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HOMEBREW Digest #3634
HOMEBREW Digest #3634 Wed 16 May 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
RE: Fermenting in a Refridgerator (Ken Schwartz)
Re: counterflow woes ("RJ")
Czechvar (I/T)" <stjones@eastman.com>
Re: Bicarbonate precipitation ("RJ")
counterflow woes (Eric Jacobs)
Re: fridge help ("RJ")
RE: CFC Woes / Malt Mill Motor ("Steven Parfitt")
BOOZE TRUTHS (kbooth)
re: Glycogen level ? ("Stephen Alexander")
Re: sparging (Jeff Renner)
Yeast Ranching ("Weaver Joseph Todd Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM")
cranberries (Marc Sedam)
Re: Veltins (Jeff Renner)
Re: Bicarbonate precipitation (Jeff Renner)
RE: Sparging ("Doug Hurst")
re:counterflow chiller woes ("Joseph Marsh")
RE: Malt Mill Motor HP (LaBorde, Ronald)
CF, yeast and beer bullets ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Water (AJ)
RE: PubCrawl Portland, Oregon ("RYAN WILLIS")
re: Ala & Fl Beers??? ("Peter Pellemans")
Re: chiller (Steven)
re: Spurments and fermenter geometry. ("Stephen Alexander")
Wildbreww III (pursley)
WARNING DANGER ("Stephen Alexander")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 05:29:42 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob@elp.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Fermenting in a Refridgerator
Jeff Storm asks about ways to control fermentation temperature.
There are a number of ways to accomplish this. The refrigerator and
controller you mention is one way. Immersing the fermentaer in a tub of
water and adding frozen jugs of water (or blue ice thingies) is fairly
effective if crude and uncontrolled. In dryer climates a t-shirt placed
over the fermenter and kept wet can provide a few degrees of evaporative
cooling.
Another method involves an insulated foam box using a fan and thermostat
to circulate ice-chilled air and maintain a constant, controlled
fermentation temperature. See the latest (May/June) Zymurgy or
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer for details about building one. A kit
is also available.
- --
*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob@elp.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:38:57 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing@cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: counterflow woes
This is in response to "counterflow woes" in HBD #3633....
Hi Steven,
I've been using the same method now for at least 8 years... Simply, purchase
a stainless steel "chore boy" pot scrubber, wrap it around the end of the
dip tube (so that at least half of it sits beyond the tube end) and tie with
a rubber band, then place a muslin hop bag over that and tie it off. Very
little, if any hop debris, gets thru. This method works very well with both
cones and T-90's.
The components are re-usable a number of times, provided you clean them as
soon as you thru with the counterflow procedure.
As far as putting hops in a hop bag, well IMHO, this may solve your problem
somewhat but you will most likely loose on hop utilization which may or may
not pose a bigger problem in the finished results.
Ciao.
RJ
- ----- Original Message ----- >
> Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:29:00 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
> Subject: counterflow woes
>
>
> As of late i've had some problems utilizing my counterflow chiller. Seems
> i get clogging problems with hops in my brewpot when i suction out. I
> managed to salvage the previous batch by just scrapping the chiller and
> cooling the wort with ice/water bath, this time after much frustration i
> just chucked the whole damn batch down the drain.
>
> I've got the fearless chiller and quite like it, works great with my
> apartment-brewery but this clogging is quite frustrating. I made a screen
> filter utilizing a faucet filter with some 3/8 hose jammed in side with
> this wrapped inside a stainless "lint" filter, basically a nice wire
> mesh. This worked for all of 6 seconds till it was covered in hop bitz &
> goo.
>
> Would putting the hops in hopbags improve matters? Some hop particles
> would make it thru the bag, would this tend to clog the chiller? How do
> you guys keep from clogging your counterflows?
>
> At present my "best" idea is to get a stainless screen/plate about the
> diameter of my brew pot and drop it in, ala a coffee press, to push the
> hops and goo to the bottom, siphoning from on top of this. Maybe a false
> bottom?
>
> Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl@mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:49:43 -0400
From: "Jones, Steve (I/T)" <stjones@eastman.com>
Subject: Czechvar
Greetings fellow brewers,
A fellow club member brought a new beer to our meeting last night. Czechvar.
He said that A-B and Budvar had come to an agreement over their trademark
fight, and Budvar is now marketed in the US as Czechvar. They retain the
right to the Budvar name in Europe, and A-B can use the Budweiser name in
Czechoslovakia. He picked up a 6-pack last week over in Asheville (NC).
Has anyone else seen this beer? Has anyone seen an official story on the
A-B/Budvar agreement?
Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN
5:47:38.9 S, 1:17:37.5 E Rennerian
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:53:31 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing@cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Bicarbonate precipitation
Hi Dan,
The acids that are most commonly used in brewing are either Lactic or
Phosphoric...
Lactic acid should be available at most HB shops... Generally in solution at
60 - 88%.
You'll need either pH test strips or a pH meter to figure out what you need,
note that you should utilize them after cooling to wort, as temperature will
change the results.
You may do better if you use either distilled water and add chemicals or a
mixture of what you have along with distilled water, say 2/3 distilled along
with 1/3 your water.
Ciao,
RJ
- ----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 05:15:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Temple <danatemple@yahoo.com>
Subject: Bicarbonate precipitation
My water has a HCO3(-) content of 350mg/l, and a
Ca(2+) content of 100 mg/l. If I want to reduce the
ion content to get closer to Pilsen water, I read that
boiling for 10 minutes will do the trick, as it will
precipitate the bicarbonate as insoluble Calcium
Carbonate. However, even assuming complete
precipitation, this will only get rid of 100 mg/l HCO3
(Ca(2+) + HCO3(-) => CaCO3 + H(+) ?). Still leaving a
huge 250 mg/l HCO3.
Acid is mentioned in several texts, but without
mentioning which acid (something non-toxic with an
insoluble carbonate I guess), or how much to add.
Anyone have any experience doing this?
Another question - texts (like Daniels) seem to refer
to carbonate and bicarbonate completely at random,
swapping between uses evey other sentence, and
sometimes quoting one and not the other in a water
analysis example. What's the real story? My water
company only quotes bicarbonate (HCO3).
Dane
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:09:24 GMT
From: eljacobs@bellsouth.net (Eric Jacobs)
Subject: counterflow woes
Steven asks about clogging problems:
>I've got the fearless chiller and quite like it, works great with my
>apartment-brewery but this clogging is quite frustrating. I made a screen
>filter utilizing a faucet filter with some 3/8 hose jammed in side with
>this wrapped inside a stainless "lint" filter, basically a nice wire
>mesh. This worked for all of 6 seconds till it was covered in hop bitz &
>goo.
I've used a similar setup, and had similar problems off and on.
(Incredibly frustrating, isn't it?) I don't know how fine a mesh your
lint filter is, but my strainer is made from the SS braid off of a
reinforced water hose, and it's a very close, fine mesh. I found that
pellet hops clog it up instantly, but whole hops work great, acting as
a filter bed for all the hot break goo. So if you're using pellets,
you might want to try switching to whole hops. I can also imagine
that if your lint filter is too coarse a mesh, some hops are getting
through and clogging the tubing- I had that happen when I first
started using the chiller, before I had the filter all worked out. If
you think that might be happening, I highly recommend trying the
reinforced hose braid, it's worked really well for me. (And it would
only cost a few $ for the hose, and a few minutes hacking it up to get
the braid off- worth a try.)
- --
Eric Jacobs
eljacobs@bellsouth.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:25:52 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsbrewing@cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: fridge help
Hi Bob,
I had a similar problem with mine... Happened to get one of those remote
thermometers for Christmas one year and found that I too was having a
similar problem, unbeknowst...
Found that if I strategically placed a "muffin" fan inside the chest (on the
floor) opposite the condenser coil box, that I could then maintain a
constant temperature of +/-2.5F.... The fan is setup to be always on, versus
just comming on with the controller (I found this out thru further
experimentation). If you have a lot of kegs/carboys in the freezer you may
need to place additional fans or set the kegs/carboys so that they do not
impede the air flow.
Ciao,
RJ
- ----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:35:35 -0400
From: "Bob" <bsmntbrewr@home.com>
Subject: fridge help
Brewers,
I need the Fridge Guy! or anyone else for that matter on
this one.....
I checked the archives and such but I don't have hours to
spend looking through that kind of volume, so here goes...
Chest freezer, no idea of brand, (bought used a couple of
years ago) used with Johnson Controls temp controller,
freezer stays on all the time and can only get down to 41*F.
Likely culprits and trouble shooting advice desired. What
do I need to know here?
Bob Bratcher
Roanoke, VA
Star City Brewers Guild
http://hbd.org/starcity
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:46:33 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: CFC Woes / Malt Mill Motor
Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net is experiencing problems with draining via
his CFC
>As of late i've had some problems utilizing my counterflow chiller. >Seemsi
>get clogging problems with hops in my brewpot when i suction >out.
Go hence to your cleaning section of your local store of preparable
mass-consumables and purchase a copper scrubbie. (make sure it is all
copper). Then go to your local automobile supply store and purchase a band
clamp. Afix the copper scrubbie to the end of your racking cane by wraping
the scrubbie around it with half of it protruding past the end of said
racking cane, and secure with said band clamp. Scrubbie end goes in tank.
Feed CFC from other end of said prepared racking cane.
Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot@cisco.com> wishes to morotize his Valey Mill:
>Does anyone have a recommendation for a minimum HP rating for electric
> >motors to drive a malt mill?In particular I have a Valley Mill. I'm in
> >scrounge mode to find a motor......so far I have a 1/60 HP fan motor
> >that I took from an old dehumidifier.ThanksChuckM
Been there, did that, didn't work. 1/60hp is way too small. I ended up using
a 1/3hp motor with two sets of shieves and an intermediat shaft to reduce
the speed to 130r/m. 5.5:1.5 * 5.5:1.5 * 1750 = 130rpm
Based on the results with the 1/3hp motor, I believe you could get by with a
1/4hp motor, but I doubt you can use anything smaller.
Steven
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:54:29 -0400
From: kbooth <kbooth@waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: BOOZE TRUTHS
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:34:57 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Glycogen level ?
Del Lansing writes ...
>I left some ambiguity in the question mostly because a scenario could be
>created where *either one would be correct. A culture such a "B" (high
>glycogen and high mortality) is probably what most brewers get when
>they feed a stored culture the day before brewing.
The labile glycogen will disappear in 2 to 6 hours after hitting a yeast
with O2 (even aerated water) and despite alternative descriptions in the
literature the graph of progressive assays I see show the glycogen level
building steadily throughout a brewery fermentation during the log
(exponential) growth period. Not achieving high glycogen status till
40hours later under ideal conditions. I would expect longer if the yeast
are hit with more O2, or if carbos form a growth limit (as when a yeastcake
is revived with a small amount of wort.
Feeding a culture aerated wort a day before pitching is a formula for low
glycogen yeast - which isn't had if they are sterol rich.
>>
>>It was Fix who pickup up this old bone and claimed ludicrously poor
>>fermentation in upright cornies because of the H:W ratio.<<
> I'm not sure I would characterize his conclusions as saying "ludicrously
>poor fermentations". He did say consistent degrees of attenuation and
>consistent and lower diacetyl levels.
AoBT suggests 2 extra days of fermentation and extremely high (350ppb)
diacetyl levels. If I had a beer that took two extra days and was green as
grass I'd consider it a very serious problem.
Back in March re the CC discussion Mr.Fix posted that a fermentation in a
corny takes twice as long (22-24 days vs 11-12 days) and finished 4 to 8
SG degrees above proper FG. That to me is ludicrously bad and this beer
would be sloshing thru the sewer and receiving some "what went wrong"
analysis. I don't see such problems - even rarely - with decent yeast and
wort practices.
>It was those two points that lead me to my conclusion that small fermenters
>with virtually no temperature, pressure, or CO2 gradients must have
>something in common that would affect these two brewing concerns
>(attenuation, diacetyl). The first thing that comes to my mind would be
>the oxygen accessibility.
You're assuming an open ferment (which I had not considered). You may be
right (AoBT discusses advantages of open ferments immediately subsequent
to the geometry discussion). At least this argument points to a factor
which is
known to impact yeast metabolism rather than one which clearly doesn't.
I tend to discount this hypothesis though. We all know that decent yeast in
well aerated wort will ferment to proper FG even in a closed fermenter where
the added O2 after pitching would be low.
Also, As DocPivo pointed out, O2 after kreusen is responsible for increased,
not decreased diacetyl. The question is why didn't the yeast reassimilate
the near-peak levels of diacetyl and we are left staring poor yeast health
as the likely cause of poor attenuation + high levels of unresolved
diacetyl.
Of course other factors could be at play like infection or unusual
temperature
regimes but we have to assume these were controlled factors in the
experiment,
>> But
>> my point remains - it may be CO2 levels or O2 inclusion or something
else,
>> but its almost certainly not geometry.
>But the geometry allows greater contact to the atmosphere in a 1:1 HW
>ratio. 85% increase in contact due to geometry is significant. So right,
it could
>(probably) be oxygen uptake but that ultimate level of O2 would be
determined by
>geometry.
The hypothesis about geometry impacting surface area so oxygen
uptake demonstrates an argument that does not support the H:W
geometry argument. An BB&MB type CC has the same surface area to
volume ratio as a cornelius keg with 3.75 gallons of wort so we should
expect similar O2 diffusion into the wort. A test tube fermenter may
have a 5:1 H:W ratio yet a much higher surface:volume ratio than
either of the above fermenters. O2 inclusion is not determined by H:W
ratios.
Surface diffusion may well be a factor that impacts O2 inclusion and
yeast performance (tho closed fermenters work nicely too), but this
doesn't support the H:W ratio => yeast performance argument.
>Perhaps you don't look at cause & effect as commutative, I see it
>as the geometry caused O2 uptake, the O2 uptake caused
>increased yeast health, the geometry caused improved yeast
>health (indirectly).
You've described an associative relationship not a commutative one.
Cause and effect are (in a manner) associative, while correlation is
commutative.
What is wrong with this argument is that geometry does not dictate (cause)
O2 levels nor surface: volume ratios. To demonstrate a cause and
effect relationship one must show that under defined conditions with causal
variable is present the effect appears and when absent the effect does not
appear - ALL OTHER FACTORS HELD CONSTANT.
Geometry may (under other well defined and limited conditions) correlate
with improved yeast performance, but it does not cause it. Just as a
Ferrari emblem on a car correlates with a fast vehicle, but does
not cause it to be fast.
>Fortunately this one thing (of the things we've discussed) could be easily
>tested by nitrogen purging the test fermenters after normal inline aeration
>[...]
I agree. But before demonstrating the 'effect' is extinguished by removing
O2, you must show that the effect can be reproduced under your
experimental conditions. You'll need to reliably produce better
fermentations
in one geometry than another, then remove the compounding variable of
surface O2. I've still an open wager that this cannot be demonstrated with
any statistical significance.
>Unfortunately most people don't like being told they are flat out wrong
>"in certain cases",
If it can be conveyed as relating to the subject matter rather than the
person then it can't be an issue. No discussion is interesting or of value
unless there are dissenting points of view. When people disagree on factual
matters one or more of them is in error. If we are civil toward one another
and show respect for the person - it's 'Meet the Press' or perhaps 'The
McLaughlin Report', If we descend to arguments of personality it's just the
'Jerry Springer Show'.
But the personal attacks ... an argument must stand or fall on it's own
merit, and not on the status, stupidity, civility or speculation of the
proponent. I'm guilty of responding in kind to personal attacks, but I am
target (for some obvious reasons) to an above average number. To the extent
it takes bandwidth from beer issues, escalates the problem, or is due to our
medium with it's poor ability to convey intent - it's a problem. To the
extent it is a 'dose of their own medicine' for folks who rob a discussion
of it's proper bearings by pointing at personality rather than the actual
issues - it's still a bad thing, but a deterrent to worse. Are my hands
clean on this issue ? No way, but I try to exercise a 'no first strike'
policy and a willingness to step down hostilities as soon as the initiator.
I'm still reformulating my M.A.D. policy of the 1996-8
fermentability/Clinitest wars ;^) .
Remember too that I studied HBD argumentation under the tutelage of master
Dave Burley. Tho' rain may roll off a duck's back it is said that Dave owns
no umbrella as rain will change course to avoid his rejoinder !
-S
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:43:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: sparging
Jim Cuny [himsbrew@aol.com] srote:
>greetings, I'm about to go all-grain soon.
>can someone tell me the reason that it is
>better to use a sparge arm set-up as opposed
>to just running the water onto the grain bed
>and maintaining an inch or so of water on top?
I can't tell you why it's better because I do what you suggest and it
works fine for me. I think that it comes from how commercial brewers
do it. Due to the size of the lauter tun, they have to ensure that
the water is spread uniformly across the grain bed. In my 16 inch
diameter mash/lauter tun, it's no problem just running the water via
a hose from the sparge water vessel onto the grain bed.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:57:09 +0200
From: "Weaver Joseph Todd Capt. 39MDG/SGOAM"
Subject: Yeast Ranching
Giving my first try at using an aquarium pump to aerate my yeast starters.
Would like to brew this weekend. I keep a culture stored in the fridge in a
flask under starter / beer. A couple of days before brewing, I pull it out
of the fridge, drain off the beer, and pitch another 500ml of starter on
top. It usually takes off within a few hours. On brew day, I inoculate a
second flask, let it go to krausen, and put that one in the fridge to save
for the next brew day. It's Tuesday night now here in Turkey, and I would
like to have my yeast ready to brew on Sunday. Pulled the flask out of the
fridge at lunch today. Plan to hook up the pump and prepare 500ml of wort
tonight or tomorrow. My culture is a 1056 Ale yeast.
Question: If I use my pump to aerate for 24 hours or so to grow up the
culture, how long can the culture sit around at room temperature before
there is an adverse effect on viability?
Todd in Turkey
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:57:45 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: cranberries
It is very likely that the addition of cranberry juice dropped
the pH of your wort enough to suppress fermentation. Cranberry
juice is one of the more acidic fruit juices around, that's why
it's often better to add the juice at bottling. In any event,
try to find a good pH meter and bring the pH of your wort up to
around 4.8-5. Pitch massive amounts of dry yeast to try and get
this fermenting. Don't toss it until you know it's infected.
Worst case scenario is to leave this in a carboy and try to make
a lambic!
Cheers!
- --
Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:55:22 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Veltins
Bill Frazier <billfrazier@worldnet.att.net> asks about Veltins, a
German Pilsener from the Rheinland:
>I don't believe it's
>brewed with Saaz as it tastes different from my all-saaz pilsners. Has
>anyone else tried this beer and do you have a clue as to what hops are used?
I've enver tasted it, but I suspect that it would be hopped with
German hops such as Hallertauer (Mittlefrue, Hersbrucker?) or
Tetnanger.
Michael Jackson says this in his 7th edition Pocket Guide to Beer (p.47):
The brewery led the movement to specialty Pilsener brewing in Germany
and is owed a debt of fashionability by its fellow "Premium Pilsener"
producers, especially its neighbors in Sauerland. Its Veltins
Pilsener (2 stars out of four) still has something of a cult
following. It has the grassy, new-mown hay character of a
traditional German lager and is on the sweet side. When served
really fresh, it has an elegant hop character."
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:00:21 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Bicarbonate precipitation
Dan Temple <danatemple@yahoo.com> writes:
>My water has a HCO3(-) content of 350mg/l, and a
>Ca(2+) content of 100 mg/l. If I want to reduce the
>ion content to get closer to Pilsen water, I read that
>boiling for 10 minutes will do the trick, as it will
>precipitate the bicarbonate as insoluble Calcium
>Carbonate. However, even assuming complete
>precipitation, this will only get rid of 100 mg/l HCO3
>(Ca(2+) + HCO3(-) => CaCO3 + H(+) ?). Still leaving a
>huge 250 mg/l HCO3.
I'll leave your other questions to AJ DeLange or someone else who
might be able to address them better, but I can help you on this part.
Several things to consider - you forgot to consider the molecular
weight of Ca+2 and HCO3-1. One mole of Ca+2 weighs 40g, a mole of
HCO3-1 weighs 61g, so 100 mg/l Ca+2 will react with 153 mg/l of
HCO3-1, leaving somewhat less than you thought - ~200 mg/l. Still,
not low enough (although you don't need to get it as low as Pilsen's
water).
The second thing to consider is your Mg+2 level as it will also
precipitate out.
But what I do with my water, which is similar to yours, is add CaCl2
during the boil. This provides extra Ca+2 to precipitate out. I
boil the night before and let it settle out overnight. Of course, it
also adds Cl-1, which could be a problem at high levels, but It works
well for my pilsners.
You could also use gypsum, CaSO4, but you don't want very high levels
of SO4-2 as it creates a harsh bitterness. I must say, however, that
commercial breweries have used gypsum for years, so maybe this isn't
too much of a problem. Anheuser Busch uses sulfuric acid, but at
pretty low levels.
AJ has described the use of CaOH for treating alkaline water, which
also causes the precipitation of CaCO3. I haven't used this because
it requires more figuring than I have been willing to do, but it is
much more energy efficient.
BTW, while only bicarbonate ions exist in your water, it is
convention to report this as carbonate, and this is probably why
authors use them interchangeably.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:06:15 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH@theshowdept.com>
Subject: RE: Sparging
Jim writes:
"can someone tell me the reason that it is
better to use a sparge arm set-up as opposed
to just running the water onto the grain bed
and maintaining an inch or so of water on top?"
The purpose of sparging is to separate the "sweet liquor" from the grain
and to filter out the husks and small particles. Sparge arms are used
to evenly and (more importantly) gently distribute the sparge water over
the top of the grain bed. If the water is simply poured over the top,
troughs can form down into the grain bed. This defeats the filtering
properties of the grain and your wort will not clarify.
You don't necessarily need a sparge arm, but you do need to run your
sparge water very gently into the mash. Another way to do this is to
submerge your sparge water output hose horizontally just below the
surface of the water on top of the grain bed. It will form a slow
whirlpooling effect and should not disrupt the grain bed.
Hope this helps,
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:49:52 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62@hotmail.com>
Subject: re:counterflow chiller woes
The only filter I use is a stainless steel scrubby. It fits over the 1/2
inch pipe pickup tube which I angle at about 30 degrees in order to get the
right clearance from the bottom and to get out of the exact center of the
pot. I could use different lengths of pipe to get the same effect but this
works fine the way it is. (The right clearance is simply 'don't compress the
scrubby pad'.)
Currently I don't have a pump so my flow rate is fairly low. Hop bags will
keep the mud out of your chiller but you need to use about 10% more hops
because utilization goes down. I remove the bags at the end of the boil to
keep THEM from clogging the pick up. I use whole hops and pellets depending
on what I have on hand. If I'm making something without a lot of hops I
don't use bags at all.
With my setup I lose about 2 quarts of wort left behind as a fairly thick
mud.
Hope this helps,
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:14:19 -0500
From: rlabor@lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Malt Mill Motor HP
>From: Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot@cisco.com>
>
>Does anyone have a recommendation for a minimum HP rating for electric
>motors to drive a malt mill?
>
>......so far I have a 1/60 HP fan motor that I took from an old
>dehumidifier.
Forget that, you will need about 1/3 HP or more. If your motor HP is too
low, things may seem alright at first, but if you need to stop and restart
the mill loaded, then you might have some stalling.
If you look around and find a washing machine out on the curb or at the junk
yard, you can get a great motor at little cost. I got mine from a Kenmore
washing machine. It is a 1/2 HP 2 speed motor. I use the lower speed which
allows me to use a smaller 7 inch pulley on the mill. This motor is a
capacitor start which has incredible starting torque. Your can see how I
used it by checking some photos on the web site below.
Ron La Borde
Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor@lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:30:22 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: CF, yeast and beer bullets
Steven St.Laurent writes of counterflow woes:
>As of late i've had some problems utilizing my counterflow chiller. Seems
> get clogging problems with hops in my brewpot when i suction out. ...
Putting the hops in hopbags would certainly improve matters if you're using
pellets AND the mesh is fine enough. Sometimes muslin bags have a coarse
mesh, allowing the hop particles to get out. So your best bet is to use a
plastic hop bag or even a stainless mesh steeping ball. One drawback with a
stainless steeping ball: A 3" dia. ball will only hold 1/2 oz to 3/4 oz of
pellets. Any more and they will swell with wort and fill the entire ball,
thereby reducing your utilization. Your best bet would be to go to whole
hops or plugs, but they are not always readily available. Whole hops and
plugs are too big to plug up the screens and actually would make a fine
filter for trub.
Peter A. Ensminger asked about reusing yeast:
>My impression is that the yeast in the sediment that remains
>after a batch of beer has fermented, although abundant,
>would be in a physiological state unfavorable for
>fermentation of beer. What say ye award winners and yeast
>geeks?
Yeast geek here. I've used the cakes of previous ferments in the past -
sometimes washing, sometimes not. Basic rule of thumb: If the first batch
tastes good and hasn't sat on the cake for long, then use it for the second.
I've gotten EXPLOSIVE results with short lags and super attenuation this
way. However, do not use a cake from a high grav beer (barleywine, scotch
ale, old ale, etc...) for your second ferment. In layman's terms - it's
tired. If you're forced to use it or if you're just a glutton for
punishment, then take a quart or pint slurry, wash it and feed it some well
aerated starter wort. The addition of a little yeast nutrient to the
starter won't hurt either. Pitch at high kraeusen and you should be good to
go.
Now I want to toot my own horn...
After brewing in a condo for a number of years using the stovetop and two 5
gallon kettles, I now own a home with a basement and backyard! No more
condo rules banning the use of LP gas! No more throwing wet towels over my
fermenters in the summer! No more 6 hour mess in the kitchen! Time to go
to town on those 1/2 barrel kegs with a sawzall and purchase a cajun cooker!
What hon? but... but... OK.
SWMBO said I can't play Brewmeister until I finish unpacking the china,
replace the upstairs toilet, mow the lawn, trim the hedges, powerwash the
house and clean up the basement - something about priorities. Damnit!
Boy am *I* gonna rack up the beer bullets on her!
Glen Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net
www.pannicke.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:34:51 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Water
350 mg/L bicarb is 350/61 = 5.7 mEq/L and 100 mg/L Ca++ is 100/20 = 5
mEq/L thus if all the calcium precipitated it would strip out 5 mEq/L of
the bicarb leaving 0.7 which is 42.7 mg/L - considerably more than is
found in Pilsen water. Furthermore, simple boiling won't drop all the
calcium. It's considered that you have done a good job if you
decarbonate down to 1 mEq/L or 61 mg/L. You can get more of the bicarb
by use of lime and supplemental calcium but this is a bit involved and
really requires a pH meter. It's generally much simpler to just boil the
water, decant and dilute with distilled or RO water. Equal parts of
deionized and boiled water will do but 3:1 or even 4:1 will get you
closer to the water you want which is really quite soft. These heftier
dilutions also protect agains sulfate levels which must be quite low if
real Bohemian hop character is to be acheived.
Any acid will do to overcome the alkalinity of high levels of
bicarbonate but each has its anion which flavors the beer. Sulfuric is
fine for ale brewing where a high sulfate content is desired.
Hydrochloric contributes Cl- which is generally flavor positive.
Phosphoric is popular because it is perhaps the most flavor neutral.
Organic acids (lactic, citric) tend to be quite flavorful which is a
problem in most beers. The foregoing ignores things like where you are
going to obtain food grade sulfuric or hydrochloric acids ( phosphoric,
lactic and citric are readily available) and whether you should be
handling them.
But consider what happens with, for example, the water described.
Assuming the water is at pH 8.3 to start (because that makes the math
easy) your alkalinity would be about 285 ppm as CaCO3 of which your
calcium hardness of 250 would "neutralize" 71 in the mash tun leaving
178 to be dealt with otherwise. This is 3.6 mEq/L. Were it to be
supplied by sulfuric acid that would result in 3.6 mEq/L sulfate or
about 172 mg/L being added to the water - certainly enough to totally
destroy the hops quality of anything purporting to be a Bohemian beer.
The best acids to use are, if acid rather than decarbonation of the
water is the approach to be taken, the acids that are found in high
kilned malts. This may or may not get you away from the style of beer
you are trying to brew. In Munich Helles, for example, the water is
decarbonated by boiling (or actually more probably lime treatment) and a
modest proportion of crystal or caramel used to neutralize the remaining
residual alkalninity. In Pilsen less is required (because the residual
alkalinity of water right out of the well is less than the residual
alkalinity of treated Munich water). There is a limit to how much can be
used without darkening the beer too much.
The final question - authors referring to carbonate and bicarbonate with
wild abandon. Yes they do and this is to avoid the sticky issue of
having to be precise. The problem is that you don't really know what
these folks are really talking about. These two ions both exist in any
given water sample as does the carbonic acid molecule in relative
proportions which depend on the pH. I call them collectively the "carbo"
species (CARBOnic, biCARBOnate, CARBOnate- get it?). At pH 8.3 the
majority (98%) of the carbo's are bicarbonate. These decline up to about
pH 10.3 where bicarbonic and carbonate are in the ratio 1:1 and in the
other direction down to pH about 6.4 where there are equal numbers of
carbonic and bicarbonate. Thus bicarbonate is the most prevalent over
the range of pH at which potable water is usually found. The problem
arises when an author gives only one piece of information e.g. "My water
has a HCO3(-) content of 350mg/l". That doesn't tell me what I need to
know unless you tell me what the pH is as well (because I can then
calculate the carbonate and carbonic) or the carbonate (because I can
then calculate the pH and then the carbonic). It drives me nuts when
textbooks publish tables comparing the brewing water of various cities
without ever (it seems) including pH data. I have also found over the
years that if you make the assumption that where it says "bicarbonate"
it really means "bicarbonate" and where it says "carbonate" it must
actually also mean "bicarbonate" because for it to mean "carbonate"
would be absurd, and calculate the pH value required to have
electrically neutral water, the pH value is in the majority of cases
unreasonably high. I am, thus, quite mistrusting of these data.
A.J.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:26:06
From: "RYAN WILLIS" <montanaredeye2@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: PubCrawl Portland, Oregon
RE: PubCrawl Portland, Oregon
Greetings, Beerings! Take me to your lager...
This is my first post to the HBD, but i am a everyday reader for
about 6 months now. Well, Jack i don't live in Portland, but i visit all the
time. Some of my suggestions would be:
!Edgefield Brewery & Winery Located just outside of Fairview on NE
Halsey. Great place to have a few Pints and catch a Show.(McMinimums Pubs)
!Liberator Ales Located on Ne Sandy Blvd. in Fairview (Jeff, the Owner Sells
his Homebrew, Legally)
!The Portland Brewing Company
!Brigeport (not my favorate)
!Labrador Brewing
!NorWester
!Henry Weinhards
!Wyeast on Mt. Hood (don't know if they allow Tours?)
!A good Irish Pub that i found last week is Fado on NW Burnside. past
downtown portland.
And for HomeBrew Supplies there is Stienbarts on 12th street
If anyone would like to suggest more places i should try please email
me at montanaredeye2@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:38:51 -0400
From: "Peter Pellemans" <peter@pellemans.net>
Subject: re: Ala & Fl Beers???
See http://www.beersouth.com for a list of brewpubs/microbreweries/etc in
the Southeast.
-Peter
- ------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:10:06 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox@cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Ala & Fl Beers???
Hbd,
A brewer in my club and good personal friend is driving from Jackson, Mi
to Panama City, FL late this week. What brands of Micro's/brewpubs
should he be looking for once he gets down there. Are there any must
stop at's along the way Especially through Alamaba?
Phil Wilcox
Prison City Brewers
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: chiller
Thanks for all the advice gang. Apparently people have somewhat elaborate
methods for draining from the brewpot but the majority say try whole hops,
i'm using pellets. So i'll give it a try.
thanks gang.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:45:50 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Spurments and fermenter geometry.
Dr. Pivo writes ...
>Steve Alexander pomtificates [...]
See what I mean about personality based attacks on HBD ?
>regarding fermenter geometry.:
>> I suspect DeCleck and Fix both suffer from ill-designed experiments
>>
>
>I suspect Alexander suffers from "no experiments".
Yes, I've never formally experimented with fermenter geometry
and I doubt you have Doc , but I do not need to , to show that
H:W ratio is not a proper description of a cause that effects
yeast metabolism. I've results that disprove the impact is causal
and you can get these with mere tests, not full experiments.
I've perform forced fermentations in a graduated cylinder with
a supposedly horrible H:W ratio and there was never a problem
with FG or diacetyl. I've also performed a couple corny keg
ferments that had no unusual problems. There are also
commercial continuous fermenters with a tower design that
according the 'geometry advocates' should perform horribly but
don't. These are all evidence that the
H:W => diacetyl+stuck_fermentation relation is not causal.
>You might try splitiing a few hundred ferments, and surprise yourself by
>finding out that "virtual brewing" doesn't necessarily lead you to the
>truth.
More personal innuendo. It's a nice insult Doc, but it is factually in
error.
>It sure has shown me quite a few surprises, and you get two or three
>different beers from the same wort---cool!
I've do this too, and have for years, but my tall fermenters *never* are
green as grass, don't take 3.5 weeks to ferment, or end ~6sg degrees above
FG. If yours do there is something other than H:W causing it.
==
So DocPivo claims he has performed "a few hundred" differential fermenter
geometry experiments. If you've done such experiments Doc, then you must
post the hypothesis, the method and the results. I am most interested in
the experimental design that allows you (or DeCleck or George Fix) to state
that H:W ratio is the *isolated parameter* that CAUSES poor attenuation and
high diacetyl levels.
Trying a bunch of ferments in a corny vs a carboy or whatever does
not isolate H:W.
(gloves off but softly)
Lacking a proper report on these experiments, I'll have to assume DocPivo
left his lab notebook at my virtual brewery, where they were performed.
I'll take a look around Doc, but I suspect it's way down inside the serving
tank you were infecting.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:53:27 -0500
From: pursley@webzone.net
Subject: Wildbreww III
The Fellowship of Oklahoma Ale Makers (FOAM) announces Wild Brew III, Oklahoma
s only AHA-sanctioned Homebrew Competition. The entry deadline is July 27, 2001.
We will accept all BJCP styles of beer, cider, and mead. Judging will be August
4, 2001. The awards ceremony will be August 18, 2001 at the Nature Conservancy
Wild Brew beer-tasting and fund-raising event at the Tulsa fairgrounds. Get
details and forms at http://members.home.net/alemakers/, click on the Wild Brew
link.
We are fortunate to have a strong contingent of BJCP-qualified judges in the
area, so your brew should be well judged. Last year we had over 100 entries
and we had a blast at the judging event. Members came from clubs in Oklahoma
and Kansas to help and to have fun. We are expecting even more entries this
year. As always, we need judges, stewards, and all kinds of help. If you would
like to come to Tulsa for the judging August 4, please contact Jeff Pursley
at pursley@webzone.net. We have not locked in a judging location yet, but we
will soon. As soon as we do, the information will go up on the web site and
I'l post it to the HBD.
Jeff Pursley
Tulsa, Oklahoma
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:04:55 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: WARNING DANGER
I posted ...
>so Pivo's sniffometer or a tongue may be helpful in
>detecting some of those infections that aren't detected by
>cycloheximide.
Cycloheximide is tertagenic, possibly carcinogenic - I did not mean one
should taste the cyclohex' sample - but rather an undosed sample. Treat
cycloheximide as poisonous.
-S
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3634, 05/16/01
*************************************
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