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HOMEBREW Digest #3595
HOMEBREW Digest #3595 Sat 31 March 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Whiskey for Caskiness ("Ray Daniels")
stove brewing (Steve)
smooth-top range, labels ("Mark Tumarkin")
some thoughts on Malted Oats (Darrell.Leavitt)
RIMS recirculation manifold question, anybody seen the Zymurgy article? (Wayne Page)
Check valves (Charles.Burry)
Re: Samson (Hubert Hanghofer)
More on pH ("Fred Kingston")
clever cap color coding & Converted Coors Keg Questions ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Hyperbolic luddites brewed flavorful beer! (The Man From Plaid)
alpha and beta amylases.....and omega confusion.... (Darrell.Leavitt)
RE: continuing consonance comedy (Category Cinq) (Brian Lundeen)
Yeast Coloration & Looking for 20 Tanks Brewer ("Hedglin, Nils A")
Er... wots a 'lambic'! ("Wilf Phoenix")
PSUEDO CASK CONDITIONING ("Wilf Phoenix")
Labelling beer- easy! ("Wilf Phoenix")
re: ss welding & fridge ? ("C.D. Pritchard")
sidetrip to Munich (Aleconner)
Marc's pump ("elvira toews")
smooth top stove (Mike B)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:27:27 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan@ameritech.net>
Subject: Whiskey for Caskiness
Mr. Biggins asks about creating "cask-iness" in beer similar to that found
in whiskies. Many
brewers assume that cask-conditioned beers should a) be aged in wood barrels
and b) derive
some flavor from that wood.
Modern casks are made of stainless steel or perhaps aluminum. Even in
Britain, wood casks are
very rarely seen these days. Second, I have talked to some traditional
brewers in Britain who use
wood casks and they assure me that they want no wood flavor in the beer.
Indeed, they make
every effort to ensure that no wood flavor is imparted. For starters wood
beer barrels are not
toasted. Second, new barrels are scrubbed with caustic and soaked with old
beer for several
cycles in an attempt to remove all possible traces of wood flavor before
use. Third, the barrels
are filled repeatedly so that any remaining traces of wood character have
long-since disappeared.
The one possible flavor impact of wood comes as a result of the porosity of
the material. Beers
kept for six months or more in wood will reportedly oxidize slightly, giving
them a flavor that is
different from a sample of the same product aged in stainless steel. But,
since most cask-
conditioned beers reside in their cask for only a few weeks, this would not
be a commonly seen
effect.
The beauty and flavor of cask-conditioned ale (much like homebrew) is the
result of
FRESHNESS. When ideally handled, the beer completes its maturation in the
pub cellar and is
served to patrons immediately thereafter. The resulting beer can be
sublime.
Ray Daniels
Real Ale Festival Organizer
Day Job: Editor of Zymurgy & The New Brewer
E-mail: ray@aob.org
Call Customer Service at 888-822-6273 to subscribe or order individual
magazines.
Don't Miss:
Craft Brewers Conference, Portland, OR - April 4-7
National Homebrewers Conference, Los Angeles - June 21-23
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:34:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <gravelse@yahoo.com>
Subject: stove brewing
Hi Jim,
I would recommend upgrading. The large pot on the stove might work, but
this gives you an excuse to upgrade to a larger pot (5 gal or more) and a
propane burner. Your wife will be pleased that you can brew outside, you
won't mess up her kitchen and you get to buy a new toy! Plus, you get the
added benefit of doing full 5 gallon or more boils and you get to play
with propane! What could be better than that?
Here's a link that might help out: www.stratfordimports.com. Check out
the Turkey Fryer under Outdoor Cooking, for $6995 you can be on your way
top freedom! I don't sell, or have any connection to Stratford Imports.
I'm just trying to impart some advice that helped me out after one too
many boil overs on the electric stove. Good luck!
SteveG
"Homebrew, it's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:51:09 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: smooth-top range, labels
Jim Prucha writes: "Now that we've replaced the range (and kitchen) with
another smooth-top
range, my wife found a statement in the new manual specifically prohibiting my
two-element method. Is the claimed problem of a discolored or crazed cooktop
really possible? It also said not to use a pot exceeding the heater area (9"
diam) by more than 1". (11" max??). What do the rest of the brewers with these
ranges use? "
I've seen one of these ranges with a discolored top around one burner - but I
don't know for sure if a too large pot was the cause. But ... seems like this
is the perfect reason to move to an outdoor propane cooker - just to keep
SWMBO happy. You'd get your cooker and earn some beer bullets as well. Even if
you're doing extract or partial mash brewing, doing a full wort boil is much
better - better hop utilization, hot break, easier to maintain good rolling
boil, etc.
On the label issue - milk is a good glue to use, cheap and easy. the round
colored labels for the cap are also a good solution. I use them when I get too
lazy to print labels. for me, the main problem with labels comes when you put
them into an ice chest to take to a party. if you're just keeping them in the
fridge, inkjet labels (yes, the ink does run when wet) are fine, and milk glue
works well. but put them in the ice chest where they get wet and you've got
problems. I've found the glue sticks will hold up to this but still allow for
easy label removal. the ink running is still an issue - as noted though, the
ink from a color copier or color laser won't run. another solution is to slap
a piece of clear packing tape over the label before you put the bottles into a
cooler. the tape holds the label on and protects against the ink running. you
only have to do this for the small number of bottles that go into the cooler
for parties, the rest are fine as is.
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:10:52 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt@esc.edu
Subject: some thoughts on Malted Oats
Ok,...I have been fooling around with malted oats, and think that I have
verified that there is a maximum of 1-1.5 lb per 10 lb grain bill that one
should use so as to avoid the deleterious effects of what I think may be
too much residual oil in the malted oats. I think that the solution
(beyond using less malted oats) lies in using sufficient wheat malt to
counter the anti-foaming effects (I think) of the malted oats.
Anyway, I have some data below, that I think MAY support my thesis...but
clearly there are so many variables that a much better comparison / test
should be made. This is not an experimental report...but merely
qualitative observations. But, never-the-less, and in part because I
believe G. Fix when he says that brewing good beer is an art (as well as a
science) ...not his exact words....I feel compelled to present this rather
UN-experimental, yet still (to me ) interesting set of "observations".
The first batch that I brewed was a 2 step infusion, using a hefe slurry,
while the second was a single step infusion, using a California V slurry.
I am going to suggest that the major difference in taste (admittedly very
subjective to me) is due to the amount of malted oats, ...but I could, of
course, be very mistaken. In addition, the head retention of the brew
that had less oats and more wheat malt was much better.
So, here is the "data" for what it is worth:
Batch #1:
Called a "California Porter" this had :
4 lb Maris Otter 2 row
2 lb Malted Oats
2 lb Crystal
.5 lb Chocolate
.75 lb Amber
1 lb Wheat malt
This was a single stage infusion: 155F for 60 minutes.
Og wass 1.047
Fg was 1.018
%abv was around 4%
I used 1/2 oz Cascades at the start, and no more (I would have used other
hops...but that was what was in the storehouse.
The yeast was the slurry (about 1/2 growler) of California V .
The boil was about 1.25 hours.
Batch #2:
Called a "Hefe Porter" (I know that is a dumb name...not true to all the
style guides ...)
It had:
5 lb 2 row
1 lb Chocolate
1.5lb Oat Malt
3 lb Wheat Malt
2 lb Flaked Barley
.5 lb Brown Malt
.75 lb Crystal
This was a 2 stage infusion: 146 F for 45 min, 158F for 60 min.
Original Gravity was 1.057
Final was 1.018
%abv was about 5%
Hops were: 1/2 oz cascades @ start
1/2 @ 30
0 Finish hops
Now, the head on the 2nd batch was superior to the first. For the first,
the head disappeared within a minute or so after a vigorous pour. For the
second, the head remained for 5 minutes or so...and the taste was much
better as well.
I believe that if one is going to use malted oats, then there has to be
sufficient head-friendly ingredients ....in the case of the second batch
the 3 lb of wheat, as well as the 2 lb of fl;aked barley may have
over-compensated for the oil?
Just some thoughts...in this very non-empirical exercize.
By the way, my setup is 3 tier gravity, using a 10 gallon polarware (and a
full boilof 6.5+ gallons) , and the gallon or so under the false bottom may
account for a less than optimal efficiency...
Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
..Darrell
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:03:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Wayne Page <wdpage@pinn.net>
Subject: RIMS recirculation manifold question, anybody seen the Zymurgy article?
When I built my RIMS I based the design of the return manifold on the "H"
used by several others. This distributes the returned wort gently to the
mash at 4 different points, and seemed like a good way to even the
temperature throughout the mash. A recent article in Zymurgy mentioned a
return method that created a gentle whirlpool in the mash tun, and stated
that the measured mash temperatures were inconsistent when this was not set
up correctly but very consistent when it was. I have checked my mash
temperatures during various brews, and found them to be fairly stable MOST
of the time, but have had times when they varied widely from spot to spot
within the mash. Has anyone else tried the "whirlpool" method? I am assuming
that the return manifold would be a simple 90 degree bend in a tube,
directing the wort around the edge of the tun (in my case, like in the
article, a converted keg). Can anyone offer any insight into this method
beyond what was in the article?
Thanks
Wayne D. Page
Chesapeake, VA (Deep in the Great Dismal Swamp)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:41:46 -0600
From: Charles.Burry@ercgroup.com
Subject: Check valves
I had been looking for decent CO2 check valves for quite some time and
recently stumbled on Rocky Top Homebrew Supplies,
http://www.rockytopbrew.com (standard disclaimer) who have very nice metal
inline valves for $10 a piece. After completely re-plumbing my tap box a
couple of times, $10 a line doesn't seem that bad.
Charlie Burry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:37:55 +0200
From: Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof@netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Samson
Hi all,
it was nice to read from a real connoisseur:
> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:30:06 -0600
> From: rlabor@lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
> ...You can dine in a cave-like
> restaurant there and drink one of the world's best beers Samson, that's
> right Samson...
YES, that's *absolutely* right,
...Samson, a.k.a. "Erste Budweiser Bu:rgerbra:u",
Budejovicke pivo anno 1795,
purveyor to the court of the king of Wuerttemberg...
...oh, how I love it!
"Budvar" - founded in 1875 - is by far the bigger and better known brewery in
the czech town of Budweis. US brewer Adolphus Bush visited Budweis in the
same year (1875) - but the beer he took home to St. Louis was from
Bu:rgerbra:u (sorry I use fallen umlauts) - SAMSON! Back home Adolphus may
not have brewed the most flavorful beer, but he definitely was a connoisseur
of czech beers!
Allzeit gut Sud!
Hubert,
loving the REAL Budweiser in Salzburg, Austria
www.netbeer.co.at
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:33:23 -0500
From: "Fred Kingston" <Fred@kingstonco.com>
Subject: More on pH
A.J. writes....
Subject: More on pH
> snip to important parts...
> Thus if the room temp mash pH were 5 it
> might be expected to shift to 4.8 and an uncompensated meter would read
> less than this by about 0.3 for a reding of about 4.5.
> A.J.
Dudes....
I gotta wonder... on a homebrewing scale... How significant is .5 deviation
in pH?????? Can anyone in the universe taste a difference in beer made with
.5 deviated pH wort?
I mean... what did those old guys do 200 years ago before scientific
instruments???? Maybe we need to start tracking our biorythms before we
brew????? Makes sense to me! Hey Donovan!!! You wanna add that feature to
ProMash on the next iteration???
PS.. Disclaimer: This isn't directed to any individuals, yadda, yadda, I
just happened to tag it onto AJ's recent message...
PPS.. Please don't flame me... my asbestos suit is more powerful than
your's...
Fred Kingston
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:23:33 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: clever cap color coding & Converted Coors Keg Questions
Brian L writes:
>>Sorry, I'm just in an alliterative mood.
Stop. Stop spelling silly sentences!
Now look what you did...
> I just stick some Avery colored dots on the bottle caps. A simple
>chart reminds me what is what, although I do try to keep a logical
>relationship between color and beer style.
I think this is the best approach. Especially if you're lazy like I am.
Maybe I'll add the batch number since I'll only bottle a few and would only
care what recipe it relates to once in a while. You know. The missing
bottle of brown ale you find in the fridge which has just happened to hit
the peak of it's flavor right now, after about 6 months of being lost.
As it is I keg most of my beer and the only batches I bottle entirely are
those brews meant to age like barley wines and lambics. Since I only make 1
batch of barley wine a year, age it for a year and drink very little of it,
I guess a date (at most) might help. Good idea!
Question to the collective:
Does anyone use Coors kegs in their brewery? You know, with the rounded
sides (non-sankey). Are they called Keystone? Anyhow, all I ever see are
Sankey kegs with their nice, straight sides used as an HLT, mash tun or
kettle. Are there problems using the Coors style keg? I have 2 of them at
my disposal.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:42:52 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Hyperbolic luddites brewed flavorful beer!
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
> I mean... what did those old guys do 200 years ago before scientific
> instruments????
They brewed beer which many of us would likely not enjoy. The use of tools
is what separates man from the animals (with the possible exception of
otters)...
> Back home Adolphus may not have brewed the most flavorful beer
Don't go blaming that on Adolphus! I would venture a guess that what we
see of the Budweiser breweries of late carries only a passing resemblance
to their original product.
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:44:45 -0500
From: Darrell.Leavitt@esc.edu
Subject: alpha and beta amylases.....and omega confusion....
From: (the url was just posted by Jeff)
A Comparison of North American Two-Row and Six-Row Malting Barley
by Paul Schwarz and Richard Horsley
- ---start quote---
Malt enzymes: Six-row malts traditionally (that is, before recent breeding
advances) yielded higher levels of the desirable starch-degrading enzymes
a-amylases and greater diastatic power (DP). a-amylases are the enzymes
that convert starch to dextrins, reduce mash or cooker viscosity, and
increase the susceptibility of starch to b-amylase attack (7,8).
- ---end quote----
Ok....if this is the case , ie that alpha increases the susceptibily of
starch to beta.....I am confused: Fix and Fix (1997) state that the
optimal temp for beta is 140-148 F, and for Alpha is 154-162 F. In
addition, discussion here has asserted that as you go UP in temperature
from 148 to 158 (for example) that the beta is denatured....and that one
cannot go backwards, ie one cannot have alpha rest then cool it down to
have a beta rest, right? So....what gives with the above quote? Ie, how
can we use alpha to prepare for beta when (according to Fix) we need to do
the beta rest first????
Omega...Confused...
..Darrell
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:01:55 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: continuing consonance comedy (Category Cinq)
Convivial contributor Glen Pannicke capsulated his commentary as:
> Subject: clever cap color coding & Converted Coors Keg Questions
Cursedly clever coining, comrade. Congrats!
> Question to the collective:
>
> Does anyone use Coors kegs in their brewery? You know, with
> the rounded
> sides (non-sankey). Are there problems using the Coors style keg? I
> have 2 of them at
> my disposal.
>
Corrolorative query: Could the Coors keg's concavity (or conversely,
convexity) conceivably cause a kettle convection current co-factor,
contributing to controlled caramelization and considerable clarification
through coagulant... tap, tap, tap... cloisterification? (Scrabble rules
apply, if you challenge and you're wrong, you lose a turn).
Cheers,
Brian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:26:05 -0800
From: "Hedglin, Nils A" <nils.a.hedglin@intel.com>
Subject: Yeast Coloration & Looking for 20 Tanks Brewer
Hi,
Since I had an extra tube of Wyeast Irish Ale yease when I brewed my
Newcastle Clone last weekend, I split the batch & pitched the Irish Ale in
one half & a London Ale in the other, just to see what the affect was. Now
that it's almost done with the primary fermentation, I noticed that there is
a big difference in the shading of the beer. The Irish Ale batch is about
the color I'd expect for a Brown Ale, but the London Ale batch is so dark,
it almost looke like the porter I just bottled. Do yeasts make this much
difference in color?
One of the best beer's I've ever had was called Heart of Darkness Stout
from 20 Tanks brewery in San Francisco, CA. I don't know if this is
appropriate, but now that they've unfortunately closed, I'd like to try to
track down the any of the brewers to find get some hints on how to make it.
Does anyone know where the brewers for 20 Tanks went?
Thanks,
Nils Hedglin
Sacramento, CA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:24:45 +0100
From: "Wilf Phoenix" <wilf.phoenix@btinternet.com>
Subject: Er... wots a 'lambic'!
Excuse my pommie ignorance but after 35 yrs. brewin an'drinkin' I never did
hear of a Lambic.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:24:48 +0100
From: "Wilf Phoenix" <wilf.phoenix@btinternet.com>
Subject: PSUEDO CASK CONDITIONING
Why not try wood chips like the aussies do with their wine - You could call
it 'barbecue bitter' - Cheers - Wilf -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:24:46 +0100
From: "Wilf Phoenix" <wilf.phoenix@btinternet.com>
Subject: Labelling beer- easy!
The best way I have found is JAN BITTER -JAN LAGER- FEB STOUT-FEB PALE ALE -
FEB LAGER .I make 5gal lots'' So unless you drink a lot it doesnt get
confusing...If you bottle up a real lousy one and save it for people you
don't like --you might need to put the year on as well! - Cheers -
Wilf -Manchester UK
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:41:09
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp@chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: ss welding & fridge ?
Alexandre wants to put copper tubing around a keg for use as a fermenter
and asks if copper can be soldered to SS.
I've used Stay-Brite solder for soldering copper tubing and fittings to a
holes in SS kegs and such (i.e. small areas). Hobby stores sell it. The
flux works OK, but one specifically formulated for SS works better. Check
with a welding supply store. You will need mucho of heat- even a typical
propane type torch with a MAPP gas cylinder would be doubious. It will
also be very tedious. Silver solder would result in a stronger joint but
will require a ton of heat. Copper and SS have different coeffs. of
thermal expansion, so a big dT during use will introduce so stress on the
joints- OTHO, copper is prety ductile.
IMHO putting the heat exchanger inside the fermenter so the brew is cooled
directly is a easier solution. Here's how:
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/kegferm.htm
- -----
alan rhodey is converting a fridge to a beer fridge for kegs and wondered
about the plastic door shelving.
Remove the entire inner door liner/shelves and replace it with a piece of
1/8" thick clear arcylic glazing plastic (paint side towards insulation if
insulation is unslightly or use butchers paper). This allow for more space
for kegs and the process will enable you to put a spacer of plastic pipe
between the outer metal door skin and the new inner liner so that
installing the tap won't deform the inner liner- especially if the door
insulation is fiberglass. Be sure to seal all gaps to prevent air from
entering and condensing inside the door insulation. Duct Seal works very
well for this (it's like a sticky modeling clay).
c.d. pritchard cdp@chattanooga.net
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:14:31 EST
From: Aleconner@aol.com
Subject: sidetrip to Munich
Ron LaBorde writes:
<< By the way, if you get to Munich, be sure to visit the Victual Market.
Fresh produce with a beer garden all combined! Skip the Hoffbrau House. >>
Yes, skip the Hofbrauhaus, but by all means visit Augustiner (right inside
the pedestrain mall near the Karls Tor on the west entrance) and Schneider's
Weisses Brauhaus just beyond the pedestrian mall to the east of the
Marienplatz, where Aventinus is served vom fass (on draught).
Prost!
Marty Nachel
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:59:53 -0600
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1@home.com>
Subject: Marc's pump
Marc:
I think you've got a good idea mounting your pump under a stool. I find a
stool useful during the brew, so I can stand higher and not have to work
with my arms above shoulder height.
You might be able to rotate the pump relative to the motor mount so that the
discharge is uppermost or at least facing upwards. This will minimize
aeration but you might prefer instead to orient the pump so that it drains
completely out the discharge after cleaning.
Sean
srichens@sprint.ca
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:45:32 -0600
From: Mike B <mikebrx@swbell.net>
Subject: smooth top stove
Greetings. I have brewed at least 10 batches of full boil (starting with
over six gallons) beer on a new GE smooth top electric stove using a 36
quart enameled lobster pot straddling the front and rear burners. I just
went up and looked at it closely. The top shows no sign of discoloration or
stress. Luckily I bought it as a floor model and it didn't come with a
manual. I don't know how it is at your house, but at mine, while my darling
wife likes to make noise about being concerned about "her" stove, kitchen,
etc. the fact remains if I wasn't using it to brew it would probably never
get cleaned anyway. Fair trade in my book.
I bought a oxygenator set up from 3B's. My last brew was the first time I
used it. I make a starter using 600 ml .030 and a Wyeast XL smak pak. This
time I used 1098. Pitch at 68*. 10 hours later the fermentation lock was
blown out of the hole in the top of my 7 gallon plastic fermentor. I put a
hose in the hole, ran the hose to a gallon jug, you know the drill. The
fermentation was so violent it was pushing foam out of fermentor around the
top where the lid snaps on to the bucket! It went from .052 to finish at
.008 in 4 days. I am amazed.
Brew on.........Mike
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3595, 03/31/01
*************************************
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