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HOMEBREW Digest #3611
HOMEBREW Digest #3611 Thu 19 April 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Question For Phil And Thanks To Steve ("Phil & Jill Yates")
Haze ("pksmith_morin1")
Haze, Part II ("pksmith_morin1")
HBD post (george fix)
Re:Pot Drains ("The Holders")
False bottom (JGORMAN)
Do not visit www.beerlink.co.uk! (David Harsh)
Re: Sam Adam's Spring Ale Clone (Jeff Renner)
Spruce Brews ("Charles R. Stewart")
chill haze, happy accident ("Songbird Tulip")
Burners and pumps (Aaron Robert Lyon)
Sour ("ZANON, JON")
Re: Pot Drains? (stencil)
cheese digest (Jeremy Bergsman)
hops comparison? (Steven)
BJCP Exam In Philadelphia Area ("David Houseman")
Temperature Controllers ("John Zeller")
Re: Serving line ("patrick finerty jr.")
Re: iodine test for yeast glycogen levels? Any inputs? ("patrick finerty jr.")
Serving line ("John Zeller")
Pot Drains? ("John Zeller")
Re: Bottling Caps ("David Houseman")
Fermentation Chiller Kits now available (Ken Schwartz)
PIDs and Good Home Brewing internet Club ("Doug Craftchick")
Kegerator which frige to get (Socinian)
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:26:20 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: Question For Phil And Thanks To Steve
Steve Alexander asks of me
>Helen/Phil,
>Just how do you handle that in the cockpit - oh never mind.
It's not easy Steve, most of the First Officers get fed up having to admire
my latest summer frock and call me Helen. About this time I usually drift
out into the cabin to help the girls with the tea and coffee service. Must
say though, these modern panti hose do little to hide my hairy legs!
I want to thank Steve for his answer regarding pH and sparging. He put it
about as well as I imagine possible and there is no doubt Steve has a vast
source of information from which he can provide answers. I forgot to mention
in my post that whilst my "run off" pH never seems to get above 5.9,
likewise I don't let its gravity get much below 1010 (temperature adjusted).
But there is a trap in this measurement. After completion of sparging I have
let the mash sit there for some time whilst I am busy getting the boil under
way. Half an hour later I have found the residual liquid in the mash to rise
above a gravity of 1020. Have I lost some sugars that should be in the boil?
Well who cares?
Steve and I both seem to agree on the 6 to 1 ratio and I guess for good
reason. It is safe and conservative and as neither of us are trying to
thrash the last living sugars from the mash, why push it any further?
The great thing about brewing is that you don't need to know the science
behind every process in order to make beautiful beer. Likewise you can know
the science behind it and still make beautiful beer. You can find your own
level of interest. I must admit to Steve as the years go by, I find the
science behind brewing more and more interesting. Perhaps he always knew I
would.
On a final note, the good folk of Tweed Heads spent their Easter weekend
diving in the river for bottles of beer after a truck crashed and lost its
load of grog. You must understand that Tweed Heads is right on the border of
Queensland and so you would expect the inhabitants to have picked up some
basic habits for which Queenslanders are renowned. Theft and pilferage is a
way of life for Queenslanders and gets more prolific the further north you
go. By the time you get to Townsville, well you are amongst the most basic
of Australians with no sense of right or wrong at all. Say, isn't that where
Graham Sanders lives?
Cheers
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:45:56 -0500
From: "pksmith_morin1" <pksmith_morin1@msn.com>
Subject: Haze
Frank,
If you have ruled out the other sources of your haze, I would look to the
polyphenol contribution of your hops (likely) or your malt.
The permanent haze you describe may be due to the complexation of the
polyphenols with haze-active, proline rich protein residues in your beer,
very common. The more complexation, the more light scattering haze.
Outside of time, fining, or filtration, there is not much you can do except
say to hell with it and enjoy your great tasting pilsner.
Cheers,
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:04:10 -0500
From: "pksmith_morin1" <pksmith_morin1@msn.com>
Subject: Haze, Part II
Frank, I forgot to mention a couple of other things. Polyphenol-protein
induced haze is not as much a function of total amounts of protein or
polyphenols which survive the boil into your beer, but rather the ratio
between the two .. the haze active proteins have "enabler" sites along their
chain, but only in certain numbers, which lock up with polyphenolic "ends."
In order for the complexation to take place, these active sites must be
available in roughly equal proportion the the polyphenolic "ends."
Also, the presence of oxygen, or certain heavy metals (e.g., iron or copper)
aid in the formation of haze - by bringing about the formation of
proanthocyanidin dimers from monomers. The recently revisited hot-side
aeration discussion impacts here - HSA may actually reduce eventual haze
formation by catalyzing complexation in the kettle - and thus increasing the
rate of dropout before transferring to the fermentor.
The bottom line: avoid oxygen after the kettle, expecially in the presence
of a good amount of malt- or hop-contributed polyphenols and proteins.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:32:27 -0400
From: george fix <gjfix@CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: HBD post
Dan Diana writes:
> I have been having troubles of late getting my yeast cultures to come
>out of hibernation and be as active as I would like. I've been using the
>pitchable products with starters. In doing some research on the subject, I
>came across a comment [I've quoted it here] made in Fix's Principles of
>Brewing Science, p. 98:
I came up with this test in the late 1980s when I was writing the first edition
of PBS. The procedure was presented at the AHA National Conference held in
Estes Park, Co. (which BTW was the best homebrewing conference I have ever
attended!). The references you cited were from this and a later meeting. I
also discuss this test in my book with my wife ("Analysis of Brewing
Techniques",pages 87-89).
I have been using this procedure even since the 1980s, and find it is a
sufficient test in the sense that yeast performance has meet expectations
every time good color reactions has been obtained. However, before the
"theologians" on this forum mount their pulpits and start denouncing my
"sinful books" let me also say this was by design a simple procedure. There
are better and more sophisticated methods available (see for example,
ASBC's "Methods of Analysis"), which at the same time are much more
involved. As a simple homebrewer I wanted something I could (and would!)
use on a regular basis, and this test was designed for this application in
mind.
I also find staining with say methylene blue or rhodamine B to be useful,
however there has been agreement with the iodine test in ~95% of the cases
since I first started using these tests. In any case, I assure you that you
will find that doing something is better than nothing, and I promise you
that over the long haul your beers will improve if you use any of the
methods, be they the simple or sophisticated ones.
Cheers!
George Fix
*******************************************************
George J. Fix Phone: 864-656-4562
Professor and Head
Department of Mathematical Sciences
Clemson University 29634
*******************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:44:24 -0700
From: "The Holders" <zymie@charter.net>
Subject: Re:Pot Drains
Michael,
There are weldless valve kits available. The one I am associated with and
recommend is the Weld-B-Gone(TM). You can check it out at
http://www.zymico.com/weld-b-gone .
If you find a better product at a better price, I recommend you buy it.
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:59:00 -0400
From: JGORMAN@steelcase.com
Subject: False bottom
>>>I mash in a 150 qt rectangular cooler and with the plastic pipe manifold
I made, and I have gotten horrible extraction / efficiency. >>>
I wouldn't totally blame it on the false bottom. More than likely it's your
grain bed depth and dimension of the mash tun. I used to use a rectangular
picnic cooler and my efficiency was around 55%. After switching to a Gott
cooler my efficiencies went into the mid 70's and sometimes I get 80%. If you
insist on using the rectangular try this. Sparge a gallon at a time. In
between sparges remix the grains and reset the bed. This will eliminate the
sparge water "channeling" and missing sugars that are "hiding" in the corners.
Jason Gorman
River Dog Brewery
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:40:04 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh@fuse.net>
Subject: Do not visit www.beerlink.co.uk!
Greetings-
I'd like to nominate www-dot-beerlink-dot-co-dot-uk as the most
annoying beer website. This morning I received three (3) separate
e-mails informing me that there was a new beer link site and that I had
"requested" the information. All messages were from "Rachel". Normally
I just delete spam, but when I can slam them in their home territory, I
take the opportunity.
Anybody else get these?
Send them a message - don't visit!
Dave Harsh Bloatarian Brewing League
Released from curfew in Cincinnati, OH
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:45:58 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Sam Adam's Spring Ale Clone
"Seth E. Anderson" <seanderson@wsu.edu> wrote
>Used filtered water from the supermarket and added 1 Tbs. per gallon of water
>for the mash and sparge water before heating.
A Tbs. of what? If it's gypsum (and I can't think what else it would
be) that is a whole lot of gypsum. How much for the total brew?
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner@mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:52:07 -0400
From: "Charles R. Stewart" <Charles@TheStewarts.com>
Subject: Spruce Brews
Since we're coming up on early May, when the spruce buds start to appear,
does anyone know what type of spruce is best for spruce ales? I've been
drinking Alba pine ale and LOVE THE STUFF. Also, has anyone tried recipies
they can recommend? Any hints for using spruce?
Thanks,
Chip Stewart
Charles@TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com
Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:27:39 -0600
From: "Songbird Tulip" <richarddulany@hotmail.com>
Subject: chill haze, happy accident
The recent post about hazy beer prompted me to share a clarifying technique
discovered by accident. I use my lager fridge to cold-stabilize wine. I
chill the wine to 27F for two weeks to cause the excess acids to crystallize
and fall out of solution. I had a case of Maibock lagering in the fridge
during the cold-stabilization process simply because I had no where else to
keep it. There had been a noticable chill haze, but after one week at 27F,
the beer cleared nicely. The yeast dropped to the bottom and formed a
compact layer that isn't easily disturbed. And, no chill-haze reformed when
the beer returned to normal refrigerator temperature--about 36F. Try it.
Your beer won't freeze at 27F.
Songbird
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:16:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Aaron Robert Lyon <lyona@umich.edu>
Subject: Burners and pumps
Hello fellow beer freaks,
Soon, I will be switching residences and wherever I end up living
will undoubtedly have less to offer in terms of brewing space than where I
am presently (I have an entire kitchen devoted to brewing and I do ten
gallons on a four burner gas stove with a 15 gallon brewpot covering them
all). In my future, I see a burner and a pump filling the void left by my
terrific brewing space.
Basically, I'm wondering what sort of burner I should get to put
under my 60 quart Polarware pot and what sort of pump I need to transfer
wort, etc. You should be aware that the Rubbermaid coolers I use as my
mash/lauter tun and hot liquor tank have spigots on the front that are
virtually identical to those found on bottling buckets. I don't know if
this is a significant factor.
I'm looking for a burner/pump combo that would come in at or under
$200 (I don't know if this would include a tank, help me out here people).
Any comments would be much appreciated. Ideally, I'd like to have this
ready for National Homebrew Day, but that may be pushing it. Thanks.
-Aaron
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:26:59 -0500
From: "ZANON, JON" <JEZANON@SEATSINC.COM>
Subject: Sour
Last week I asked about my method for chilling my wort. Thank you for your
help, I feel good about this now, I think?. BUT...Maybe I am getting ahead
of myself as the instructions said I should wait 2 weeks after bottling to
drink the beer and I tried it much sooner. What had tasted just like a
great brown ale ,albeit flat, at the time of bottling now has a sour taste.
I tasted it at bottling and it was great. I tasted it 2 days later and I
could taste the active yeast, then at one week it was definitly sour. Did I
try it too soon? Will it change again as the carbonation completes? Did I
contaminate it? I thought I was being extremely anal about sanitation at
bottling time. I used a one step no rinse sanitizer. My chiller coil was
actually sitting in a bucket of this right up till the water and wort went
in the fermenter, I had just rinsed the fermenter with the sanitizer just
before this. I sanitized the bottles with it and didn't rinse them out just
dumped them. Is it possible that I got too much of this left over in the
beer or did I contaminate it some how. Basically I would say that anything
that touched the wort had just been soaked in the solution and drained off
(not dried) before it contacted the wort. Should I have rinsed it? Next
time I plan to do as suggested, and boil the coil with the wort and then
chill the 2 gallons of wort down before I pour it into the fermenter, so it
is absolutely as close to sterile as possible instead of soaking it in the
sanitizer till use. There is chlorine in the water, and the amount varies
day to day, I could smell it on the day of I started the wort but I really
couldn't taste it. I don't want to make whatever mistake I made last time
again. I thought I did everything short of wearing scrubs, a mask, and
gloves like a surgeon. Last time I made beer(in the early 80's) the only
thing different that I can see is that I used bleach and or camdem tablets
and so always rinsed things off before use. Also I didn't try to use a
chiller I just let it cool in a watertub or a snow bank.
Jonathan E. Zanon
Director of Manufacturing
Seats Incorporated
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:43:34 -0400
From: stencil <stencil@bcn.net>
Subject: Re: Pot Drains?
In Homebrew Digest #3610 (April 18, 2001)
Michael wrote:
> [ ... ] I think the metal in the pot is too thin to weld?
>Any ideas if there is such a thing. A metal spigot with a bulhead type device
>has to be made. I have tried searching the net, found lot of large heavy duty
>(big) valves. Nothing that would fit on a stainless stove pot.
>
http://www.bobbrews.com/EquipmentMainFrame.htm
The Zymico Weld-Be-Gone; works fine, lasts a long time. I
have these installed on 3-, 5-, and 8-gallon aluminum
stock pots.
stencil sends
RKBA!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:16:05 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy@bergsman.org>
Subject: cheese digest
A few people have written me regarding my reference to the cheese list. The
Cheese Makers' Digest is run by our beloved janitors. I can't find the page
on hbd.org that explains how to sign up but parsing the unsubscribe info
from the bottom of today's digest you should send the word "subscribe",
without the quotes, to cheese-request@hbd.org. For a list of other useful
commands, send the word "help", less the quotes, to cheese-request@hbd.org.
The digest comes out almost every day but traffic probably averages <2
posts/day. Our own Jack Schmidling encouraged the formation of the list and
is the lead poster. There are other cheesemaking lists too but I haven't
tried those yet. Maybe Jack or somebody can start to put together a miniFAQ
for cheese.
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy@bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: hops comparison?
Is there a good online, or failing that a book resource giving the various
flavor/aroma characterists of the various hops?
Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl@mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net
"You want the government to handle your medical care? You want the
government to take care of your retirement? Go stand in line at a post
office." -- Neil Boortz
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:51:19 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam@earthlink.net>
Subject: BJCP Exam In Philadelphia Area
A BJCP Exam is currently scheduled for Sunday June 3rd in Malvern, PA.
Currently I have had only mild interest with no firm commitments. If we
don't get firm commitments from the minimum number of examinees by the May
1st, we will be forced to postpone the exam, most likely until the Fall.
Should you, or anyone you know, be interested in taking this exam, please
contact me immediately. Firm commitment is a $10 deposit. We will schedule
a few preparatory classes in May for the examinees who need them.
David Houseman
housemanfam@earthlink.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:05:22 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Temperature Controllers
Rick,
You can use the Johnson mechanical teperature controller for either heating
or cooling by making a simple change to the internal wiring. First remove
the cover to access the switch inside. You will see three wires. Hot
(black), neutral (white) and ground (green). The wires on the switch are
connected with screws for easy removal. You will want to move the black
wire to the center terminal and leave the white one as it is. The center
terminal is covered with a tiny plastic plug which makes it really hard to
see. Simply pull this plug out and reconnect the black wire to that
terminal. Now the controller will switch the power ON with a DROP in
temperature instead of OFF. That is the only difference between a heater
controller and a refrigeration controller. I have two of these units that
work very well for me.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:07:40 -0400
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc@finerty.net>
Subject: Re: Serving line
hi,
consider this observation: moving liquid through small bore tubing
requires more force per unit volume than moving this same volume
though a larger bore tube.
here's what i think is going on...
this is a result of 'back pressure' or whatever name you want to call
it. a fraction of the liquid inside the tubing contacts the walls of
the tube, depending on it's surface area to volume ratio. as the ID of
the tubing decreases this fraction in contact increases. i.e. the
ratio of the surface area of the column of liquid relative to its
volume decreases significantly. why does this matter? because the
liquid is not simply in contact with the walls of the tubing but forms
transient bonds to it (hydrogen bonds, etc) which must be overcome to
move this part of the liquid through the tube. if you examine flow
through a perfectly smooth and straight tube (no deformations, etc)
the flow is cone shaped with the fastest flow rates in the center of
the column of liquid and the lowest at the liquid-tubing boundary. as
the ID of the tubing decreases the absolute volume of liquid that is
able to flow rapidly because it is not in contact with the tubing
decreases. as a result, the pressure increases.
so, there exists a length of tubing capable of generating sufficient
backpressure to balance the pressure in the keg. with large ID tubing
this will be one heck of a long piece of tubing but if you find
something with a relatively small ID it will take much less.
at least that's my understanding of things!
-patrick in Toronto, just pretending to know fluid dynamics...
On Tuesday 17 April, 2001, Dr. John wrote:
> How long should the liquid-out line be on a keg? I've heard that if it is
> long enough, you can keep the keg at pressure and serve at the same
> pressure. To be honest, though, I don't quite understand how this works. It
> doesn't make sense to me that the keg pressure and the serving pressure at
> the end of a line of fixed width would differ.
- --
"There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
finger pfinerty@nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
http://finerty.net/pjf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:17:02 -0400
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc@finerty.net>
Subject: Re: iodine test for yeast glycogen levels? Any inputs?
howdy,
a while back Dr. Clayton Cone addressed glycogen levels in yeast on
the hbd but i don't recall a specific test he mentioned. see this
link:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3315.html#3315-1
i think this is mainly important for preparing dry yeast for storage
so that they will start rapidly when added directly to wort. if you're
preparing a starter culture then this shouldn't be such an issue
unless you're trying to prepare healthy stocks for yourself...
-patrick in Toronto
On Tuesday 17 April, 2001, Dan Diana wrote:
> I have been having troubles of late getting my yeast cultures to come
> out of hibernation and be as active as I would like. I've been using the
> pitchable products with starters. In doing some research on the subject, I
> came across a comment [I've quoted it here] made in Fix's Principles of
> Brewing Science, p. 98:
>
> "Since yeast starvation and glycogen depletion are strongly correlated, it
> is important for brewers to measure the glycogen levels in yeast batches to
> be pitched. This is particularly true of yeats that have been stored. There
> is a simple iodine test for glycogen levels in yeast".
- --
"There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
finger pfinerty@nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
http://finerty.net/pjf
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:18:23 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Serving line
Dr. John,
The basic principle is that as the beer flows through the line it will
encounter frictional resistance and therefore a pressure drop much as
electricity does through a wire. This loss is significant because you will
dispense the beer at very low pressures. The ideal situation is a balanced
system where the keg is pressurized to provide the desired amount of
carbonation plus a few more psi to overcome the line resistance and allow
the beer to flow. Too much pressure and the beer will gush out and foam.
Here is a link that explains it in detail. There is no ideal length for the
beer line. The best choice depends on the diameter of the line, the
temperature and the degree of carbonation desired:
http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/beer/draft.html
Here is one more tip. Use 3/16ths inch inside diameter tubing for you beer
line. This will allow higher keg pressure without causing excess foaming.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:26:48 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pot Drains?
Michael,
Here is the item you are seeking. Also check out some of the other
homebrewing goodies he has listed on this site:
http://www.zymico.com/weld-b-gone
This is a weldless bulkhead fitting and valve designed specifically for your
purpose.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:43:44 -0400
From: "David Houseman" <housemanfam@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bottling Caps
George,
I was very interested in your move to use bottling caps without any
sanitation treatment at all. I take it from this continued practice that
you haven't had any bottle infections attributable to these caps. Do you
only bottle for competitions from a keg or do you regularly bottle beer?
Any beers (barleywines, for example) bottled for longer term storage? Have
you cultured any caps to determine the degree and types of any bacteria or
wild yeasts that might or might not be present? I'd really like to start
doing this as well, but before I do, I'd prefer to know that the success is
more than anecdotal....
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:59:59 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob@elp.rr.com>
Subject: Fermentation Chiller Kits now available
With the encouragement of members of the HBD readership, we have
launched The Gadget Store with the goal of bringing to you the
Fermentation Chiller Kit (and other products). See our web page for
details.
Visit us at http://www.gadgetstore.bigstep.com
Thanks!
Ken Schwartz & Klaus Messerer
- --
*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob@elp.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:20:06 -0400
From: "Doug Craftchick" <Nicklebender@hotmail.com>
Subject: PIDs and Good Home Brewing internet Club
Greetings Fellow Brewers:
I've noticed over the years I've been reading the HBD lot of brewers buy a
PID for the rims and one for the fridge and on and on but almost no one uses
PLCs. So why is this? they are common and cheap(used or new in some cases).
And if any one out there has used a Modicon 984 can they recomend a good
MMI?
And I just wanted to plug website my friends and I created earlier this year
for brewing, wine and mead. All are welcome to post and chat. So pull up a
stool and join us at GHB!
http://forums.delphi.com/homebrew007/start
Cheers Doug Craftchick
Sudbury, Canada
Nicklebender@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:06:44 EDT
From: Socinian@aol.com
Subject: Kegerator which frige to get
So, I've got my elaborate kegging system,
but finding a minifrige to adapt into a
kegerator has proven difficult. I don't
want to use a full size frige with a
freezer, because I want to use the top of
the frige for serving. I want to put a
draft tower onto the top of a minifrige
basically. I also want to serve to kegs
at once. The problem I'm having is
finding a refrigerator of appropriate size.
The largest model I've found is 4.3 cubic
feet, the GE spacemaker model. Is 4.3 cubic
feet sufficient? Is anyone familiar with
this model? Is there a model that anyone's
using for this purpose that's working well?
Any help is really appreciated.
Jeff
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3611, 04/19/01
*************************************
-------
