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HOMEBREW Digest #3535
HOMEBREW Digest #3535 Sat 20 January 2001
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
what's up must come down ("Dr. Pivo")
Big Boils that are not on my bum. ("Dr. Pivo")
re: Am I ready for all grain? (Edward Doernberg)
beer is finally carbonated! (Christopher Chow)
Subject: Gott coolers online ("Houseman, David L")
clay pot chiller ("steve lane")
GMO, again ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Warmth amongst beer kegs... (Jeff Renner)
Re: Warmth amongst beer kegs... (Some Guy)
low tech??? (Marc Sedam)
Draft Beer = Headache? ("Timmons, Frank")
feeding the critters spent grain (david.persenaire)
Mash hopping and Promash ("Hardter")
warm kegs ("Benjy Edwards")
patrick on peristaltics ("Sean Richens")
Re: warm kegs (The Man From Plaid)
HTMLized 1999 BJCP Styles Guide ("Steve")
Unsticking a stuck RIMS ("John R. Peed")
HBD Website Renovation Underway (The Man From Plaid)
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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* Bluebonnet Brew-Off Entry Deadline is 2/9/01!
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 06:24:05 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <docpivo@hotmail.com>
Subject: what's up must come down
Alan Meeker wonders:
"Thursday's Doc Pivo posting, in which he waxes poetic concerning a research
article (!) on oxygenation, begs the question, "Which Doc Pivo is currently
gracing us with his presence?" Surely not our usual contributor - that
champion of experience uber alles and tireless combatant of "librarians"
everywhere. Could it possibly be that he is coming around, recognizing that
while experience is invaluable there is also much to be gained from perusing
the scientific brewing literature?"
To which the answer is quite simple.
I have spent an absolutely DISGUSTING ammount of time perusing literature,
and still very much enjoy it as a jumping off point for my thoughts.
The fact that I have also tried to test the relevance of many oft' repeated
ideas, within the framework of trying to produce a nice fresh beer, has lead
me to believe that much of the information is indeed correct, if your aim in
cheese making is "Velveeta", bread making is "wonder bread", and beer is
"Budweiser".
I kind of have other tastes and therfore diverge from some literary
suggestions, and question most of them.
The article I mentioned was in fact a very good example of just how
useful/useless these things can be..... They ogengenated at various levels
starting at 8ppm and going upwards. Analysis was done both by spin
resonance, and trained tasting panels. Other studies were cited showing
that spin resonance has been shown to correlate well with oxidative states,
and subsequent judgement of "staling" by panels.
And what did they come up with.
The lowest level (8ppm) was shown to have the lowest measured oxidative
destruction, and was by blind tasting judged as the least stale tasting.
Does that sound like a good study?
NOOOOOOOOOOO.
Now, where else have you ever heard of a study where the maximum value lies
at one extreme of the variables, and THEY DON'T BOTHER TO PERSUE THAT
VARIABLE ANY FURTHER!
I'll tell you where.... in industrial literature.
If some researcher persues that further and finds that at even less levels
of oxygenation, the beer becomes even better, but takes the company longer
to produce it (and thus costs the company more,) that is one researcher who
won't be heading up the next project, if he is still retained at all.
The literature that is produced by, and for, the industry is REPLEAT with
this sort of "reasoning within a protected limit", and I can't see why the
article quoting crowd here can't see that.
I can, and I'm not that bright.
Moreover, when I do set up single varible 'spurments, and then send them
through blind tastings, I keep finding over and over, that the literature
(and a great deal of what is spouted here), is riddled with things that are
not only irrelevant, but often counterproductive.
If we brew more, and try and play with our stuff more (Not that way,
Graham,...shame on you), and try and do some objective analysis, we could
probably figure a lot of things out.
On the other hand, I think the folks at "Coors" have very little to offer me
except "ideas" about what one might try, and then either accept or reject.
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:51:49 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <docpivo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Big Boils that are not on my bum.
The scurilous aleman of the Blackbath Brewery cites a long boiling time of 3
hours at the Pilsner Urquell Brasserie.
I believe that actual figure is 4.
But they are after all, just numbers. You'd probably do best by playing with
it.
And that is precisely what "the Baron" is proposing doing.
It seems our "highlander" is a bit of a collector (motorcycles, lawn mowers,
gates, etc).... and yes, I must tell it.... turtles. In fact I drove about
600 kilometers in order to turn up on the day of our Coriolis Experiment
(see if I could brew standing on my head, and find out what happens if you
stir the wort the other way), and found Phil asleep........ out on his
lawn........ in a tent..... with one of his many pet turtles.
I'm not sure if Jill was aware.
At any rate, Phil has collected brewing gear as well: has two propane tanks,
two ring burners, and two kettles.
As we planned the brew, my only rationalle for the long boil, is that it
gives a "tarry" flavour that enhances the richness of the malt tones.
Phil thought this interesting enough that he plans to do a "double boil" at
one point, splitting the wort, doing one normal, and one long, and then
dilute back the long one to the same gravity, and ferment side by side.
I for one, will be quite interested to hear the result, as I've never done a
"parallel brew" with this, but have only compared them "serially", which is
not such a good method to be sure what's going on........ and as all other
things not well tested, I could just be fooling myself.
Dr. Pivo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:57:53 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd@q-net.net.au>
Subject: re: Am I ready for all grain?
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:51:24 -0500
>From: Randy Miner <randy@metzbridges.com>
>Subject: Am I ready for all grain?
I don't see why not.
the only gear your missing is a chillier. i built an emersion chillier
from 10m (1m~3feet) but i find it dose not work well as my tap water is
hotter than i want to pitch at so i use 8 1.25L drink bottles full of
ice. sterilize the outside of the bottles and drop them in the pot after
the emersion chillier has dropped the temp a bit.
if you have the freezer space you could use frozen water bottles for all
the chilling but they probably would need to be changed.
I wouldn't leave it over night to cool because of the risk of infection
and the lack of a good cold brake will cause chill haze with dose not
affect the beers flavor but it dose not look good.
Edward
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:30:33 -0500
From: Christopher Chow <chow@engineer.com>
Subject: beer is finally carbonated!
Hello
I would just like to thank everyone who helped me out with my non
carbonated first batch. It seems like all it needed was more time! two
weeks later (after the initial 2 weeks) the smaller bottles (12oz) were
carbonated. But the 22oz bottles took another 2 weeks. Interesting eh? Any
how. I'm going to brew another beer soon so I am in need of some more
advice. Heres the recipe I found in the "beer recipator" its called Keith's
Old Ale. Its supposed to be a clone of Newcastle.
- ----
1lb. American crystal 40L
.25lb. British chocolate
(steeped for 20 min @ 165F)
3lb. 3oz. Amber malt extract
6lb. Amber dry malt extract
1oz. Willamette 5%AA, 60min
1oz. Willamette 5%AA, 15 min.
Wyeast 1215
Primary fermentation at 68F for THREE days? (this is what he logged aparently)
Secondary for 10 days
sg 1.074
fg 1.008
- -----
What do you guys think? Close to Newcastle? Any suggestions? Should I
substitute dry malt for liquid? what brand?
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:58:28 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: Subject: Gott coolers online
Greg Owen states: "I did this last week and proceeded to tour
said local stores, only to find that a) it's winter, b) insulated coolers
aren't a hot item in winter, and c) the one store that had coolers stocked
didn't go up to 10 gallon." Can't speak for all stores in all areas but
when I asked at my local ACE or True Value Hardware store (can't recall
which at the moment), I was told that while they didn't carry them in stock,
they could get it in a matter of days. So I ordered one from them and in
less than a week, I picked up my 10gal Gott/Rubbermade for about $48 (plus
tax but no shipping). So perhaps all one has to do is ask...
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:23:57 -0600
From: "steve lane" <tbirdusa@hotmail.com>
Subject: clay pot chiller
Saw an article last nite in Popular Mechanics December issue where a bushman
had rec'd $75,000 for an invention that has been used to keep crops fresh
for up to a month without refridgeration. Goes like this:
1 very large clay pot with smaller clay pot inside. Place item to be
cooled, in their case produce, in the inner smaller clay pot. Fill the void
in between the two pots with sand. Wet the sand and cover the pots openings
with leaves. Keep sand moist.
Sound familiar?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:53:34 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: GMO, again
Graham write of GMO:
>So wheres the bad. I am very worried when (and it will come -
>mark my words) when they dont stop at one, but add two,
>three.....a hundred different genes. Now the permutations, if
>you like number of likely reactions will increase exponentially
>(a huge amount) the more genes you spice into a cell.
>I can accept a couple of new gene additions, but not a couple
>of hundred..........................................
I promised myself I wouldn't do this. Nope. The damnable thread came back
again to haunt us, I'm not going to comment on GMOs. ALRIGHT! I like GMOs
because I'm looking forward to growing that extra digit, OK?!? Maybe a
third eye so I can look at girls with one and still pay attention to the
road. I also don't mind hormones in meat and milk. If it makes me grow
breasts then SWMBO will be happy because I'll have my own to play with.
Genetic manipulation is not an easy task. You cannot just willy nilly
excise a gene from one organism and stick it into the genome of another. I
know. I've done it before. Before I made computers my life (God, I'm in
hell). The more you add the more difficult it becomes. When it comes to
food products I can see the addition of genes targeted to provide disease
and pest resistance - even growth enhancers. I can also see elimination of
some genetic material which may code for undesirable traits. As far as a
"couple hundred" additions, is there room? I don't think there is the need,
leta lone the room, for that many.
One thing that science need to do is to perform "cleaner" insertions.
Sometimes extra DNA is carried along as a kind of padding or as a marker to
signal successful insertion. These markers can be problemetatic as well as
some of the excess DNA as it might actually code for something. Allergic to
strawberries? Oh sorry. We carried over some extra DNA from the strawberry
into the peanut. Care to try one? I think this is where Graham's mention
of permutations and reactions will really come into play. Science is trying
it's best to understand and perfect these techniques. It's the rush to the
market that makes it sloppy.
As for my beer, I'm not worried. I don't think there are any GMO products
out there that will ruin my beer. But I also don't think there are any that
will really help.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen A. Pannicke
glen@pannicke.net http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"Designs which work well on paper rarely do so in actual practice"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:43:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: Warmth amongst beer kegs...
Pat Babcock <pbabcock@hbd.org> wrote
>Without proper attention to line
>lengths, you'll find yourself wearing more beer than you're drinking,
>regardless of how chilled your mug is!
This is not a problem for me with low carbonated "real ale." My
cellar runs about 65-68F in the summer and now that I have an extra
deep freeze, I keep my kegs there at 55F, but previously I used the
chilled mug method and maybe 8-10 psi. This gave a normal pour and
properly carbonated, cool ale. Of course, the irony of brewing is
that in the summer I like a more nearly cold beer, and in the winter,
a nice cellar temperature ale. But winter is the best time to brew
lagers, and summers are best for ales.
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner@umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:52:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Warmth amongst beer kegs...
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jeff Renner wrote of high-velocity beer:
> This is not a problem for me with low carbonated "real ale."
True, and good point: one solution to the quandary, besides playing the
pressure game, is to NOT carbonate the beer - treat it as a "real ale".
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:38:39 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: low tech???
Randy, you think this is low tech? Other than my installed temp
probe you have it over on me.
The only thing your system needs (and even this is loose) is a
thermometer. Attach the mashing thingy to one of your kegs. Add
2 gallons of 170F water. Add 7lbs of pale malt and a half pound
of 40L crystal and possibly a quarter pound of Victory, Biscuit,
or home-toasted malt. Throw two ounces of East Kent Golding
pellets in the mash. Mash for an hour. Sparge with four gallons
of 170F water. Boil with an ounce of the hop of your choice.
Chill overnight (it's your world, man). Pitch your favorite
yeast (liquid or dry). Ferment. Drink.
Low tech my patootie. You're all-grain, all the way! Get
crackin' lad.
-Marc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:51:44 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons@honeywell.com>
Subject: Draft Beer = Headache?
Recently , I got pulled into a discussion between my secretary and one of my
co-workers about beer. They seem to think that I am an authority.
Anyway, my secretary insists that draft beer gives her a slamming headache
after one or two beers, but beer in bottles and cans doesn't. To her "beer"
is bud, miller, coors, or corona for when she is being festive.
I searched the archives and found references to sulfites, and specific
brands of beer that cause headaches, but nothing about this. I told her that
it was probably in her head. Has anybody else noticed this?
Frank Timmons
Richmond, VA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:58:04 -0600
From: david.persenaire@abnamro.com
Subject: feeding the critters spent grain
I thought I'd share this with the collective even though this subject has
died down recently. I made a batch of "I Had a Dream" pilsner on 15
January, the celebrated holiday of Martin Luther King for us in the states.
The brew went off without a hitch even if it was my first 10 gallon batch
that had to be triple decocted. While waiting for the boil I did my usual
and took the spent grains and walked through the snow and dumped them where
I believe my garden used to be. The next morning my wife called me at work
to say there are several rabbits feasting on the grain pile. Today, three
days later, she called again to ask what are all these little round balls
sitting on top of our snow all over the back yard. I said, "must be rabbit
excrement" (that should pass by the janitor). I had a pile of grains
sitting there from a brew I did two weeks prior (a very tasty maibock)
which was the same malt. The rabbits must have made a new discovery
because they have devoured both piles and left little piles behind all over
the yard. I would have to agree with a past post that the critters are
probably not getting a whole lot of nutrition out of the stuff since after
three decoctions I got some incredible efficiency from that malt. From the
volume of excrement left behind I'm guessing the grained passed through the
little buggers in a pretty big hurry.
Dave Persenaire
Tinley Park, Illinois
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:46:27 -0500
From: "Hardter" <hardter@rcn.com>
Subject: Mash hopping and Promash
Hello again everyone,
Recently, I posted here requesting advice on my bitterness being thrown off
(by aroma/ flavor hops) due to my whirlpool delay and long (1 hour) CF
cooling process. E-mail advice ranged from accounting for this delay by
reducing bittering hops, to using hop bags for finishing hops, and finally
attempting mash hopping.
I am contemplating the last. When mash hopping, do I change the bittering
hops at all? Do I change the amount of finishing hops? Does mash hopping
affect bitterness or just flavor and aroma? Finally, and most importantly,
how do I handle mash hopping when using Promash? I just think this program
is great! Thanks in advance for the advice.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:55:35 -0500
From: "Benjy Edwards" <rdbedwards@hotmail.com>
Subject: warm kegs
This thread got to talking about balanced carbonation systems versus
unbalanced ones, i.e. where the keg must be vented and the carbonation level
will drop over time.
The question I have is: I serve my beer at 52 degrees F, which
requires about 20 psi to carbonate to ~2-2.5 volumes. How can I have a long
enough beer line to balance this system? With about 3 feet of line there's
nothing but foam. Dave Miller's idea that each foot of 3/16" line has 3 psi
or something like that doesn't work for me! Based on my experience, I would
need something like 25 feet of line. Is a balanced system only obtainable
if you serve your beer at 45 degrees or less?
Thanks!
Benjy Edwards
rdbedwards@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:34:50 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens@sprint.ca>
Subject: patrick on peristaltics
>>i don't know what i'd do if i didn't work in a lab...
Well I for one wouldn't be lusting after all of this groovy glass and
stainless gear that isn't available for mass market prices.
Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks@sprint.ca
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:54:06 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: Re: warm kegs
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Benjy Edwards <rdbedwards@hotmail.com> writes:
> This thread got to talking about balanced carbonation systems versus
> unbalanced ones, i.e. where the keg must be vented and the carbonation
> level will drop over time.
> The question I have is: I serve my beer at 52 degrees F, which
> requires about 20 psi to carbonate to ~2-2.5 volumes. How can I have
> a long enough beer line to balance this system? With about 3 feet of
> line there's nothing but foam. Dave Miller's idea that each foot of
> 3/16" line has 3 psi or something like that doesn't work for me!
> Based on my experience, I would need something like 25 feet of line.
> Is a balanced system only obtainable if you serve your beer at 45
> degrees or less?
Good observation! At elevated serving temperatures, there's the added
complication that the CO2 doesn't WANT to stay in solution. The colder the
liquid, the easier it is to keep CO2 in solution - you're only fighhting
with pressure; not temperature. (Another experiment for the curious: take
two identical bottles of soda pop - say: Coke. Put one in the
refrigerator, and one on your counter top. The next day, put on a raincoat
and open them both. Note how the warm one foams out of the bottle.)
At "typical" serving temps, your beer will hold those 2 to 2.5 volumes
without complaint, for the most part. You will get CO2 eveolving from
solution as the liquid warms and from nucleation points.
At higher temperatures, the liquid is supersaturated. Once released from
the high pressure, CO2-rich environment of the keg, it only sees CO2 at
ambient partial pressure and the CO2 boils out of suspension!
I wonder whether it is even possible to have beer with 2 - 2.5 volumes of
CO2 in solution in your glass at 52'F and normal atmospheric pressure?
Anyone out there have any data to support or refute (aside from the
"Hyuck! Ahm holdin' a glass of it rot now!" My bet is, even if you THINK
you are, you aren't...).
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:50:57 -0500
From: "Steve" <stjones1@chartertn.net>
Subject: HTMLized 1999 BJCP Styles Guide
Greetings, all.
Jason asked about HTML versions of the 1999 styles guide.
I modified them last year for use on our web site. It is a framed
version, with the top row for our site menu, the second row for the BJCP
Styles committe acknowledgements, and the last row has a column of html
links to the individual styles, with the right column (which is the
largest part of the viewing area) containing the individual style page.
I made a copy of the files and modified them to remove the absolute
links to our site path and removed the background. I zipped these up,
and added a link to download them. They are available for anyone to
download and use as they please.
The link is http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew/styles/styles.htm
Steve Jones
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, TN
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:32:04 -0500
From: "John R. Peed" <jpeed@gar.net>
Subject: Unsticking a stuck RIMS
Someone recently asked about correcting a stuck RIMS mash. The best
method I've found for unsticking a stuck RIMS, or any stuck mash, is to
back-flush into the bottom of the mash tun. If you've got a RIMS setup,
then by definition you have a pump. All you have to do is connect the
pump inlet to the sparge tank outlet, then connect the pump outlet to
the mash tun outlet. Open the valves, fire up the pump and force sparge
water up through the mash. Sometimes you won't even be able to force
any water all the way up through the mash, but the backpressure alone,
plus the dilution, will free up the mash. Stirring is not necessesary,
and therefore, recirculating to clear the wort is not necessary. If you
were sparging when the mash stuck, just reconfigure for sparge and carry
on. The runnings will be clear water for a minute or so, but sparged
wort will begin to flow before long, and it should run much more freely
than before.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:33:23 -0500 (EST)
From: The Man From Plaid <pbabcock@hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Website Renovation Underway
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Just a quick note to point out that the HBD website has been undergoing
rennovation. For the most part, we are attempting to incorporate
suggestions and relieve complaints we have received regarding the main
site over the past several years. But, we are also trying to improve the
content and usability of the site.
Aside from a new, better organized and more cheerful look for the page,
here's some of what's been going on:
o First, there is a more faq-like faq on the Digest itself.
o Second, the Brewery and the HBD has combined efforts on a new,
revamped "Brews & Views" message base. Very nice!
o Third, the Home Brew Flea Market has been transferred to the HBD
and made into a full-featured online classified system! No more
emailing your ad to me, then waiting until I get around to adding
it! Accepts photos, too!
o Fourth, there has been an IRC portal to a HBD channel added.
o Fifth, Realtime HBD - a web-based chat where you can gather to
discuss things in realtime. A scheduling calendar has been provided
for those who would like to schedule chats on certain subjects.
o Changes, outtages and other HBD news items are noted in the new
"HBD SITE NEWS" pick on the menu.
Please drop by, look around and tell us what you think!
I'd like to get additional ideas and changes in whilst the current
"lull" in my professional life allows me the time to focus on the page.
Thanks!
- --
-
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock
"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
from my yeast lab Saturday
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3535, 01/20/01
*************************************
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