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HOMEBREW Digest #3566
HOMEBREW Digest #3566 Mon 26 February 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
re: zinc ("Stephen Alexander")
calibrating thermometers (Jeremy Bergsman)
re: Miami, FL Brewpubs ("Mark Tumarkin")
Re: Calibrating thermometers (Demonick)
Fightin' Canucks ("elvira toews")
calibrating thermometers (JDPils)
Kansas City Bier Meisters - Correction ("Mike Porter")
So How About The Beer? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
RE: Chillers ("Houseman, David L")
RE: Irish brews ("Houseman, David L")
Pubs in Dublin ("Warren White")
electric kettle ("Marc Hawley")
Thermometer Calibration ("Bret Mayden")
RIMS problem ("Matt Hollingsworth")
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Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:16:10 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: zinc
Paul writes ...
>I had the impression, though, that
>a typical all-grain wort had plenty of zinc from the malt itself,
>as documented by A.J. DeLange in some 1998 posts. Steve Alexander
>responded to AJ's measurements, though, pointing out that most of
>the zinc (and other metals) ends up trapped in the hot/cold break,
>unavailable to the yeast. AJ's later measurements on finished beer
>seem to rebut this, as does earlier lab work by Narziss.
Huh ? Nearly all of the malt zinc in AJs measure was lost between the malt
and the wort. He didn't measure separately for break loss. He ended up w/
0.2ppm in wort of one beer as I recall of a potential 40ppm or some such.
0.2ppm is fine for some yeast, and suboptimal for others. There is a
dependence on Mg level too. I can't predict whether a Zn (or copper or Mg)
addition will help your fermentation, but it's far from clear that all malts
in all break removal schemes provide sufficient Zn for optimal yeast
performance.
Some JIB papers suggest higher Zn removal figure than AJ got, and
correspondingly high removal rates of copper and other metal ions with
break. There are a couple of confounding factors here. Not all zinc is
available to the yeast, and yeast can use some zinc trapped in trub
carryover.
If Narziss says something different I'd love to read it. Got a reference ?
In a Brauwelt Int'l 1997 (Issue 1, pp 16) Narziss discusses getting improved
yeast performance in high gravity brewing and suggests lowering the wort pH
to 4.9-5.0 because this makes Zn more available to yeast and ... "Being a
co-enzyme of alcohol dehydrogenase, zinc has a decided influence on the
fermentation curve". In this case he makes zinc more accessible rather than
adding zinc, but one could certainly increase the availability by adding
zinc too.
>The Cleveland water analysis
>lists no detectable zinc.
Perhaps Lake Eire derived water is zinc deficient, but you'll be happy to
know that it has all the mercury and zebra mussels needed for yeast
nutrition !
>Finally, Dan Steadman suggested that the conical fermentor
>is at fault
A sub-15gal cylindroconical owner and his money are soon parted. Seems a
terribly expensive way to harvest yeast, and the principles of large CC
fermenter that improve fermentation performance don't apply on the smaller
scale.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:57:49 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy@bergsman.org>
Subject: calibrating thermometers
In addition to boiling and ice water, most people have access to a
thermometer that is (should be) accurate around 98.6F.
- --
Jeremy Bergsman
------------------
\ | Look! | /
\ | New contact info | /
_\/ ------------------ \/_
jeremy@bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy
_ _
/\ /\
/ \
/ \
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:07:09 -0500
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Miami, FL Brewpubs
H Dowda writes:
"In Miami near SE 2nd Ave, no car. Are there any brewpubs in the area or, for
that matter, in Miami or Ft. Lauderdale, woth a visit? "
as to the no car, Miami isn't the most public transportation friendly city but
it does have the Metrorail (a monorail system). I believe you'll be close to
it on SE 2 Av. it will take you to a station just blocks from the Titanic
Brewery. The stop will be called either University or South Miami - don't
remember, you'll have to check. The address is 5813 Ponce de Leon Blvd, phone
667-2537. I'm sure if you call they'll give you more accurate directions. The
brewer is Jamie Ray, a real nice guy and a hell of a brewer. Tell him I said
hi if he's in when you visit. They have a very nice assortment of beers on
tap - check out Capt Smith's Rye - World Beer Cup winner, Jamie's also won
medals at GABF. The food is also excellant- good restaurant, not just brewpub
fare.
You ask about Ft Lauderdale too - more of a problem without a vehicle. Not
much in Ft L, but if you get access of a car, you could check out Brewzzi in
Boca Raton (just a few miles N of Ft L). Call 561-392-2739 for directions.
They have won a GABF gold for their Alt and a silver for their Munich Helles.
Florida is a beer wasteland, but there are a few good beer oasis if you look.
The Titanic is one of my favorites.
Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, Fl
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:51:44 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick@zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Calibrating thermometers
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski@adelphia.net> points out:
> ... Using the freezing and boiling temperatures to calibrate can
> introduce a problem because of non-linearity over the range. ... I am
> most concerned at mash temperatures.
Actually, the technology employed in most thermometers is very nearly
linear. However, if you want to check near the midpoint of the freezing to
boiling range, YOU are a highly accurate temperature standard, and most
households have a highly accurate thermometer in this range.
I can imagine 3 different places to stick the thermometer, your mouth,
your armpit, and the third you'd probably need help with. To check
your thermometer, first take your temperature with a standard fever
thermometer, then use your brewing thermometer and compare.
Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152 phone
(206) 782-6766 fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com
FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:14:36 -0600
From: "elvira toews" <etoews1@home.com>
Subject: Fightin' Canucks
Alan in PEI writes:
>The commona usage here is "Upper Canadian" which is a sub-species of
>"come from away." Utterly derogatory until one has a visit to the
>Kingston Brewpub after which all such prejudice falls away.
Good thing I'm from Lower Canada.
Now if that don't get a rise out of an Albertan ;-)
Sean Richens
srichens@sprint.ca
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:10:59 EST
From: JDPils@aol.com
Subject: calibrating thermometers
Pete wrote,
<< Just a comment. Using the freezing and boiling temperatures to calibrate
can introduce a problem because of non-linearity over the range. I am not
too interested in being accurate at the two end points. I am most concerned
at mash temperatures. I use a very accurate "standard" thermometer to
calibrate my thermometers in the 150F to 170F range. That is where the
accuracy is needed. I then check the thermometer's error at around 70F so
my final chillout is close.
>>
Pete,
Why do you beleive the candy or metal probe thermometers are non linear? I
would think that they are linear. Do you have any refernece marterial on the
topic. I am really interested since I spent years mashing in about 5F over
what I thought until I used the boil/ice bath to calibrate. (By the Way all
the beers I made with inaccurate measurements were great). The glass ones
have a liquid in it which should expand at a linear rate until it goes thru a
phase change. The metal probes, I beleive are bi-metal and also have a
linear thermal expansion coefficient. I would agree there is some non
linearity at the extremes in terms of phase changes or suffucient temperature
to cause alloying of the bi metals.
Cheers,
Jim Dunlap
Woodinville WA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:56:25 -0600
From: "Mike Porter" <mike@dynamicanalysis.com>
Subject: Kansas City Bier Meisters - Correction
Due to a data entry, error Rick Georgette's (note that this is the correct
spelling) entry was listed as an extract brew in our records. IT WAS NOT AN
EXTRACT! It was one of the best all grain beers that I have tasted in a
long time. It WAS the best of show and it WAS the All Grain best of Show.
My apologies to Rick for the mistake.
We are currently examining the data base to determine which beer actually
represented the Extract BOS and will post as soon as we complete the
analysis.
Mike Porter
KCBM
Competition (will it ever be over?) Coordinator
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:21:09 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: So How About The Beer?
So what has become of the Yates/Pivo pilsner?
Well it has settled down to be a most enjoyable drop to drink. Certainly no
sign of diacetyl and strangely enough not the hoppiest of my creations,
rather odd considering the hop additions we poured into the kettle.
Did the three hour boil knock the hops on the head?
I think not. We kept adding hops right up to the finish of the boil.
But we were using real Czech saaz and usually my hops mostly come from New
Zealand. The Doc insisted we use the real thing which he brought along for
the days brewing.
Apart from the hops, the rest of our raw materials (malts and yeast) were
new to the Doc so it was always going to be a "let's see what happens"
result.
I would class it as a more hoppy version of a Coopers Pale Ale rather than
anything much like a Pilsner Urquell.
But it is a most enjoyable beer and has won instant popularity amongst the
beer enthusiasts of Burradoo, who number many. These are the folk who are
not homebrewers but interested beer drinkers and I find their opinions most
useful in assessing the beers I am making.
I promised the Doc I would run a parallel brew using a standard boil time
and a three hour boil time to assess any difference in the final beer.
Yeah well, when I get around to it.
Just for now the Doc has returned to Sweden and I am left with nearly 50
litres of a most enjoyable beer. And as I seem to be almost the only Aussie
left in here, I think I'll just sit back and drink it all to myself!
Cheers
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:16:53 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Chillers
The dualing chiller thread is interesting in that there seems to be a real
cost premium for the copper-outside-copper designs. As Eric points out
he's very pleased with his "fearless" and says it works as well as the all
copper models. I have one I made with the 3/8" copper tubing inside a 3/4"
garden hose. I don't have an all copper chiller to compare against but mine
seems to cool at the rates claimed by the all copper models. These all
copper models look great, but in reality do they work better? I certainly
understand the need for a copper inter tube for maximum heat transfer to the
water, but what value is there to the outside cold water jacket to be
copper? Some heat transfer to the surrounding air and that could be
positive or negative depending on the ambient air temperature. Has anyone
done a side by side comparison of cooling efficiency? As far as
cleaning/sanitizing, I suppose one could boil the entire all copper units to
sanitize it, I'd wager you'd still have to clean the inter tube anyway or
the buildup would have negative impact over time.
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:28:59 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Irish brews
Greg,
Thanks for the kind words. IMHO you could brew a number of beers with the
same yeast. I sometimes try to purchase a specific yeast for a specific
style, but often use something close and it works fine. Just look at the
qualities of the yeast and then look at similar styles of beer. An ale
yeast that provides good attenuation and provides low levels of fruitiness
could be used in brown ales, milds, stouts, etc. Even the pale ale would
not be too far out of character. With all the variables in brewing, getting
an exact yeast is not that critical. Of course there are specific styles
that really require a specific yeast, such as Weizens and many Belgians.
But then you can make a Weizen then use the yeast for a Weizenbock or
Dunkelweizen. Or brew a Belgian Pale Ale then use the yeast in Belgian
strong ale. My favorite is make a Wit and use the yeast for a Tripel.
One of the things that I recommend if you want to make several beers from
the same yeast is to begin with the lightest and less hoppy beer and
progress to the darkest and hoppest. Also go from the lower OG beers to the
higher OG beers. I simply rack off the primary of one beer while I'm
brewing the second and then just knockout of the kettle through my
counterflow chiller to the same fermenter with the yeast bed. Fermentation
is very quick and effective. So do a mild and use the yeast for a dry stout
then use the yeast for an Imperial Stout. Or make a Helles and then use the
yeast to make a Bock then a Doppelbock.
Good luck,
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:35:16 +1100
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pubs in Dublin
Hi folks...
I believe somebody was looking for somewhere to drink in Dublin.
Try the Porterhouse Pub/Brewery in Parliament Street, the beer's a good
change from the norm...
Several great brews on tap. They make a Stout/Porter that makes Guiness pale
in comparison.
Be warned though, this place is that busy it's a veritable madhouse...
Friday nights are standing, sardine style room only.
Highly recommended though. Check out their website.
<http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/eng/porter.htm>
Cheers!
Warren White - Melbourne, Australia
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:57:06 -0600
From: "Marc Hawley" <Marc_Hawley@email.msn.com>
Subject: electric kettle
I use 6000 watts in my HLT. This will raise 10 us gallons of water 5 degrees
F per minute.
I use 5000 watts in my boiler. This will make a very violent boil in 12 or
13 gallons. I usually turn off one element and boil with 2500 watts. This
will make a moderate rolling boil. 2500 watts will boil off just under one
us gallon per hour.
I am using regular hot water heater elements, not the low watt density
types. They don't actually scortch, but in wort they build up scale. I found
out the hard way that if you just "relax don't worry" and let this scale
build up batch after batch, it will cause too much heat to build up inside
the element and the element will fail in spectacular fashion. I actally
melted one of these babies. I had droplets of molten metal on the bottom of
my boiler. Now I use a copper scrubbie on the boiler elements after each
boil.
The heat of vaporization is the energy used to boil the wort. Below the
boiling point, the added heat causes the temperature to rise. At the boiling
point, the added heat coverts the liquid to gas while the temperature
remains the same. In theory. In distilled water.
In practice, however, I'm sure all brewers have observed complex phenomena
at the boiling point of wort. There does seem to be a sort of a pause before
the chaotic, bumpy boil, the sticky foam-over boil, the "no dear, it's not a
good time for me to eat lunch" boil, and finally the clear, rolling,
relaxing, steady boil.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:59:33 -0000
From: "Bret Mayden" <brmayden@hotmail.com>
Subject: Thermometer Calibration
Pete Calinski posted: "Using the freezing and boiling temperatures to
calibrate can introduce a problem because of non-linearity over the range.
I am not too interested in being accurate at the two end points. I am most
concerned at mash temperatures. I use a very accurate "standard"
thermometer to calibrate my thermometers in the 150F to 170F range. That is
where the accuracy is needed. I then check the thermometer's error at
around 70F so my final chillout is close."
Good point. Ice & boiling water baths (corrrected for barometric pressure)
are a standard calibration technique for thermometers in the instrumentation
field. Calibration of, and comparison to, a lab-grade mecury instrument
helps determine linearity. A quality (i.e., lab-grade) instrument will show
very little or zero non-linearity (or hysterisis) over its range. And I
certainly agree that accuracy is critical @ mash temps. How did you check
accuracy in the middle of the range? What type of instrument is your
standard thermometer? Do you adjust your mash procedures for errors from
your thermometer? If so, how do you do this?
Bret Mayden
Oklahoma City
brmayden@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 25 Feb 2001 16:12:41 -0800
From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart@spiritone.com>
Subject: RIMS problem
Hello,
I tried e-mailing this to Richard Sieben, because he has the same system I
do. The e-mail was returned as undeliverable. Is Richard on here?
Anyway, I'll copy and paste what I wrote to him, in the hopes that one of
you fine folks can help me figure this problem out.
Up until now, the only real
problem I've had with the system is that it pulls too much husk material
through no matter what I do. Nothing stops this from happening. I've tried
slowing runoff, longer recirculation etc, but to no avail. I solved this
problem by creating what I call the Hop Front. The recirculation on this
system gets the wort completely clear, with no turbidity. The husks
sneaking through don't make it turbid, but I don't want them in my beer. I
took a one quart jar and popped small holes in the lid. There's a bigger
hole in the center, for the runoff tube to go into. I put one ounce of low
alpha hops in the jar. The runoff tube goes to the bottom of the jar to
avoid splashing, and this also makes the runoff go under the hops. The hops
are then pushed up to the top and act as a filter to stop the husks from
getting in the beer.
I've had great results with this.
Now, I'm running into a problem that I've never experienced before. My
beers are turning out way too husky. It's harsh and kinda astringent and
has the taste of spent grain husks. Foul! The bummer is that I can't
figure out what's causing the problem. I have only two theories left, which
I'll share with you at the end of this letter. My techniques have not
changed at all, yet the beer has. Using the Hop Front and this RIMS system,
I took 17 medals last year in competition. So, I've had other people
evaluating my beers and haven't seen this mentioned nor have I encountered
it before.
Anyway, I looked to the normal reasons that huskiness would occur. I am
definitely not oversparging (and in fact, today, my first runnings had the
husky flavor before I had even sparged at all). My sparge water's pH is
adjusted to 5.7 or so and the temp is never over 170. The grains are
crushed very coarsely, not shredded.
I cleaned my system with beer line cleaner last week just in case there was
residue in the heating element. Rinsed thoroughly with 30 gallons of water.
The only two theories I have left are problematic. They are: that the time
the grain spends in the mash is too long and the husk character is getting
extracted because of this. Or, that I'm recirculating for too long and the
same thing is happening. These theories trouble me because, as I said, I
haven't changed techniques at all. I've brewed about 30 batches since I got
the system, all using the same technique, and only the last 6 have been
ruined (mind you, 6 is enough to drive me to despair!).
Here's what I do:
Say I have 15 pounds of grain. I'll add 22 quarts of water at cold temp,
around 55 or 60, to the mash tun. I then add the grain and stir it in. I
give the paddle a couple of turns by hand. Then I start the system up and
set the first rest for around 100. I know this may not be strictly
necessary, but it's on the way, so what the hell. I have a 30 minute acid
rest. Then, if it's just a straight ale, I'll set the next temp at 151 or
so, for 60 minutes. Then a mash out rest at 167 for 10 minutes. Then I
recirculate. It takes a while to clear up, so it's usually about 40 minutes
of recirc. All these times have the ramping time added to them for total
time in mashtun. In the past, I've had some beers that spent 60 minutes at
100. They had an even longer time in the tun, but didn't have any husky
character.
Over the last few weeks, I've paid special attention to my technique but
have been unable to determine what the cause of the problem is. This week,
I could definitely taste the husk taste in the runoff, so I know for sure
that that flavor is coming from something done pre-runoff. The only thing
left to try that I can think of is this: Heat up my water a bit before
adding it to the mash tun so that my initial mash temp is already at the 100
degrees, or even higher. And try to recirculate less. That one'll be hard,
though. The wort never runs clear before 20-30 minutes.
I've been
brewing for about three and a half years and am at batch 80. In all that
time and all those batches, I've never seen this before. Sorry the e-mail
is so
verbose, I just wanted to try to get a complete picture presented.
Any and all help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
-Matt
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3566, 02/26/01
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