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HOMEBREW Digest #3706
HOMEBREW Digest #3706 Sat 11 August 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
re: Foaming Keg Blues (John Schnupp)
Re: Re: Dry Hopping with pellets ("RJ")
marbles in the bowl ("Dr. Pivo")
sparge water distributor ("Alan McKay")
Fob (jal)
Various Beer Software Projects ("John Campbell")
Safe Sanitizer ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Re: Foaming Keg Blues (Jeff Renner)
Re: marbles in the keg (Jeff Renner)
Re: Diacetyl II (Jeff Renner)
re: foaming keg blues ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Keg Back Pressure ("Strom C. Thacker")
re: Foaming Keg Blues (Dan.Stedman)
lower temp in RIMS ("steve lane")
Diacetyl II ("D. Schultz")
Brussels Bier Circus ("matt dinges")
Food Network Special Today! "Follow That Beer" ("Donald D. Lake")
Re: Foaming Keg Blues ("David L. Potter")
Dry Hopping with pellets & marbles in the keg ("Dave & Joan King")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Foaming Keg Blues
From: Mike Lemons <ndcent@hotmail.com>
>Someone mentioned foaming and fobbing. Is "fob" a real word?
Straight from Webster's College Dictionary:
fob(1) (fob), n. 1. a watch pocket just below the waistline in trousers. 2. a
short chain or ribbon, usually with a medallion or similar ornament, attached
to a watch and worn hanging from a pocket. 3. the medallion or ornament
itself.
fob (2) (fob), v.t., fobbed, fobbing 1. Archaic. to cheat: deceive. 2. fob
off, a. to induce someone to take (something inferior); palm off. b. to put
(someone) off by deception or trickery.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:47:12 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup@metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Dry Hopping with pellets
"Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski@adelphia.net> wrote:
"I usually dry hop my APA with 1 oz. Cascades in a hop bag 2-3 days before
bottling. No weight, it submerges in a few hours.
I have noticed that a significant amount of the hops gets through the bag.
I also get the impression that the beer seems to carbonate to a higher level
than if I don't dry hop. I don't know if it is due to the hop particles
stimulating the yeast or to a minor infection. (Or maybe my imagination.)"
I've noticed the more "foaminess" too... I believe it may have to do with
increased nucleation sites (hop particles) in the brew.
I would doubt that it's an infection since the hops, if anything, drop the
pH even more... If you're using a muslin bag (with T-90's), try switching to
a tighter weave cotton drawstring bag that has been sanitized in boiling
water or vodka prior to adding the hops to it. You may also notice, that
the need for some type of weight is now necessary... Possible choices:
stainless steel rod or bearings, ceramic or glass marbles. I prefer the
marbles/bearings when working with a carboy's narrow neck, since they move
around enough so that removal is easiest.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:07:03 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: marbles in the bowl
It was stated:
> I have
> some marbles, but I do not know if they are food grade,
>
I have it on certain authority, that only the "cat eyes" are truly "food
grade".
I have tested this, and found this to be true...... but they tend to
chip the porcelain when they come out.
Dr. Pivo
P.S. I had some marbles... but I lost them, before they ever got
graded.
P.P.S. Almost approaching a serious answer. "marbles in a dry hop bag"
seems to be a technique that's been used as long as home brewers have
dry hopped, and I haven't heard any complaints yet......"marbles" made
out of baked clay (this may predate many readers) or the material
"marble" (as in rock) would not be a good idea.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:26:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay@ottawa.com>
Subject: sparge water distributor
I too am in the "I-dont-need-no-steenking-distributor" camp. ;-)
I guess if I ever went to RIMS I would want to use something, but
as it stands I just keep an inch or three of water on top and make
sure not to pour the sparge water in too briskly.
As long as you take care in pouring in the sparge water you are fine.
The danger comes when you pour too briskly and starge digging holes
into the grainbed. When I first got rid of my sprinkler system I
kept a very close eye on the top of the grainbed to determine just
how vigorously I could pour without causing holes in the bed. As
it turns out, the pour does not even have to be all that gentle if
you move your hand around as you are pouring.
cheers,
-Alan
- --
"Brewers make wort. Yeast makes beer."
- Dave Miller
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:46:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: jal@novia.net
Subject: Fob
Mike Lemons asks if "fob" is a real word. It's actualy two real words:
Fob -- (noun, akin to the dialectic German Fuppe, meaning pocket) a chain,
strap, or ribbon attached especially to a pocket watch.
Fob -- (verb transitive, from the Middle English fobben) to cheat or deceive.
Often follwed by the preposition "off." To offer something bogus as genuine: to
fob off forgeries on some unsuspecting soul.
What this has to do with beer or brewing, I do not know (unless one was fobbing
off spurious theories on innocent brewers).
Jim Larsen
Brewer and pedant
Omaha
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:38:49 -0500
From: "John Campbell" <johncampbell@home.com>
Subject: Various Beer Software Projects
Our club (Music City Brewers, Nashville TN http://musiccitybrewers.com)
would be willing to host a separate email list for beer software development
projects in general. If all interested parties will email me off list, I
will add your name to a group, and we can send a few emails back and forth
to determine what is what, level of interest etc. and make sure another list
has not already been started.
John Campbell
johncampbell@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:54:10 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: Safe Sanitizer
Mike Lemons wrote of Safe Sanitizer
>The problem is that I am not even sure that 80 proof gin kills anything.
>At five dollars for 750 ml, it is not that cheap. I would rather use 150
>proof ethanol, but I have never found any on sale for a reasonable
>price.
150 proof ethanol (70% abv) is the standard reccomendation when using
alcohol as it is the most effective concentration. I buy a quart of
Everclear (grain alcohol) at the local liquor store and dilute that to 70%
with water. For those of you contemplating using alcohol as a sanitizer,
shy away from any alcohol which is not meant for drinking (as if Everclear
ever was ;-) because it will either be denatured alcohol or isopropyl, both
of which are not natural to beer and may effect the flavor of your beer.
Use that for wiping down table surfaces, keg connectors, taps, etc...
If you want a slightly more effective sanitizer (especially good on
stainless surfaces) then add about 3-5% phosphoric acid. I'm not sure if
3-5% is the optimum concentration for phosphoric, because typically
hydrochloric or nitric acid is used in the lab - but these acids aren't
good for stainless steel's health. The addition of acid lowers the pH which
increases the effectiveness of the solution and broadens the range of what
it will kill. Plus, it's more "natural" to beer. Spray it on and just let
it evaporate. Long shelf life in a closed container. Great to use on
rubber stoppers, working surfaces, etc...
>I bought some hydrogen peroxide for pickling brass and it was on
>sale for 50 cents a pint. It seems to me that I could use this as a safe
>sanitizer as long as I didn't get it into finished beer or anything else
>that you want to protect from oxidation.
The pickling solution you made was probably 1 part H2O2 to 2 parts vinegar,
right? This is peracetic acid and is an effective sanitizer as well.
Again, the acetic acid in the vinegar lowers the pH just as in acid-alcohol.
This one is nice to use since the ingredients are readily available at the
supermarket or pharmacy. Commonly used in spray form, but only effective
for a short time after being mixed.
>I use iodophor for normal sanitation. I worry about getting it into
>small yeast starters. I feel that it might hurt the yeast. It also
>won't last in an airlock.
I'm with ya, Mike. My large flasks and small jugs are too big to fit in the
pressure cooker, so I've gotta sanitize them chemically. I always use
iodophor to do the job and if time does not allow for air drying, I use cool
boiled water for a rinse. I have never trusted iodophor residue even though
I know it is diluted when the vessel is filled and will have at worst, an
insignificant effect on flavor or yeast health.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:54:16 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Foaming Keg Blues
>Mike Lemons <ndcent@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Someone mentioned foaming and fobbing. Is "fob" a real word?
It isn't in the Random House Unabridged Dictionary of the English
Language, but is in Oxford English dictionary. It appears to be
British dialect that we've adopted, no doubt from pioneering
homebrewing authors having been British. Here is what the O.E.D. has
to say:
fob
fob fob, sb.3
a. Froth, foam; dial.
b. dial. (See quot. 1890.)
* 1838 in Holloway Provinc.
* 1886 in Elworthy W. Somerset Word-bk.
* 1890 Gloucestersh. Gloss., Fob, a little bunch or tuft, as of
wool, etc.
c. Soap-making. The scum or froth which rises to the top of the
semi-liquid soap during a certain process of manufacture.
* 1857 W. Miller Elem. Chem. III. vi. 1. 373 The fob is skimmed
off, and the semi-solid pasty mass of soap is transferred to the
frames.
* 1860 Ure's Dict. Arts (ed. 5) III. 714.
* 1884 A. Watt Soap-Making v. 47 A black foam or `fob' appears
on the surface, which only ceases when the materials are completely
saturated with alkali.
* 1904 Goodchild & Tweney Technol. & Sci. Dict; s.v. Fitting, A
solid crust or Fob of frothy soap.
Hence fob v.3, to froth or foam. 'fobbing vbl. sb.
* 1838 Holloway Provinc., Fob, to froth as beer does when
poured out quickly. E. Sussex.
* 1883 Hampsh. Gloss., Fob, to froth as beer.
* 1898 G. H. Hurst Soaps 229 The material may rise up in the
form of froth very considerably, this proceeding being known to
soap-makers as fobbing... It is this liability to fob that renders it
undesirable that a soap pan should be fully charged to start with.
* 1938 Thorpe's Dict. Appl. Chem. (ed. 4) II. 95/2 Some brewers
add only a small proportion of the hops as the copper is filling
up-they help to prevent `fobbing'.
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:11:16 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: marbles in the keg
"Stephen Fiete" <sfiete@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am dryhopping an ESB and need somthing to weigh down bag of hops. I have
>some marbles, but I do not know if they are food grade, or would create any
>problem if left in my keg for as long as the beer lasted.
Glass marbles, like any glass, should be so inert that there should
be no problem. Some people think you should not leave dry hops in a
keg for a long period. I've done it, though, and haven't noticed any
problem.
I note you say you have "some marbles." Does this mean you don't
have all your marbles?
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:26:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Diacetyl II
Gene Collins <gcollins@geotec.net> of Broken Arrow, OK wrote:
>About a week ago, I posted a question as to whether yeast would re-absorb
>diacetyl if it was chilled. No one has responded to the post, so I thought I
>would post it again to see if I could get any takers. Is this a retarded
>question or was it overlooked?
Perfectly good question, but I, for one, was one vacation. Glad you persisted.
While the conventional way of reducing diacetyl is with a higher
temperature diacetyl rest, I seem to remember from discussions here
several years ago that some German brewers actually do reduce the
temperature of a cold fermented beer to reduce diacetyl levels, or
perhaps it was that they just fermented it very cold the whole way,
like maybe 42F? A search of the archives may be useful
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/dothread.
Here is what George Fix wrote in Brewing Techniques
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html
:
"Diacetyl production and reduction are strongly influenced by
temperature, and the rates for both increase as temperature
increases. Thus, an ale fermented at 20 degrees C (68 degrees F)
typically has a higher diacetyl peak than, say, a lager fermented at
10 degrees C (50 degrees F). The rate of diacetyl reduction, however,
is much higher in the ale than in the lager, which is why most lager
brewers prefer to get diacetyl levels below 0.10-0.15 mg/L at the end
of the main fermentation. Some additional reduction occurs in cold
storage, but at a very slow rate. For this reason, some brewers raise
the temperature of a cold-fermented beer to 20 degrees C (68 degrees
F) for a brief period following the end of the main fermentation, a
practice that is usually called diacetyl rest.
"One alternative is the so-called Narziss fermentation. In this
procedure the first two-thirds of the fermentation is done at 8-10
degrees C (46-50 degrees F). During the final third of fermentation,
the temperature is allowed to increase to 20 degrees C (68 degrees
F), after which the beer is transferred to cold storage. Another
alternative is to add freshly fermenting wort (kraeusen) to
diacetyl-laden beer in cold storage."
Hope this helps.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:36:30 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew@compuserve.com>
Subject: re: foaming keg blues
Mike asked>>What happens when you have too much beer line?
Wait don't tell me. The beer foams right? Is there a way to tell the
difference between too-short beer foam and too-long beer foam?<<
Right, too long of lines and the beer foams. The way to tell the
difference is too long and the beer exits the faucet as foam already,
too short and the beer exits with too much force and foams when
it hits the drinking vessel.
At 22 lbs I'd expect that beer to balance and pour correctly with 10
feet of 3/16 ID hose. That is using 2.2 lb drop per foot of hose; some
people recommend using a "drop" figure of 3 lb/ft, then it would be a
7.3 ft hose.
Rather than starting to chop up your lines you can test this by cranking
up the pressure to around 28 to 30 lbs, if it pours better then the lines
are too long. But too long of time at that pressure and the beer will
overcarbonate; that is just to test to see if 2.2lb/ft works with your beer
lines.
Yes fob is a real word. A fob is easily described as one of those leather
key ring-thingies that has the logo of the manufacturer on it. The way
it became applicable to beer is that older bottling lines used a hicky that
was shaped like a key fob to agitate the bottles so they could cap on foam.
The fob was spring loaded and located in the path of the bottles
immediately before the capping station; as the fob slipped off the bottle
that was passing by, it slapped the next bottle in line, the vibration
raised foam. The noun describing the thingie that did the action has
become a brewers-verb that describes the action done.
NPL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:22:34 -0400
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker@bu.edu>
Subject: Keg Back Pressure
>John Schnupp <johnschnupp@yahoo.com> offers the following useful suggestions:
>
>1. Soften the tubing by heating. Use your choice. I've used hot water,
>boiling water and a lighter. All work well, with the obvious cautions about
>melting the tubing when using a flame.
>
>2. Use a needle nosed pliers and insert it into the tubing and "pre-stretch"
>the tubing before attempting to put it on the barb.
>
>3. Use a slight amount of lube. I use lube a product called Keg Lube.
>
>4. Last resort, file (or grind) down the barbs on the connector. If you do
>this, you *must* use a hose clamp.
The beer line I got several (~7) years ago from St. Pat's (NAYYY)
uses a plastic hose barb reducer to go from the larger tubing to the
smaller. Works great.
Hope this helps,
Strom
Newton, MA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:19:51 -0500
From: Dan.Stedman@PILLSBURY.COM
Subject: re: Foaming Keg Blues
>Is there an upper limit to the volume of CO2 in a keg that you can serve
>without foaming and losing that carbonation? I'm trying to serve a wheat
>beer with an appropriate amount of carbonation for the style, say 3.5 to
>4 volumes. The keg is at 36 degrees F. I've got 22 PSI on it. I've got
>14 feet of brand new 3/16 inch vinyl tubing and a picnic tap. The line
>is all refriderated. All I get is foam with a little flat beer.
Hi Mike - one way to get rid of the foam is to only use 1 ft of line between the
tap and the disconnect, and then bleed off all but a couple of pounds of the CO2
when you serve it. I've found that beer loses carbonation very slowly, even
without pressure on it, if it isn't agitated at all and there aren't any
nucleation points in the keg (I left an airstone in the keg once and it lost CO2
in a hurry). Plus, you can always top it off with CO2 if you aren't going to
drink it for a while, or if it has lost a bunch of CO2.
Another thing - take apart your tap and clean it regularly. It only takes a few
weeks for that yummy mold to build up in your tap and create a lot of beer
turbulence.
Dan in Minnetonka
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:01:34 -0500
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa@hotmail.com>
Subject: lower temp in RIMS
Martin_Brungard@urscorp.com wrote:
>HSA may be more of a potential with a sprinkler, but its probably >minor
>considering the sparge water temp. It is probably more of a >concern in a
>RIMS since the mashing temp is lower.
I use a 2 tier RIMs controlled by a PID controller. I have never seen a
statement anywhere that says "RIMs users mash at a lower temp". If I should
be mashing at a lower temp., why? and if they reason is sound, then how much
lower.
Apparently I haven't given enough credit to those little enzymes if they can
figure out that they are in motion during mashing.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:28:50 -0700
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz@qwest.net>
Subject: Diacetyl II
Since lagers can include diacetyl rests by increasing the temp to the 60F
range, I would suspect that yeast re-absorbtion would likely occur better at
warmer temps. Since a yeast 's activity decreases with temperature decrease,
it is probably safe to assume that some reabsorbtion of the diacetyl occurs
even at lower temps. It'll just take longer.
The key is to make sure your yeast is still active at the cold temps. Crash
cooling does not bode well for the buggers.
Some afterthought: When lagers are going through a diacetyl rest, the yeast
also have a small supply of sugars to continue to eat upon. If all the
sugars are gone as with bottled beers, will the yeast continue to work on
the diacetyl assuming they are still viable?
Burp,
-Dan
> *> From: "Gene" <gcollins@geotec.net>
> Subject: Diacetyl II
>
> About a week ago, I posted a question as to whether yeast would re-absorb
> diacetyl if it was chilled. No one has responded to the post, so I thought
I
> would post it again to see if I could get any takers. Is this a retarded
> question or was it overlooked?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:43:23
From: "matt dinges" <matt_dinges@hotmail.com>
Subject: Brussels Bier Circus
This is in response to Leo's listing of places in Brussels. Leo: you list
bier circus as a bottle shop. When were you there? I was there in 1998 and
it was far from a bottle shop. It was a bar with a few hundred different
belgian beers and a limited food menu. This was the only beer bar I visited
in Brussels, went there three nights in a row. Great Place, the owner was
very friendly and gave me info on other similiar places in other towns.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:11:21 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dlake@gdi.net>
Subject: Food Network Special Today! "Follow That Beer"
The food network is having a special Saturday at 4:00 pm called "Follow
that Beer."
I happened to catch the "promo" last night and it looked interesting.
No mega-swill here. In what I saw it looks like they were matching food
with Hoegaarden, Orval and other favorites.
Here's the Food Network link
http://www.foodtv.com/tvshows/tv-c3/0,4531,6307,00.html
Don Lake
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:24:09 -0300
From: "David L. Potter" <dlpotter@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Foaming Keg Blues
Re: Homebrew Digest #3705 (August 10, 2001)
David L Potter wrote:
There's surely art and strong magic in this CO2 stuff... ;-) I just made a
jockey box with 25 ft of 1/4" copper tubing... to get it to dispense properly
I needed 35 lb pressure and the coil in an icewater bath for twenty minutes.
Anything less was pure foam... I could also tell about the rainbow of beer
when I blew the hose off going from 30 PSI to 35PSI... ;-) Luclily it was
outside on the deck and was pointed _away_ from my mother-in-law... ;-)
At our next club meeting I may set up a test... varius lengths of 3/16 tubing
on a picnic tap at various dispensing pressures....
david potter
> >
> > Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:39:52 -0700
> > From: Mike Lemons <ndcent@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Foaming Keg Blues
> >
> > Is there an upper limit to the volume of CO2 in a keg that you can serve
> > without foaming and losing that carbonation? I'm trying to serve a wheat
> > beer with an appropriate amount of carbonation for the style, say 3.5 to
> > 4 volumes. The keg is at 36 degrees F. I've got 22 PSI on it. I've got
> > 14 feet of brand new 3/16 inch vinyl tubing and a picnic tap. The line
> > is all refriderated. All I get is foam with a little flat beer.
> >
> > The only thing that is weird about my setup is the inline brass adapters
> > to convert from 3/16 to 1/4 line at both ends. I could lose those and
> > just jam the line on there like everyone else. I have the connectors
> > because I was experimenting with 1/8 inch line in order to get a greater
> > pressure drop. There seems to be too much friction in 1/8 inch line such
> > that the beer would foam in the line before it ever got to the tap.
> >
> > What happens when you have too much beer line? Wait don't tell me. The
> > beer foams right? Is there a way to tell the difference between too-
> > short beer foam and too-long beer foam?
> >
> > Someone mentioned foaming and fobbing. Is "fob" a real word?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 21:43:11 -0400
From: "Dave & Joan King" <dking3@stny.rr.com>
Subject: Dry Hopping with pellets & marbles in the keg
Lou, Steve,
I've been dry hopping for years, in secondaries and in kegs. You can =
float or sink them, as the situation dictates, with a small glass vial =
or marbles, respectively. Kegs (or conical fermenters) need floating =
hop bags, since they'll sink and I had one clog the beer outlet pipe. =
Secondary dry hop bags need marbles, since the evolved gas makes them =
want to float way up high, and it seems like you want to get them down =
in the beer, right? I do.
Both can be easily sanitized, but for the glass vial, find ones with =
solid plastic lid seals, not paper. Marbles sanitize just fine. =
They're just glass, but you might want to be careful that they're not =
cracked much, as that could provide places that are hard to sanitize. =20
BTW, I use hop bags, and boils them, since they're hard to sanitize =
chemically and rinse well. I also often put the hops in the bag, and =
back into the boiling pad, and just get them back to boiling temperature =
to assure all the "bugs" are cooked. =20
Dave King (Brewers In the Endicott Region, BIER)
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3706, 08/11/01
*************************************
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