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HOMEBREW Digest #3659
HOMEBREW Digest #3659 Thu 14 June 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Speaking of Australians ("Phil & Jill Yates")
light-struck beer (ensmingr)
Dr Pivo - odd books. ("Colin Marshall")
Temperature controller (Dan Temple)
British handpump questions ("Kevin Kutskill")
Re: Brett, and Ped ("RJ")
Brettanomyces and Pediococcus ("Fred L. Johnson")
Accurate Temperature Measurement (Ant Hayes)
More Book Talk ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
More Book Talk ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
("MrWES")
Oxygenation with peroxide (Nathan Kanous)
Ball Valve Cleaning/sanitizing ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Re: HERMS system tryout and % open area ("Dennis Collins")
freezer problems (Marc Sedam)
Oh brother, where art thou? ("Thomas D. Hamann")
bubbles ("Walker, Randy")
Beer Storage ("Doug Hurst")
casking real ale (Mike Bardallis)
re:babel ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
Polder type thermometers ("Pete Calinski")
RE: Ultimate Mall Crawl (Jeff E)
Re: odd books (might be off topic) (Dan McFeeley)
RE: HERMS system tryout (Tony Verhulst)
RE: Finnish Sahti Recipe ("Bill Dubas")
homebrewed hops plugs (stencil)
Fruit Puree (Gary M Chumney)
Carboy temp results ("Hedglin, Nils A")
oxygenation filter: is it needed? ("John Todd Larson")
"sucrose" taste ("Dr. Pivo")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:47:30 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: Speaking of Australians
Obviously there is not much point in arguing the loss of the Burradoo Hilton
with Wes Smith. Clearly he has no intention of allowing such a magnificent
venue to continue. Though one wonders why Wes (who doesn't even hold a
title) has so much say in matters. There is not much you can buy in
Australia these days that doesn't have something to do with Wes. I see his
name on my bags of malt, on my hops and even on my yeast. You can't even
visit a micro brewery without seeing his name chiselled into the brass
somewhere.
All this time I have been fighting with my Croatian neighbour without
realising that a dark and growing monster (and a kiwi to boot) lurked just
on the outskirts of Burradoo. But still and all, I am pleased to see him
still here in the HBD rather than that raucous lunatic from North
Queensland.
Speaking of Australians, I notice a Max McDonohue asking some questions and
complaining of having his head bashed in by Doc Pivo.
Max, the Doc is not really a violent type. Though he does expect respect. He
came to stay with us (three times in fact) last summer and I recall him
telling me about an upstart Swede who claimed the Doc's beer was rubbish.
This chap ended up in the Doc's workshop with his head in a vice. The Doc
simply wound up the vice until he got the answer he wanted, that the Doc's
beer was in fact the very best he had ever tasted! Funny how some folk
change their minds under pressure.
But Max, your question about changing the shape of your fermenter deserves
some attention. What you are unwittingly doing is known as open
fermentation. This however is not normally carried out in a bath and
certainly not out in a paddock! For God's sake man, how far out from
civilisation are you? One has to wonder about your bottling procedures!
It is no use asking the Doc about making Tooheys or Reschs or even Crown
Lager, he hates them all. No wonder he wanted to bash your head in, probably
hoping to knock some sense in there. But don't take his criticism harshly.
He really is a nice chap when sober (which is not often).
Speaking also about Australians and the raucous lunatic from NQ, some of you
American's may be interested to know Graham has taken to radio where he
rants and raves to listeners about homebrew. He is also proud of the fact
that he infiltrated a group of harmless folk singers somewhere out in a NQ
swamp and filled them full of his dreadful brew. Now he proudly claims they
return every year more for the grog than the music. Good on you Graham, what
a champion of culture you are. Next you'll have them drinking metho!
Cheers
Phil
Baron Of Burradoo
(But Not As Powerful As Wes)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:01:49 -0500
From: ensmingr@twcny.rr.com
Subject: light-struck beer
What's new with light-struck beer? See the recent review
article from "The Spectrum" by Prof. Denis De Keukeleire,
University of Ghent:
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/photochem/Spring2001Spectrum.pdf
Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
Life Under the Sun: http://www.yale.edu/yup/lifesun
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:29:26 +1000
From: "Colin Marshall" <byoah@argay.com.au>
Subject: Dr Pivo - odd books.
The book, detailing "wine from EVERYTHING", which the good Dr. seeks is
probably "First Steps in Winemaking" by one C.J.J. Berry (how apt!). It does
indeed tell you how to make plonk from all manner of vegetables and fruits,
including parsley, peaches, parsnips (3 recipes) passion fruit, peas and
their pods (verrrrrrry economical, wee Jimmy), pears, pineapples, plums,
pomegranates, primrose and prunes. And that's only the "P"s. The book has
been in print since about 1963 and has sold well over a gazillion copies. We
retail it for A$24.80 (which is about US$3.82, I think). We also have a copy
in our library for loan, if Dr. P would like to call in and leave 22 litres
of his finest Pilsener as (non-refundable) deposit.
Colin Marshall
BrewYourOwnAtHome
Canberra
Australia.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:11:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Temple <danatemple@yahoo.com>
Subject: Temperature controller
I've been looking for a "total solution" to
fermentation/lagering/serving temperature measurement
and control, and all I could find was the usual $20
indoor/outdoor thermometer, or - neat - a $50
refrigerator controller (from e.g. St. Patrick's of
Texas).
What I want in addition is the ability to control a
wort-warmer, to keep my Ales fermenting nicely in the
winter months, plus ability to record maximum/minimum
temps reached.
Haven't seen anything suitable, so, I'm building my
own! Once it works, I'll post the design..
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:26:48 -0400
From: "Kevin Kutskill" <beer-geek@home.com>
Subject: British handpump questions
Hoping to put an British handpump in my basement, but have a few questions.
I've read that the pump cylinder holds a 1/4-1/2 pints worth of beer, and
will be sitting at room temperature, unless something is done. They sell
water jackets to circulate cool water around the cylinder, and keep the beer
in the cylinder cool, but now I would have to have a setup to have a
reservoir of cool water and pump to pump the water through this water jacket
(read: more $$$). Anyone else come up with another solution, or is this not
a problem to worry about in the first place? I would think that having room
temperature beer sitting in the pump cylinder all the time increases the
risk of infected beer, and in addition, it seems like a lot of wasted beer
if I had to dump 1/4-1/2 pints worth of beer every time I want to pour
myself a pint. Any comments?
Kevin
beer-geek@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:05:57 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing@cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Brett, and Ped
Keith Busby <kbusby@facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:
"Anybody know where I can get Brettanomyces and Pedioccocus currently? I
don't mean the Wyeast Lambic blend. YCKC no longer supplies and Brewer's
Resource is having trouble getting one of the two. I can culture from
slant."
Try getting from BrewTek, they offer:
Brewtek CL-5200 Brettanomyces lambicus
Wild yeast strain associated with the country-side breweries of Belgian.
This yeast is an important contributor to the flavor profile of lambic beers
and contributes a unique and complex flavor sometimes described as "horsey"
or "old leather." A slow-growing yeast which takes several weeks to ferment
and develop its unique character.
Brewtek CL-5600 Pediococcus damnosus
Lactic acid producing bacteria found in lambic beers. This is is a
slow-growing bacteria which prefers anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. It is
also common brewery contaminant which produces large amounts of diacetyl.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:40:06 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brettanomyces and Pediococcus
Keith asks about a source for Brettanomyces and Pediococcus. I was able to
find Brettanomyces lambicus from Brewer's Resource (brewtek.com), cat. no.
CL5200. They also offer Pediococcus damnosus (CL5600), but I haven't
ordered it so I don't know if it is really available.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:34:06 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes@FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Accurate Temperature Measurement
The various posts regarding accurate temperature measurement in a carboy
give me a chance to punt stainless fermenters again to get Steve's mind
off the H:W argument. With stainless, it is quite easy to purge weld a
socket into the fermenter. I have a Wica thermoprobe that screws into
the socket- which tells me the temperature of the fermenting wort, and
drives the pump that sends ice water around the cooling jacket - keeping
the temp where I want it. (and its cheaper than a Big Bertha)
Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:58:19 -0300
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal@pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: More Book Talk
Dr. Pivo asked about a book on country wines. I have "THe Penguin Book
of Home Brewing and Wine-Making" by W.H.T. Tayleur, second edition 1982
(ISBN 0 14 046.190 6)(1st pub 1973) in which he has 38 pages titled
"Making Cuntry Wine" and includes such favorities as rosehip, raisin,
dandelion, marigold, coffee, parsnip, broad bean, sap and the ever
famous oak leaf. The beer section of the book makes a nice counter
point to Dave Line's recipe approach in the 1970's. Where Line looks to
mimick commercial brews, Tayleur is expressing something of a
traditional home approach. He includes rowanberry ales. His literary
references are interesting. Technically, Line is really more advanced.
I also have just bought the Classic Beer Style Series "Mild Ale"
published in 1999 by David Sutula and I am really enjoying it. The
books in the series are a bit hit and miss but this one is full of the
kind of facts, opinion and beer lables that make for a very good read.
Alan in PEI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:01:29 -0300
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal@pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: More Book Talk
Dr. Pivo asked about a book on country wines. I have "The Penguin Book
of Home Brewing and Wine-Making" by W.H.T. Tayleur, second edition 1982
(ISBN 0 14 046.190 6)(1st pub 1973) in which he has 38 pages titled
"Making Country Wine" and includes such favorities as rosehip, raisin,
dandelion, marigold, coffee, parsnip, broad bean, sap and the ever
famous oak leaf. The beer section of the book makes a nice counter
point to Dave Line's recipe approach in the 1970's. Where Line looks to
mirror commercial brews, Tayleur is expressing something of a rural
traditional home approach. He includes rowanberry ales. His slightly
musty academic style and literary references are interesting. In terms
of brewing procedure, Line is really more advanced.
I also have just bought the Classic Beer Style Series "Mild Ale"
published in 1999 by David Sutula and I am really enjoying it. The
books in the series are a bit hit and miss but this one is full of the
kind of facts, opinion and beer lables that make for a very good read.
Alan in PEI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:59:23 -0500
From: "MrWES" <mrwes@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:16:12 -0500
From: rlabor@lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Accurate Carboy Temperature Reading
>From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin@intel.com>
In my chest freezers the height can make a difference, a lot of difference
in the temps measured.
>..So, any suggestions on what I can do
>differently...
I once had the thermometer probe dangling against the fridge wall, and I
moved it more to the center of the compartment and it made a big difference
in the temp accuracy. Now I bunge cord it to the glass carboy or metal keg
fermenter. This way I can get the best reading and control of temperature.
Fermentations when active can be 10 or so degrees above ambient. Until I
started taking the actual temp of the fermenter instead of the ambient, my
actual temps were much higher than I thought they were.
A great little thermometer is available from Radio Shack stores - it sells
for around $15, has a remote plastic covered probe. I have been using this
to measure temps in various ways. I attach it to the fermenters, or the
yeast flask, and anything else I want to know the temperature of. I do not
immerse it in liquid as I do not think it is waterproof.
You could try using a small fan to circulate air inside the fridge, this
should greatly even out the temperature throughout the compartment. If you
are using a refrigerator, then there may already be a fan pulling air in
from the freezer, in fact, it could be causing the cold air to concentrate
in one location. I know I can freeze lettuce if I place it too high up and
close to the back of my fridge. Adding another circulating fan may help.
Ron La Borde
Ron,
That's exactly what I did. I was having problems getting an even temperature
throughout my lager box and it was causing more diacetyl production that I
cared for. I went to Radio Shack and purchased a 3" fan and connected it to
a DC adaptor. From there I connected to my digital temp controller. I have
two milk crates in my upright freezer/lager box and my carboys sit on top of
them. I fastened the fan with zip ties to one of the milk crates, with the
air output side facing up. Now when the freezer goes on, the fan also goes
on. This was a major improvement in maintaining temperature within the box.
I also find the freezer cycles on much less than before.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:11:18 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous@pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Oxygenation with peroxide
I'd be concerned about using hydrogen peroxide in my wort that it might
oxidize the melanoidins and such leading to stale flavors. I could be wrong.
nathan in madison, wi
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:30:12 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: Ball Valve Cleaning/sanitizing
Jay Wirsig had a good idea about cleaning a ball valve.
>A recent post posed a question about ball valve cleaning (on the bottom of
>a conical fermenter) for yeast harvesting. One way of doing this is
>drilling a hole in the ball on the downstream side so that the contents
>trapped inside the ball may drain and a special cleaning lance could be
>made to insert into the ball cavity for cleaning & sanitizing.
You might be able to machine it at home if you get one of those valves that
can be disassembled. But they cost $$$. A good valve has a stainless ball
and I'm sure it's not a simple job. The other alternative is to purchase a
3-way valve and use one of the ports for cleaning. Again, $$$, but no work.
I am mulling over options for a future CC fermenter. The best option is a
butterfly valve which costs about US$100. You can get sterile connections
when using this and clover fittings, but do I really need that? Won't a
nice stainless ball valve do just as well? If you're using one and it's
working fine, please let me know by personal e-mail.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:36:26 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins@drain-all.com>
Subject: Re: HERMS system tryout and % open area
Mike Pensinger writes that his first go on his new HERMS system was less
than stellar:
"Well I brewed in the new system and had a few problems. The pump I am
using compacted the mash almost instantly . I am curious if a larger false
bottom with more open area would make a difference."
Mike, a friend of mine was using a round 10 gallon Gott cooler with a Phil's
false bottom and using the recirculation technique. He was also having
problems with compacted mashes. Even with slow recirc rates, the mash
tended to compact. Once, I watched him pull out the false bottom and we
both saw the problem: the 3/32" diameter holes are just the right size so
that a piece of grain and/or husk can get stuck in the hole. About 50% of
the holes in the false bottom were plugged with single kernels of grain and
he had to poke them out one by one. After that, he switched to a
rectangular cooler and a slotted manifold and things got much better. I
think the main difference is the geometry of the open area. The slots in
the manifold are harder to plug with the geometry of the grain. Also, when
a rectangular cooler is used, the grain bed is not as deep which I also
think helps.
Now, I have read about many brewers who use the false bottom with
recirculation and have no problems at all - I don't dispute that. I can't
explain why some brewers have success while others don't. Maybe it's the
grind that makes a difference - I don't know. But after seeing what I saw,
I went with a slotted manifold in a rectangular cooler and was able to
recirculate wide open with 3/8" tubing with no rice hulls.
To summarize, I think it's more than just % open area. The slotted manifold
doesn't come close to the % open area of a false bottom, yet it seems to
work just as well. Take a look at open area geometry (holes vs. slits) and
grain bed depth.
Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:34:06 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: freezer problems
Now that summer has suggested its arrival in bucolic NC, I
have about two weeks to build up a supply of beer in my
chest freezer to last until October. I have notice that
there's a great deal of rust in my chest freezer lately.
This is a 2 year old Whirlpool 15cu.ft. freezer and it is
pock-marked with rust all over the sides. My guess is their
coating process was less than wonderful and the condensation
in the freezer has caused gradual rusting.
Does anyone have a good solution? The freezer varies in
internal temperature between 30-55F depending on the stage
of the brewing cycle. Are there coatings I can use to stop
rust in there?
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 06:01:52 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann@senet.com.au>
Subject: Oh brother, where art thou?
G'day Lazza!
Live in the Adelaide Hills, 30 km out of Adelaide, the
capital city of South Australia.
copya, Thomas.
At 12:12 13/06/01 -0400, Larry wrote:
>Subject: role call--where in the world are you?
>
>I'm fascinated by the reach of the HBD--we have people from
>not only the U.S.A., Canada and Australia but Japan, the UK,
>Europe and South America. Since the digests are rather small
>lately, it seems like a good time to ask if people living in other
>than North America would mind telling us where they are?
>(And if you're an expatriate, what is your nationality?)
>
>Larry Maxwell
>Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:47:07 -0600
From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr@littongcs.com>
Subject: bubbles
I experienced a problem that I hadn't seen before when I went to
bottle a batch of IPA. The primary fermentation was finished after about
5 days, but I didn't have time to transfer to a secondary carboy until
the 7th day. I dry-hopped with pellets and then placed the carboy in
a basement cold-storage room for 9 days. The cold-storage room
maintains a constant temperature of 58 degrees F this time of year.
I brought the carboy to my 70 deg. F kitchen, yesterday, and started
preparing to bottle. After about 40 minutes, I noticed that the beer in the
carboy was starting to bubble, carrying tons of hop bits throughout the
previously clear beer. I don't think that fermentation has restarted due to
the
increase in temperature, since the primary fermentation was completely dead.
So I am guessing that the increase in temperature caused CO2 to come out
of solution. Is this right?
Randy Walker
Northrop Grumman
Navigation Systems
Salt Lake City, UT
801-539-1200, X-7484
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:46:47 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH@theshowdept.com>
Subject: Beer Storage
Well, the heat of summer has reached Chicago. I find that I have a
number of weddings to provide homebrew for this summer and must keep
brewing. I am all too familiar with the off flavors which can be
produced by fermenting in the 80-90F temperature range, but what about
storing beer at that range? If I am able to ferment my ales at a
reasonable range, what is likely to occur to my beer if I store it
quietly in a cornie for a few weeks at 80-90F? Are any off flavors
produced from warm storage likely to be subtle or overwhelming? I will
mostly be using Wyeast 1056 for these beers, if that makes a difference.
Thanks,
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:09:46 -0400
From: Mike Bardallis <dbgrowler@provide.net>
Subject: casking real ale
Reading the responses to Dan's question, I realize that my learned friend Ray
and others are correct in practice. I had a brief attack of
"engineeritis" that caused me to get theoretical (a rare event, thankfully). In
practice, _no_ ullage is almost impossible and undesirable, as the shive will
not easily or cleanly seat without a teense of airspace, and we all could
probably do without the attendant spray of beer displaced as the shive is driven
home. So we are all really in agreement in practical terms, if we read "no
headspace" as "minimal headspace"....
Mike Bardallis,
practically up to my headspace in beer in
scenic Allen Park, MI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:13:51 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew@compuserve.com>
Subject: re:babel
Steve suggested:
>>Del I'm so weary of you changing topics every time ....
What's this got to do with aspect ratios and yeast performance ?<<
It was in reply to your question so who changed topic?
>>. If yeast lusted for O2 there would be a
lot less ethanol in your beer.<<
That is looking at from our desires, as I mentioned the free availability
of O2 in a natural setting assists greatly in the yeasts proliferation
of the species. That we create artificial environments to guide the
products of the yeast life cycle doesn't change the yeasts basic
needs.
>>cannot explain their ability
>>to handle maltose and maltotriose and their ready adaption to anaerobic
>>conditions. Adding barley starch (not surface present nor a fruit) as
an
>>afterthought didn't erase the original error.
It doesn't *need to explain why they can utilize maltotriose, unless you
think mankind engineered brewer's yeast. My whole point was we are
using yeasts that evolved fermenting natural sources of carbohydrates,
none of these sources are meters in depth and it just could be that any
depth greater than an inch or so could affect their natural processes.
>>Adding context material that this "invention" was presented this at a
particular conference, <<
Admitting you took the quote out of context to make a point!
In context George said he picked it up from that conference.
>>There is no contradiction in statements that yeast need tiny amounts
of O2 for lipids yet don't lust after O2. <<
My only error there was using an anthropomorphic description for the
yeast's need for oxygen. I think everyone else understood what I was
intending.
>>I have NEVER stated commercial
fermenters fail due to H:W as you falsely claim I said.<<
Of course , you've been on the other side of the debate, you did mention
they fail from heat trapping and CO2 entrainment,_anything_but H:W.
My viewpoint is that these failures modes can be removed by changing
H:W. I believe that was the result of the DeClerck/Fix trials.
>>You still haven't explained why volume is now a H:W constraint when
you yourself posted that DeClerck's experiments covered a large range of
fermenter volumes.<<
You are the one that insists on controlling as many variables as
possible. How could one study the H:W effect without verifying it first
happened at the same temperatures, same wort, same yeast, same
volume, same altitude? If you could ferment a 1 liter batch in a 3:1 vessel
at a depth of *approximately 1/3 meter and a 100K liter batch in a 1:1
fermenter at a depth of 100 meters, what would that show?
Right, nothing! because *you don't want to control the volume.
To really test the effect you have to change only the H:W and nothing
else, so in relation to testing the "H:W effect" volume is a constraint.
Actually, I've noticed flavor changes due to fermenter shape long
before I read AoBT. So this is nothing new. Why you can't accept
there can be a difference remains a puzzlement. The oxygen pick up is
assuredly different, thus yeast growth, vigor and flavor developement
is different. It's really not magic. It's knowing and working the yeast
strain you are using.
NPL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:06:12 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski@adelphia.net>
Subject: Polder type thermometers
Jim Clement asked about experiences with the Polder type thermometers. I
have one and use it because of its alarm feature and timer. However, I am
very careful that only the tip gets wet. If the junction of the probe and
the braided wire gets wet, the probe will start to "wander" off in
temperature. I tried to seal the junction with a food grade silicon sealant
but that doesn't work. I have had limited success at drying it out by
putting he probe in the oven and watching the readout until it starts to
make sense.
A few years ago, there was quite a discussion in the HBD about this. I
recommend you search the archives. I seem to remember that some people
tried to cover the braid and junction with Teflon shrink tubing but that
fails after a time. I don't think anyone came up with a better solution.
Hope this helps.
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
********************************************************************
*My goal,
* Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
* (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
********************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff E <megajh73@excite.com>
Subject: RE: Ultimate Mall Crawl
I was up in Minn/St. Paul on business and found a pub called something like
"City Hall" (I think)....Great beer, good food!! I sat at the bar and
realized after a long while that I was sitting next to the brewmaster. Very
nice guy and had a lot of great ideas about making good beer. I think
Summit brewing has a pub too.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:41:05 -0500
From: Dan McFeeley <mcfeeley@keynet.net>
Subject: Re: odd books (might be off topic)
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Dr. Pivo wrote, in part:
>It just occurred to me that some of you may also be able to find a book
>I have been longing to take a look at again. I think it was called
>"country wines" or some such, was a British author, and late 60's early
>70's. . . Should anyone know the "real title" and where I could get hold
>of a copy, I'd certainly appreciate it.
Sounds like _Folk Wines, Cordials, & Brandies_ by Moritz A. Jagendorf
(New York: Vanguard Press, Inc., 1963). It's probably out of print
by now -- interlibrary loan request might track down a copy for you.
This is much more than a simple "how to" book. Jagendorf spent a lot
of time tracking down what amounts to folk lore -- i.e., the rural
folklore and traditions associated with the making of simple wines
from fruits, flowers, vegetables, and so on.
Here's a brief quote that captures the spirit of the book:
If you have a home in the country, there is the pastoral
pleasure of watching flowers grow and fruits ripen before
you transform them into good wines. I spend many pleasurable
moments following the growth of lacy elder blossums, curling
young vine leaves scented roses, elephant-eared red rhubarb,
and many other plants from which I make fresh wines.
Then there is the intimate tactile pleasure of gathering
flowers, fruits, and leaves with your own hands, renewing
the dim and veiled ancient feeling that there is a living
spirit in each of them. You begin to know the value of
rain and sunshine and clouds. You become close partners
in your work, in which you are the creator.
One may also speak of the sensuous pleasure of washing the
colored fruits in fresh, cold water and crushing them with
the palms of the hands.
Just as Wordsworth said ". . . beauty born of murmuring
sound shall pass into her face," so might I say the beauty
born of intimacy with nature's art and marvels passes into
our spirit.
Although the making of folk wines, at first glance, isn't much concerned
with brewing, there is a kindred spirit shared by old time rural brewers,
vintners, cider makers, and meadmakers. This might be a little too rough
an analogy, but I think you can compare this with the enjoyment of folk
music from the British Isles -- if you focus on, say, the bagpipe alone
you lose much of the spirit of Celtic style music.
Good luck in finding a copy!
<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfeeley@keynet.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:37:59 -0400
From: Tony Verhulst <verhulst@zk3.dec.com>
Subject: RE: HERMS system tryout
> From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr@bellatlantic.net>
> Subject: HERMS system tryout
> Well I brewed in the new system and had a few problems. The pump I am using
> compacted the mash almost instantly . I am curious if a larger false bottom
> with more open area would make a difference.
> I am curenlty using a 9 inch disk of perforated stainless. The holes a
> pretty small and I have access to a piece with 1/8 inch holes. Would these
> be too big?
My guess is that 9 inches is OK for a 5 gallon system. I use a 11.5
inch false bottom on my 10 gallon RMS system and have no problems. 1/8
may be a little too big but that's better than too small. Too small will
clog you up pretty quickly. My false bottom was "store bought" and is
made by Advanced Brewing Techniques. I love it.
> I have also coltemplated a speed control for the pump. I figured I could
> get decent control with just a dimmer switch. Has anyone else done this (I
> know it is not the correct way)?
Yup, thats what I use. I think (hope) that my Recirculating Mash System
web page will supply answers to some of your questions:
http://www.world.std.com/~verhulst/RIMS/rims.htm
Tony V.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:53:13 -0000
From: "Bill Dubas" <bill_dubas@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Finnish Sahti Recipe
Hi Jay;
I also have tried Sahti and agree that it is quite a unique beer. I live in
Dallas and work for Nokia, which is based in Finland, and have had the
opportunity to travel to Finland on business a few times. The only problem
is that I am always staying in Oulu, a city that is much farther north. The
Sahti "district" is closer to Helsinki, as you have described. I have only
tried the sahti made by Finlandia.
My attempts at making sahti have yielded mixed results. I have found that
the key to this beer is using the Finnish bakers' yeast. The yeast comes in
2 cubic-inch blocks wrapped in wax paper and is the consistency of a soft
cheese. It is available in the dairy section of most Finnish grocery
stores. I have used dried powdered yeast and it has not yielded the same
flavor/aroma profile. As I have plenty of coworkers in Finland, I am lucky
to have a ready supply source of this yeast.
One item that is not included in the recipe that you have provided is
juniper. Many recipes state that the mash is to be filtered through a bed
of fresh juniper twigs. This infuses a resiny aroma that can be quite
interesting too. I was not able to find juniper for my sahti (I was told
that some ornamental varieties are poisonous and did not want to risk it) so
I used crushed juniper berries in the mash. As you have stated, the wort is
not boiled. As a result, the beer is full of complex proteins, etc. that
would normally have precipitated out in the break during the boil. I have
entered Sahti in a few competitions but it has not done well. It has a VERY
limited shelf life and is best consumed within a week or two of brewing.
Most competitions require entries to be submitted much earlier and the
flavor has changed drastically by judging time.
In doing research for this style, I ran across a web page that has lots of
useful info. Try viewing http://beer.tcm.hut.fi/Sahti/
Regards;
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:09:15 -0400
From: stencil <stencil@bcn.net>
Subject: homebrewed hops plugs
There's 14 strings of Liberty out back, all at 20 ft, and
it looks like a bumper year. I have a mind to make my own
hops plugs, a'la Hanbury's Hoplets and similar commercial
offerings. Typically these are 1/2-oz units, disks about
1-1/2" diam and about an inch thick (40 X 25 mm?). I'm
envisioning a PVC pipe cylinder and a maple or oak piston
and head, actuated horizontally with a scissors jack, all
secured to piece of scrap decking.
Is there anyone who has done this, or who has experience
with commercial practice? Should I do any preliminary
drying or should I provide channels for juice runoff? Is
PVC or ABS stout enough for the forces involved? Should I
try to build up the plugs with multiple strata or just
shovel it in and drive it home? *sigh* It's a complex
world.
stencil sends
RKBA!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:35:31 -0400
From: Gary M Chumney <garychumney@juno.com>
Subject: Fruit Puree
Do to a crash of my computer I lost the daata that had been listed as to
the sugars and other items in Oregon fruit products. What I would like
is to be able to predict the final SRM of all the produxcts and their
degree of of fermentation. I use them in a lot of different types of
beers and some wines but I have not got the necessary information that I
would like to have in order to plug it into Pro-Mash.
Gary Chumney
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:27:03 -0700
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin@intel.com>
Subject: Carboy temp results
Thanks for all the suggestions & info both on & off-list. It sounds like I
need to get one of those Radio Shack thermometers since it was mentioned
about 8 times. Ron La Borde gave me the idea of why there might be such a
big temp difference between my carboy & the thermometer I have. The carboy
is sitting in the floor of the fridge, where the meat & vegetable drawers
would be. The cup with the floating thermometer is on a shelf about chest
height so it would be easy to get to. I'm guessing that the meat &
vegetable drawer area are chilled more than the upper part of the fridge, so
last night I put the floating thermometer on the floor with the carboy.
This morning, the Fermometer & thermometer were within a few degrees of each
other. So, that's one mystery solved. Unfortunately, I still think my
Johnston Controller is broken since it only turns the fridge on now when I
set it for 50 degrees or below & the carboy is at 72.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:50:19 -0700
From: "John Todd Larson" <larson@amazon.com>
Subject: oxygenation filter: is it needed?
I have the reverse-threaded regulator for use on the benzomatic-type oxygen
cylinders. My set-up came with a small in-line filter that recently became
damaged. if I santize the tubes, etc., is the filter REALLY necessary? I
am brewing this weekend (my father's day choice), and don't have a usable
filter. Any ideas regarding a filter I could make at home? How about a
clean cotton ball wedged into a pill bottle or other container with the
plastic tubing going in one side and out the other? Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Todd
larson@amazon.com
(206) 266-4367
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:21:14 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: "sucrose" taste
Steve Alexander writes:
> Ages ago, before Dr.Pivo developed his talent for rudeness (snip)
>
Actually the "talent" has existed for quite some time; I believe. It is
what is called a "hidden" talent.
After the age of about 13; I had never seemed to have found a use for
it. That is, not until "the gang of four" made their elbows known on
HBD..... The rare combination of spurious comments, a propensity for
argumentation, and an absolute tenacity about never admitting error....
combined with that wonderful aspect of very little brewing experience
outside of "doing what they always do" (a fact which is quite obvious to
anyone who hasn't followed the exact same path)!..... and Hey Steve!
You apparently just bring out the best in me!
(snip continued)
> he asked my if I
> had a clue as to why beers with a lot of added "table sugar" tasted
cidery.
>
Since quoting wars seem to be the vogue, I'll re-state the REAL
question, and see if someone else might have the answer...
I was always curious about why there seemed to be an obvious difference
in taste between beers where sucrose (white, table sugar) were used, and
those where it was not.
I even flatter my much abused taste buds, that I can pick out a beer in
which only the priming was done with sucrose (I call it a "metallic" or
"artificial sweetener" taste), which is pretty low amounts of the total
carbo load.
In fact, it seems that standard "home brewing procedure" is to use "corn
sugar" ((Glucose, dextrose, alpha-D glucose, grape sugar etc..... ahhh
the names
we give our little darlings), instead of "white sugar" whenever one
thinks one needs to throw in some simple stuff, and many consider this a
true "taste advantage".
If this is truly the case (and I would be one who could easily believe
it was); I sort of put out a public call (started on RCB) for two
things:
1) Won't some homebrew club or "SOMEONE" simply prime a beer half with
corn sugar, and half with table sugar and then "triangulate" it and see
if I (and a lot of other folks) are just kidding myself (ourselves).
I feel personally enough conviction in this question, that I'm not about
to let sucrose anywhere near my beer, but I've never "proved" it.
Naturally, with all the North American chatter, there wasn't a single
body who would brew it.... and a quadrillion who could talk about it.
A Dutchman on the other hand responded to the call.... his observations
on both fermentation rate, and final flavour are quite interesting.....
sorry, I won't share them here.... I really think it's time for some of
you slackers to start brewing some stuff (BTW... if you want to repeat
this simple little spurment, pull 5 percent off the weight of the
sucrose lot, to match the glucose one.... happy to discuss "why" off
line).
2) (and this is the big one) "WHY".
May seem silly, but to put it in simple terms: "sucrose" (table sugar)
is made up of two simple sugars glued together called glucose (our
friend "corn sugar") and fructose (sometimes called "fruit sugar).
Now it turns out that glucose and fructose are the exact same collection
of atoms.... it's just sort of like glucose is hanging one leg outside
the boat, and fructose is hanging two.
Now to get weirder, we might say the "cornerstone" of all of what a
yeast cell (and indeed ourselves when we aren't "breathing") is doing,
is based on knocking apart glucose. And what's the first thing that
they (and we) do with it?........ They jerk another leg out of the boat
and turn it into fructose!
So yeast, when fed sucrose do the following... they belch out an enzyme
to knock the sucrose into glucose and fructose... take up these two
simple sugars, the glucose gets turned into fructose and both of them
head down the food factory chain.....
And what happens if they get fed two glucose (corn sugar) molecules
instead?
They take them both up, they both get turned into fructose, and end up
with the same fate.
So the whole thing seems a bit paradoxical that there should be a
percievable
difference in taste, and I asked everyone who
might have an answer: "why". Steve Alexander seemed to be a guy with
access to a good "food science technology" library, and a lot of time on
his hands.... so I asked him too.
He did not have an answer, or could find one in the literature....
in fact if he is proposing a "low amino
acid ratio" answer, he may not have understood the question.
He did however absolutely refute (I know this may be hard to believe)
One of
the contributions that I thought most clever (from someone in Colorado
as I recall).... that perhaps it is the belched out enzyme that breaks
down sucrose (called "invertase") that is the foul tasting culprit.
Steve reckoned that since Tofu is made up of large proteins and is
pretty tasteless, and invertase is a big protein, that couldn't
be the answer.
Well, I guess it's back to the library for Steve..... but if anyone else
has an answer or theory about this, I really am a pretty good
listener.... maybe because it's more important for me to "find out" than
it is to be "right" from the start.
And if anyone would like to do the spurment, I'd certainly be happy to
contribute the thoughts I've had on how to set it up, and even how one
could go one step further and compare with wort priming.
As to the "why", I've got a lot of conjecture on that, that has to do
with rate limiting steps in metabolism, and substrate overload that
pushes products down alternate pathways..... but it is just that....
conjecture.
Sometimes it might be more important to find out just how significant
a difference some steps make in brewing, before asking why, or inferring
that there is a large difference because theoretically it should be.
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3659, 06/14/01
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