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HOMEBREW Digest #3528
HOMEBREW Digest #3528 Fri 12 January 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:
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Contents:
dropping ("Dr. Pivo")
Corn Sugar vs DME for Priming (Kevin White)
(no subject) (Alan Davies)
whats up with you lot, Survivor II (craftbrewer)
eggs and use by date ("Phillipa")
Re: Misinformation - though likely well intentioned. (David Lamotte)
Various (Tom smit)
brown gaskets and other amasing and relatively harmless things. ("Dr. Pivo")
re: Ammonia fridges (D.A.)" <drussel3@ford.com>
New RIMS idea ?? ("Jens Maudal")
Hop Pellets - Problems (Mike)
Dimmer switch on motor? / StrangeBrew ("Drew Avis")
more on sanitizing with alcohol ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Real Ale Homebrew Competition ("Ray Daniels")
Re: Alconox and beerstone (JDPils)
Re: Phil's Phalse Bottom Material ("Doug \"Beerguy\" Otto")
beer maturation / rousing experiment ("George de Piro")
("George de Piro")
EBUs ("stephen_weiss")
metabite/Bitterness (AJ)
DAN!! (EFOUCH)
CO2 in the secondary ("S. SNYDER")
Re: Experience with Alconox ("S. SNYDER")
Re: beer maturation / rousing experiment (Tom smit)
Mashing (Alan Davies)
Aeration probs, pitching new yeast (Alex Boster)
Fact or Fiction: MCAB III ("Bill Smith")
Cascade or Crystal, which one is it?? (Petr Otahal)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 03:36:05 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <docpivo@hotmail.com>
Subject: dropping
There was a question raised about the value of dropping in an ale, and some
answers given that could be divided into two groups.
"Drop at high krauzen and you may get flavours you might not like"
"Drop at the magically suggested time of exactly 14 hours (courtesy of Dr.
Cone (One would think that he would be a hop specialist rather than a yeast
one, with that name)) and it will be good for the yeast."
I think the second suggestion should not be taken quite so literally, but
will depend on the condition of yeast at pitching, rate, and temperature.
I had previously given a fair ammount of thought to this, but much more
since I received some time last year, an article from AJ DeLange... an
article I very much appreciated recieving, and which I have been derelict in
thanking AJ for...... so a LARGE thanks for your consideration AJ.... and I
even enjoyed your hastily scribbled free radicals on the H2O2 in the margin
(nice to see there is another visual thinker, who has to scribble while
thinking).
The upshot of this was, that overoxygenating in the beginning (as is often
reccommended here) actually leads to premature beer staling, as while eager
to absorbe oxygen, the yeast are certainly not putting EVERY molecule into
sterol synthesis (this should be inherently obvious, but I shall leave the
enzyme kinetecists to scratch their heads over it), and will oxidise things
that you may not want getting oxidised.
Perhaps the most reasonable approach would be to give them less O2 in the
beginning, and then more when the cell wall building process is in greatest
upswing.
If you have a microscope and a Buerker chamber, this is the point where you
have the greatest proportion of budding cells... at Suntory this was about
24 hours after the pitch (not 14).
For those of you without such toys, I'll tell you another way to judge this
(since I have had fun playing).
In traditional brewing terms this is "just coming on white krauzen" and you
can probably judge this better with your eyes, than by using any arbitrary
"fast" time.
So I would then put the subject of dropping into two categories... 1) mainly
yeast nutritional (early, begnining of white krauzen), and 2) mainly flavour
affecting by encouraging ceratin oxidative products (such as diacetyl)
(later, after start of white).
Ah yes, you might think. Which to choose, or should one do it at all?
In my case the answer is obvious..... do both and all, at different times,
and to exactly HALF of the brew.
I have found this a really joyous thing to work with.... one is suddenly
rewarded with two brews from the same brew, and the learning curve just goes
straight up....... for awhile. And then you sort of know what's going on,
know how you can vary your brew to tailor your tastes, and then you'll
probably have to go on to figuring something else out..... because
unfortunately most of this stuff simply isn't written down, and you'll find
that each yeast strain behaves differently.
Anyway, doing a "half drop" is one of the easiest ways I know to get some
pretty clean single variable information about wthe infinite possibl;ities
you have in front of you as a brewer.
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 23:00:03 -0500
From: Kevin White <kwhite@bcpl.net>
Subject: Corn Sugar vs DME for Priming
What are the advantages and disadvantages of priming for keg and bottles
using corn sugar or dried malt extract?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:25:23 +1100
From: Alan Davies <afjc@cnl.com.au>
Subject: (no subject)
Richard
We use metabisulphite as a sanitizer for some years after cleaning it
works well..
Our water comes from the Murray river and is treated in Yarrawonga. It
is good I have asked the local authorities for an analysis without
sucess. I have a rainwater tank I could use what treatment procedure
would you recommend?
As to sparge temperature what do you think.?
The problem with a Rim system is if the mash is to heavy the false
bottom clogs and you do not get reticulation through the pump. I have
enough trouble geting constant flow with a thin mash..
Hop addition is 60 grams of goldings and 30 grams of fuggles into the
boil. 15 grams of Goldings after the boil 10 grams for nose.Hope this
helps.
Regards
Big al.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:26:40 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: whats up with you lot, Survivor II
G'Day All
Well I recon you lot all need a lobotomy. At least that way you
I wouldn't have to worry about pleasing all the masses out there.
Yes i can see it now after the operation, headlines across the
internet, 'world peace breaks out on the HBD'. So is this wild
man from the deep north ranting again, like some half drunk
abo, bloody oath I am.
Here am I am, bruised and battered from the utter caining I have
received. Now I know how braveheart felt during the execution
and garotting. But i bounced back, I always do. So I get serious,
chuck in a few serious posts to show I occasional make the
odd beer, that i can read out of books, hell that i even know
what a grain of barley looks like.
Well bugger me, (and yes i have moved away from the wall
saying this) Now my fan mail is "what all this seriousness",
"How dare you talk like this" - "Are you unwell Mate". hell I
was even corrected on what is the true method of triangular
taste testing in Nth Qld should be (left hand, right hand,
both hands )
Well I recon the lot of you have a kangaroo loose in the top
paddock, one stubbie short of a carton, (bingo - theres the
beer related post) and all need to pay a visit to my local
swimming hole.
Stewth, even Phil, thou he continues to use girls names, and
cross dresses, is even throwing up (which i'm doing as we
speak) some content. I think I'm going to have to go walkabout
and pay a visit to hidden valley. Thats just to zip a certain
chaps fascination with the place.
Now I was going to talk about this great Tropical Flower Wit
that i am addicted to, but that would be two beer related
references in the one post and we cant have that. So lets talk
about something you all can relate to, and why I am celebrating.
Yes Survivor II has left out shores. (and not about time too.).
All reports are they found it far far tougher than the original.
So Mr GPS, watch the show, in fact all of you. I live a short
drive south of all this. Seems they encountered all the wildlife,
snakes and all. unfortunately, they were too far inland for my
salties to get them. It seems they decided to go a bit inland
exactly for that reason, They felt that one would be taken if
were closer to the coast. I would have thought the rule
was simple - put toe in water, lose leg.
Now they are apparently quoting Australia has nine out the top
ten poisonous snakes in the world. Not true people, we only
have seven out of the top ten, but we do claim the top five places
, with Nth Qld claiming the top three in the world. And they got
a good old fashion tropical downpour as well. so when you all
this show, have pity on a mad Nth Qlder. I live with it every day.
Shout
Graham Sanders
Oh
They didn't do it all tough up there. They had a support crew
over 230. living next to them. Now they were upset that they
only had one sauna, one internet cafe, and one gymnasium.
Now thats really roughing it isn't it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:28:44 +1100
From: "Phillipa" <backcrk@tpg.com.au>
Subject: eggs and use by date
G'day,
Beaverpelt said in a recent digest that there was an argument about use by
dates on eggs. My eggs come straight from the chook house and have no use by
date showing. Stale eggs are slightly lighter in weight than when they are
fresh and are very close to the density of water. It's easy to check, pop
the suspect egg in a cup of water, if it sinks it is ok, if it floats throw
it out. You can always double check by cracking eggs into a saucer and
giving it the sniff test before casting it in the cooking or bin. This also
helps if there are suspect fertilised eggs.
On a slightly different note, it is obvious from many posts from different
brewers that there is trouble in the brewhouse between SWMBO and HWO. Make
peace by brewing beers that the other person likes. Don't like beer? How
about a ginger beer, cider or lemonade, all easily made alcoholic or
non-alcoholic. Or brew up a kit wine. Involve your partner in the brewing.
Hopefully this will lead to more space for brew stuff and increased kitchen
use.
Cheers
Phillipa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:24:33 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Misinformation - though likely well intentioned.
FatCat (don't know who he is as he doesn't sign his posts) identidied 'A
recent poster' (that's me)
as posting missinformation. Now this was in reply to Richard Dulany's
question regarding using rum or vodka to rinse carboys.
For the record I wrote that:
"No, there is no problem doing this, but it won't do any sanitising.
Alcohol level needs to be around 80% and then you need fairly long contact
times to be effective, plus not all organisms are knocked out. "
Mr Cat (or can I call you Fat for short) claims that this is erroneous on
two counts.
"First, ETOH is equally effective in concentrations from 50% (volume) to
95% ... The usually recommended range for routine asepsis is 50-70%."
Now around these parts Vodka and Rum have an ethanol content of 35% - 40%.
Well below Mr Cat's required level. Not being a microbiologist I am forced
to rely on the information published by others. One such source is George
Fix, and I was replying to Richard's question from my recall of the
sanitising section in "Analysis of Brewing Techniques" (p 116), where he
states ...
"Simple alcohols like methyl alcohol are totally ineffective, while higher
(molecular weight) isopropyl alcohol is widely used. We found ethly
alcohol to be almost as good, especially when spiked with 1 % phosphoric
acid .... the most common isopropyl solutions are at 70% strength. Pure
grain spirits are a commonly available source of ethyl alcohol, and we
dilute these to 70%-80% strength with distilled water."
This led me to suggest to Richard that using cheap vodka (which isn't pure
grain alcohol) would be ineffective.
I have further offended the 'Cat by my claim of extended contact time. Fat
claims that "the contact time to kill a wide variety of truly nasty buggers
... is usually considered to be no more than 30 seconds (in the case of
Pseudomonas aeruginosa, as long as 90 seconds) for common vegetative
bacteria."
Now I have never seen any "Pseudomonas aeruginosa" (but I think that I
stepped in some once) in my beer so I question its relevance to this
forum.
I stand by my advice to Richard that there are better ways of solving his
problem by either avoiding the need to rinse, or by rinsing with cheap,
commercial beer.
David Lamotte
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:58:40 +0000
From: Tom smit <tom@lunica-data.com.au>
Subject: Various
Phil Yates wrote on a machine not his own
> I have had good success with corn in the form of polenta using the same
> technique. Corn in my opinion adds more character than rice
Very true. I am just beginning to drink a batch of American Cream Ale. The
corn adds a nice taste. I am hoping to make an all-grain CACA this year,
using corn shooting up in my backyard, with polenta if needed to make up the
required % maize. Can anybody advise how to make grits beginning with a cob
of corn?
Further in the digest Wayne Aldrich (et al) said
> As long as the bottles have been cleaned (bottle brush & detergent)
> and are free of labels I put mine in the oven and bake them at
> 220 degrees F for 20 minutes. -
I use a phosphoric acid cleaner/sanitiser, don't need to go to the trouble of
baking in an oven, just wash & rinse (rinsing not necessary, my preference).
Since the bottles are warm I put cling film over them if I
am not going to bottle that day. As the bottles cool, the cling film is drawn
tight over the mouths of the bottles, easier, safer and cheaper than foil
Steve G betters my aerating method. The
> Tom, I've been using this process for a long time and I have a suggestion
> to make it even better. The racking cane I use has . . . 10 pin holes . .
> .[that] pulls air through the holes as the wort passes.
Bloody good idea. My wort falls a minumum distance of three to four feet. With
the pin hole idea I doubt that I need do more but I will "do a search on
"delange and oxygen*"
Matthew Tolley pointed to a site covering aussie beer & culture
> http://www.australianbeers.com/
You may need to divert your attention from beer related items for a few
minutes and review recent news archives to know what I am talking about. Mungo
Man is proof humankind evolved not in Africa but in Oz! (True!) We in the
race's motherland therefore demand a lot more respect than we are used to
receiving! For a start all posts addressed to or concerning those living in
this hallowed land must begin with the salutation 'Source of Humankind's
Inherited Traits'. This is not to be condensed into an acronym!
Jeff has provided a couple of links to sites re Medieval/gruit beers and I
intend to closely peruse these sites when I can (some days away yet) I know
already that some herbs will be unavailable in Oz or will be called something
different. If some kind soul also interested in these old beers knows how I
can obtain these mysterious gruit herbs I would forever be in his debt.
Cheers
Tom Smit
Tiny Horses Brewery
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:56:07 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <docpivo@hotmail.com>
Subject: brown gaskets and other amasing and relatively harmless things.
Imagine my surprise when I read:
"So now I am torn - my beer has been getting better and better since I
started.
My last two batches are honestly better than 95% of the commercial
microbrews
that I have ever had. But perhaps it was the ever-increasing amount of mold
in
my tap that made it taste so good? I would hate to spoil a good thing by
cleaning out my friend the brown gasket. What do you think?"
I have also had a visit by the brown gasket, in a completely different area
of the world. I first noticed it as it hung out of the tap like an
afterbirth. Horrified I took the thing apart and found the culprit....
fairly solid, and a bit slimey. I am accustomed to mould flavours having
INCREDIBLE powers of flavouring, and even boiling old tap lines that have
got the "greeny" stuff in them, after being abusively left aside for long
ammounts of time, will not save them.... you can still smell them, and they
will still impart flavours..... I've learned to just chuck them out.
So, as the original poster, I wondered why the "brown gasket" did not do
likewise...to which the answer is "dun'no."
I did pull off a chunk of the little afterbirth and let it shortly reside on
my tongue, and it was both odourless and fairly tasteless.
The only advice that I can give, is that I did completely dissassemble the
tap, soak all the bits in hydrogen peroxide, and then went over it all
(includining the threads) with a cotton swab, and then soaked it again.
The gasket dissapeared, and it certainly didn't make my beer worse by doing
it........ I think.
.... I sure hope I didn't kill a beer fairy that was protecting my goods
from inclement evil.
The discovery of Pennicillin, has a somewhat parallel history.... perhaps
you've discovered an "anti-acetobacter, lactobacillus, pediococcus" mould.
I can smell potential Nobel Prize material here, son.
If nothing else perhaps a new sandwich spread (It couldn't possibly be
worse than Vegemite.... now that last comment ought to wake up the Aussies).
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:38:30 -0500
From: "Russell, David (D.A.)" <drussel3@ford.com>
Subject: re: Ammonia fridges
As a follow up to The Fridge Guy's post, I have come across a great catalog
for Amish people. They have many non-electric appliances listed in it, and
alot of other neat items. http://www.lehmans.com/
David Russell
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:09:39 +0100
From: "Jens Maudal" <Jens.maudal@c2i.net>
Subject: New RIMS idea ??
I had a little brain storm the other day about constructing or
rather where to place the heater in a RIMS setup, somebody
have probably done it already although i haven't come across it.
Instead of making a separate chamber for fitting an external
heater outside the mashtun, why not fit the heater element under
a false perferated bottom in the actual mashtun itself. The rest
of the system would of course be as before with the pump circulating
the wort out from underneath the the mashtun and back to the top
through eg. a manifold.
This would be a less complicated affair to make, possibly also cheaper.
The thermocouple could be fitted either under the perforated bottum
(not too close to the heater element) orwhere the wort exits the mashtun.
Has anybody done this already, and how does it work?
SKAAL!
Jens
Jens P. Maudal jens.maudal@c2i.net
Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Visit my humble RIMS and homebrew page:
http://home.c2i.net/bottomsup/index.htm
Norbrygg bryggeside: http://www.norbrygg.com
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:22:52 -0500
From: Mike <mroesch@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Hop Pellets - Problems
I guess this is more of a "rant" than a question.
After not brewing about about eleven years, I have started
up again. Well I went out and got supplies to make a Stout
that I have enjoyed in the past to get started (Extract + grains).
My local home brew suppliers don't have much in the way of
Hops and I could only get 2oz of leaf Fuggles for a recipe
that called for 2oz boiling and 1/2oz finishing. I had to use
pellets for the finishing hops. Well you can imagine what
I had to deal with when straining into my chilled H2O in
the fermenter after the boil! The "spooge" from the pellets
kept plugging my strainer in my nice new funnel! I'd bail
in a saucepan full of wort (into the strainer) and then have to
take a spoon and agitate the "spooge" collecting on the
strainer to get more than a few drops to fall through it!
What a "pain" took me forever to strain the wort into the
fermenter!
This is my first and last experience with hop pellets! Geeze!
why does anyone use them! Any suggestions on handling
the "hop pellet spooge" problems?
BTW: I also "pushed" a stopper into my carboy putting in the
airlock! (like nobody else on this list has done that! ha ha)
Luckily I had another sanitized stopper handy...;=}
At least I didn't have a boil-over!
Rant off!
Ok even after all that, the fermentation looks good (started that
day after inoculation with two reconstituted packs of Muntion's
ale yeast. Boy does it smell good in my basement! (The temp
is absolutely perfect for an ale, 63F!) Can't wait to bottle it!
Keep on Hoppin!
Mike Roesch
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:32:41
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dimmer switch on motor? / StrangeBrew
Brewers, I've motorized my Valley Mill! It's a beauty to behold, and was
actually quite easy once I found the right sheaves. Here's a funny
question, though: the motor is a 1/4 hp 1725 RPM unit that ran a furnace fan
in a former life. I've got it hooked to a standard light switch, but I was
thinking that I'd like to further reduce the RPM the sucker is turning at,
so maybe a standard dimmer switch would work. There have been dire warnings
here before about controlling pumps w/ dimmer switches - what about mill
motors?
Also: I've just released StrangeBrew v1.5, homebrew recipe formulation
software for windows. 20% of registration fees go to the HBD server fund
(Pat: the first cheque is in the mail). It's at:
http://www.geocities.com/andrew_avis/sb/
Cheers!
Drew Avis, brewing in the swamps of Merrickville, Ontario
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:43:35 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: more on sanitizing with alcohol
Larry had a question regarding CIP:
> What are the implications of
a sanitizing system that uses pressure to SPRAY alcohol
into an inverted fermenter or corny keg for, say, a few minutes?
The idea is that the alcohol drips out, is collected, and could
be used again or even recirculated.
I have seen devices for this which are designed to work on bottles (see the
link from my posting in yesterday's digest), however I have not seen one
which is designed for carboys or kegs. Many manufacturing Clean In Place
(CIP) systems will recirculate a cleaning solution within a tank by picking
up from the bottom and pumping through a sprayball(s) on the top of the
tank. Assuming that the sprayball ensures even distribution over the entire
surface of the tank for cleaning purposes, a sanitizing solution could be
passed through the system as well. Alcohol could be used - and if I might
interject here - acid aclohol would work 10X better than plain old 70%
ethanol. My suggestion would be to add enough phosphoric acid to 70%
ethanol to drop the pH to about 3. Phosphoric acid and ethanol are both
"natural" to beer as well as glass, plastic and stainless friendly. I
personally would use iodophor or even StarSan since you only now would need
1/4 - 1/3 of your container volume in sanitizer.
>Or is there some inherent problem with spraying a
>sanitizer as opposed to soaking in it?
The only problem is that soaking is wasteful. You only need to bring the
solution into contact with the surface being sanitized. So using 10 gallons
of iodophor in a 10 gallon fermenter is wasteful. Even using 5 gallons by
soaking the bottom first and then inverting is still wasteful in that it
uses 1/2 the solution, but takes up 2X the time. 2 gallons would probably
suffice in providing a good reservoir to cover a submersible aquarium pump
and fill the required hose. The only reason I haven't done this yet is that
I can't find a suitable homebrewed replacement for a sprayball yet. But I'm
working on it.
>BTW, what do commercial breweries use? Steam?
If steam is already in use for heating purposes, then you can bet is is also
in place for sterlization.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"Designs and schemes which work well on paper rarely do so in actual
practice."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:10:54 -0600
From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan@ameritech.net>
Subject: Real Ale Homebrew Competition
Real ale brewers, fire up the brew kettles! In March, Real Ale Festival 2001
in Chicago will include a Homebrewed Real Ale Competition. We have selected
this format as a way of creating interaction between the professional and
amateur brewers who attend the festival. Entries will be evaluated by the
commercial brewers and judges participating in the festival. Click here for
details: http://www.realalefestival.com/hbcomp01.htm
Ray Daniels
raydan@ameritech.net
www.RealAleFestival.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:37:27 EST
From: JDPils@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alconox and beerstone
With all this talk about beerstone, 5star products and alconox could someone
shed some light on what the disadvantages are with good old Clorox Bleech. I
use 1/2 tsp per gallon to sanitize glass carboys and bottles and 2tsp/gallon
to clean carboys after primary or secondary fermentation and several day
soak. I have done this for 12 years now with successful results.
Keeping it Simple,
Jim Dunlap
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:25:15 -0800
From: "Doug \"Beerguy\" Otto" <beerguy@hopdog.com>
Subject: Re: Phil's Phalse Bottom Material
First off let me say that I've used (and continue to use) many "Phils"
products.
Perhaps mine was a fluke, but in my mash tun I absolutely saw distortion
when direct firing. The curve would flatten out and I'd get grain past the
edges of the thing. I was very happy with it as long as I didn't directly
fire my mash tun. Perhaps if you use a larger one than I did and it fit the
sides of your keg it wouldn't be an issue.
- ------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:24:29 -0500
>From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Phil's Phalse Bottom Material
>
>Phil's' Phalse Bottom is made from polypropylene and I can tell you that
>after almost ten years of making them that they do not deform ( I deform in
>the the process of making them) until the temperature almost reaches 300 F.
>This is very unlikely to be reached in a brew kettle even at the contact
>point and even if steam is traped under the bottom. Steam of this
>temperature would require more than 50 psi to hold it back. We have yet to
>hear our first complaint about a bottom deforming due to boiling.
Dan Listermann
- --
Doug Otto
beerguy@hopdog.com
Carmichael, CA USA
Hop Dog Brewing - http://www.hopdog.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:47:21 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro@mindspring.com>
Subject: beer maturation / rousing experiment
Hi all,
Tom asks:
"How do you mature an ale before bottling or kegging? Do you mature a
specific length of time depending on OG? I mature my ales for a month in a
20l
plastic water container placed inside a fridge, while my 1100 OG Russian
Imperial Stout is in 4x5l kegs for a year as advised in Graham's Real Ales
book."
To which I reply:
I mature beer until it tastes done, which tends to be about 3-4 weeks after
brew day for a "normal" strength beer (4.5-5.5%ABV). Stronger beers tend to
take longer to peak, and most beers will benefit from an extra couple of
weeks beyond the 3-4 that I first give them.
Conducting a good fermentation with healthy yeast greatly reduces maturation
times. There is no reason a strong beer like an Imp. Stout should take a
year to be drinkable. It should be drinkable from the day it is some
fermenting, but perhaps get more complex with age.
Tom then continues:
"I bottled a partial-mash Caledonian 80/- last weekend without priming
after
a months maturation...The bottles were left on a bench top in the garage
which
probably reached well over 40C-not a speck of condition...Any
recommendations on how long the bottles should stay there to acquire
condition?"
Back to me:
The good news is, you seem to have avoided picking up a super-attenuating
wild yeast when bottling. The bad news is that this beer will never
carbonate: without priming there is no food for the bottling yeast!
The only time you can think about not priming a beer is if you are precisely
aware of the beer's expected final gravity and package the beer when it is a
little above that point, so that there is still fermentable material left.
If you package finished beer in a sanitary fashion with no primings, you'll
get no CO2.
- --------------------------------
Steve A. writes, regarding rousing of fermentations:
"Can anyone suggest a simple experiment to distinguish the
mechanical rousing vs CO2 concentration factors ? How to
remove CO2 w/o rousing, or rouse w/o removing CO2 ?"
Back to me:
One could ferment in corny kegs, sealing one toward the end of fermentation
and leaving the other open to an airlock. Rousing the sealed one will only
resuspend the yeast.
I suspect that Steve is correct in his hunch that rousing flocced yeast is a
waste and that it is CO2 removal that really does the trick of pushing the
gravity down that last bit. Once yeast flocc, they need to be introduced to
a fairly concentrated food source to make them come apart. They don't just
deflocc for anything.
Have fun!
George de Piro
C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:13:38 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro@mindspring.com>
Subject:
Hi all,
Keith Brown responds to my bit on hop utilization and time delays:
"Regarding hop utilization and chilling delay: George, I assume the
delay you're talking about is caused only by the necessity to
whirlpool the hops before chilling in the CF. Maybe I'm naive, but I
use a strainer to get as much of the whole hops out of the pot (maybe
5 mins) as I reasonably can, then start the siphon through the CF and
strain again at the other end as it goes into the fermenter. The hops
pass right through the CF, no problem."
Back to me:
There are a couple of major differences between what you are doing and what
I (and others) are doing that clarify the situation:
1. Except for what I grow, I use only hop pellets. I have my reasons for
this (the biggest reason being that pellets tend to be much fresher than
whole hops, especially those from homebrew shops). Pelletized hops cannot
be effectively strained out of wort, but whirlpool out very nicely. The
exact opposite is true of whole hops.
2. At home, I brewed 15 gallon batches. Straining hops from the bottom of
the kettle was not an option. At work I brew 10 bbl (11.7 HL) batches.
Straining out hops is not an option.
3. I never would trust my luck and allow whole hops into my CF heat
exchanger. Clogs during wort transfer suck.
4. By using a strainer to remove hop debris and then chilling immediately,
you are not removing any hot break material. Whirlpooling not only settles
hops, it settles hot break.
That pretty much sums it up.
Have fun!
George de Piro
C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:09:39 -0500
From: "stephen_weiss" <stephen_weiss@email.msn.com>
Subject: EBUs
I recieved two beer kits for the Holidays. They both have Muntons cans of
hopped malt extract. Every recipe I fined uses unhopped. It says on the
can how many EBUs are in it. I am used to IBUs and even HBUs but I do not
know how to hop my brew based on these EBUs. Please Help.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:56:08 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: metabite/Bitterness
Rich Sieben mentioned that metabite isn't much of a cleaner. It really
isn't much of a sanitizer either but what it is really, really good at
is "neutralizing" residual chlorine left on equipment when bleach is
used for sanitization/cleaning (bleach is a pretty good cleaner as it
contains a fair amount of lye). One place where a little metabite really
pays off is where you are sanitizing a filter prior to filtering beer.
Run a 1 tbsp/gal bleach solution through slowly to sanitize and drain.
Then run a solution made by dissolving 1 Campden tablet in a couple of
quarts of boiled (to sterilize) and cooled water through. This will
neutralize residual bleach. You will smell some sulfur dioxide but this
can only be good for your beer. The more SO2, the more stable it is.
That's one of the reasons lagers lager beter than ales.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
WRT to George's comments on the ASBC method for asessing bitterness. I
don't think anyone expects that this method is very precise. It is
intended (and it says this in the ASBC's published method (MOA)) to
"adequately represent beer bitterness" and this it does unless there are
known interfering substances. As the MOA notes, certain stabilizers used
by the megas are known to interfere. I'm sure other things do as well.
This should not be a problem within a brewery where consistency is more
important than accuracy but could well be a problem for a lab doing
analysis of samples from a large group of breweries who use interfering
substances and don't tell the lab. Nor should it be a problem for
homebrewers who are unlikely to use these stabilizers. A brewer
concerned that his beer contains interfers could (and probably should)
brew a batch, leave a portion of the wort unhopped as a control and then
treat the unhopped and hopped portions the same throughout fermentation.
The BU's measured by the ASBC UV procedure on the unhopped beer should
give an indication as to wheter there are appreciable interferences or
not.
Now note that the BU's measured by this process are BU's, not mg/L of
particular bittering substances. More exotic techniques such as the
other ASBC recommended procedure which uses HPLC does distinguish
between bittering principals but this method does not give as good an
indication of perceived bitterness and the UV method (I'm doing a
dangerous thing here - relying on memory). I think that this is because
the perception of bitterness is the result of a synergism between the
iso-acids and other things in the brew (sulfate ion, for example). Aging
of the hops apparently throws the HPLC method off while the UV
absorbtion method is immune.
In my personal experience, I have found that the UV method, warts and
all, does "adequately represent beer bitterness". Just last weekend I
announced to Mrs "Forty - two", dropped the cuvet into the slot and read
39 from the instrument so apparaently I'm sort of calibrated at least in
terms of what I brew. Could I do this with your beer or a commercial
beer? Don't know.
Thus the UV method may not accurately represent bittering substance
levels but it may, short of something exotic being done with GC/MS, be
the best method for assessing beer bitterness, even where there are
interferences if these can be determined and controlled. It is immune to
the age of hops, requires simple equipment which is easily operated by
untrained personell and uses small quantities of innocuous chemicals (20
mL gasoline, 1 drop octanol, 1 mL 3N HCl).
Cheers.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:38:00 -0500
From: EFOUCH@steelcase.com
Subject: DAN!!
Clean that frickin' thing!!!
I don't doubt your beers have been getting better'n better- probably due to
your increased prowess, and improved brewing skills.
But the mold cannot be contributing anything advantageous!!
It probably hasn't been causing much of a problem, since it's at the service
Before you clean your tap, try this out: Bottle up a few bottles just by
transferring through your moldy picnic tap into bottles. Then clean your tap,
wait two weeks and crack the bottles open.
Feh!
You probably won't even want to poison slugs with the results!!
Just be sure to empty out any bottles when your done- could make some bottle
bombs if they're left long enough.
Eric J. Fouch
Primetime Brewers
Kentwood, MI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:12:22 -0500
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER@LBGHQ.com>
Subject: CO2 in the secondary
You may have solved my problem. I have gotten into the bad habit of shaking
the carboy once in a while after I have racked from the primary to the
secondary. I love to see all those bubbles go free. I think I am removing
the CO2 from the secondary that is developing naturally, then, when I
bottle, it almost always takes several weeks (2-3-4) to carbonate in the
bottle at room temps. I would recommend leaving the CO2 alone in the
secondary, after all you want the beer to "CARBONATE" i.e. CO2, ultimately,
right?
Scott Snyder
Trumbull, CT
ssnyder@lbghq.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:21:46 -0500
From: "S. SNYDER" <SSNYDER@LBGHQ.com>
Subject: Re: Experience with Alconox
Bob:
I have used Alconox quite a bit as an environmental consultant. The residue
is "quite the pain in the ass" especially with room temp water or lower. I
can get it for a "very low cost" also but I personally wouldn't use it
unless I could check all the surfaces it came in contact with to ensure the
residue is gone, which defeats the purpose of cleaning. Yes it is _very_
foamy. And almost everything will leave no residue if you rinse it
enough...but how much is enough?
Scott Snyder
Trumbull, CT
ssnyder@lbghq.com
Happily lagering thanks to the great natural fridge with the blue ceiling.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:57:06 +0000
From: Tom smit <tom@lunica-data.com.au>
Subject: Re: beer maturation / rousing experiment
Hi,
Thank you for your post George. After I posted this query I noticed that in
Wheeler's "Home Brewing" he talks about commercial brewers suspending the
fermentation just before the end and then running the ale into casks, that is
maybe why he says an ale matured for its proper time should not need priming.
As a result of the feedback HBD'ers have been kind enough to provide to my
recent posts I am going to try a new fermentation schedule: After pitching
late on brewday (Saturday), rack with aeration ('drop') into second fermenter.
On Wednesday or Thursday (depending on SG readings & expected FG) rack ale
into 'cask' (20L water container) and into very cold fridge (to arrest
fermentation) and mature for 5-6 weeks, then bottle w/o priming and keep
bottles at 20C for 2-4 weeks. Then drink!
This seems about as close as I can come to the commercial ale brewing
practises Wheeler describes in his books. Comments anyone?
On another topic, that of ensuring a nice creamy, persistent head I have
thought of adding a small amount of pearl barley to the mash as well as some
wheat malt. I think many HBD'ers may use flaked barley but pearl barley is
cheaper and available in any supermarket. Would pearl barley be OK?
Cheers
Tom Smit
Tiny Horses Brewery
George de Piro wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Tom asks:
>
> "How do you mature an ale before bottling or kegging?
>
> To which I reply:
>
> I mature beer until it tastes done, which tends to be about 3-4 weeks after
> brew day for a "normal" strength beer (4.5-5.5%ABV). Stronger beers tend to
> take longer to peak, and most beers will benefit from an extra couple of
> weeks beyond the 3-4 that I first give them.
> The bad news is that this beer will never
> carbonate: without priming there is no food for the bottling yeast!
>
> The only time you can think about not priming a beer is if you are precisely
> aware of the beer's expected final gravity and package the beer when it is a
> little above that point, so that there is still fermentable material left.
> If you package finished beer in a sanitary fashion with no primings, you'll
> get no CO2.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:37:30 +1100
From: Alan Davies <afjc@cnl.com.au>
Subject: Mashing
Gday Rick,
It looks like I am getting an infection from somewhere. Will look hard.
I know all about the advance brewing machine, and I would have brought
one except for two things your power is different from ours and they
where not prepared to change or modify. I considered a transformer but
the whole thing was a problem. The other was our currency is only worth
half of yours. By the time I got it here it was going to cost me $ 4000
A.
My mash was 3.37 pints per lb.I am going to do a 5 gallon mash at 2
pints per lb. and see how that turns out.. Will let you know.
Regards
Big al
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:20:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Alex Boster <alex_boster@yahoo.com>
Subject: Aeration probs, pitching new yeast
This is my first post. Be gentle. :)
I'm an extract + specialty grains brewer. A few days ago, I made a
batch of Old Pecular clone. I was using distilled water from a 5 gal
carboy and I forgot to take into account the volume that the wort uses.
I used a 5 gal glass carboy as a primary. Thus I ended up with a VERY
full carboy (and even a smidge of wort left over -- ouch). In a fit of
stupidity, I tried to aerate and then pitched yeast.
Of course, with no airspace to speak of there was no aeration. There
are now some signs of minor fermenation (or could it be contaminates?).
My question is: What's the best thing to do now? I'm inclined to try
tossing out a small amount of beer (ouch the pain) from the fermenter,
aerate and pitch more yeast. But would it be better to wait and see
what happens now that it is doing something?
FYI: My basement is a bit chilly for ale yeast (low 60's F), so
everything seems to take a little longer...
Alex
Lexington, KY, USA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 03:31:06
From: "Bill Smith" <billsmith11@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fact or Fiction: MCAB III
I was think about going to the MCAB III but I'm not finding much out about
it. I went to the HBD main page, the MCAB link goes to last years MCAB II
page. Luckily, there is a link to the MCAB III page from the MCAB II page.
So I go to the MCAB III page, the site looks like it's been neglected for
quite some time. The main page says "MCAB3 - In Early 2001". No mention of
when or where it's going to be held or who is hosting it.
Under "Qualifiers", it says "Please check back in February 2000." Well, it's
nearly a year later... Under the "Qualifying Events", most events don't have
dates, a few don't have any contact info at all. That's for competitions
held last year.
Is this really the offical page for MCAB III?
Is the MCAB III really going to happen? Is there any firm information
regarding the conference? Is there a speaker list? Maybe I should just go to
the Oregon Brewer's Festival instead.
I don't mean to grip and I realize that this is all volunteer. The lack of
information makes me feel like the MCAB is starting into it's decline. I
hope not.
Billy Beer Smith
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:56:26 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal@utas.edu.au>
Subject: Cascade or Crystal, which one is it??
Here's my brew:
Cascade Road Pale Ale
50L batch size
6.5kg Pale malt (65%)
2kg Munich (20%)
1kg Toasted Pale malt (15min @ 180C) (10%)
500g Medium (~45L) Crystal (5%)
Single Infusion 64-65C for 1.5hrs 2.8 L/kg ratio.
1.5hr sparge with 40L @ 75C
Stopped sparge at 1.008 runoff gravity
Boil
2tsp gypsum
60g Northern Brewer pellets 9.7%aau (60min)
56g Cascade plugs 5.5%aau (15min)
56g Cascade plugs 5.5%aau (5min)
Cooled with immersion chiller over 30 min.
Pictched Wyeast 1007 German from starter.
Primary fermentation at around 18C for 14days
OG 1.054 FG 1.011
The beer turned out well, slightly cloud a very light coppery red, overall
tastes pretty good with a fairly high bitterness.
Now here's the question(s):
Only one thing I dont like, it is overly sweet for me almost a cloying
sweetness. Could someone tell me where this is from?
Is it the ammount of crystal? I didn't think it was an excessive ammount,
Ive made extract batches with proportionately more crystal than this and
they weren't as sweet.
Is is the large ammount cascade flavour and aroma hops? Ive heard that
they can impart a sweetness, is that true?
Thanks.
Pete.
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3528, 01/12/01
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