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HOMEBREW Digest #3668
HOMEBREW Digest #3668 Mon 25 June 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: counter pressure filling (Pat Babcock)
Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems ("phil sides jr")
Re: Rootbeer ("phil sides jr")
wort oxidation & fermentation geometry (Marcie5295)
Homebrew Club (Cas Koralewski)
M.A.D.D. in Belgium (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
RE: CP bottling ("Steve")
re: counterpressure filling ("The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty")
oats in alts? (Marc Sedam)
Head retention in keg (mark dickeson)
Ultra-small lager batch / freezing wort questions ("Bissell, Todd S")
Rootbeer ("Jack Schmidling")
Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems ("A.J. deLange")
H2O2 Ingestion and HSO (Tombrau)
Water+ ("Stephen Alexander")
H2O2/Cleaning Carboys/... ("Stephen Alexander")
Predicting efficiency when steeping grains (Greg Spurrier)
death of H:W .... now it's W:H per Kunze ("Stephen Alexander")
*
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:32:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Re: counter pressure filling
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
"Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa@silganmfg.com> writes of Jeff Renner's CPF
advice...
> I must say that this advice of putting the bottles and filler in the freezer
> is possibly the worst c-p filling tip that I have ever heard.
> Putting your (hopefully) clean sanitzed bottles and filler into a freezer is
> hrowing out a invite for all of the 'fine' micro flora that infest freezers.
> This practice will likely lead to much more signifcant problems than
> foamy beer.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, friend. A short stretch of
the imagination directs one to put the CPF in some sort of protective
device, such as a large zip-loc bag, to protect its sanitary state. The
bottles? They are easily protected by stretching a sheet of plastic wrap
over the top of the lot of them (if your freezer uses forced air cooling,
use a piece of foil over the mouth of each bottle).
> My advice is, first get the beer colder, if you going to put something into
> the freezer it should be the beer (just don't freeze it) the closer that you
> get the beer to its freezing point the better it will retain the CO2 in
> solution, giving you more time to get the bottles crowned.
Very sound advice.
> Second, put a
> guage on the gas/foam bleed off valve if your filler. This will allow you
> to monitor the pressure within the bottle so that you know when you have
> reached equilbrium and it is safe to disengage to filler from the bottle.
Here we part company again. A gauge is a nice thought, but wholly
unncecessary and a cleaning challenge afterward. And any beasties growing
in the gauge's pressure port have a much better chance of contaminating a
bottle of beer than the likelihood of an infective climbing a bottle in
your freezer to slip under the protective cover of foil or plastic wrap -
all you have to do is set the filler down on its side or tip it some time
during the the fill process to get a dribble of contaminated beer at the
business end of the filler. Either occurence happens all the time with
home brewers CPFs. Nope. No gauge for me.
Once you close the bleed valve, a short delay before shutting the beer
valve is usually adequate for you to reach equillibrium.
> Third, have someone help you with the crowning. Two people can bottle
> and crown more effecting than one.
Ditto that! The Lovely Kim enjoys capping bottles, and is usually my
bottling assistant :^)
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:01:13 -0400
From: "phil sides jr" <phil@yankeebrew.com>
Subject: Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems
Troy <thager@jps.net> asks about his water:
>I seem to have the opposite problem that many brewers face in that my
>water's pH is too low! It comes out of the tap at about 4.8 and my 100%
pale
>mashes run at about 5.0 (adjusted for temperature - cooled sample is at
I'm curious Troy... What part of the world are you in and what do you know
about your water source? Seems to me that water that acidic might be pretty
rough on the municipal plumbing.
Phil Sides
Concord, NH
Das Leben ist zu kurz, schreckliches Bier zu trinken
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:08:50 -0400
From: "phil sides jr" <phil@yankeebrew.com>
Subject: Re: Rootbeer
"Sky Systems" <rhenson@skysystems.com> asks:
>Does anyone have a good root beer recipe, or know where to find resources
on it?
I have a book called "Homemade Root Beer Soda & Pop" by Stephen Cresswell
which has been quite useful for me (YMMV). It is published by Storey Books
and I assume it would be reasonably easy to find. The biggest challenge I
have encountered is finding good, fresh ingredients (roots).
Phil Sides
Concord, NH
Das Leben ist zu kurz, schreckliches Bier zu trinken
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 03:34:03 EDT
From: Marcie5295@aol.com
Subject: wort oxidation & fermentation geometry
The odiferous soluble reaction of carbon molecules increases inertly with a
pro-negative ionic sulfurication inducement during the pre-mating ritualistic
acidification of c-chromosone genes for most ale yeast strains, assuming that
the starting gravity of the wort is approximately equal to the reduction of
psuedo-synchranized protein collaboration immediately prior to the enzyme
molestation regime while lautering, as long as the pH of the brewer's saliva
doesn't exceed the previous beta-glucanese embryonic fission ratio.:)
My solution is that for worts with an SG of 55 or less, I shake the carboy.
Above that, I inject pure oxygen. I adjust the pitching rate according to the
style I am making -- a lower final gravity quite often has nothing to do with
making a better beer.
Of much more importance is the geometry of your beer glass. My collection of
glasses takes up half the space in my den. The correct choice for the beer
you are drinking makes all the difference in the flavor, aroma, and your
enjoyment. For example, I am now enjoying an Alt that was just OK in a
Bitburger pilsner glass, less than pleasing in an English pint glass, but is
absolute Heaven in a Gordon Biersch Maibock glass. If I could just brew
something that was perfectly suited for those plastic shotglasses they use in
the competitions......
A Kasch,
Huntington Beach, CA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:02:27 -0400
From: Cas Koralewski <caskor@buckeye-express.com>
Subject: Homebrew Club
Does anyone out there know of an active club in the Toledo, Ohio area? Or,
is there anyone interested in starting a club? If not, then where might I
find a listing of "cyber-clubs"?
I certainly get a lot of information from HBD (aside from the fluff and
arguments, which I also enjoy) but would really enjoy brewing with others &
sharing my limited knowledge (not being the scientific type) as well as
picking up new ideas.
Thanks,
Cas
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:17:02 -0400
From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob@erols.com>
Subject: M.A.D.D. in Belgium
I think that group is only against *driving* drunk, and since the
Belgian pilot program is working with children between 3 and 15 (and I
think that in European Union countries, you may have to older than that
to get a license to drive), they'd have no problem with it. ;-)
Seriously, though: anything that encourages a healthy
enjoyment/relationship with/use of beer and wine (who knows, the program
cold spread to France!), I think is a far sight better than our often
myopic and prohibitive attempts to curb the "evils of drink" -- all
those efforts ought to begin at a young age, and really can't be
successfully legislated against by the time one reaches his teens.
Flame away. It's only electrons.
- --Rob Hanson
the Closet Brewery
'post tenebras lux'
Washington, DC
- -----------------------
"Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink
I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about
the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and
dreams. If I didn't drink this beer, they might be out of
work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to
myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their
dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
- --Unattributed
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:22:01 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1@chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: CP bottling
In regards to CP bottling, I'm not sure what the fuss is all about.
I brew 10 gallon batches & force carbonate in kegs. I'll CP bottle 1 keg
and serve from the other until I need the keg, then bottle the rest.
Sometimes it is very little, other times up to 3 gallons.
I don't have to chill my bottles or my filler. As long as the keg is
around 40F or lower, and I use about 20lbs pressure to bottle, I don't
have a lot of foaming problem. When relieving the pressure before
removing the bottle, I do get a little foam that overflows, but this
just allows me to 'cap on foam'. The overflow from a 5 gallon keg after
bottling is about a pint, which is quickly consumed.
I built a 'bottling station' that includes a bench capper. This allows
for one hand operation and nearly continuous filling, sort of assembly
line style. Rather than go into all the details, if you're interested
you can go to
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew/gadgets/cpfiller.htm and check
it out.
Steve Jones
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, TN
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:46:20 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty" <mikey@swampgas.com>
Subject: re: counterpressure filling
"Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa@silganmfg.com> wrote:
>I must say that this advice of putting the bottles and filler
>in the freezer is possibly the worst c-p filling
>tip that I have ever heard. Putting your (hopefully) clean
>sanitzed bottles and filler into a freezer is throwing out a
>invite for all of the 'fine' micro flora that infest freezers.
>This practice will likely lead
>to much more signifcant problems than foamy beer.
On the contrary, this will in fact help a great deal with foaming. If
infection is a concern then simply cover the bottle tops with foil or
( for the paranoid only ) plastic wrap and rubber bands.
And remember -- fermentor geometry is completely irrevelant to the
production of good beer. Fermentor COLOR, on the other hand, is
critical.
- -- tafKaks
**************************************
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:56:01 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: oats in alts?
I'm planning to make a gigantic batch of alt to be ready on
August 11...25 gallons to be exact. Other than testing my
ability to approach small commercial scale brewing (boiling 30
gallons of wort should be a treat), I have some malted oats I'd
like to use up.
I'm basically sticking with Al K's alt recipe:
32 lbs DeWolf-Cosyns Munich malt
5 lbs Melanadoin malt
3 lbs malted oats
1oz Magnum [13.2%] (60 mins)
7oz Ultra [3.1%] (60 mins)
2oz Ultra [3.1%] (20 mins)
Mash in at 122 for 10 mins. Raise to 150F for 60 mins. Mash out
at 170F. ProMash lists the OG at 1.049, at my normal 81%
efficiency.
Ferment with WhiteLabs Dusseldorf Alt yeast at 66F.
Anyone see anything missing. How 'bout them oats?
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:34:44 +0930 (CST)
From: mark dickeson <markd@sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Head retention in keg
I seem to be having a few troubles with my keg setup. After fermentation
I pour it into the keg and pressurize it to 200 kPa (30 psi), then leave
it 4-5 days. After this, I drop the pressure to 50-70 kPa (8-10 psi)
ready for serving. My problem is that initially the beer pours very
frothy although the head quickly diminishes and the beer itself isn't
very gassy. As I use more of the keg, the frothing eventually ceases but
the problem with lack of carbonation is still there. I have bottled some
beer from the same batch and there is no problem so I am assuming the
keg setup is my problem. Do you think I need to leave it longer, or use
a higher pressure, or is there some other problem. Thanks for any
thoughts.
Cheers.
- --
mark
(this insert has a protective coating)
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock.
-- Wynn Catlin
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:29:46 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell@spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Ultra-small lager batch / freezing wort questions
Hi all:
I want to experiment with lagers (especially during this time of the year,
when they go down the smoothest!), but don't have the space for an extra
refrigerator. However, I always have a fair amount of room in my normal,
everyday use `fridge for 1 or 2 1-gallon glass fermenters (that once held
cheap commercial wine). (It's a typical bachelor `fridge: nothing but beer,
bread, and some condiments...! :-)
My plan is as such: boil up a fairly standard lager from 5 lbs of Briess
Brewers Gold DME (8L), and 1 lb of rice syrup solids, and a typical balance
of Saaz and Hallertaur hops.... nothing award winning, obviously, but then
again, not many "lawnmower beers" are, IMHO. Anyway, a full 5-gallon batch
of wort.
Then, I plan on chilling and racking a gallon into each of my one-gallon
glass fermenters, pitching my yeast, and letting them ferment at standard
lager temps: 50 degrees for the primary, in my fermenter chiller that I
purchased from The Gadget Store at http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com , and
the secondary and the cold-lagering in my `fridge, at the appropriate temps.
The remaining wort I want to freeze for later use (for either more lawnmower
beer, or yeast starter).
Given the above information, do you see any significant flaws with this plan
of action, and if so, what would you do to makes things better/more
efficient? Do you foresee any significant drawbacks to freezing of the
wort....?
"Why not just scale down your recipe from a 5-gallon batch to a 1-gallon
batch", you ask...? If you have ever tried measuring out 0.15 oz's of hop
pellets on a typical household scale, you'll know what I'm talking about...!
Any insights, positive and negative, would be really appreciated....!
Cheers!
Todd Bissell
Imperial Beach, CA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:29:23 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf@mc.net>
Subject: Rootbeer
From: "Sky Systems" <rhenson@skysystems.com>
>I'll take the recent discussions on Ginger Ale and force carbonating soda
to
post a question that has been on my mind for some time now.... Does anyone
have a good
root beer recipe, or know where to find resources on it?...
It is my understanding that the key ingredient (sassafrass) is highly toxic
unless processed in some special way.
This sort of precludes making root beer from scratch. Ginger ale presents
no such problems and the options are many.
> Is it safe to bottle in my beer bottles?
I missed the discussion on ginger ale but I have worked out a method for
both that makes it child's play. Just so happens I got the urge for
rootbeer last week and just made my first batch in quite a few years.
The easiest way to bottle soft drinks is to use liter pop bottles. When
thay get hard, they are carbonated and you put them in the fridge. If you
only drink half, leave it out over night and it will re-carbonate itself.
There are some recipes on my web page and info on my video that splains it
all.
BTW, home made root beer MUST be made with bread yeast. That really cool
flavor is the only thing that separates it from commercial stuff.
js
ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
Home Page:Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:48:21 +0100
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems
WRT Troy's problems with lime: Reactions in the mash tun are often not what is
expected because thorough mixing is not acheived, because the malt material is
not fully solubilized etc. I think the approach to take here is to correct the
water. It shouldn't take much lime water to balance the pH of the liquor
because there just isn't that much carbonate in it if my calculation was
correct but my calculation is based on the assumption that there are no other
ions in appreciable concentration. It would be very instructive to have a more
complete water report or at least an actual measurement of alkalinity. You can
buy a simple test kit to measure this (www.hach.com is one source).
The question becomes "Why is the pH so low?" and I think that question should
be taken up with the supplier. You might want to try aerating the water
vigorously i.e. pouring it back and forth between a couple of buckets from a
good height. This will release dissolved carbon dioxide. If releasing the CO2
doesn't lower the pH then there is something else in the water besides the
carbo system causing the low pH and I'd want to know what that is before I
brewed with the water or drank it. pH 4.8 is below what the UN or US standards
for drinking water allow. If it is well water and releasing the CO2 gets the pH
closer to 7 then there is no problem. If there is mine runoff or something like
that then there is.
I'd try aeration to get CO2 out. If this doesn't work then there is some other
system and that should be investigated but you might nevertheless try using the
lime water to bring the pH to about 8 and then mashing with that. If that
doesn't work I'd try increasing the buffering capacity of the water by adding
bicarbonate (sodium bicarbonate). Start with a small amount and repeat
experiments increasing incrementally until the desired result is obtained.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:25:17 EDT
From: Tombrau@aol.com
Subject: H2O2 Ingestion and HSO
Hello Fellow Brewers:
I have been following the H2O2 thread vaguely and recalled that there is a
belief that ingesting food grade H2O2 cures anaerobic illnesses such as
cancer and viral diseases.
There are several books and websites (oxytherapy.com, for one) that make
quite a case for oxygenating your body for good health. As well, they note
the oxidative process and free radical release. An increase in anti-oxident
vitamins is recommended while on oxygen therapy. I read some interesting
testimonials, one old cancer ridden fellow would play cards in his H2O2'd hot
tub. He and his pals cancers went into remission within a few months. One
other thing I learned about is the Lourdes (sp?) in France. A healing and
restorative spring for centuries has been found to have naturally occurring
H2O2. There are health clinics around the country that actually give H2O2
intravenously.
So it seems, when oxygenating your yeast with H2O2, always give them Vitamin
A, C and E for their antioxident qualities. But, A and E are oils. Will that
effect my head retention? : )
I am intrigued by O2 and it's role in our world and even further by the
parallels in the above subject and yeast's aerobic nature. I am interested to
see what the more technical than I in this forum think of all this.
Blunder of the Month
And on a similar note, a few weeks ago I closed the valve on the out side of
my heat exchanger to let the cold liquor catch up. I left the O2 on though
and a few minutes later the hopback was bubbling furiously. It took me a
moment to realize I had pushed O2 all the way through the H.E. and bubbling
into the 200f+ hopback. I know HSA is bad, HSO (hot side oxygenation) must
be terrible!!! I presume the beer ( a very hoppy and malty "brewpub red")
will deteriate quickly. Am I correct in this?
>From hot and sunny Orlando (Hello Jeff)
Cheers
Tom Moench
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:13:02 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Water+
Troy seems to be having difficulty reducing acidity in his water, and Hubert
mit Hangover remarks an the Nitrogen.v.Nitrates in another readers water.
This all points to an impending question I have when I switch to well water
in a few months.
AJ deLange posted ...
>For a brewing water analysis you want to know "the significant seven"
>parameters: pH, calcium hardness, magnesium hardness, alkalinity
>(total), chloride, sulfate and chlorine.
"the significant seven" is a great starter list (tho' I preferred the
Kurosawa film), but for brewing I think we might want to review more
items. Does anyone have a more complete list of water assays that *should*
be performed to evaluate water for brewing. Certainly you'd like to know
things like iron, sodium, zinc, copper and with nitrates perhaps the "dirty
dozen" mark is met.
AJ, anyone, can you come up with a more complete list and some numerical
bounds ?
-S
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:28:11 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: H2O2/Cleaning Carboys/...
Jens Briesofsky posted some great stuff about H2O2 in wort
>> 2H2O2 >> 2H2O + O2??
>
>This is unfortunatly not the reaction that takes place. What happens is
>
>H2O2 -> H20 + O*
The reaction rate constant for Jens description is vastly higher.
A more favored reaction yet is ...
H2O2 + Cu+ -> OH + OH- + Cu++ (Km = 8.7*10^3 /M.sec)
and similarly for iron and some other metal ions, None of this is
particularly desirable from
a flavor standpoint.
>I regard that as a potential health risk and will no try it - but a perfect
>way to find [...]
No thanks. H2O2 (and even formaldehyde) have been commercially in the mash
used to enhance colloidal stability and apparently H2O2 is much better (by
about a factor of 2) than O2 at oxidizing/removing polyphenols when added at
this early (pre-break) stage. I'd expect some polyphenol reactions when
added to the fermenter too. Three years ago I experimented w/ H2O2 in the
mash, but I think it's pretty worthless compared to other techniques of
stabilization. I'm with you Jens - H2O2 is a nice choice as a sanitizer but
I'm not interested in it as a O2 source (except indirectly as Ken Schwartz
suggested).
- --
David Craft writes ...
>I usually put some PBW brand, powdered brewery wash, in the carboy and let
>it soak for about a week.
I rinse a used carboy well with COLD water and then to give is a soak for
several days with a cleanser in COLD water. I've used PWB, TSP, chlorine
bleach and unscented diswasher soap. All of these work well, tho' I
haven't tried split batch comparisons (I'm sure Pivo has ;^) . There is
very little or no visible crud adhesion to the glass after this treatment -
so little scrubbing required. Warm/hot water seems to 'set' the protein
residue and makes it harder to clean in my experience.
- --
Jim Liddil writes ...
>Just some topics to think about instead of Australia and
>hating Steve Alexander. :-) :-)
But Jim - what would fill the heads of knuckle-draggers without someone to
hate ?
Seriously Jim - I would like to hear *your* knowledgeable input on the
matter of Lambic brewing. It's an unexperienced interest of mine and the
discussions of the range and succession of fermenting organisms always makes
me wonder if I shouldn't volauf thru a well used sewer trap. Strange
stuff - but great.
Talking about odd ferments ... I've been working my way thru a case of
Shephard Neam 'Spitfire' export ale. A very refreshing light bodied brew.
Medium brown color and a bit of a 'Nut Brown' type flavor profile, nice
level of bitterness - but the oddity is that it appears to have a
significant acetic acid flavor & aroma which is more apparent when served
too cold. Purposeful or not the extra acidity and acetic flavors 'work'
in this ale. Very nice summer beer btw.
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Greg Spurrier <ggspurr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Predicting efficiency when steeping grains
Greetings Fellow Brewers,
I've been unable to find a satisfactory discussion of recipe
forumulation for extract recipes that include steeped grains; once
the topic of efficiency comes up, all the literature that I've read
seems to assume partial-mash or all-grain. So, I thought I'd ask
here.
Before launching into my questions, let me set the background with the
grain bill for an APA that I recently brewed:
6.2 lb Pale Malt Extract
1.0 lb Crystal Malt (40L)
0.5 lb CaraPils Malt
0.25 lb Wheat Malt
I steeped the grains in two gallons of water at 155 F for 45 minutes
then sparged them with another half gallon of water at 160 F. After
adding the malt extract, taking a hydrometer reading, and
extrapolating to a five gallon batch I ended up with a gravity of
1.049, which is about what ProMash predicted if I had been an mashing
the grains and set my efficiency to 50%.
My first question is whether this apparent 50% efficiency for the
grains will apply when steeping other combinations (and proportions)
of grain, or is it a direct result of the proportions of the
particular grains that I used in this case? I'm assuming that if I
were only using crystal malt I could determine the efficiency and
expect it to remain constant. But, what about the CaraPils and Wheat?
I read somewhere that CaraPils can be steeped, but does it give the
same relative efficiency as crystal? Am I gaining any fermentables by
steeping the wheat or does it absolutely have to be mashed to produce
any extract?
Is there a list somewhere of "steepable grains" from which one can
expect to extract fermentables without conducting a real mash? Also,
does anyone know a good reference for formulating extract + steeped
grains recipes? I've got _Designing Great Beers_ and I find it quite
useful, but it's not quite clear to me how to adjust for the fact that
I'm not doing any mashing.
Thanks,
Greg Spurrier
San Jose, California
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:52:04 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: death of H:W .... now it's W:H per Kunze
David Harsh writes ....
>consider the topic dead, Steve
Your "shear force as cause" topic ? Yeah it's dead.
I said I see no necessary physical connection between H:W as an isolated
factor and poor fermentation performance. You asserted the shear was the
missing link. So you'd need to show that H:W independently determines
distinct levels of shear, and that these distinct levels of shear cause
poorer fermentation performance. You've failed to provide convincing
arguments for either.
About a month back I posted:
>I'm all ears Dave. If you can write the equations that show that
>circulation induced shear forces are entirely dependent on H:W and not
>dependent on other factors like volume your argument becomes much more
>plausible.
and I'm still waiting.
===
As for Nathaniel Lansings suggestion that I am twisting statements by
excluding context. If I said, "I came up with microcomputers. It was
presented
at a great lecture in 1978 ... " people would say I was mistaken or worse.
"Come up with" is defined in my AH dictionary as to "propose or produce".
Mr.Fix may well have posted a typo or misstatement that was never intended -
no shame there, but I did not misinterpret the words. I also feel it's very
important to properly credit the real innovators like C.Rainbow.
===
Information (for a change) ....
Anyone interested will find a nice note on shear induced floculation of
yeasts related to
fining at:
http://www.breworld.com/the%5Fbrewer/9602/br2.html
btw. This paper doesn't address the points of contention but does give some
nice graphical representation to something Dave and I seem to agree on -
shear induces flocculation in flocculent yeast. No surprises but a nice
short presentation with decent graphics.
===
Another interesting source is Kunze's TB&M, pp 368 in discussing CCs notes
that wort height should be kept under 15m (49ft) because of pressure but
cites higher examples.
In the next section 4.4.1.2.2 Kunze discusses diameter:width ratio. or W:H r
ather than H:W in relation to CC fermenters only. That he only refers to CC
vessels is a very telling point. Kunze suggests a W:H (overall height) is a
matter of opinion, but that ratios of 1:1 up to 1:5 are suggested. He
points to Unterstein's paper in Brauwelt as a trend toward wider vessels,
specifically stating that wider vessels imply a 1:2 W:H ratio, and various
other details. Kunze is specific to note that he is talking about primary
fermenters with a typical 12-14 ft diameter and not our little HB
fermenters.
===
I've an experiment underway and I'll post the results when it's thru.
-Steve
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End of HOMEBREW Digest #3668, 06/25/01
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