and
decant first. For dark beers, it's good as is.
If it doesn't leave a sediment upon boiling, then it is probably
permanent hardness (low alkalinity). This is good for pale beers as
is.
I would think that the softener company ought to be able to give you
more detailed analysis. You would like to know the calcium and
alkalinity for starters.
Just a bit north-west of Green Bay in Bonduel is a tiny microbrewery
called Slab City Brewery. Their water may be similar, and perhaps
the owner/brewer can give you some hints.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 11:08:54 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62@hotmail.com>
Subject: back to school
Stephen Dunn asks about mid level brewing questions...
When you rack from your primary directly to keg you are simply useing your
keg as a secondary fermenter. Personally unless I'm trying for a very light
flavored/colored beer I don't use a secondary at all. 3 weeks on the trub
isn't going to give you any off flavors and should give you nicely cleared
beer. When you tap the keg give it a little extra pressure and the bit of
sediment around the pick up tube will be sucked out with the first glass.
Then bleed off the extra pressure and tap normally. You'll have fine beer.
My brewing bible is Al Korzonas' book "Hombrewing Vol I". It's a very
readable text and gives you good overview of most subjects having to do with
brewing. The worst thing I've heard anybody say about the book is that he
didn't leave anything for VOl. II. (Not really true because Vol I is based
on extracts and barely touches on grains.) But if you want info on water,
hops, equipment, technique etc. it's hard to go wrong with Al's advice.
BTW he has a wed page under his name take a look.
Good brewing,
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:05:58 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Himsbrew's Water Question
Himsbrew asks about whether his treated well water would be good for
all-grain brewing.
Here is an all-grain brewing rule of thumb: In general, Treated water (via
a salt-based water softener) is not recommended for all grain brewing due
to the lack of calcium and high levels of sodium.
In this case, since the well is in Green Bay WI, and pulls from the Lake
Michigan aquifer, I would use the well water straight.
It would be good to get the water tested though so that you know exactly
what mineral levels you are typically brewing with.
John Palmer
Monrovia, CA
homepage
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:49:08 -0400
From: "Frank Tutzauer" <comfrank@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: intermediate advice; racking
Stephen from Sydney has come back to the fold:
>The point of my writing is - as a novice to the industry, I've struggled to
>find intermediate advice on the brewing process. You either find "Making
>your first brew" or it's straight into "full grain brewing". So I'm hoping
>to see more information posted on general procedures. Many seasoned brewers
>will probably find these sorts of requests painfully basic, but everyone
has
>to start at the beginning.
You'll gets lots of help here. Even though this forum is loaded with very
seasoned and sophisticated brewers, they're always willing to help a novice
or intermediate brewer.
>One area I find awkward is racking into a secondary container. ... The
>reason I shy away from the secondary fermenter is I'm told that when the
>primary fermentation is more or less finished, the beer is very susceptible
>to oxidisation and infection.
Actually, the beer is *less* susceptible to infection (because the pH has
dropped, and the alcohol content has risen). That doesn't mean you are free
from all risk of infection, but you are at less risk than before
fermentation. Still, sanitize everything that touches your beer. You are
right, though, that finished beer is more susceptible to adverse affects
from
oxidation.
The way you are doing it is fine (primary, then straight to keg), but if you
want to rack for some reason (clarification, freeing up your primary
fermenter, high gravity brew, whatever), that's fine too, as long as you
rack
quietly and keep everything sanitary.
--frank in Buffalo (Jeff R., you finally got me to put my location!)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:56:48 -0700
From: "D Perry" <daperry75@home.com>
Subject: Kegging
When you keg, does the keg have to be completely full? The reason I ask is
I would like to bottle some for competitions and that would leave some space
in the keg. Either that or are counter-pressure filled bottles legal in
competitions?
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:17:46
From: "John Biggins" <bignz721@hotmail.com>
Subject: Orval culture -- what is this yeasty beastie?
I'm culturing up some dregs of an Orval clone a friend gave me, and on one
of my culture plates I got a few distinct dark green colonies. Under the
microscope, these seem to be regular yeast (appropriate size & budding).
Since I'm not too familiar w/ the classification, does this dark green yeast
fit into any useful strains?
My email: jbbiggins@pharmacy.wisc.edu
- ---------------
John B. Biggins
Cornell University
Weill Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Student -- Dept. of Pharmacology
Laboratory for Biosynthetic Chemistry
School of Pharmacy; Pharmaceutical Sciences Division
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Lab: (608)232-3869
http://www.ski.edu/thorson
http://www.pharmacy.wisc.edu
"Science like Nature, must also be tamed
With a view towards its preservation.
Given the same state of integrity
It will surly serve us well."
-- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:01:56 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@att.net>
Subject: 4WD/ undermodified malts./Budvar
Joel Plutchak unthinkingly blurts ...
> Dunno where you live, Steve, but in places that have
>a recognizable winter a 4x4 is often quite useful on city
>streets.
I've driven over 550k miles on business in the past 15 years. Nearly all
between Buffalo, thru to Detroit. My home turf averages 50 inches of snow
compared to your Urbana 30. The two times I've wanted 4WD were at the end
of my driveway. 4WD is great in it's element, but in the city it's value is
emotional. Similar to the way inexperienced brewers choose decoction for
well-modified malts.
- --- back to beer please ---
>I read that article years ago and wasn't convinced by
>the data back then, either. Where were the statistically
>significant data points?
No one has claimed statistically significant data Joel, but unlike you,
Louis Bonham and I and others have fairly tried the comparison and know a
little about what we're saying. Where are your statistically significant
data that decoction of overmodified malts causes the great malty flavors
you describe ? It doesn't - that's a myth.
I've performed several same recipe, same temps, step vs decoction mashes
using Durst and DWC malts and I don't see *major* advantage when using
modern malts. Decoction certainly does NOT make a night and day difference
in the resulting beer. Yeast selection and kreusening make bigger
difference IMO.
>I'd be interested to hear what judicious malts can be used
>to get that great, deep, decocted malt flavor I've tasted in
>beer from breweries like Victory [...]
First, Victory's malt isn't overmodified so my comments about decocting
overmodified malts don't apply to your example. Second, the great malty
Victory flavor you attribute to decoctions also comes through in Victory
HopDevil (undecocted) with it's huge malty flavor rivaling the IBUs.
Jim Busch, a founder of Victory and developer of some of their beers says in
HBD#2862 that they could not achieve the flavor profiles desired even using
decoction and other methods. He attributes flavor advantage to directly
imported Weyermann malts (Weyermann does custom maltings). In #3189 Jim
spills the beans about malt modification when he writes ..., "15P Maerzen
biers, [...].all are beers that benefit from decoction mashing of imported
malts with lower than typical modification".
>If I could do that
>with my standard infusion mash I'd jump on it. Recipes, I
>want recipes! Name names! Be specific!
Why not make a one of those super malty beers that you think comes from
decocting overmodified malts and then try the exact same with a step mash
and then blind taste (or better yet triangle test) the results as Louis and
I have. If you can taste any difference above the normal HBing variables
you'll recognize that a little extra melanoidin or munich will mask it
Making a pils with a durst or weissheimer with a Kolbach over 40 by
decoction is nearly a waste of time. It impacts color more than flavor.
I've had variable results with flavor diffs using high percentages of
Continental munich malt - but this could easily reflect the differences in
modification of that malt or other factors. The magnitude of the diffs were
not extreme.
>and from homebrewers who
>don't toe the Lewis line on decoction.
Funny that rags like Brauwelt and hacks like Kunze toe this line too !
Kunze for example writes that infusion mashes deficiencies "can to a large
extent be compensated for by the use of special malts and more colored malts
[munich malt - sja]". Kunze earlier refers to husk extract, melanoidin
formation and DMS reduction as the primary flavor diffs. Notes about the
flavor differences being 'insignificant' appear in a Brauwelt '86 article.
Feel free to brew as you please Joel, but until you perform some honest
decoction tests with controls and blind tastings (and a few 100k mi more in
some real snow) you're lacking the experience to know.
====
Dave Harsh writes ...
>You don't need to decoct in order to get good conversion from the malt,
>but the other flavor characteristics from decocting are very difficult
>to get without the decoction process.
...
>but if you are brewing a Salvator or Celebrator - sorry - you
>need to decoct.
Dave - I find your comments confused and confusing. I said nothing of
conversion ('conversion' isn't 'modification'!). I did say that decocting
overmodified malts was nearly useless. Unless you claim that Celebrator
and Salvator are made by decocting overmodified malts I don't see your
point.
>And lets be honest, if energy and money were our primary concerns, we'd
>be buying commercial beers instead of brewing ourselves.
I agree - but let's begin with some honesty a step earlier and admit that
energy and money were never at issue. I've regularly been an advocate of
brewing only the best beer you can despite such costs, but I won't spend
extra money or time based on hearsay only to get essentially similar
results - that is just brewing by superstition.
I'd like to hear about your experiments that show that there really is a
significant flavor difference, but I'm still awaiting your theoretical
arguments about why cornies are such awful fermenters as you promised me
months ago. I've got some prelim results that same wort fermented in 1:1
carboys vs 2:1 cornies is not distinguishable in triangle tests !
====
Budvar modification level -
I mentioned that the Hartong rating, from Miller on the St.Pat website
might be a typo, but I think the issue is that the number listed is the
"Hartong VK 45C %" and not the adjusted Hartong. 35% means a thin warm
(45C) mash produced 35% of extract as an EBC fine grind mash extract.
That's low-normal. Durst pills is rated at 35-40% Hartong VK 45C for
example.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:06:10 -0500
From: "Gary Smith" <mandolinist@interlync.com>
Subject: Using a camp Chef indoors (Pet Rabbits & CO problems?)
Greetings,
Winter is coming on & I'm going to have to move the RIMS beast
into the basement. There's no outlet for 220 down there, the only
220 is to the AC so I can't convert the rims to all electric & I'm
going to have to use propane & my Camp Chef which does burn
very cleanly with no sooting on the boil kettle. I can still use the
110 for the rims of course but my concern is carbon monoxide
levels if I do this.
My girlfriend has some pet rabbits at the other end of the
basement. I'm wondering if they're going to have any problems from
CO. People use gas stoves & ranges all winter with no problems
but furnaces & water heaters are vented.
Of course no one could guarantee there won't be a problem with
using the camp chef indoors but I was wondering if anyone has
done this in the winter when the windows are closed & with pets in
the basement?
I do have a CO detector on the first level which I can bring
downstairs when I brew but it would be good to know if people have
used camp chef's in the basement without any problems.
The garage is out of the question as there's no water there & it's
detached from the house. Chicago weather is pretty nasty in
January and doing it in this garage is asking for problems.
Thanks,
Gary
mandolinist@YourPanties.interlync.com
Important: You must remove "YourPanties". to reply
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:22:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: 4WD/ undermodified malts./Budvar
Steve Alexander blurted:
>4WD is great in it's element...
> My home turf averages 50 inches of snow compared to your Urbana 30.
Just to clarify for the masses, I neither live in Urbana,
own a 4WD vehicle, nor feel that if I did spend 100% of my time
in Urbana I'd need a 4WD vehicle. That those assumptions were
made are illustrative of my whole issue with the analogy to
decoction. E.g., terrain, temperature, city budget and road
maintenance, precipitation other than snow, etc., are factors
that were obviously not taken into account. To put it another
way, the model and data points were not sufficient to support
the conclusion. I would no more state "4WD is useless in any
city" than I would "4WD is necessary in all cities."
>No one has claimed statistically significant data Joel, but unlike you,
>Louis Bonham and I and others have fairly tried the comparison and know a
>little about what we're saying.
And you've assumed (again) I haven't tried a range of
malts and techniques exactly why? Because I didn't publish
"data" in a defunct magazine?
>In #3189 Jim spills the beans about malt modification when he writes ...,
>"15P Maerzen biers, [...].all are beers that benefit from decoction
>mashing of imported malts with lower than typical modification".
Yup, Victory decocts. And they do it when *they* know
it makes a difference, not when you or Lewis says so. I
may have missed the part in your original assertion where
you specified overmodified malt, decocting ales like HopDevil,
etc., so perhaps am guilty of bringing the wider perspective
(i.e., "decoction is a waste of time and effort") into the
discussion inappropriately. So it goes.
Bottom line: if Victory decocts some of their lagers
it's good enough for me.
I said:
>If I could do that with my standard infusion mash I'd jump on it.
>Recipes, I want recipes! Name names! Be specific!
...and I'm still waiting. Instead of viewing every
question or opinion as a personal attack why not take
a more constructive approach? I'll make it easy by being
very specific: what blend of grain and infusion mashing
will give me a deeply malty doppelbock? (And would it be
indistinguishable from the same blend of grains subjected
to a decoction mash schedule?) Ditto for a Maibock. I'm
about to buy a bunch of malt and have the opportunity to
get some Weyermann, so this is a very pertinent (and time-
critical) issue for me.
Joel Plutchak
Relaxed and not worrying in an East-central Illinois town
that isn't Urbana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:12:25 -0700
From: thager@hcsd.k12.ca.us
Subject: ...water loss during boil
Brian, you write:
"First, A few weeks ago I was touring a small brewery in the area and was
discussing with the brewmaster water loss during the boil. I've never
understood how it is that commercial breweries can keep their water losses
relatively low compared to homebrewers. On my way home I was thinking that
maybe the tube that leads up to the ceiling and out of the roof of the
building may have something to do with this. Perhaps, as the steam rises up
the tube, some of it cools on its way up and condenses on the sides of the
tube and falls back into the wort."
This issue has been a big wondering in my mind for years. Especially when
you read G.Fix Brewing Techniques where he says that "thermal loading" -
which he equates to boiling too hard (or too long) - causes off flavors. And
there is even one sentence that says that he found off flavors that are
commonly thought to be produced by other issues were indeed caused by this
"thermal loading"... Take it for what it is worth... many people on the HBD
have discounted his assertions, but I have never seen any hard data on this
issue either way. Fix states that a good indicator of thermal loading is
evaporation rate. 10% is ideal - enough to evaporate the bad stuff but not
too much to cause excessive "thermal loading" in his mind. He claims the
high end of evaporation rate is 15% - you should never go higher than this.
Evaporation as an indicator of "thermal loading" is flawed in my mind and
seems meaningless unless you are looking at one system over time. To compare
the evaporation on two different systems and come to conclusions about the
thermal loading present would be highly questionable. For example, one open
kettle with a very low boil and low volume would surely have a much greater
evaporation rate than a very large covered kettle with a very strong boil
and a high volume of wort.
I was concerned when I read his assertions on thermal loading. In my conv.
keg kettle and propane burner I can boil off about a gallon every half hour
if I turn it up full blast. So if I start off with 9 gallons, boil for 1.5
hours and evaporate 3 gallons, that a 33% evaporation rate!!! 3x the ideal
as Fix says and over double of what he says is the extreme. Do I make decent
beer this way? Yes. Could it be better? Of course. Are these super high
evaporation rates to blame. Who knows?
It is interesting because every reference other than Fix says to boil the
hell out of your wort and mentions nothing about "thermal loading". In all
the brewing books, a strong boil is recommended. Noonan even says that a
"violent" boil is highly beneficial. And there are many reasons to do so
(you can read the details in the literature). The short of it is that strong
boiling does two main things: 1. blow off the volatile components you don't
want in your beer and 2. bind the proteins and tannin materials into large
"hot break" particles that you also don't want in your beer. This are
mandatory if you want to make good beer. Fix is the ONLY one that I have
read that has mentioned anything about the detrimental effects of "thermal
loading" (although he states no real evidence as the basis for his claim as
I remember).
So the bottom line is that a good rolling boil producing a good hot break is
highly beneficial but... over-boiling *might* be detrimental to your final
product. As you pointed out, I have also been interested in the difference
between the hbers evaporation rate and the professionals.
I did brew at my local brewpub over the summer and was interested to see how
their kettle boiled and was designed. The kettle was a ss chamber totally
enclosed except for the manhole and the exhaust outlet. It was steam heated.
The brewer said that he has a hard time boiling hard enough and his
evaporation rates were pretty low, if I recall about 5-7%. The manhole was
left open during the boil. For the exhaust tube, most of kettles in
breweries that I have seen are designed in a similar manner- they have an
elbow right out of the kettle and a condensation chamber at the bottom of a
duct going up through the roof to vent... see diagram below:
fan to pull exhaust
| |
| |
| |_________
| _______ |
\ / ___| |___________________
\ / | |
| | | kettle |
| | | |
| |
to
collection
bucket
The evaporation travels up the ducting (horizontal tube is angled down) and
as it condenses on the duct it drains into the funnel and down the tube to a
bucket. He said depending on the atmospheric pressure for the day, he ether
runs the exhaust fan or doesn't, From what I remember when the atm pressure
is high he doesn't run the fan because with the fan on you get a lower boil
and with high atm pressure you also get a low boil. When the atm pressure is
low he can run the fan and still get a good boil.
His boil was not violent in any way like some books say - it was more of a
low-med roll. As far as I could tell by sticking my head in there and trying
to see the hot break (we didn't pull any out and take a look) it seemed like
there were fairly big chunks of hot break in the wort.
His beers are decent, nothing to brag about though so I am not relaying his
technique as something to shoot for but just as a data point of what goes on
in a fairly typical professional brewery. It is obvious that they have a
much more difficult time getting a violent boil than we do with our small
volumes and big burners. One thought that I did have from this experience is
that ALL brewery kettles (that I have seen) are mostly closed and vented
through a relatively small exhaust duct - i.e. all breweries do a mostly
covered boil. This is one reason why their evaporation rates are lower than
most hbers - most hbers do a completely open boil.
Another big factor is the volume of the wort related to the heating power.
Remember, the people who put these breweries together are usually business
people and sometimes have no brewing experience... they are worried about
$$$ and not much else. Therefore they are going to try to get away with
using the LEAST amount of energy possible to do an adequate job. That was
the case in the brewpub where I brewed, the brewer was constantly shaking
his head and complaining about the setup being designed by engineers and
businessmen and certain parts (like the steam heated kettle) were very
inadequate in practice.
Another thought is that most brewery kettles are enclosed vessels where a
large portion of the exhaust is condensed on the inside and runs back into
the wort. I wonder if some of what is in this condensation are beneficial
flavors/components that hbers are loosing when we evaporate so much. In my
setup with the converted keg, I really can't cover it and get the
condensation to run back in the wort but did come up with an idea that I
will try on my next brew. I picked up a old wok top at the thrift store for
a buck and am going to cut a hole in them middle of it - I might make it
about 1-2" in diameter. If I turn it upside down it will fit nicely as a
vented cover. I will then adjust my burner so that I do get a strong rolling
boil, but much of the evaporation will condense and run back into the wort
and will closely simulate what is happening in the big brewery kettles. The
trick will be to get a strong enough boil to get a good hot break but with
the cover keep my evaporation rates down to the 10-15% range. I don't know
if this will make a bit of difference and some might say that all this is
fretting over minutia, but many of us have stuck with this hobby just
because there is so much minutia to fret over!
Hope this helps!
Troy
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3753, 10/05/01
*************************************
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