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HOMEBREW Digest #3638
HOMEBREW Digest #3638 Mon 21 May 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: Hop pellets and the Bazooka screen ("The Holders")
Bringing Beer Back (Drew Beechum)
re: HBD CAP Experiment...|| the nominees are ... ("Stephen Alexander")
removing keg fittings ("Ian Forbes")
Cap experiment ("Houseman, David L")
RE: H:W or Aspect ratio ("Stephen Alexander")
Salts, formula weight, water content ("Fred L. Johnson")
geometry, algebra, and other simple logic. ("Dr. Pivo")
removing corny fittings (Thomas A Gardner)
re: removing keg fittings ("Dr. Pivo")
Ayinger Recipe? (Steven)
The great 'periment, agave nectar (craftbrewer)
RE: recipe (Fat Tire Ale) ("Cindie")
Cider as an ale yeast starter??? ("Dan Stedman")
digital temp controller (Steve Funk)
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Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:51:52 -0700
From: "The Holders" <zymie@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Hop pellets and the Bazooka screen
Neil K wrote:
"I'm about to have a hole drilled in my big, beautiful, brand-new 9
gallon pot
and would like to try a Bazooka screen, but I tend to use hop pellets.
Is
the screen mesh fine enough/coarse enough to filter all my hop pellet
sludge
without clogging?"
To which James Layton replied:
"I firmly believe that any kettle configuration that tries to pull wort
through a layer of hop pellet sludge is doomed to failure. It isn't the
screen that clogs, it is the sludge that blocks wort flow"
Hop "sludge" may be a problem in some cases, but I think Neil might just
find that the huge surface area of the bazooka screen will be more than
adequate for straining wort from pellet hops/trub. The length of the screen
assures that you'll have a clear pickup point somewhere in the kettle, not
just if/when/how you've whirlpooled away from it.
Now one of those tiny "weakling" screens is another story.
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 02:07:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Beechum <Drew.Beechum@disney.com>
Subject: Bringing Beer Back
ok, so as a few of my friends on this list are aware, I'll be
travelling both to England and Belgium before this year is through.
I'd like to be able to bring beer back with me, but Customs seems to
charge a duty on anything over 1 liter of "alcohol". Now I'm pretty
certain that includes beer as well as vodka, which bites.
How have you all dealt with bringing back beers? It'd be nice to come
back with a grand collection of brews to share with everyone. (I open
to suggestions of shipping, etc) Also does anyone have a clue as to
duty fees, etc?
- -- Drew
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 06:58:36 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: HBD CAP Experiment...|| the nominees are ...
All,
I really like Pat Babcock's suggest re making it 'fun', but the point of an
experiment is to test something. As far as that goes Steve Parfitt made
some excellent points. It's not much but a data collection tour of very
different ferments w/o a control and some consistent measurements.
>o Volunteers capable of lager brewing having one or
> more of the various fermenter geometries required
I think perhaps both and a good hydrometer may be necessary if we're to have
controls and measurements., but the committee can hash that out,
====
>o A non-combatant to chair the experiment
I'd like to nominate A.J.deLange.- one of the truly nice guys of HBD, and
long term high quality technical contributor. Does not appear to own or
grind axes. Despite his owning a CC, I've no qualms about his objectivity.
>o A committee to set the terms of the experiment
Names that instantly come to my mind for their considerable technical
credentials, and valuable long term contributions include Spencer Thomas,
Scott Murman, Domenick Venezia, John Palmer, Jim Liddil (is he still
lurking?), and George dePiro as potential chairs or committee members. As
soon as I post this I'll think of three more names and be embarrassed for
the omission.
Any seconds ?
I can think of several people who would certainly have great technical
expertice or interest, haven't been involved in this discussion, but might
reasonably be considered by some to hold a bias on the matter for personal
reasons. Like Alan Meeker, legit research credentials, the only HBDer I
think to ever report statistical error bounds on his HB experiments (maybe
DomVenezia did too) , but had disagreements a few years back with Dr.Fix.
Or Louis Bonham, who published a series of fine technical articles in BT,
and has long contributed to HBD (but has a close association with Dr.Fix,
and has refused to respond to my emails for several years). I think there
should be a review position for several such advocates to publish critiques
of the committees proposed method prior to the experiment.
{Could we arrange to vote online somehow for those who are seconded and
accept the nomination, Pat ? }
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 07:53:34 -0400
From: "Ian Forbes" <ian.forbes@snet.net>
Subject: removing keg fittings
Dave asks "How do you get the in/out fittings out of a corny keg?
Are star-shaped wrenches available?..."
And I say that a 12 point 22mm wrench worked perfectly for me.
Ian
Hamden, CT
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:15:35 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: Cap experiment
Well if it's dueling fermenters we'll need a well organized competition to
judge the results. Will Jeff and the Michigan crew step up to organize this
competition to ajudicate the results?
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 08:26:38 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: H:W or Aspect ratio
Del Lansing wrote ...
>It is not a hypothesis, it was from real world calculations.
I wrote you about your hypothesis before, and it's not this
misinterpretation version. Please read your mail. In the future if I call
it the 'O2 hypothesis' it doesn't mean I doubt the existence of oxygen !!!
The rest of your issues (air contact area:vol, H:W 'geometry' implies
volume, glycogen assay is sufficient for a conclusion) all seem based on
misreadings, or misunderstandings of what has been posted or sent to Del by
email several times already.
Pointless to respond if you won't read it instead of mischaracterizing it.
---------------------------
In a more thoughtful and well read response David Harsh writes ...
>Circulation is a strong function of fermenter geometry. [...]
Dave, I agree that circulation can be a function of general geometry, but is
certainly NOT a function of H:W ratio independent of these other factors.
>Cell metabolism only? I don't think so. Can't premature flocculation
>of the yeast cause poor attenuation?
Flocculation is a consequence of yeast metabolic processes.
>> The simplest, most direct explanation wins - Occam's razor.
>
>[...] circulation patterns [...] qualify in this case.
Circulation has a more direct, simple and explicable impact on yeast
performance than oxygen or CO2 ? I don't see that Dave.
- ---------------------------
Steven M. Claussen writes ...
>>An BB&MB type CC has the same surface area to
>>volume ratio as a cornelius keg with 3.75 gallons [...]
[...]
>A 5 gallon corny being used as a fermentor
>would most likely be filled with 4.5 gallons (or more) of wort.
1/ Only H:W is relevant to the argument, not headspace. The
point s that different H:W valued fermenters can have identical
surface:volume ratios.
2/ Fix suggested 20% headspace, I made it 25% to make the surface
volume numbers match.
3/ Fill a 5gal fermenter 90+% full and you'll be cleaning splooge
else looking at a deficient ferment. I regularly fill acid
carboy primaries to 75%-82% and still get some blowoff.
- ---
"I've come here for an argument" - Eric Idle.
"No, you didn't" - John Cleese
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:04:07 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Salts, formula weight, water content
Pete Calinsky asks whether he should consider the water content of a
compound such as MgSO4-7H20 when he is making salt additions. He uses the
following example of Epsom Salts:
> a sample of Epsom Salts is nearly 1/2 water [120/(120+126)]. SO if I
> want 1 gram of MgSO4 I need 2 grams of the Epsom Salts I am using.
His question regarding the calculation of how much salt to add is a good
one, but the answer really depends on what one is trying to achieve. If one
is simply trying to reproduce something someone else did, and the other
person wasn't precise in their description of the target concentration of
the salt, then one can only guess how to make the solution. To use your
example: If someone said to you to use 1 g magnesium sulfate in a liter,
you're next question might be, "Do you mean you put 1 gram MgSO4 into a
liter of water or did you use 1 gram of the more common heptahydrate of
MgSO4 as found in Epsom salts." It is frustrating when folks don't use
precise language in describing their salt additions.
This is one reason that expressing concentrations in molar terms or in parts
per million is MUCH preferred. Molar solutions are not ambiguous. A 0.3 M
MgSO4 solution can be made with any form of MgSO4 and without any knowledge
of how anyone else makes it.
On the other hand, when folks who routinely deal with salt solutions (like
lab folks) talk about salt solutions, they often use weight/volume terms,
but it is always assumed that the person using such terminology is
knowledgable of the hydrate issue and has accounted for it. Alternatively,
the person may specify precisely with language like, "5 mg/mL MgSO4-7H20".
One then knows that the heptahydrate of magnesium sulfate was put into
solution at the rate of 5 mg heptahydrate of MgSO4 per mL of final volume of
solution.
At any rate, Pete's consideration of the water content of the salt is
absolutely appropriate, and although I didn't check his math, his approach
for accounting for the water content of the salt, as specified in the
formula weight, is exactly correct.
Most of the time, homebrewers are trying to hit a specific ion concentration
that has been appropriately specified either in terms of ppm or mg/L. In
either case, one can safely assume that what is being specified is the final
concentration of the ions in question.
Pete also asks whether he should account for the fact that some salts tend
to pick up water from the atmosphere. This is, likewise, a very appropriate
question. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to account for water picked up
from the air, and one must desiccate the salt to accurately make a known
concentration solution of it. It is best to store such compounds in a
desiccator to prevent water pick up or at least to keep the lid tight and
minimize the time the container is open to the air.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:48:01 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: geometry, algebra, and other simple logic.
I "THINK" that the size and shape of a fermenting vessel, will affect 1)
the rate of oxygen admission in an open ferment 2) the rate on an
individual level of CO2 emmanation (how long it takes a yeast cell to
ride its little intoxicating CO2 fart balloon to the surface) 3) the
rate of outgasing of the entire ferment 4) temperature dispersion from
the ferment 5) temperature distribution within the ferment 6) mixing of
nutrients, and dispersion of catabolites (waste, if you will) and 7)
the hydrostatic pressure the yeast are submitted to.
I "THINK" further, that one, or some, or a combination of some of those
factors will affect both the rate of fermentation, and the final outcome
in terms of flavour.
Since I let my brewing vessel outgrow my fermentation vessels about 17
years ago, and like to retain my ferments in something that takes less
than a forklift to move, should I want to..... that has meant that I
have always split my ferments to at least 2 vessels, and sometimes many
more, ranging from little bottles to 100 litre barrels.
Believe it, or not....... I have developed some strong opinions on this
subject!
I "KNOW" that for whatever reason may be causing it, it is in fact the
case that the size and shape of your fermenter can, and does effect
fermentation rate and flavour.
Anyone who doubts this, has certainly not split up many ferments of the
same wort, probably has not fermented much at all (or is not terribly
observant)........ and most likely likes to argue a lot!
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: 19 May 2001 10:02:59 -0700
From: Thomas A Gardner <Thomas.A.Gardner@kp.org>
Subject: removing corny fittings
The larger corny fittings are 7/8". Get a closed end box wrench
and one end will have the 12-sided opening for use on the gas-
in side. Some of the smaller fittings are 11/16" I believe. Don't mix
up the fittings or poppets from different kegs, they come in a lot of
different sizes. "Trust me!"
I don't need the lambic, but I have an extra Barleywine book for
trade for a Belgian book if anyone is interested.
I'm an occasional lager brewer and I'd be interested in the
comparison brew if possible. Tom
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:12:22 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: re: removing keg fittings
Dave Reidel asks:
> How do you get the in/out fittings out of a corny keg?
> Are star-shaped wrenches available? I need to get in the
> poppets to clean and/or replace the springs....
>
"long reach" sockets (like you use to take out spark plugs).
Failing that, the "round teeth" (behind the actual squeezy part) of an
ordinary pair of pliers on "wide" setting.
And, yes, there are special tools just for this job (look a bit like
the wrench that you use to take off the "wheel" on an angle grinder),
but you'll have to be pulling apart a lot of kegs to justify getting
one.
My favourite, is the long reach socket, over to a battery driven drill,
with a "clutching" setting..... makes me feel like a "real" mechanic.
The "clutching" is not a bad idea, as the male thread that this stuff
screws onto is welded onto the keg, and I've actually managed to rip
that right off the keg with some over zealous tightening......... and
embarrassingly so..... on more than one occasion.
Dr. Pivo
Bad news on the poppets. It's the only piece on the Corny I haven't
figured out a way to do a "cheap" repair on.... Once the gaskets gone,
you'll have to replace the whole little lunar landing module. There are
at least two types, so take your old one along when you go to get a
replacement
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:06:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Ayinger Recipe?
I've fallen in love recently with Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel
the nice maltyness is just perfect.
Anyone have a recipe for this? Or something very very similar?
Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl@mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net
"You want the government to handle your medical care? You want the
government to take care of your retirement? Go stand in line at a post
office." -- Neil Boortz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:27:23 +1000
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: The great 'periment, agave nectar
G'day All
/
Now I am hurt. Here's Pat working out the finer points of the
"great 'periment", and he didn't consult me. If he had consulted
the Man in the North, he would have found that everyone has
left out two varables that may explain this whole saga. The
answer is staring you straight in the face and none of you so
called knowledgables can see it. It amazes me, but then again,
when you can see the trees for the forrest (or is that the other
way round), and egos get in the way, well dont ask me. Its just
fun to watch those in the know make fools of themselves.
/
But back to the great 'periment. Pat, have you actually
considered the effect of brewing upside down - down under.
I bet not. Considering that flow dynamics is part of this whole
farce, have you forgotten that water goes round the other way
down here. This naturally transends that the flow dynamics
is back the front down here, as well as upside down. Now
this has to be considered in the overall scope of things,
even Steve would agree with that.
/
And dont forget the "shout effect". Its obvious that all brewing
experiments should be at ground zero, to neutralise this well
known cause of uneven yeast distribution, which in turn affects
the perceptions of people as to how their beer is fermenting.
/
And speaking of Steve
It was written
From: BShotola@aol.com
If George wins and Steve is found to be all wet and slow on the
O2 uptake, then Steve ought to be sent to brew with Graham
for a month, providing of course Mr. Sanders has healed
sufficiently from his stick wounds and chafed kit bag. <<<<<<<
/
Now this is a nice idea, but Steve has tried once before to
come over here and seek advice. However, he failed to meet
the high educational values we set here in North Queensland.
Practically speaking - now there was a term many are not
familar with. Plus he never did want to pay the customary import
duty of one carton. Still, yes he is welcome, as well as the rest
of you, as long as you go home again.
/
Now George on the other hand, wants to send me a bloody
keg of his attempt at a beer. Settle down mate, one carton will
do, my pet saltie will get alcohol poisoning otherwise.
/
But a question to the distillers out there. A mate and me are
looking at importing some Agave nectar from St Pat's. But the
stuff is very dear. Still I want to make some tequila. Now I was
thinking of making a 50 litre wash 20%v/v alcohol with plain
sugar and adding some Agave nectare to that when I distill it.
/
Do any of you have an idea if I can get away with adding
say 10% nectar (5 litres) to get the flavour at the right level, or
do I have to make it stronger. I plan to run it off at 70-80% v/v
strength.
/
Shout
Graham Sanders
/
Oh
Well the saga with the emu killing yanks continue. In a style
that can only come from America, trying to sound sincere but
coming accross as an idiot, we are now told that next time it
happens the Americans will use environmentally friendly bullets.
"Oh sorry, blasted you full of holes - but it good for the
environment". I can see it now, F16 dropping cluster bombs
all over the place, tanks leveling buildings, grunts shooting
anything that moves. And all with a clear conscience - "Opps
didn't mean to kill anyone, just adding some fertilizers".
/
Now there's a lot of Bull-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 02:45:28 -0400
From: "Cindie" <cynthiagreen@ameritech.net>
Subject: RE: recipe (Fat Tire Ale)
You can also find both a partial mash recipe with recommendations for
all-grain at the BYO magizine web site.
Here's the url: http://www.byo.com/01mar/exchange.html
Tim Green
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:39:12 -0500
From: "Dan Stedman" <dstedman@mn.rr.com>
Subject: Cider as an ale yeast starter???
So I just had a thought - why not use simple pastuerized
apple cider (that you buy in the grocery store in the gallon
jugs) along with a little yeast nutrient for starter
material? It would be a whole lot easier than boiling up
some dry extract every time you need to create a starter and
it seems like it would have everything necessary for
building up yeast numbers.
Thoughts? Is the cider too different from wort for this to
work?
tia,
Dan in Minnetonka
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:56:33 -0700
From: Steve Funk <steve@hheco.com>
Subject: digital temp controller
This is just an FYI for those of you who may be in the market for a temp
controller. I just got the Ranco digital temp controller from Johnstone
supply (the usual disclaimers) for only $39.95 Model ETC-111000-000,
Johnstone Catalog # L38-382. This is their sale price for the month of
May. This controller can be used to control anything from a frig to
your mash tun or HLT. The temp range is -30 to +220F. I'm using mine to
control the HLT temp at an even 180F. Although the Johnson control is
great for my lager freezer, it doesn't go above 80 or 90F. This is no
way an endorsement.
Steve
"To brew beer is benevolent to drink it is devine"
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3638, 05/21/01
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