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HOMEBREW Digest #3603
HOMEBREW Digest #3603 Tue 10 April 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Re: I repeat myself when under stress (Christopher Farley)
RE: Drying Carboys ("Cuchulain Libby")
Re: Switch it up a little ("Ian Forbes")
Sticky Mash and Loose Fingers ("Phil & Jill Yates")
pubcrawler.com (mohrstrom)
HSA, cleaning & dry carboys ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Lambic question ("Hertz, Jeffrey")
re: Hot Oxidation & Here we go again..../End of Boil Wort pH ("Stephen Alexander")
mega mashing ("Hill, Steve")
Water & Lambic & Leffe Q's & PID Suggestion ("Jay Wirsig")
Steeping Specialty Grains & Drying Carboys ("John Zeller")
Counterflow Cleaning -> pouncing! ("Daniel C Stedman")
Re: Dry Carboys (Mike Mckinney)
Re: Here we go again.... (Spencer W Thomas)
CO2 cylinders (JGORMAN)
cleaning keg lube ("Stephen")
Re: Steeping Specialty Grains (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer@indsys.ge.com>
colour of malts ("elvira toews")
Re: Wonderful World of Zymico ("The Holders")
Changing over... (root)
Re: End of Boiling Wort pH (RBoland)
Mini Kegs ("Tom Byrnes")
de-fizz beer ("Songbird Tulip")
Re: Steeping Specialty Grains & Drying Carboys (The Man From Plaid)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 00:39:23 -0500
From: Christopher Farley <chris@northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: I repeat myself when under stress
The Disciplined Marc Gaspard wrote:
> Someone else already mentioned it, but I missed the mark on the
> Duvel clone yeast suggestion. It was the Wyeast 1388 Strong
> Ale yeast I meant, not the high gravity Trappist 3787. I've used
> both, but the post I wrote below WAS 1388.
I do remember one thing:
White Lab's WLP570 Belgian Golden Ale Yeast is an obvious choice
for doing Duvel or Delirium Tremes type beers. Too bad it's only
available in Jan/Feb.
The more I brew with it, the more I like it...
- --
Christopher Farley
www.northernbrewer.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 04:45:33 -0500
From: "Cuchulain Libby" <cuchulain@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Drying Carboys
>Does anyone have a faster way to dry carboys out?
>Thanks,
>Nils Hedglin
My neighbor brews. How do I know? Outside his shed is a sawhorse with
several carboys inverted on holes drilled through the cross-member. They sit
there for weeks/months until needed, must be eight of 'em.
Turns out he makes wine from the wild mustang grapes here in SoTex.
-Hound
ICQ 83719527
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:18:54 -0400
From: "Ian Forbes" <ian.forbes@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Switch it up a little
Casey asks:
"...What would happen if you put a lager yeast in say, a London porter, and
fermented at lager temps...or even ale
temps for that matter."
Not sure you want to ferment a lager yeast at ale temps (but if you let us know
how it turns out), but I do know that a Porter with lager yeast at lager temps
can be quite tasty. Very clean with, obviously, less fruitiness, but that's ok
as the other flavors (roastiness, coffee...) flavors really shine. A commercial
of a porter brewed with lager yeast is Yuengling Porter.
"...the insulation became quit large from the wobbly drilling. What kind of
insulation should I use to fill it so as to not lose any precious cold air."
You could use Great Stuff which is an expanding foam insulation in an aerosol
can. One suggestion would be to wrap the lines or shank with wax paper so that
you can remove them after the Great Stuff dries.
Cheers!
Ian in Hamden, CT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:26:17 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: Sticky Mash and Loose Fingers
Pat Babcock asks :
>Hmmmm... Isn't tannin extraction a function of pH? About all >high
>temperature will do is to release starches which will never >be converted,
>resulting in hazy beer. It is the inability of the relatively low >quantity
>of malt to affect the high pH of water that causes the >tannins to be
>extracted into your beer...
I have mentioned this matter before but I am not sure that anyone took me
seriously (how rude of them!). It is my opinion that the magical pH of
around 6.0 when sparging simply relates to a point where little of the
sugars are left in your mash to be worth extracting. Possibly your sparging
water is around pH 7.0 and your mash pH might be 5.4.
The longer you sparge, the pH of the run off must increase towards that of
the sparge water. At pH 6.0 it is a good idea to cease all sparging (just
have a taste of what is coming out) because all meaningful extraction has
But on more concerning matters, John Hopoate has been accredited by Paul
Mahoney for causing a cessation of Aussie input on the HBD.
Paul, I must tell you that Aussies are not inclined to go quiet just because
a mate inserts his finger up your rectum! Quite the opposite in fact. This
sort of practise was prolific at the Burradoo Hilton before I arrived here
and appointed myself as Baron. John Hopoate by the way was a regular patron.
No, I am afraid the mystery of the vanished Aussies goes a lot deeper than
John's exploring fingers.
I'm not sure where they have all got to. But when I find them their rectums
will be a lot sorer than would have resulted from a game of footy with John
Hopoate!!
Cheers
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:43:26 -0400
From: mohrstrom@humphreypc.com
Subject: pubcrawler.com
Dave Hume is rightfully concerned:
> pubcrawler.com is no longer responding. Does anyone know if
> they have shut down?
Recently, Pubcrawler announced that they had been acquired, and that
changes were in the offing. Pubcrawler has been - and hopefully still will
be - a wonderful resource for those like me who must roam the earth in
servitude to our employers. Some days on the road, it's only beer and
baseball offering solace. In the off season, I'm down to just beer ...
Mark (for the moment) in Kalamazoo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:57:12 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: HSA, cleaning & dry carboys
John Zeller wrote of HSA:
>I was under
>the impression that there IS a general consensus that HSA was not really a
>big concern. [snip] The other point would be that there is not much you
>can do to avoid it other than be as gentle with the hot wort as possible
>when transferring it from one vessel to another and chillig it as quickly
as
>you can. What else can be done?
John, I'd say the above statement regarding HSA concerns is not correct.
Many here do seem to be concerned but it seems to be an accepted possible
phenomenon for each batch. Many have decided to live with the possibility
of HSA and employ the simplest measures to reduce it's effects: gentle
transfers of hot wort, no splashing, chilling quickly and partially covered
boils (keeps a steam cover on the surface).
Then there are those who do nothing and those who go to great measure to
reduce the risk of HSA: floating plastic balls on the surface, CO2 blankets,
enlisting the help of the devil... ok... only Graham does this. [that
should lure him out of his hole]
The funny thing is that all 3 methods can yield great beer. But the
question is - how consistently?
>Papazian himself doesn't seem to be afraid
>of straining hot wort. That for sure must be a risky procedure.
Charlie doesn't seem to worry about much. His "don't worry" philosophy
seems to work in that he's not worrying and therefore, not fiddling. I know
that "fiddling" has been the downfall of a few of my brews ;-)
Ken Johnson wrote of cleaning & sanitizing CF chillers:
>I have never done anything past a good
>rinsing and an occasional (every 15-20 batches) weak mix of water and PBW
>or TSP on my own equipment. [snip] I still maintain that all you
>really need to do is rinse thoroughly just before and just after chilling a
>batch of beer.
My question is: If you remove the food source for bacteria, yeasts and mold
by thoroughly rinsing your equipment after use, what will those nasty bugs
live on? I maintain that Ken's practice of rinsing is a good one and will
reduce the contaminant population inside the CF chiller to a manageable
level. However, sanitizing all of your equipment will help to reduce the
overall contaminant population as contaminations are additive throughout the
process.
>I realize that I will now be pounced upon by
>the scientists and the engineers. So be it!
Don't worry Ken, I have no desire to pounce on another man ;-)
>Counterflow chillers don't ruin beer.
>Sloppy brewers ruin beer. Funny part is that the sloppy brewer who blames a
>bad batch on a counterflow chiller, probably added several infections from
>everything BUT the chiller!
Very true, many brewers would rather blame their equipment or other factor
outside of their control on a crappy batch instead of admit their failure.
Want to hear a million excuses? Play golf. Damn club, damn glove, friggin'
shoes, crappy putter, *&^%# hand grips, the goose distracted me, do you mind
not chewing so loudly, who put that tree there?!?...
Nils asked about drying carboys:
>After I wash my carboys, I like to seal them with plastic wrap to keep the
>bad stuff out. But, I don't want to do that until all the water has
>evaporated out of it since I'd think the water could possibly mildew in the
>enclosed carboy.
Don't worry too much about mildew. Have never seen it happen to any of
mine. I sanitize all my glass overnight with stong bleach (1 oz/gal) and
just dump it out the next morning. No rinse. I throw an aluminum foil cap
on top and store it in the attic until needed again. As long as you keep it
sealed, nothing will get in. Inverted is still open to the air. While the
possibility of a current carrying a few nasties upwards into your carboy is
low, it is still higher than zero, which is what you get with a sealed
container. The water doesn't evaporate out, but then, mildew and wild
yeasts can't beam themselves in either. Plus, you should be sanitizing
again before use anyway. Your best bet is to store them clean, sanitized,
sealed and empty.
Let's see 3 subjects X my 2 cents = 6 cents, please!
Does anyone have change of a dime?!?
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:21:47 -0500
From: "Hertz, Jeffrey" <HertzJ@nuveen.com>
Subject: Lambic question
> I've never submitted anything to this forum before, so here goes....
>
>
> To give my quick story, I am in the process of fermenting my first
> plambic, a raspberry one nonetheless, and did the primary using a basic
> ale yeast (1056) and then transferred into a secondary, and added the
> wyeast lambic blend and two cans of sterilized raspberry puree. That was
> about two months ago, I tasted it last night and of course there's some
> funky lambic-ee type stuff, but I think most of the sugar from the
> raspberries has been consumed as well. I'd really like to get a little
> more sweet raspberry flavor. Should I add another can of puree and bottle
> soon after, or add some flavor concentrate like you'd use for a regular
> type fruit beer or are there any other alternatives? My worry with more
> puree is that the beer will be somewhat sedimenty (is that a word?) and
> the sugar in it might be eaten by the yeasties and produce raspberry bomb
> bottles. I've used fruit concentrates before and had good luck with the
> flavor quality, but the purist in me would rather use real fruit. Any
> ideas? Maybe next time I should just lambic-ize the base beer, then add
> the puree near the end of fermentation.
>
>
> Jeff Hertz (hertzj@nuveen.com)
>
> -Try not, do or do not, there is no try.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 10:40:22 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Hot Oxidation & Here we go again..../End of Boil Wort pH
John Zeller writes ...
>This question raises its ugly head every so often and the general consensus
>seems to be that the problem is largely a myth.
Myth !! I can point you to many journal articles on the sources and impact
of oxidation in beer. In fact trans-nonenals (the cardboard aroma) is
almost solely attributable to mash oxidation. Whether it is important to
HBers who drink all their beers in under 8 weeks is another issue but it's
not a myth.
>Hot side aeration (HSA) is a possibility if you introduce excessive
>amounts of air into the hot wort with a lot of splashing, shaking,
>vigorous stirring or mixing, but with normal care it isn't likely to occur.
No - the oxygen which is involved in this oxidation (oxygen is not required
for oxidative processes) may already appear in grain components at mash in.
For example beer from wet milled grist has a significantly lower oxidation
potential than that from dry milled grist apparently because of oxidation of
the cracked grist when exposed to air.
It is known that enzyme systems in the mash can use saturation level
dissolved oxygen very quickly (on the order of one minute). There are many
oxidative processes in the mash which compete for this oxygen and which have
variable flavor results. After the dissolved oxygen is used up the oxygen
at the surface interface is sufficient to cause the reaction of several
times more O2 into the mash goods. Reaction of the surface layer of the
mash/boiler is the primary source of oxygen uptake in wort. Splashing and
stirring will introduce more O2, but one critical factor in the amount of
trans-nonenal developed is the amount/activity of lipo-oxygenase enzyme in
the malt.
>Just be as gentle as you can when transferring hot wort. HSA is not a
>problem during the actual boiling because the oxygen is driven off by the
>heat.
There are no enzyme processes involved in the boil, but it is certainly
possible to oxidize phenolic compounds in the boil. This is well known by
anyone attempting to make a light colored pils. The resulting wort color
difference from a covered vs open boil with this light colored wort is quite
obvious. The same changes occur in darker worts, but are not visible.
Oxidized vs unoxidized phenolics are a significant flavor factor too, while
unoxidized simple phenolics often lend to a brisk freshness, oxidized
phenolics give a more tired even stale or bitter flavor. This factor is
unlikely to ruin a beer, but it may have an impact.
[...and in another post...]
>I did look through the archives, but it was quite a while ago. I was under
>the impression that there IS a general consensus that HSA was not really a
>big concern.
It limits the 'shelf-life' of your beer and may impact the freshness of the
beer's flavor too.. Oxidized lipids slowly, after fermentation ceases,
start to break down giving off-flavored products. Other issues like
oxidized phenolics lead to a slight but more immediate deficit. There is
no clear demarcation point, but it's reasonable to consider that some,
perhaps most, of the losses in freshness and the compounding off-flavors as
any beer ages are due to oxidation, some part of which HSA.
I don't know how anyone else feels about beer aging, but I see that after a
'green' period when there may be yeast in suspension or 'unfinished'
flavors, there is a brief optimal flavor period followed by a slow decline.
Certainly the hops flavor and aroma changes from week to week. The malty
aspects change too - tho' more subtly. The briskness/freshness changes
rapidly too - ales just don't taste the same at 10 weeks as at 5 weeks, and
usually for the worse. My perception and experience is that bottle
conditioned beers retain remarkable freshness/crispness as compared to
kegged beer, and perhaps related, that krausened beers compare positively to
unkrausened in terms of freshness.
>If it was, I would think that any beer made with a RIMS would
>suffer because of it.
It is a design concern, but a properly operating RIMS shouldn't entrain
oxygen in the mash.
>The other point would be that there is not much you
>can do to avoid it other than be as gentle with the hot wort as possible
>when transferring it from one vessel to another and chilling it as quickly
as
>you can. What else can be done?
I just repeated an experiment suggested by Charles Bamforth, by making a
split batch pils (back in early January) and adding 1.5gm of sodium
metabisulphite (campden's tablets) to the mash of one 5gal batch. This
should prevent some of the oxidative processes which otherwise take place in
the mash. The wort was a little overhopped (miscalculation) so flavor
differences didn't show clearly until mid-march, but the metabite mash pils
was definitely crisper and a shade lighter in color too. Not that either
was bad - if fact both were quite fetching after the hop flavor declined a
bit.
One could also mash and boil with a lid on, blow CO2 or nitrogen thru the
grist, mash-in with de-oxygenated water, float an O2 barrier on the
mash/boiler - I can think of a lot of steps to take to decrease HSA.
>I have not
>experienced any obvious oxidation related problems, but then my brews get
>consumed rather quickly so maybe that is the reason.
True - and you probably haven't performed a fair comparison of your current
procedures vs the least oxidative procedures you reasonable can use. No one
is claiming your beer is ruined because you failed to use a lid, but it
probably has an impact that you could taste.
>I thought this issue
>had been put to rest a long time ago. This isn't the first time I have
been
>wrong and probably won't be the last.
I think there has been an increasing understanding (on my part at least)
that the major impact occurs early in the mash. Yes you can harm a beer by
blowing air through it later, but all things being equal - the early mash
period is the most critical.
HSA is a minor factor in beer flavor - that is true - but so are mash pH,
mashout temps, lauter water pH, decoction and yeast vitality & state &
pitching rate. You can make very good beer ignoring all of these (within
limits), but better beer by paying attention to them.
- --
Russ Kruska says,
... the taste effects of wort pH at the end of the boil.
>Various publications I have read say to try to adjust the final pH to
around
>5.2 (room temp). But I was wondering if different styles benefit from
>variations
Few sources I've seen suggest post boil adjustment. The wort pH should
drop a few tenths during the boil naturally. W/in reasonable limits the
post boil pH has little impact on flavors. The yeast enjoy a lower pH but
they will create this environment themselves in a few hours. Some sources
suggest dropping the pH to about 4.9 in order to assist the yeast in
uptaking vitamin co-factors, but I'd reserve that cure for cases (like high
gravity brewing) where the disease is immanent.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:13:02 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <Steve.Hill@apfs.com>
Subject: mega mashing
Good morning:
I am in search of some mega mashing. My buddy and I did a sami close clone
last year and it finally got into bottles about 2 months ago. HEY SEDOM- WE
STILL HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN YOU -- YOU WILL BE RECEIVING SOME SAMPLES.
My friend and I both used our mash tuns and did first runnings with 70 lbs
of grain -- YUMMY!
What I want to achieve is a container to be able to fit at least 75-120lbs
of grain. My thoughts were maybe to weld a sanke keg on top of another keg
OR to buy a 35 gallon stainless steel barrel.
My concerns are depth of grain Vs the size of the vessel. I will be BATCH
sparging so over extraction will not be my concern. My concern is running
my pump for re-circing and getting too thick of a filter bed.
Any thoughts or idea's from the masses?
Thanks
Steve Hill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:13:32 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig@can.dupont.com>
Subject: Water & Lambic & Leffe Q's & PID Suggestion
Water Question:
Most folks who responded to my water question felt that my water required
no adjustment. This puzzled me as the alkalinity is 89 ppm and Ca was 36
ppm. I thought that the calcium would be entirely consumed by the
alkalinity as the water was heated (Ca CO3), leaving little Ca but
additional buffering alkalinity. What ppm level of alkalinity can a
pilsner malt handle? Are there acids in the malt that neutralize the
alkalinity that occur instead of the Ca CO3 reaction?
Lambic Question
I wish to do my first Lambic this year. I really like the kriek &
framboise and Gueze. I prefer the sour complex styles vs Bellevue (which
I find difficult to believe it is true to style). I have ordered the
Lambic Style series book, as well I have the Zymergy "The allure of
Lambic". Seeing has how amature brewing is advancing in leaps and bounds
every year I was wondering if there is any new information out there or if
there was a Lambic "Specialist" (someone who has had consistant success
producing sour complex lambic -gueze ) on the HBD that I would be
interested in corresponding with me. I have just sent a request to
subscribe to the lambic digest - not sure if is still a going concern but
hope so!
Leffe
Has anyone got a clone recipe for this beer. I suspect that the yeast
strain/fermentation temps are the big secret.
PID Suggestion:
Someone wrote about temperature control of the mash during stepping. A PID
controller can be "tuned" by adjusting the Proportion, Intergal &
Deriviative (PID) to bring you to the temperature without overshooting.
You may wish to "tune" it for temperature boosts (one set of constants for
PID values) and tune it for temperature maintenance (a second set of
constants for PID values). To my mind this would be a complete waste of
time but an interesting intellectual exercise that one can do and tell our
non brewing buddies about to sound even more geeky than we already are. If
your interest has been peaked I suggest a seach of the net under PID
controllers will bring you to several manufacture's sites that can tell you
how a PID controller works and how to tune. My preference for tuning is
the Ziegler Nicholls method - I got it off the net. Since it is the grain
bed temperature that we wish to control I believe that the themocouple
should be placed in the grain bed not the recirculation line also I have
found that a light fire under the tun (converted keg) while the grain is
being recirculated works well for faster ramping - I just shut it off a few
degrees before final temp is reached and let the PID do its thing.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 09:25:20 -0700
From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Steeping Specialty Grains & Drying Carboys
Pat (The Man From Plaid),
You posted:
"Hmmmm... Isn't tannin extraction a function of pH? About all high
temperature will do is to release starches which will never be converted,
resulting in hazy beer. It is the inability of the relatively low quantity
of malt to affect the high pH of water that causes the tannins to be
extracted into your beer..."
Hmmmm...Papazian says in The Home Brewer's Companion (page 31):
"For ideal extraction of the favorable qualities of any malt, the crushed
grain should never be brought to a boil. Some recipes and procedures guide
beginning brewers to bring these specialty malts just to a boil and quickly
remove them from the heat source. This is a simple procedure designed to
encourage their use by beginning brewers. For those who desire to improve
the quality of their beers with a small additional investment in time and
attention, the grains should never be steeped in water whose temperature
exceeds 170 degrees F (77 degress C). The extraction of undesirable tannin
and astringent characters is minimized with a lower-temperature steep"
...and again in The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing (page 55):
"This question has been debated by many homebrewers and many homebrewing
books. The fact is that when any whole grain is boiled in a wort, the
latter will absorb certain flavors that are extracted from the husks of the
grain, such as a certain amount of tannin and other substances. The flavor
of tannin can be described as astringent or noticeably dry or grainy."
Dave Miller mentions something similar in his book, The complete handbook of
Home Brewing (page 100):
"Many recipes call for boiling specialty grains in the kettle with the
extract wort. This procedure leaches large amounts of tannin from the
husks, and can give a harsh "puckery" taste to the finished beer."
These books were the source of my advice to Nils on the problem he describes
as a harsh, spoiled pickle zing in his brew. Dunno what his ph was at.
Maybe that could also be part of the problem.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:58:51 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman"@uhc.com>
Subject: Counterflow Cleaning -> pouncing!
Ken Johnson gives the following advice:
>I have never done anything past a good
>rinsing and an occasional (every 15-20 batches) weak mix of water and PBW
>or TSP on my own equipment. I realize that I will now be pounced upon by
>the scientists and the engineers. So be it! I still maintain that all you
>really need to do is rinse thoroughly just before and just after chilling a
>batch of beer.
Hmmm... Sounds like some bad beer just waiting to happen. I think we all need to
be a little more deligent in our sanitation of CF chillers than the advice
above. My standard procedure is to recirculate some PBW through the chiller,
pump, and connecting lines after every brew. Then when it comes time to use it
for the next brew, I boil the entire thing (it's an all-copper PBS MaxiChiller)
for 15 minutes, then drop the boiling water through it. I used to just rinse my
chiller after every brew, but had a couple of infected batches that lead me to
change my chiller sanitation process. Haven't had a bad batch since I started
using the above cleaning procedure. I believe that CF chillers are a common
source of infection in both the homebrew world and in the microbrewery world. In
fact, I remember a couple of posts here a couple of years ago about a pro
discovering the source of infections in his microbrewery being his plate
chiller. Remember - when you are talking full volume boils, the lines, chiller,
and fermenter are the only things that touch your cooled wort. Keep these three
things clean and sanitary and you will never have problems w/ infections...
Dan in Minnetonka
BTW - I brewed last Saturday. 12 gallons of First Wort Hopped 1.052 American
Pale Ale are fermenting away as we speak. Should be done in time for the
Northern Brewer Homebrew Competition. Hope it is good!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 12:24:15 -0500
From: Mike Mckinney <mikemck@austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Carboys
"Abby, Ellen and Alan" writes:
>Nils Hedglin asked "Does anyone have a faster way to dry carboys out?
>
>I don't dry them out at all but leave them full to the lip with a very
>mild sanitizing solution. Maybe this is a worse idea for reasons I am
>not aware of but it's my current practice.
The only drawback I can think of is if one of them breaks for some reason...
At least if you break a dry carboy all you have to clean up is glass.
- --
mikemck@austin.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 11:20:02 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Here we go again....
>>>>> "John" == John Zeller <jwz_sd@hotmail.com> writes:
John> Papazian himself doesn't seem to be
John> afraid of straining hot wort. That for sure must be a risky
John> procedure.
That for sure IS a risky procedure. I have tasted many oxidized beers
resulting from this practice.
Oxidation is a sneaky beast. The flavor effect doesn't happen all at
once. It can be minimized by good storage practice (cool). It can be
exacerbated by shipping (heat & agitation) your beer to a competition.
The flavor effects can be subtle -- a slight "winyness," or some loss
of hop flavor, or a mild increase in "huskiness" -- or severe -- the
beer tastes like sherry, or wet cardboard, or has a very harsh flavor.
If you keep your beer cold and drink it quickly, you may never
detect the effects of of the rough handling your wort received. If you
keep it a long time and ship it to a competition in the summer, you
may be unpleasantly surprised and confused at the poor scores and
comments you get back. ("But it doesn't taste that way to me?!")
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer@umich.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:40:00 -0400
From: JGORMAN@steelcase.com
Subject: CO2 cylinders
I have an old CO2 cylinder that failed the hydro test. Is there any way to
refurbish it so it will pass and can be reused? Are there any places that
take them in on trade or is it a boat anchor?
Jason Gorman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:22:22 -0400
From: "Stephen" <stephennyc@about.com>
Subject: cleaning keg lube
Last month there was a bit of talk about keg lube - what's the best
way to clean that stuff off my stuff? I find the stuff is just about
impossible to easily remove.
- Steve (mostly lurking...)
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:52:19 -0400
From: "Moyer, Douglas (IndSys, SalemVA)" <Douglas.Moyer@indsys.ge.com>
Subject: Re: Steeping Specialty Grains
The Janitor from Plaid spake thusly:
"Hmmmm... Isn't tannin extraction a function of pH? About all high
temperature will do is to release starches which will never be converted,
resulting in hazy beer. It is the inability of the relatively low quantity
of malt to affect the high pH of water that causes the tannins to be
extracted into your beer..."
Whoa there, Plaidboy! Unless your water has some amazing buffering
abilities, the specialty grains are going to drop that pH right into the
happy range (or near enough). "High" pH at the end of a sparge is one thing,
steeping specialty grains is entirely another.
Okay science folks.... attack!
(Ow! Hey, I meant Pat, not me!)
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:42:01 -0500
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1@home.com>
Subject: colour of malts
AJ took the time to reply:
"I think you have answered your own question. The "color" of a
malt is the color of a laboratory mash made with it. The little color
cards ... should, therefore, be applicable to test worts."
And AJ is right that I did kind of answer my own question. I think the
question I forwarded to the hbd is still somewhat valid in that it would be
nice to identify specialty grains by sight. The grain itself gives so
little hint of what it is. So I will look up the standard test method, have
a go at translating it into Spanish for our friend in Buenos Aires, and try
not to confuse things further.
A similar question was indeed on my mind. Before making a recent batch I
was trying to decide whether to add a bit of biscuit, Munich, aromatic,
melanoidin or Cara-pils to get the flavour I wanted. I crushed a small
sample of each, sniffed it, tasted it, chewed it, and so on, but nothing
really helps give an impression of how it will taste in the finished beer.
Maybe that's the lesson homebrewing teaches - results take months, progress
takes years.
Sean Richens
srichens@sprint.ca
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:10:45 -0700
From: "The Holders" <zymie@charter.net>
Subject: Re: Wonderful World of Zymico
Ed Jones asks for comments on Zymico products.
While my opinion of the products is biased by the fact that I have designed,
tested, and manufacture the products, here's my $.02.
I've set out to design rugged, affordable, quality homebrew products that
meet my own personal standards. I don't think that any of my products can be
beat for the price. I've chosen to make stainless steel my material of
choice, although there are bronze/brass versions for the thrifty folk.
(Sorry, no plastic)
Don't be too hard on your local homebrew store, as they probably have not
seen any Weld-B-Gone(TM), Bazooka Screen(TM) or Kewler Kitz(TM) products,
yet. Maybe they don't carry weldless kits because they don't like the look
of the ones they've seen so far. Maybe they would rather give you the
opportunity to make 3-4 trips to the hardware store, and who ever complains
about going there?
The Kewler Thermothingy(TM) is a brand new item, so it'll be quite rare if
you do get some third party feedback, but I assure you that it would not be
available if it didn't meet my standards. You will never see the words "DO
NOT OVERTIGHTEN" on any of my products.
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com
"Overtightening, its the American way."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:34:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: root <root@brew.hbd.org>
Subject: Changing over...
Folks,
We'll soon be moving the HBD over to its new servers. If you are a
webmaster whose site is on the HBD server, please send webmaster@hbd.org
an e-mail if you update your site from now until we notify you of
completion of the change.
For users of the HBD and The Brewery, there will be a couple of brief
outages as (1) the servers are merged and (b) the servers are put on their
new racks. Please bear with us - these changes are being made to improve
the reliability of the HBD site in general.
We are also on the crux of a level of equipment failures I had not
anticipated! Our system monitor failed last night, taking the HBD server
(oddly) down with it! We are now running using the monitor from my
children's computer - much to their disappointment and against their
protests - until we can secure a replacement. Your continued donations
will help us to both afford the ISP services/requirements of the HBD as
well as replace failing equipment.
Another piece of equipment added recently to the junk pile is our DAT
drive used to back up the site. A suitable drive is several thousand
dollars (the HBD is now on a 60GB hard drive...). We need to purchase a
replacement to avoid a recurrence of the Fall of '99; however, with the
recent server purchases, we're nearing the limit of spending we can afford
without jeopardizing the internet connection. As much as I hate to ask,
please consider dropping a few buck in the mail or in PayPal to the HBD
Server Fund
via mail, checks payable to Pat Babcock can be sent to:
HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309
via paypal, payments can be sent to serverfund@hbd.org.
Finally, if anyone has decent discounts for either a DAT or a monitor,
we'd certainly appreciate your assistance!
Cheers!
The HBD Janitorial Staff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:03:52 EDT
From: RBoland@aol.com
Subject: Re: End of Boiling Wort pH
We've found that wort pH is a critical part of the style for Belgian Wit. A
low pH achieved by lactic acid addition gives a crispness that balances the
malt/wheat sweetness and yields a very refreshing taste. I imagine the same
is true for Berliner Weiss. I also like a bit of sharpness in a stout, so a
lowered pH might be helpful here also.
On another subject, has anyone put the new BJCP style guidelines in Palm
format?
Bob Boland
St. Louis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:43:30 -0400
From: "Tom Byrnes" <kmstfb2@exis.net>
Subject: Mini Kegs
I am considering supplementing bottling with a mini keg system
using the Philtap. Experienced users please provide your feedback (positive
& negative). Thanks Tom
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 22:58:13 -0600
From: "Songbird Tulip" <richarddulany@hotmail.com>
Subject: de-fizz beer
Problem: Over-carbonated beer
I kegged a 5 gal. batch of Stout and force-carbonated it. Due to events
beyond my control, I had to take the keg back out of the frigde and keep it
in the basement for 2 weeks. When I chilled it back down, I noticed that the
pressure relief valve had failed and let all the pressure out of the keg. I
force-carbonated it again and over-carbonated it. It's like warm Pepsi now
in terms of fizz. Is there any way to remove some of the dissolved CO2 from
this beer? I've bled off the gas repeatedly before drawing a pint and turned
my regulator down to 2-3 psi, but the beer still has an enormous amount of
dissolved gas in it. It's disgusting when it warms up--just like Pepsi.
Songbird
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:00:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Steeping Specialty Grains & Drying Carboys
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
"John Zeller" <jwz_sd@hotmail.com> writes...
> Hmmmm...Papazian says in The Home Brewer's Companion (page 31):
<snip>
> ...and again in The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing (page 55):
<snip>
> Dave Miller mentions something similar in his book, The complete handbook of
> Home Brewing (page 100):
<snip>
Yes, I have those books, too. And used to believe that the boiling of the
grain alone was the source of tannins in beers made by boiling the
specialty grains. And then I was exposed to decocting where 2/3 of the
grain from the thickest part of your mash are, well, boiled! Kind of
shoots Papazian and Miller all full o' holes, doesn't it? I mean, none of
those beers are overly astringent.
But fear not, lads! There is a solution. The pH in a tub o' grains from an
active mash will be very low. Say, 5.4 to 5.6. In a typical steep, the
bag of grains is dangled in a pot o' water with a pH of, barring
contaminants and doping, 7.0 - there usually just isn't enough grain to
significantly reduce the pH of the water in a typical specialty grain
steep.
Also, as you sparge in all-grain brewing, you monitor the pH to
determine when to stop. Why? Because as the acidic wort leaves the
grains, the pH of the grainbed and the spargate approach that of the hot
liquor. In most brewing tomes, we are admonished not to oversparge lest we
release evil tannins from the grain as well. Wait! How can this be if we
are not boiling the grains? The pH is increasing, that's how.
Where did I learn these gobbets, you ask? Why, right here in the HBD!
And if I could remember who specifically stepped me into the light of that
particular mystery, I'd rat him out, too :-)
I'm not trying to knock Papazian, Miller, or you. It's simply that I
believe that the references you cite provide the warning without fully
understanding the mechanism. The danger of extraction may increase with
temperature; however, the mechanism of extraction is not solely the
boiling, as I believe is evidenced by the fact of decoction.
As for the quality of reference, recall that CP espouses the practice of
adding 2T gypsum to your mash without any understanding of the base water.
I'm sure there a holes in Mr. Miller's shorts, too. Keep in mind that
these books were written by fellow hobbiests (at leastat the time of their
writing...) with references not much better than you have access to. They
are both excellent for their purpose, but don't expect them to be
encyclopaedic in their accuracy.
Besides, a "harsh, spoiled pickle zing" suggests something other than
astringency. Astringency is the feeling of a drying of the mouth, like as
you get with strong tea. A "pickle zing" could be many things - like an
acetic acid-producing bacteria, having fermented in an old pickle crock or
having used old extract.
(As an aside, many acidulate their hot liquor so that they can sparge to
their hearts' content without worry of tannin extraction. Another
indication of the mysterious connection between pH and tannin
extraction...)
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3603, 04/10/01
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