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HOMEBREW Digest #3485
HOMEBREW Digest #3485 Thu 23 November 2000
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Good beer bars in Amsterdam? ("John S Thompson")
Re: Co2 tank pressures (Christopher Farley)
Nitrogen Dispensing ("Art Tyszka")
Head Retention (Des Egan)
Enzyme Kinetics - part 4 ("Stephen Alexander")
Barley flour, the wet (craftbrewer)
Fwd: ah the children of the world (craftbrewer)
Fwd: Barley flour, the wet (craftbrewer)
CO2 (AJ)
Re: Brewing with Steam? (Gary Melton)
Natural gas burners ("Frank E. Kalcic")
Gambrinus (JE)" <steinbrunnerje@dow.com>
thanks, scientific method (Doug Hurst)
Cornie help (Anthony Torrez)
Anyone using the mashmate? ("Alan McKay")
Calcium carbonate in Brett medium ("Sean Richens")
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:31:06 -0600
From: "John S Thompson" <jthomp6@lsu.edu>
Subject: Good beer bars in Amsterdam?
I have the occasion to go to Amsterdam for 4 days in a few weeks. Can anyone
point me towards a resource for some good beer bars there?
Thanks!
John
Baton Rouge, LA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:08:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Christopher Farley <chris@northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Co2 tank pressures
> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:19:51 -0800
> From: "Scott" <Windsurf@bossig.com>
> Subject: Co2 tank pressures
>
> I have just received a 10 lb tank exchange from the welding company.
> However, the tank pressure read 500 lbs. Is this really a full tank? I
> know the tank pressure is not exact, and varies according to standard
> temperature and barometric pressure. However, I deal with O2 e-cylinders
> all the time, and a new tank usually registers 2000 psi. Did they give me a
> low tank? Our outside temperature is near freezing now, if this helps.
In my experience cold temperatures can dramatically affect tank
pressure readings.
A more accurate way to determine CO2 is to weigh the tank. First,
determine the TARE weight of the cylinder. It is often stamped into
the cylinder, and abbreviated as "TWx.x", where x.x is the weight of
the tank in lbs. If the actual weight is TARE weight + 10 lbs., your
tank is full. If you don't have a TW stamped in the cylinder, the
welding company might be able to provide it for you.
For guestimation purposes, I've got an aluminum 10# CO2 tank in the
shop that's got a TW of 13.8 lbs. Steel tanks are heavier.
- ----
Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer / 1150 Grand Avenue / St. Paul, MN 55105
www.northernbrewer.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:59:53 -0500
From: "Art Tyszka" <art@loyalshepherd.com>
Subject: Nitrogen Dispensing
I gave into my "Guinness Envy" and bought the necessary items to start
dispensing my stouts this way. Nitrogen tank with 80/20 mix, regulator and
a stout faucet from our list's generous sponsor. Hooked everything up to a
previously tapped keg, purged the C02 and was disappointed to get a pint
full of foam and an almost non-existent cascade.
So what am I doing wrong? I've tried pressure everywhere from 5 - 25 and
still get straight foam. Do I need to remove the majority of C02 from the
beer? The faucet has an adjustment that doesn't seem to do much of anything
except send a 6" geyser of stout out the top when turned too far in one
direction.
Art Tyszka
Chesterfield, MI
Loyal Shepherd Brewing Co.
www.loyalshepherd.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:05:56 +1000
From: Des Egan <desegan@telstra.com>
Subject: Head Retention
My last two batches have only retained a foaming head for about 20 seconds
after pouring. The literature suggests this is because of detergent residue.
I have eliminated the beer glass as the culprit so I am assuming that the
detergent is being introduced during my (extract) brewing process.
Either: Washing detergent residue in my ss brewpot, and/or
Bleach residue in the bottles or plastic carboy (I use a weak bleach solution
and then leave the containers to drain and airdry.
Or , is there some other explanation...!
Am I heading in the right direction?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 05:19:14 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Enzyme Kinetics - part 4
= Effects of Substrate Concentration on rate of Catalysis (cont)
Last time we developed the Michaelis-Menten equation,
10/ v0 = k2 * [E0] * [A] / (Km + [A])
which describes the rate of product formation at equilibrium conditions.
v0 (= d[P]/dt), literately the rate of product concentration increase (for
example measured in moles/liter/second) is directly proportional to the
initial enzyme concentration [E0]. Double the amount of enzyme present in
the mash tun, and you double the rate of product formation.
v0 is also proportional to k2, the rate constant which describes the rate of
product formation from activated complex [EA] , { v0 = [EA] * k2 } . k2 we
will later see is dependent on several factors such as temperature and
product concentration [P] and so to the degree we can change k2, we also
proportionally change the rate of product formation.
Terms like "[A] / (Km + [A])" often appear in relation to rate &
concentrations. The Michaelis constant { Km = (kr1 + k2) / k1 } is really
only constant under conditions where these individual rates k1, kr1, k2 are
constant. Typically this would mean constant temperature, pH etc. Still
this is the term which describes the major impact of substrate concentration
on the rate of product formation. I've pointed to a graphical plot several
times, but consider http://www.math.com/students/solvers/graphs/plot.htm
then plot y = x / (1 + x) from say x = 0 to 3. The horizontal axis (0..3)
represents the substrate concentration from 0 to 3*Km, and the vertical axis
the rate of product formation from 0 to about 0.7*(k2*[E0]).
If the substrate concentration [A] becomes very large [A] >> Km
then [A] / (Km + [A]) is nearly 1.0 so eqn 10/ can be
approximated as
11/ v0 ~= k2 * [E0]; when [A] >> Km
this rate forms a limit for product formation called the maximum 'velocity'
or 'V', so we define
12/ V = k2 * [E0]
We are stating that you have so much substrate that you overwhelm
the amount of enzyme, then product is generated at a maximal rate.
Basically it means that almost all of the enzyme is in it's complexed
state, 'EA', most all of the time so v = k2 * [EA] ~= k2 * [E0] .
If you have two enzymes which perform the same function (for example
beta-amylase from barley versus bacteria) but have different product rate
constants (k2) then the amount of product formed under high substrate
concentrations [A] will be proportional to this constant and the other two
rates (kr1 and k1) are approximately irrelevant. We can also write
13/ v0 = V * [A] / (Km + [A]) = V / ( 1 + (Km/[A]))
Experimentally derived constants:
Usually, even today, it is often difficult to isolate a particular enzyme of
known concentration. Despite this, if the substrate concentration [A] can
be made high enough so that [A] >> Km then we can measure 'V' approximately.
It's a fairly simple experiment to saturate an unknown concentration of
enzyme ([E0] = ?) with a vast amount of substrate and then measure the rate
that product is generated (V).
To make this concrete, imagine we took a yeast slurry and pulverized the
cells (say in a blender with a little sand added) and then filtered out most
of the cell material by rinsing through a coarse filter (coffee filter).
The liquid we collected would contain the yeast enzyme invertase. (this was
first performed by Marcelin Berthelot in 1860), and this enzyme is capable
of splitting table sugar (sucrose) into free glucose and fructose molecules.
It would be a simple matter to add table sugar concentrations to this
extract and then, after a time, measure the amount of glucose+fructose
using Clinitest or other similar means. We could then calculate
a rate of production per unit time (v0). If increasing the sucrose
concentration further had only very little impact on the rate, that we would
be measuring v0 ~= V, the maximal velocity.
As a second experiment imagine using the same unknown enzyme
concentration as above, but only adding enough enzyme so that the rate
of product formation was half of the maximum.
Then v0 = V/2 = V / (1 + Km/[A]) , so [A] = Km. The Michaelis
constant, Km {= [A]} has been determined for the unknown concentration of
enzyme.
In reality the experimenter doesn't have to be lucky or persistent enough to
select a substrate concentration with v0 = V/2. If for example we reduced
the rate to v0 = 0.31 * V, then at the substrate concentration [A] we know
that v0 = 0.31*V = V * (1/(1+Km/[A])). So 0.31 = 1/(1+Km/[A]) or
Km = [A] * (1 - 0.31)/0.31 or Km = 2.225 [A] in this particular case.
Graphical Methods:
There are several well known methods of plotting quantities related to
enzyme product rates and substrate concentration which are meant to result
in linear plots rather the y = x/(1+x) curve we are dealing with. When
trying to obtain a constant from experimental data it's always nice to be
able to pick off a slope or an intercept as containing the relevant result
rather than deal with a tedious curve fitting procedure. The need for these
hand plotting methods are less necessary now that computers are capable of
reducing and fitting the data immediately, but still it is somehow
satisfying to view the results of an experiment and form a linear relation
from the collected data. It immediately says that something is very right
about the theory and the experimental method. In any case these plotting
methods are so common in enzyme kinetics that it would be difficult to pick
up a book without being immediately confronted with the issue.
The basic equation which related v0 to [A] is eqn 13/
v0 = V * [A] / (Km + [A]) = V / ( 1 + (Km/[A]))
A Burk-Lineweaver plot graphs x = 1/[A] vs y = 1/v0 .
Substituting into 13/ we get
x = (V/Km) * y - 1 / Km
The x intercept (y=0) is at x = -1/Km, the y intercept at 1/V and the slope
is Km/V.
A Hanes or Woolf plot graph x = [A] vs y = [A]/v0
Substitution into 13/ gives
x = y*V - Km
with x intercept at -Km, y intercept at Km/V, and slope of 1/V .
An Eadie-Hofstee plot graphs x = v0/[A] vs y = v0 so
x = (-1/Km) * y + V/Km
with x intercept it V/Km, y intercept at V, and slope of -Km.
These three are just different similar means of creating a (hopefully)
straight-line plot with experimental data of rate of catalysis and substrate
concentration as the experimental variables. I won't bother to go into
further detail on these plotting methods in this ASCII medium, except to say
that the method of Ahrrenius plot will be explored in a bit of detail when
we later examine the relevance of temperature to the rate of catalysis.
So far we have studied the rate of catalysis versus substrate concentration
in the simple zero-order case in which a single substrate molecule is
catalytically transformed into a single product molecule. Despite all the
algebra the result is simple. To get a higher rate for a given amount of
enzyme under fixed conditions of temperature, pH etc, you can add more
substrate. The rate {v0) increases almost linearly till the substrate
concentration gets up around Km. Beyond that concentration the increase in
the production rate slows significantly and eventually hits a maximum at v0
= V = k2*[E0] (and V equals two times the rate at [A] = Km, btw).
Next time we'll examine the more relevant case of enzymes with two
substrates.
-S
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:52:52 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Barley flour, the wet
G'day all
well first i like to add to this post
<Scott.Morgan@aus.sun.com>
Subject: barley flour
Heres something that Graham Sanders has not even had
experience with.
HAs anyone had any experience with Barley Flour. Found some
in a
healthfood store and wondered about it.<<<,
Now my experience with wheat flour has left me very impressed.
The wheat flour has left a very nice "wheat bite" in my weissen
(that I have not gotten any other way), almost as good as a little
lactic mash.
Know I could experiment with 50% barley flour (and truth be
known will probably give it a shot with a Pilsner soon), so to
test the knowledgables out there
- What would be the effect on flavour of a Pilsner if I use
50% barley flour. lets assume I go through the gluten and
protein rests.
Now on a side not with Scotts posting, I intend to speak
privately with the lad. First rule when talking to these yanks
"dont tell them what you dont know". Scott I will be having
words.
Shout
Graham Sanders
oh
Bloody wet is f'en early and giving me the right royal Sh+ts.
Hasn't stopped for nearly three weeks, and doesn't look like
stopping til March. We could be in for one of those "Big Wet".
Bloody hell, I even have tadpoles swimming arround the
backyard in between the grass. Toilet sitting next year goin'to
be dangerous. Gential grabbing frogs are going to be
everywhere.
Wonder how those 'survivor' are coping. Bet they have never
seen it rain like that.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:56:35 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Fwd: ah the children of the world
G'Day All
WHAT HAVE I DONE???????
All of a sudden, its seems everyone wants a piece of little 'ol me.
I just can't understand why. I'm following religiously the new
bible for the HBD (hey I received two copies of the bloody thing)
and still those damn yanks are after me. I would almost treat it
seriously, but we must remember that it only comments for a
people who are experts at stuffing things up, hey they
can't even do a simple thing like voting.
But I know the Europeans still love me. I have my Servo Myces
and much thanks goes to that thoughtful chap who sent it. I
would mention his name but i fear what the yanks might do to
him. I have formulated a theory and now will conduct rigorous
Nth Qld type experiments to see if I can disprove such. And
even thou I did receive an actual Bavarian Passport (people
it is an impressive document - I am going to have to revise our
own passport) I must decline your offer to join the Common
Market. I dont think you could handle the quantum leap to our
utopia.
So I ignore their childish jibes and concentrate on more
important Nth Qld matters. Now the wet has truly set it up here.
Been averaging a good inch most days the last two weeks (and
the monsoon hasn't even arrived). Little town south of here got
9 inches in six hours, so my poor brew room is on hold til it lifts.
Still I have got a temporary roof on it, and will use it to knock
up my Crystal Wit beer this weekend, lactic mash and all.
But there is a disaster up here, My world beer domination plans
are set back at least a year. There will be no Longing for a
Longan Lambic this year, The crop is a disaster. the tree is barer
than a nympho in the footballs team locker room. And there will
be no mango spirits this year - that tree barely has enough
to feed the family. (I wonder if the CIA has something to do
with this)
Oh bugger it I will comment to the children out there children
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: The Shout Effect
Thomas Klepfer wrote of "The Shout":
>In a worst case scenario, this
>could possibly fling our Australian friends out into deep space.
Some of
>them are rather light-headed, making them easier to fling.
Beware "The
>Shout"!
Perhaps if we coil a few feet of copper tubing around Graham
and attach it
to the sink, we can reduce the effects of "The Shout" <<<<<
I've told you all before, we all know Nth Qld is recognised as the
brewing centre of the world. Everything radiates from God's
own Country, be it the loving energy that I impart on all yeast the
world over (go forth and multiply ) (thats why yeast settle on
the far side of the bottle - the shout effect indeed) or this need
the world has of needing to know what plans I have in the
brewing world - God its tough being a Martyr - hey saint Arnold.
and this
From: Sean Macleod <sean@bankwest.com.au>
Subject: Off-Topic: but quite funny :)
>
> NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE<<<
As Monthy Python says "Say no more!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Rod gots me worried
From: Rod Prather <rodpr@iquest.net>
Subject: Moss grows on the North side of the Beer bottle
I Besides, I usually
carry a compass when I plan on getting lost in the woods. It just
so happened
that my Compass had too many homebrews that night. My
question is, does moss grow on the south side in Australia and
does the yeast grow on the other side of the bottle?<<<
Its a bit of a contradiction - he plans to get lost. But Rod use
the Shout Effect. Watch the movement of yeast and walk in the
other direction. Thats straight to me - oh shit what am I'm saying
- otherway mate - OTHER WAY.
Now a little correction
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham@antennaproducts.com>
Subject: off topic:but quite funny
Sean, Must be hard living in and being a citizen of the
"ARM PIT" of the
world. Been there, didn't like it, don't need it. ... DON'T MESS
WITH TEXAS.<<<<
Strange i don't even recall anyone here wanting you to stay.
notice your application was outrightly refused for a permit to
visit Nth Qld. (the Public servant has been promoted for his
good work) . On a side note I find Texans funny, everything is
bigger, larger, better there, til they come to Aus, and find out we
have stations bigger than Texas itself. Ongoing joke to a
Texan when they see a roo and say "what's that?---- Dont you
have grasshoppers over there!!!!
Shout
Graham Sanders
Oh cant part til I put Dr. P back in his cage.
>>From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp@pivo.w.se>
Subject: Reprimanding Graham but recognising his talents
(off topic)
Graham wrote some pretty vitriolic stuff:
> I quote from 'Moral American for Beginners'
> Chapter one page 16
>
You have admitted in the past mate "i'm always right". Listen
carefully "I quote" after all this is the new world standard.
>>>You wouldn't think that a guy that has sat in front of an
open oven door in the Queensland heat, turning his brain into
the consistancy of an over ripe custard apple would still
possess such predictive powers.<<<
Yeh frightening isn't it!!!!!!
>>Ignorant? Who says I'm ignorant? Hell, I'll have you know
I've been to College......Electoral College.<<<<
With you there mate. Did you know the USA doesn't
even have an Independent Electoral Commission of any kind.
No wonder its soo corrupt I recon all election there now need
to be monitored by the U.N. - they need it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:56:36 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Fwd: Barley flour, the wet
G'day all
well first i like to add to this post
<Scott.Morgan@aus.sun.com>
Subject: barley flour
Heres something that Graham Sanders has not even had
experience with.
HAs anyone had any experience with Barley Flour. Found some
in a
healthfood store and wondered about it.<<<,
Now my experience with wheat flour has left me very impressed.
The wheat flour has left a very nice "wheat bite" in my weissen
(that I have not gotten any other way), almost as good as a little
lactic mash.
Know I could experiment with 50% barley flour (and truth be
known will probably give it a shot with a Pilsner soon), so to
test the knowledgables out there
- What would be the effect on flavour of a Pilsner if I use
50% barley flour. lets assume I go through the gluten and
protein rests.
Now on a side not with Scotts posting, I intend to speak
privately with the lad. First rule when talking to these yanks
"dont tell them what you dont know". Scott I will be having
words.
Shout
Graham Sanders
oh
Bloody wet is f'en early and giving me the right royal Sh+ts.
Hasn't stopped for nearly three weeks, and doesn't look like
stopping til March. We could be in for one of those "Big Wet".
Bloody hell, I even have tadpoles swimming arround the
backyard in between the grass. Toilet sitting next year goin'to
be dangerous. Gential grabbing frogs are going to be
everywhere.
Wonder how those 'survivor' are coping. Bet they have never
seen it rain like that.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:00:44 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel@mindspring.com>
Subject: CO2
Scott wrote :
>Our outside temperature is near freezing now,
Yes, we know. You said that when you said the CO2 pressure guage read
500 psig. That is the vapor pressure of CO2 over liquid at freezing. At
room temperature the guage will read about 850 psi. Remember that in a
CO2 bottle the CO2 is in liquid form as long as the temperature is below
87 F (at which temperature the guage will read about 1100 psi.). Above
87 the pressure will be proportional to the amount of gas and the
temperature. Below 87 the reading depends only on the temperature and
you cannot tell how full the bottle is by looking at the pressure gauge.
Weighing is the only reliable way to know how much gas remains. An
approximate determination can be made by placing the bottle in the
freezer and leaving it there until it is well chilled. Now remove it
into a somewhat humid room. Condensation will form and perhaps freeze.
As the bottle warms up, the parts not in contact with cold CO2 liquid
will warm faster and the condensate will melt and/or evaporate so you
will be able to see the level of the liquid. This is somewhat awkward
but a neat trick which was posted here years ago by I remember not whom
so I can't give credit where it is due.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:39:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Gary Melton <meltongl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brewing with Steam?
Marc Donnelly asked for links concerning brewing with steam. Brewing
Techniques had a good article several years ago that is still on line
at
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/jones.html
Later,
Bud
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:04:49 -0800
From: "Frank E. Kalcic" <fkalcic@prodigy.net>
Subject: Natural gas burners
Has anyone seen an economically priced burner that using natural gas will
put out over 150,000 btu?
Thanks
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:38:17 -0600
From: "Steinbrunner, Jim (JE)" <steinbrunnerje@dow.com>
Subject: Gambrinus
Bush and Gore can forget it; here is our true leader; a man larger than
life!
http://www.infomagic.net/~martince/hbgmbrns.htm
Jim Steinbrunner, Loyal Serf
Midland, MI
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:28:34 -0600
From: Doug Hurst <DougH@theshowdept.com>
Subject: thanks, scientific method
First I would like to say that I am enourmously grateful to the HBD janitors
for a quick and efficient change over. Only in it's absence did I come to
realize how important this forum is to my bewing knowledge (and daily
slacking at work). Thank you.
Steven Alexander wrote:
"If someone posts that "doing 'X' makes my beers better" you can be sure
that in time others will try to confirm or deny the causal relationship
under other brewing conditions. It may turn out the original post has
limited applicability or incorrectly interpreted cause, but such a post
should be read as a call for confirmation of a questionable hypothesis and
not as fact.
BTW - most pro-experiments test a hypothesis where the author suspects a
particular and interesting result. It's the nature of any research that
effort is expended where suspicions and limited observations occur, and we
should thank, not punish, the good folks who bring these limited
observations and guesses to our attention. If nothing else they make us
think."
Here, Here.
What I love about this hobby is that it is part science and part art/craft.
Sometimes I think people get caught up in the art side and forget about true
scientific method. One thing that I think should be remembered is that
scientific theories are only that if they are repeatable and disprovable.
That is, theories can and should be tested for validity. Too often people
say that X is a fact when X happens every time. This is not so. All that
can be said is that X has occured every time and will probably occur again.
Assuming correct test methodology, a result of Y when X was expected calls
the theory into question. What I'm failing to say is that the great thing
about science is it's skepticism and ability to question itself and change
if a test should contradict a previous theory.
That is one of the many things that makes this forum so valuable. It allows
all of us to see what others do, try it ourselves, argue about the results
and try it again. Hopefully we then come to have at least a small bit
better understanding of what we are doing/what's going on when we brew.
Brew On!
Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:54:31 -0000
From: Anthony Torrez <perpacity@hotmail.com>
Subject: Cornie help
I just purchased some corny kegs and am fairly new this, in fact
I dont even have a CO2 tank yet. Now I hear about people using cornies as
secondaries and cutting off the dip-tube so as not to suck up any yeast. I
was wondering what the result would be if you left the full length tube
intact, and after a reasonable secondary fermentation (2-3 weeks), if one
could just siphon off a glass or two (maybe more?) of very sedimented beer,
and essentially remove the sediment from the beer. It seems like it'd work.
Anybody out there have any experience/comments on this idea which has
probably been tried before.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:44:22 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay@ottawa.com>
Subject: Anyone using the mashmate?
Anyone out there using one of these :
http://home.att.net/~JackSue/
and would care to comment?
Looks pretty interesting.
cheers,
-alan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:28:28 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens@sprint.ca>
Subject: Calcium carbonate in Brett medium
So now that my ISP can find you again, I get back online to find there's a
controversy about a guy named Sean sending the Independence Revocation.
Different Sean. This Sean also received it the other day, thought a minute
about sending it to hbd, then chickened out.
I don't have access to any notes right now, being in mid-move, but I think
the answer to Fred's question about the insolubility of calcium carbonate in
Brettanomyces medium is that no, 0.5% does not dissolve.
I remember some comment about grinding the CaCO3.xH20 finely and it being a
real pain to observe the colonies from below because the agar is cloudy, and
later you get clear zones around the colonies.
For liquid medium I would still grind it finely, and you will have to swirl
up the contents of the flask regularly to try allow the base to react with
the acid as it forms.
Sean Richens
srichens.spamsucks@sprint.ca
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3485, 11/23/00
*************************************
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