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HOMEBREW Digest #3575
HOMEBREW Digest #3575 Thu 08 March 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
CCV again ("Richard Sieben")
Malting humans (Tom Smit)
The pilsner Phil couldn't make (craftbrewer)
Mag-drive pumps in Australia (Rob B)
re: Temperature Uniformity in Cylindroconicals ("Stephen Alexander")
Beeston's Pipken pale malt (brewer)
Brewing with Fruit/Brew Report/My .02 ("Greenly, Jeff")
re: cylindroconical versus corny ("Stephen Alexander")
Dusseldorf and their beers (Mark van Bommel)
My new Brew Hero! ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
RE: igloo vs. gott tuns (Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger)
CC fermentors and reality ("Murray, Eric")
Phoenix/Tuscon Beer spots? ("Spinelli, Mike")
igloo vs. gott tuns (Ken & Bennett Johnson)
re: fermenters - continued ... ("Vernon, Mark")
in defense of Corny fermenting ("Larry Maxwell")
wyeast 1728 ("Czerpak, Pete")
RE: Re: Food Grade CO2 (Bob Sheck)
steeping grain ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
Re: Coffee and reusing yeast (Steve)
Adding color (Greg Remec)
Self Service Grain, In Store Mills and Coolers (Dan Listermann)
Re: igloo vs. gott tuns (Steve)
Help with sources/questions Conical II (Mike)
Jamil's CC test ("Daniel C Stedman")
CC Fermenters (DJ)
Re; Igloo vs. gott tuns ("Bill Frazier")
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:34:00 -0600
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1@email.msn.com>
Subject: CCV again
I don't know if George Fix is going to post the e-mail he sent me, but he
convinced me that I was wrong about the BB&MB unit due to it's height to
width ratio. Apparently this unit DOES maintain the temperature in the
yeast withing 1 degree of the rest of the fermentor. And, I understand that
the butterfly valve is available. I will probably be buying one someday all
my negatives are hearby erased! well sort of, I agree, it is still pretty
spendy, but spendy doesn't stop me if it means good beer. If BB&MB finds a
more cost effective solution, I will be buying sooner but I think the
purchase is somehow inevitable for me.
I felt it necessary to make my retraction in the same forum as my statement,
which it turns out is 'generally' correct, but not in the case of this unit.
Good work BB&MB! color me impressed.
Rich Sieben (appropriately humbled)
Island Lake, IL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:54:23 +0000
From: Tom Smit <lunica@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Malting humans
Mauricio Wagner wrote
"My idea is to malt my self"
Might be better to try it out on SWMBO or a friend first! You could only
malt yourself once, I would think
Yours in humor
Tom Smit
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:43:06 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: The pilsner Phil couldn't make
G'Day All
/
Now you have to pity poor Phil. gets in Dr Pivo from overseas,
scrouges the best ingredients, invites all insubdry (but not me)
to the big day. And do we get a classic beer, true to style. Not
a chance. NO DIACETYL is the cry.
/
Well it takes a true brewer from OZ to do it right, so I do my
famous Bastardised Bohemian and much to Phils envy and
disgust, yes i crack it just right. All the right flavours and that
hint of diacetyl. a delightful drink that will be soon consumed.
Smoother than baby oil on a ........... whoops minds adrift again.
/
Phil is sooo impressed he has invited me down to Burradoo for
a proper brew session. Yes its true he does need someone to
hold his hand. The invite was actually more of a plea really.
I NEED to brew a decent drop Graham, help me. Now you
know he's desperate when he says 'Graham these planes fly
themselves, you can come back with me next time I'm up,
sit in the pilots seat if you like."
/
Now i was willing to take up the offer til in true Mungo-man
style he says 'oh bring your gear down, i have none. You'll
have to pay for that." Then he say "and sorry mate pool tables
torn, no billards as well, just me'. No way you'll get me up front
in a flying coffin, even if it has an airbag for the captain, but if
the only entertainments is Mr I need someone to help me brew-
well even SWMBO looks good (cr+p need another eight beers
to get her looking good.)
/
Now I have seen and met the man. No way will I be left on my
own with him on a all nighter.
/
Shout
Graham Sanders
/
oh
My mate at Customs told me Dr Pivo when he left this country
had a funny smile on his face. Last time he saw that was on a
couple of newly weds after the honey-moon. Can't help putting
Phil and Dr P in the picture, tent and all.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:07:35 +1100
From: Rob B <rbyrnes@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Mag-drive pumps in Australia
Hi all,
Has anyone in Australia bought a magnetic-drive pump in the last year or
so? If so, where from and an approximate cost.
I ask this because there appears to be a complete dearth of information
online regarding home brewing in Australia, save for a couple of shops that
have a web presence. the information that is online appears to be geared
towards kit or extract brewing for the most part.
Cheers,
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:26:46 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Temperature Uniformity in Cylindroconicals
AJ writes ...
>Beer in contact with the walls is thus cooled and sinks
>forcing a welling up of warmer beer through the core.
We should note that beer achieves it's maximum density around 3C(37F), so
below that temp (common when lagering) colder beer rises rather than falls
and the circulation pattern for lager chilling would invert. Lets consider
the warmer fermenting temperatures tho'.
M&BS, discussing CC circulation pp 661-662, generally agrees stating,
"There is also considerable debate about circulatory current in these
vessels. The driving forces are the carbon dioxide evolution during
fermentation and convection currents. Carbon dioxide is released during
fermentation at the deepest part of the vessel. It is the relatively long
distance to the surface which causes the particularly strong upward current
of beer along the central axis of the vessel. The return of the beer is
mainly near the walls of the fermenter. Circulatory patterns have been
studied in detail and appears to vary somewhat with the rate of
fermentation, the position of the coolers and the speed of cooling".
What is not obvious to me is that there is any "relatively long distance to
the surface" in a 1/2bbl CC fermenter, nor any CO2 differentiated "deepest
part of the vessel" in these tiny CC fermenters. Also the necessarily
smaller temp differences long the relatively tiny dimensions of a 1/2bbl CC
fermenter will create correspondingly smaller forces to drive the
circulation pattern. I don't think that circulation of the wort/beer in a
tiny CC fermenter is likely to play any role in fermentation performance
since unlike a 1000bbl unit there is not enough hydrostatic pressure
difference from top to bottom to increase CO2 solubility nor slow yeast
growth.
>Temperatures within a cylindorconical should be reasonably uniform as a
>mixing of the beer is one of the features of the design.
True, but temp differences in other shaped fermenters with comparable
coolers should also create temp gradients that (equally weakly) drive
convection so create similarly uniform temperatures. There is still the
open question - do these temp gradients actually cause a convection on this
tiny scale and is it decidedly an improvement over similar convection forces
in other shaped vessels. Also do these convections have any impact on
fermentation performance, as they certainly would in a 4 meter deep
fermenter ? My hunch is that a conventional 'top freezer' fridge would do
an admirable job of chilling from the top and so setting up a desirable
fermenter temp gradient for convection.
>Yes, there will be a gradient - it wouldn't
>work if there weren't but it should amount to no more than a couple of
>degrees F if that.
I agree - but how large a temp gradient will occur in a non-conical
fermenter with a similar chiller, and what sort of temperature differential
is needed to negatively impact a beer ?
Kunze shows a 6C temp differential (10C/4C) in his diagrams of CC
circulation due to thermal gradients.
A quick and crude calculation is that if all of the energy in a 5gal 12P
fermentation was used to this end one could only maintain a 5.5C temp
differential from the top to the bottom of a carboy for 50 hours. This
assumes all of the fermentation energy was expended at one surface and there
was absolutely no convection. In real life the temp differences due to
fermentation heat in a small HB fermenters can be ignored even if there is
no convection at all. If there is a significant temp differential within
our small HB fermenters it is not due to heat from fermentation but from
surface cooling or heating coupled with a lack of convection.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 04:46:46 -0500 (EST)
From: brewer@cotse.com
Subject: Beeston's Pipken pale malt
I am having trouble finding a source for Beeston's Pipken. Can anyone out
there recommend a supplier. You are more than welcome to recommend yourself
if you have the malt! ;^)
Thanks,
Jake
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:44:23 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Brewing with Fruit/Brew Report/My .02
Comrades,
With this Nor'easter blowing through the mountains and hollows of my West
Virginia home, my thoughts turn to spring, specifically the spring brewing
season. As a novice brewer, I am always trying to stretch the boundaries of
my brewing skill and so I would like to try brewing a beer with fruit. I
would like to know what tips, hints and ideas the Collective has for me.
Specifically, what fruits are more desirable? Also, what kind of processing
will I need to do to the fruit? Lastly, is it better to include fruit in an
ale or a lager? Ultimately, I would like something flavorful and refreshing
for quaffing out on the porch as the weather finally starts to warm up a
bit.
Some time ago, I decided to brew a stout, for the winter months. Several of
you provided a lot of good advice and I tried some new techniques that were
challenging and really useful. Well, I am happy to report that the stout,
called No. 3 (my 3rd "house brew"), was quite successful! It was almost
unanimous that I drop the use of black patent, and I am glad I did, because
No. 3 tastes very similar to my targeted beer, Watney's Cream Stout. It has
a woody roasted taste and silky mouthfeel thanks to the judicious use of
roast barley and plenty of malto-dextrin. Final gravity was a wee bit higher
than expected, but that's fine. All in all, a very good beer, and I thank
you all!
I don't know much about conical fermenters, except to see them at the local
brewpub here. But it seems to me that there isn't a gadget made that can
help you make better than the best beer you're able to make, regardless of
how much the thing costs. As I've been putting my brewery together, I've
bought some things that the conditions in my home demanded, like a temp.
controlled fridge so I could brew during the summer. There have also been a
lot of things that I didn't need, or that I was able to scrounge around for,
like bottle washers, carboy carriers, King Cookers, 10 G. brewpots and the
like. What I have now allows me to make consistantly good beer, that my
friends and I enjoy. I figure that if I am making great beer with $200 sunk
into carboys, kegs, and assorted other geegaws, and you're making equally
great beer with $2000 conical fermenters, plus the hundreds of dollars more
in equipment to support such a gadget, well, which one of us is ahead of the
game? Like I said, just my .02 worth..
Brewing happily in the hills,
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:40:08 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: cylindroconical versus corny
Steven M. Claussen writes ...
>Stephen remains undaunted by his lack of experience using a
>CC, and this shows in his somewhat misinformed critque.
Words have meanings - I wrote no critique, but stated a few facts. CCs are
expensive and there is (as yet) no strong evidence that they make better
beer. A critique is a critical review of an item or work, and I haven't
attempted that.
As for experience - no one needs to experience all possible choices in order
to make rational decisions among them. Why do you choose not to eat spoiled
foods without experiencing this choice ? Because you understand, by theory
and reports of others the implications of this choice. Same w/ CCs.
I hoped to foment a discussion on CC fermenters to extract experience from
guys like you who have actually used them. So far I have heard that they
cost $400/$600 and up to $1200, that they conveniently allow withdrawal of
trub and yeast, and aren't too bad to clean. That with an $800 chiller
added they produce uniform fermentation temps and that their ferments
compare favorably to seriously defective ones in cornies.
>If you are ever
>in Portland, Stephen, I invite you to stop by and brew with me so you
>can experience the joys of a CC first hand. I do not claim that the CC
>is the be all and end all, simply that it is the best tool (by an order
>of magnitude) that I have found to do the job.
I would enjoy that, tho' I don't get to Portland often. I can understand
and with qualification agree with your comment about it being the "best
tool" for fermentation. My point remains that sometimes (even often) the
best tool is not required to perform a job and it's cost cannot be
justified. If I framed houses or layed floors for a living I'd certainly
use a pneumatic nailer as the "best tool" for the job. Since I perhaps on
average sink a dozen nails into wood in a given year I instead use a hammer
as a practical cost-effective alternative. Althought the pneumatic nailer
would be preferable for speed and convenience, the hammer does not do an
inferior job of setting nails when properly used. I feel much the same
about $1000 (or even $500) expenditures on HB fermenters.
>(1) A
>corny is a tall narrow vessel, while the CC is relatively wider and
>shallower [..] beer clears much more quickly in the CC than in a
>corny.
Your argument seems to be that a lower aspect ratio
improves clearing and that is almost certainly true. OTOH I can
easily chill/drop a corny fermenter by placing it in a fridge. Neither
design works as quickly as an $80 filter tho'.
>(2) If you are doing a ten gallon batch in two five gallon
>cornies, you have to worry about evenly splitting the wort [...]
>The 12.2
IMO you really need about 25% headspace in a primary fermenter so your
12.2gal unit is about right for 10g batches and a 10g corny would
accommodate 8gal batches. Having the *proper* sized fermenter for a given
batch is always pleasant. Unless 10 gal batches were the only size of
interest I think I'd prefer a selection of necessarily less expensive
fermenters. Splitting the yeast between containers is a very minor
inconvenience - agreed.
>(3) A five gallon brew in a five gallon corny gives excessive
>blow off.
As does a 12.5 gal batch in a 12.2gal CC. Come on there is no one
preferred brewing batch size except ones that match your consumption. I
don't need 10gal batches of strong ales or seasonal ales, but I like to brew
15gal batches of pils. No one fermenter size is ideal.
>(4) The
>side racking port on a CC gives much more control over avoiding
>transferring excess yeast and spoooge when racking than I was able to
>obtain with a corny.
I'll give you that one. I've used cornies on several occasions as
fermenters and the inability to see what is happening in the opaque
container is annoying.
>(5) the CC allows you to do either open or closed
>fermentation, or a hybrid of the two.
And the corny doesn't ? I don't see that - just remove the top pressure
release or a fitting or even the entire top if you need to open ferment.
>(6) My completely anecdotal
>non-variable controlled experience is that fermentation finishes quicker
>in the CC and finishing gravity is consistently lower than a similar
>brew fermented in a corny (generally about 2 points SG). According to
>my offline discussion with George Fix (nice guy, by the way), there is
>apparently some scientific data supporting this as well.
A little quicker I can believe, but lower FG is doubtful IMO. George
implies that he's getting results like that - but I'd really need to be
convinced by a double blind trial at this point.
DeCleck and several other studies (one from Brauwelt 1992 that I wish I
could get my hands on) studied fermentation performance in various shaped
fermenters. CCs developed as a result of the early work. Only in very
recent years have CCs dropped to the current very wide aspect ratios (they
used to be as tall in scale as cornies). Anyway the forces on the yeast,
the impact of depth on CO2 solubility, the localization of CO2 evolution,
the potential for fermentation heating wort and for temperature
differentials are orders of magnitude greater for the commercial fermenters
than our HB size units. You can't extend these commercial studies of
geometry to small scale without understanding the impact of all the changes
and no one does.
Commercial fermenter geometry undoubtedly does shave some *time* off the
fermentation. I believe that this is a fair reading of several studies. I
haven't seen any that claim differing *final* gravity occurs since that
implies a yeast performance problem. In fact DeClerc adamantly states that
the final gravity is only determined by the wort. It doesn't matter much to
me - my beer remains in the fermenter till the weekend and shaving a day or
two off the schedule is almost meaningless to me.
I have doubts that in our relatively tiny fermenters with their
correspondingly tiny pressures and temp diffs that any significance can be
ascribed to fermenter geometry.
I can believe that temp control, trub removal and yeast removal have impacts
on the final beer, and the removals can certainly be performed more easily
in many CC designs, but
that doesn't mean geometry is the issue, nor that the same advantages can't
be had with other designs.
==
JamilZ adds some interesting comments. I'm most impressed with Jamil's
personal experiment, but both this and Fix's reports would seem to require
better controls to prove their hypothesis.
>It seems, from reading Fix and others, that a corny keg would be a really
>bad choice for a fermenter, because it is so tall and thin.
It would seem so if you believe that experiments of 100+hl fermenters
automatically apply to 0.1hl fermenters without any knowledge of the
underlying mechanisms, nor accounting for the known differences. Fix's tall
vs squat fermenter experiment is intriguing, but the details and description
of controls is entirely lacking.
>However, once you feel you are making
>great beer, the investment in the CC fermenters will make a noticeable
>difference that, IMHO, makes a great beer truely outstanding. These
>stainless steel CC fermenters are absolutely fantastic.
Cognitive dissonance may explain this statement as much as fact.
More evidence is needed.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:51:59 +0100
From: Mark van Bommel <markbom@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Dusseldorf and their beers
Mauricio Wagner asked about weissbier in Dusseldorf.
Dusseldorf is not a good place to drink weissbier. You're too far to the
north of Germany to get the good one's. But it is the capital of Alt,
the bitter, light brown ale fermented at low temperatures.
I absolutely love those beers. There are at least four brew pubs, all in
the centre of the city. Zum Schlussel, Im Fuchsen, Schumacher and Schlosser.
My personal favorite is Schumacher, which is close to the Central railway
station (Hauptbahnhof), quite big but not to commercial. Im Fuchsen en Zum
Schlussel are very nice as well. Schlosser is a bit to commercial for my
taste.
Zum Schlussel has a weissen, but not a very good one, very watery.
More info:
http://www.tiac.net/users/tjd/bier/germany.html
http://www.biercity.de/
I will you send you some more details by private e-mail.
Have fun,
Mark van Bommel
markbom@xs4all.nl
http://www.xs4all.nl/~markbom
P.S. The digest doesn't accept non-ascii characters. So you should read
Schluessel,
Fuechsen, Schloesser and Duesseldorf.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:30:06 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal@pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: My new Brew Hero!
Fred wrote:
"I live on an island in alaska so I can't just go to the local brew
shop. Any help would be great."
Wow. I thought I was on the edge of the planet here in the Gulf of
St.Lawrence trying to find Wyeast XLs (I drive to Halifax, two provinces
and 3 hours away, to Brewing Centre - www.betterbrew.com). I have just
elected Fred as my "Resourceful in the Circumstances Home Brewer Number
One!" What is your set up, Fred? How do you get supplies? Any
other "edge hangers" out there?
Alan McLeod in PEI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:59:58 -0500
From: Rob Hanson and Kate Keplinger <katerob@erols.com>
Subject: RE: igloo vs. gott tuns
Ed Jones writes:
>I'm slowly gathering the bits to go all-grain and I've decided on using
>10 gallon round water coolers. Our local GFS store sells the 10 gallon
>igloo variety for $39. Are these physically similar to the gott 10
>gallon ones and if so, can they take the heat of mashing/sparging?
>Also, what are the rough limits in terms of pounds of grain that can
>be mashed in one of these? Thanks for the help!
While I'm not an all-grain brewer yet, I found this article from
Brewing Techniques that may help to answer some of your questions:
www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.4/palmer.html
Good luck!
- --Rob Hanson
The Closet Brewery
Washington, DC
"I like the taste of beer,
its live white lather,
its bright-brass depths..."
--Dylan Thomas
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:26:39 -0500
From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray@sud-chemieinc.com>
Subject: CC fermentors and reality
It seems odd to me that Mr. Alexander finds it necessary to try and convince
everyone how and what others should brew with, so much so that he goes to
quite lengthy means to prove others wrong. Steven does provide good
scientific data from time to time that is useful, but tends to go off on
rants occasionally when no one asked for his opinion.
If someone wants to ferment their beer in their kitchen sink, and enjoys
doing so, who are we to try and convince them otherwise.
Some have posted that they enjoy what they consider to be advantages of
using various fermentation vessels. They are sharing what they enjoy doing
and that they like using the various methods and results from those methods.
If you enjoy your brewing setup and are pleased with the results, there is
nothing to prove otherwise.
Steven, continue to ferment in carboys since that is the way you enjoy
brewing. Don't buy a CC fermentor.
Those using CC fermentors, continue to brew in your CC fermentor since that
is what you enjoy.
Brewing equipment is an individuals option and is a personal preference
based on what the particular brewer likes to use and enjoys. As long as the
brewer is satisfied with the means and the product. That is all that
matters. I don't think that anyone is trying to force Mr. Alexander to go
out and buy a CC (although he may be trying to get the CC users to abandon
theirs and go back to carboys in a secret plot to salvage the equipment for
himself !!)
Get over it and argue about something else. The thread is growing tiresome.
I think it has even put Phil Yates to sleep and is why we have not heard
from him today!
Eric Murray
Louisville, KY
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:52:25 -0500
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983@dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: Phoenix/Tuscon Beer spots?
HBDer,s
Going to Phoenix/Tuscon on 3/16 for the weekend.
Any "must see" places?
Thanks
Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill NJ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:13:31 -0800
From: Ken & Bennett Johnson <fearless1@abac.com>
Subject: igloo vs. gott tuns
Hey All,
From: Ed Jones <ejones@sdl.psych.wright.edu>
>>I'm slowly gathering the bits to go all-grain and I've decided on using
10 gallon round water coolers. Our local GFS store sells the 10 gallon
igloo variety for $39. Are these physically similar to the gott 10
gallon ones and if so, can they take the heat of mashing/sparging?<<
I have used a similar 10 gallon coolier for a mash tun for 4 years. Yes,
they can take the heat just fine. Mine is starting to show the signs of 75
batches of mash. It will eventually begin to warp as mine has. But it has
been a fantastic tool for the price! I expect this tun to make it to 100
batches before she retires.
>>Also, what are the rough limits in terms of pounds of grain that can
be mashed in one of these? Thanks for the help!<<
I can get 22lbs in mine if I really push it. Obviously you can manipulate
this some by changing the water/grist ratio. The sensible thing to do would
be to not try to pass 20 lbs (I keep telling myself this also). But, let's
be honest and admit that it will happen.
Ken "MAD about Barleywine" Johnson
Work like you don't need the money
Dance like nobody's watching
Love like you've never been hurt
- ----John E. Gaddy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:10:44 -0600
From: "Vernon, Mark" <VERNONMARK@phibred.com>
Subject: re: fermenters - continued ...
Sounds like Steve has a bug up his A#$ about conical fermenters....maybe he
was frightened by one during a brewery tour as a small child.....
Just because you wouldn't spend the money on one does not mean you have to
bash them as being overpriced...give it a rest....
Mark Vernon, MCSE, MCT
Sr. Network Engineer - LanTech
"The beautiful thing about learning is nobody can take it away from you."
- B.B. King
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:16:20 -0500
From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax@bellsouth.net>
Subject: in defense of Corny fermenting
I have been tinkering with fermenting in 10 gallon Corny kegs for a
while and don't see any great disadvantages, especially when
compared to the price of cylindroconicals. I have no hard data, as I'm
not the type to do that sort of rigorous experimentation, but I perceive
at least as fast attenuation as fermenting in a carboy. With a 10G size,
I would think a 5-7G batch would not suffer from the long-tall geometry
disadvantage that some attribute to the smaller 5G Corny kegs. Two
10G units allow one to do either two 5G batches, one 10G batch, or
even a 15G batch at a time. Yes, splitting the larger batches evenly
between the two requires attention--I monitor the change in depth in the
kettle as the wort is pumped out. They ARE cleanable without reaching
inside if one uses a long-handled "turk's head" brush (readily available
from a restaurant supply or industrial supply company) which is relatively
inexpensive and makes cleaning a snap. Someone here recently mentioned
a toilet bowl brush if I recall correctly, and I suppose that's an even
cheaper alternative.
I have also tinkered with fermenting in Corny kegs placed in unusual
orientations, such as a 5G on its side with the long dip tube removed and,
more recently, two 10Gs suspended upside down from a rack, with the
short dip tube used for liquid and the long dip tube used for CO2 (or air)
displacement! I am trying this latest variation for a number of reasons,
including transferability using gravity and trying to improve the cleaning
process by using a sort of spray head as was discussed not long ago here
in relation to cleaning carboys. Fun stuff!
Larry Maxwell
Atlanta GA (where the ghost of Prohibition lingers on)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:20:17 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak@siigroup.com>
Subject: wyeast 1728
I have used Wyeast 1728 only once and it was in a strong scotch ale.
OG was in the neighborhood of 1.100ish and FG was about 1.030ish. In no way
do I find this beer too sweet. malty yes, sweet no! When compared to
similar commercial scotch ales, it was right on the money in terms of taste.
Grain bill was about 50% munich, 2%roasted barley, 2% peat smoked, and the
remainder as 2 row pale. I also boiled down the first gallon to about 1.5
qts as well which were added at the last 10 minutes of boil. boil was
longer than normal - about 120 minutes. color is nice - deep deep ruby red.
not as red as guiness though.
My yeast was scaled up about 5x including multiple times at 0.5 gallon size
in order to increase my cell count to pitch directly to my 5 gallon batch.
visible ferment (surface foam) started between 8th and 18th hour. this is
normal for my batches that were not previous used slurrys of full batches.
slurry batches tend to start by 6 hours after pitching except if they had
been stored for a long time in the fridge.
FWIW, the brew has been judged a few times and no one has deemed it too
sweet. In fact, it pulled in two first places in Boston and Brooklyn this
past february.
Good luck,
Pete czerpak
albany, NY
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:47:29 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck@skantech.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Food Grade CO2
It's pretty important that pure CO2 be used to produce
quality welds so I am sure it must be pretty pure.
I never had any quality problems with my refills.
Bob Sheck / Greenville, NC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:23:17 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders@paddockwood.com>
Subject: steeping grain
Andrew asks about steeping grains.
We recommend that you remove the grain prior to boiling. In fact, for
specialty malts that do not require a mash, a 30 minute steep at 140F will
avoid all husky astringency as well as extracting desired flavour and
colour. You may wish to rinse the grains a little afterwards if using a
grain bag.
cheers,
Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevisiae sugant."
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders@paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:02:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <gravelse@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Coffee and reusing yeast
Okay, I'll give this one a shot.
First, What's your name? We don't need to know your last name if you
don't want to post it, but 'D H' or 'uqob' is rather impersonal and I like
to direct my response to a person.
Anyway, you said:
"1. Someone recommended to me reusing yeast from a
batch just brewed. Here's how the process would work:
On the 3rd day when I am swapping wort(1) into the
secondary fermenter, I also have a new batch of
wort(2) to transfer onto the yeast that settled out in
the first 72 hours of wort(1)"
Sounds good and works great!
"I understand from the person who suggested it that
activity starts much quicker than pitching."
Yeah, a couple of hours.
"My worry, of course is that off flavors will be
transfered from the yeast that isn't dormant but dead
from the alcohol content of wort(1)"
Possible, but not probable. You'll be racking this batch off the yeast
into a secondary in a few days anyway. The yeast don't start causing off
flavors unless they've been sitting for a long time.
"Any comments from more experienced brewers or
individuals who have tried this method?"
I do this frequently, be prepared for a quick and vigorous fermentation.
If it's a big beer that you are racking, make sure you have a blow off
hose set up or you'll be sorry.
"2. Coffee and beer:
I would like to use coffee in a brew:
a) should I steep the grounds in a hop bag or
just toss them in the mash?
b) should I not use grounds but beans instead?
c)Should I not do this at all because of some
problem with caffeine and yeasts?"
I would suggest using coffee flavoring or strong brewed coffee, not the
grounds. Coffee has oil in it and can affect the head on your beer so
you'll want to make sure you get rid of that oily film on the coffee. To
eash his own, other brewers may have different methods.
"3. I know oxidation of hot wort is bad, very, very
bad. But is there any significant danger to cooled
wort (65F) when transferring to the primary fermenter?
I ask because I used a wort chiller (copper coils) to
chill my wort straight from the stove. This worked
great, but I still needed to pour it through a
strainer to get out the hops. Being poured into a 6
gallon bucket that's a fair amount of splashing.
Did I ruin my brew?"
At certain times oxydizing the wort is very desirable. This is that time.
The yeast need the oxygen in order to do their job. The time to add
oxygen is after you cool the wort to 80F or below and you want as much as
you can get into solution. You can add it during the transfer by using an
aerating wand, or pouring from bucket to bucket, or using an oxygenating
stone. There are a number of ways and they each have their pros and cons.
Hope this helps.
SteveG
Newport, RI
"Homebrew, it's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:02:42 -0600
From: Greg Remec <gremec@gsbpop.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Adding color
Hello all,
Is there something simple I can do to darken my fermented beer (still in
secondary)? Yes, I know color is not very important, but if there is an
easy remedy I'd rather have the color end up looking as intended. Thanks
to my supplier confusing and mislabling two crystal malts he milled for me,
my brown ale looks more like a pale. I'm not about to go to the trouble of
blending two beers, but if I can find something like a caramel coloring
that can darken the finished beer without impacting the flavor or head, I'd
be willing to try it. I thought about adding food coloring to my priming
solution, but I don't know if that would introduce any negative
impacts. Any other thoughts?
Cheers!
Greg
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:16:34 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707@compuserve.com>
Subject: Self Service Grain, In Store Mills and Coolers
Wil Kolb (happydog@nations.net) asks about self service grain and store
mills. We store all our malt in 7 gal buckets and almost insist that our
customers serve themselves. This saves us a lot of time and effort and
provides our customers with a bit of entertainment. We have very few
problems and I would never consider insisting our people do it.
Homebrewers are frightfully honest people.
We have two mills in the store that our customers use. The primary one is
a Philmill II that is mounted in a wooden box and is fed with a 20 lb
hopper made from a 5 gal plastic carboy. Inside the box the grist is
funneled into a 1.5" pipe where is falls through to the recieving
container. This produces relitively little dust and could easily be
improved to release even less dust. I don't feel a deep need to do this
because it is located at the far end of the store.
The other mill is a 1/2" drill driven Philmill I. We ask that our
customers use this mill if they are crushing dark malts and have no light
malts to chase them with. We don't want a pile of dark dust shooting out
of the big mill into somebody's pils grist. This mill uses a 3 liter pop
bottle( - 3 pound capacity) hopper and a 2 liter pop bottle as a recieving
funnel so it also produces little dust.
Ed Jones ( ejones@sdl.psych.wright.edu) asks about Igloo vs Gott coolers.
For all practical purposes they are interchangeable. The take the heat
very well although the inside may buckel eventually. This seems harmless.
I have one that I have been using for 11 years that finally gave out. The
area around the hole cracked. I now use it for keeping kegs cool at
picnics. A 5 gallon cooler can hold 12 pounds for mashing and 15 for
lautering ( the mash compacts during lautering ) 10 gallons will hole twice
that amount.
$39.00 is an excellent price for a 10 gallon!
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com!
Contribute to the anti telemarketing forum. It is my new hobby!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:09:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <gravelse@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: igloo vs. gott tuns
Hi Ed,
You said:
"I'm slowly gathering the bits to go all-grain and I've decided on using
10 gallon round water coolers. Our local GFS store sells the 10 gallon
igloo variety for $39. Are these physically similar to the gott 10
gallon ones and if so, can they take the heat of mashing/sparging?"
I use the Rubbermaid (big, orange) cooler and a friend of mine uses the 5
gallon version of the Igloo cooler. I believe they are both similar in
make. They are designed for cold and hot drinks and should hold up to any
mashing that you do.
"Also, what are the rough limits in terms of pounds of grain that can
be mashed in one of these? Thanks for the help!"
I've brewed an Imperial Stout with 20 lbs. of grain and was about 3/4 of
the way to the top. You could probably squeeze two or three more lbsout
of it.
If you have any questions on how I set it up to mash in, send me an email
me and I'll send you a description of my setup.
SteveG (gravelse@yahoo.com)
Newport, RI
"Homebrew, it's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:28:42 -0500
From: Mike <mroesch@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Help with sources/questions Conical II
I have been reading (With avid interest) the Conical Fermenter
discussions. Some things come to mind that I thought I'd
ask the group. I'm using the "Affordable Conical II", configured
with a ball valve (PVC) at the bottom port and a racking valve (like
the ones brew shops sell for use in the PVC buckets).
First some observations:
1. They look neat and with 5.5 to 6 gallons of wort I can lift
them up to table/counter height without rupturing myself.
2. When moving from floor to counter/table I have more of a
"sense of security" than i did with my glass carboy fermenters.
I'm not a klutz, but it is nice to know that all I can get from
a dropped fermenter is lost beer, a mess and some bruises. I'd hate
to think about the cuts I could receive from a shattering carboy.
Note that currently this is important to me as I have to brew in
the kitchen and then after filling the fermenter I lug it to the
basement. This process is fraught with danger with a carboy IMHO!
3. The rubber top is kind of cheesy, but it seems to seal well as
I noted in my last post and I have a good indication of CO2
pressure in the fermenter, it "pooches up" a little. Also when
cleaning I was able to verify a seal by rinsing with hot H2O,
putting the top on, stoppering the air lock hole and observing
the rubber top, It "pooched in" indicating a seal as the unit
cooled down (I also opened the racking port and noted that
blown tire "sound" as air rushed in).
4. It is really nice to be able to siphon off trub/yeast after settling
of the wort (I'm not good at leaving the post boil cold break out
of the fermenter). With carboys, I have to rack the wort to a
secondary to accomplish this, which allows for contamination.
5. It was really nice to grab a sample from the racking port right
after I had moved the wort to it!
Now for some questions, etc.:
1. Several people have stated that they are concerned about "sucking
in" air when draining trub/yeast. I am too, and have found a "solution"
At Beer, Beer and More Beer http://www.morebeer.com/. It is a plastic
.023 micron sanitary filter for just $4.95. I'm going to order two,
one for each of my conicals. I'll have to use a double hole stopper,
one hole for the air lock and one for the sanitary filter.
2. Racking port and ball valve sanitation is a problem, I'm considering
using a 1/2"
brass butterfly valve on both the racking port and the "dump" port.
again I found these at Beer, Beer and More Beer
http://www.morebeer.com/.
they cost a little more, but if I can maintain sanitation it is
worth the
$12.00 for each valve.
3. Since they are semi-opaque plastic, I am wondering if I need to cover
them to exclude UV light (or other spectra) thus avoiding the dreaded
"skunky beer" syndrome. Advice? The plastic may block the
wavelengths that cause the problem, does anyone know?
4. Cooling: I plan on using my extra fridge for that, although currently
I'm "doing ales", my basement is at 65F, but lagers will require
refrigeration.
That's about it for now, happy brewing!
Mike Roesch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:40:08 -0600
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman"@uhc.com>
Subject: Jamil's CC test
Jamil wrote:
On my third batch after getting my CC fermenters, I did a little experiment.
I split a 10 gallon batch of Robust Porter into a 7 gallon CC and a 7 gallon
carboy. Both went into the same fridge for temp control and I pitched
equivalent amounts of yeast slurry into both batches.
The CC reached TG at 5 days, while the carboy took 8 days. In a blind
tasting, the carboy batch clearly had much higher levels of diacetyl and
some additional esters. The difference was so pronounced, that it completely
convinced me that the CC was the way to go. There is also some interesting
information in George Fix's Analysis of Brewing Techniques, pages 104 - 108
about CC fermenters, their shape, and their effect on flavor. I know the
BB&MB folks designed their fermenters based on this research.
Me:
I may be mistaken, but the increased fermentation time and higher levels of
diacetyl & esters could point to a deficient amount of pitched yeast. Are you
sure you put the same amount of yeast in each one? It's not something that is
very easy to eyeball, especially if you are borderline underpitching to begin
with.
just a thought -
Dan in Minnetonka
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:57:11 -0500
From: DJ <shag@ipass.net>
Subject: CC Fermenters
The only evidence I have supporting CC's benefits or advantages over
carboys are the large assortment of old neglected unused carboys that
have not been touched or lifted in over a year.
My 12 gallon CC sits in my "cooling jacket" (a refrigerator). I rarely
remove it (very tight fit) from the fridge as I clean and sanitize in
the fridge. No lifting or turning up side down to dump liquids.
My process begins with my CC holding cleaner or sanitzer and without
lifting or moving it I dump the cleaner or sanitizer in the drain via
ball valve and drain hose.
Previous yeast or starter is dumped into the CC and the lid is clamped shut.
Wort is cooled and then pumped from kettle into the CC via bottom ball
valve using a quick-disconnect jumper hose. The incoming cooled wort
stirs the yeast slurry in the lower cone over the next 5 minutes of
pumping time therefore insuring a good mixing without any shaking or
rocking. I do aerate inline between pump and CC.
Keg via side port takes 5 minutes for two 5 gallon cornies.
Clean/sanitize and plan next batch.
My beer quality improved? I'm sure it has improved but probably not
because of the CC's shape, but because the whole process involving the
CC is easier on the delicate nature of the beer. I look forward to Mr.
Fix's report and findings.
Dan Johnson
CARBOY
Raleigh, NC
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:56:34 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re; Igloo vs. gott tuns
Ed-I have used Igloo tuns for quite a few years now. One for sparge water,
the other for mashing. Both are 5 gallon size. I brew 5 gallon batches of
beer and usually mash 9 to 10 pounds of grain. This amount fits fine.
Recently I brewed a batch of Sister Star Of The Sun with 13.1 pounds of
grain. Used 1 quart/pound ratio of mash water. Still, the mash fit into
the cooler with 2 inches to spare which allowed the top to be pushed down as
usual. This is about max for the 5 gallon size Igloo. You may be able to
scale up to the 10 gallon from this info. No problems with heat distortion.
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3575, 03/08/01
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