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HOMEBREW Digest #3510
HOMEBREW Digest #3510 Fri 22 December 2000
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY:
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Contents:
Krauesening questions (Pat Casey)
carbon filters seething with deadly bacteria ("Richard & Laura")
Cultural Differences (craftbrewer)
hells bells ("Stephen Taylor")
Question and comments (Petr Otahal)
Frozen yeast (rwcos)
Fruity Tooty Tony ("Phil & Jill Yates")
Re: READING is fundamental (Chad Clancy)
RE:cleaning corny kegs ("Walter H. Lewis III")
Mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
Carbon filter bacteria ("Todd M. Snyder")
Happy Holidays - Can't we all just get along ? ("Jeff Woods")
MCAB grain; and content (Joel Plutchak)
Where in the hell? and thanks! (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
RE: Filter bacteria; mash in vs. dough in; now, now! (LaBorde, Ronald)
Suck and Cut (Richard Foote)
My first lager ("Tom Rutkowski")
High-tech homebrewing in orbit, anyone? (Jim Adwell)
Re: Recipe Challenge (Demonick)
IBU/HBU confusion ("Steve Blanchard")
Happy Hanuka ("Paul Niebergall")
Dry hopping & content ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
beerstone (ensmingr)
Welcome to Lauter Tun Flow! (John Palmer)
CO2 volumes ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:51:47 +1100
From: Pat Casey <patcasey@iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Krauesening questions
I would like to krauesen my bottled beer. As I am not in continuous
production of the one beer, krauesening with pitched wort is not really
feasible. However it would be interesting to try krauesening a pilsner
with an IPA or vice versa if I could get the timing right.
The alternative seems to be to freeze 10 per cent of the original
pitched wort to add back later for bottling. To see if this would work I
made up 600ml of 1045 SG malt extract wort, pitched it with scavenged
Saflager yeast from secondary fermentation (about 1 cm in the bottom of
a 330 ml bottle), and froze it in a PET bottle which was squeezed to
remove the air and to allow for expansion of the frozen wort.
After 12 days in the freezer I let it thaw a bit, then stuck an air lock
in it and let it go. From when it completely thawed it took about thirty
hours to start bubbling in the air lock. Once under way, the bubbling
was steady but never vigorous, petering out after about six days with
still the occasional bubble when I threw it out today on the seventh.
Despite the 30 degree C heat of the last days it still tasted OKish, or
at least not off.
Obviously not all the yeast would survive the freezer, but given the
heat and the volumes of wort and slurry, I expected a more vigorous
fermentation - yes an ale yeast would have been better but I had none
handy.
So some questions:
- what is the approximate survival rate of frozen yeast, and is this
time dependent?
-would the survival rate be sufficient to make the krausening
worthwhile? ie it is not simply wort priming.
- what does freezing do to wort, pitched or not ?
- would yeast that died in the freezer have an impact on taste, or would
this be outweighed by the alleged taste benefits of krauesening?
- what stage after pitching would be a good time to draw of the 10 per
cent to freeze it?
I would be grateful for any answers, comments, suggestions etc. drawn
from either experience, theory or both.
Pat Casey
PS The idea of the "cross-krauesen" only occurred while writing this.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:53:56 -0700
From: "Richard & Laura" <dromedary@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: carbon filters seething with deadly bacteria
Greetings all,
In an attempt to provide this forum with "content," I offered the recent
post (with actual data) about bacterial growth in carbon water filters. My
intent was to prevent anyone from being afraid to use a carbon filter out of
fear of introducing a new source of bacterial contamination into the brewing
process. I was initially hesitant to use a carbon filter for just this
reason. But, once I read the results of the studies done on the filters (see
my recent post), I
decided to use the filter. And, I'm glad I did. My beer tastes better.
However, I never meant to suggest that a carbon filter would somehow
sterilize your tap water. If you would boil the water anyway, then boil it
when you use a carbon filter too.
And, for those (two) of you who sent private
email informing me that one actually has to BOIL WATER to make beer, well
thanks.
Glad to know that. Who says the HBD isn't about humor?
Again, I apologize for my previous lack of clarity. Don't hesitate to use a
carbon filter as one of your brewing tools.
Salud!
Ricardo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:37:55 +1100
From: craftbrewer@telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: Cultural Differences
G'Day All
Well the wars have well and truly broken out,
but has it really?
Now i ask my new best mate(s) if they will allow this post. Will it
contain a beer related post. Well no, thats the last you'll hear
on the subject. Does it contain information relevant to all HBDers,
well definitely yes a must read. That includes YOU.
Now what is going on here is clearly a cultural thing, and like all
things understand it better and there's nothing really in it. Now in
any cultural disgress, I will make generic statements about a
people, yes there are exceptions, but also 'if the shoe fits'.
Read it for what it is. There is nothing hidden here. But
understanding the unknown makes the known easier to
understand.
Now if a chinese fellow came on this digest we would forgive him
if he couldn't spell, or if he used a word wrong - compensate, or
said something not quite right - let it ride. In other words we
respect his culture (even if its weird). But for some reason if its
from any English speaking country then thats goes right out the
window. No - standards are the same in all these countries. I'm
afraid people thats not true, not by a long shot.
What you have seen here over the last few weeks is a very
Australian thing. Any Oz will tell you what it is. (now I'm trying my
hardest not to use slang in this whole post and not trigger the
corporate filters in America but there are no other words to
describe this) Its called "taking the piss out of someone".
Lets make that TPOS.
This is so deeply engrained into the Aus character we will not
we are doing it til basically someone pulls us up. And even then
we may not hear it and continue. Its goes even deeper. Most
Aussies instinctively insult each other in their daily conversation.
friends are called words that Americans wouldn't even use against
their worst enemy. Insults, putting people down, is so second
nature that we even type it. Now call it a legacy of our convict
past, (I blame the pomps personally). Now the pomps invented it,
but we have refined it. For example, a certain 'Aleman' from the
UK is posting regularly lately. If i call him "A whinging Pommie
Bastard" I'll would bet London to a brick he would not be upset.
Instead he would come straight back at me with something like
"Typical Australian Yobbo"
Now take this one step further. It is just second nature that
mates will TPOS out of other mates for almost anything. Be a bit
late, forget something, pass an insult, in fact no excuse needed.
it just happens. Further in a group you can have little wars break
out. You TPOS out of me, I come straight back at you and so
forth. This form of teasing can last years. Threads of TPOS can
actually last a lifetime. eg be it living in Nth Qld or making Rice
lagers. Infact its very common to take something said to you and
use it as a hook, like your own personal signature.
Now I have seen old men TPOS over something that has
happened when they were teenagers, it lasted that long. But
here's the thing about it - ITS ALL IN FUN. at least it is to us.
Now within the confines of Australia this is fine, but we can bore
of it too. So when new blood come in well he is just fair game.
A new friend is always a target. How he reacts determines if he's
your mate, or a whinger and not worth knowing.
Now I say again - this is cultural, it just happens, even in Mail
and letters. There is no malicious or intent.
But, there are certain people that really leave themselves open
for a bit of TPOS. Pomps are no real fun, they know, Non English
people dont understand. South Africans you cant insult, but
Americans (i'm sorry to say) are just prime game for this sort of
thing. Not being rude, but they react sooo beautifully to a bit of
TPOS. Just like an kid who teases, if you react the teaser loves
it.
Now unfortunately, Australians don't take life too seriously, if you
like enjoy the moment. But Americans seem to take everything
so serious, especially a need for success and acceptance, a sort
image thing. Fun will come latter on in life. Australian are take us
like we am. Now these difference of opinion makes you prime
targets of TPOS. Its irresistibly. I've done it to ever yank I have
met, you just can't help it. the problem is Americans can't see
whats happening, a case for the forest for the trees. this is not
an insult, it how the world perceives you, and how you act at
lot of the time.
So to Steve in particular, "there's nothing in it" We have been
TPOS out of you. Do we apologise for it. Well yes, What Phil
wrote is about as close as you'll get. Australian take a lot of stock
to a persons character by how he reacts to TPOS. React badly
well, we feel sorry for you, but we dont apologise normally for
our actions. Its how we measure a man.
Do we go over the top - YEP. We understand your culture all
too well, bombarded every day with it. It would be nice if you
understood ours every now and then.
Shout
Graham Sanders
oh
I can speak with authority on this. My ex was American. I dont
know how many relatives I insulted, caused grief, never talked
to me again or just plain hated me. And I tried not to do the wrong
thing. For some reason there was no give on their side.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:00:38 +1100
From: "Stephen Taylor" <stephentaylor@one.net.au>
Subject: hells bells
What in the hell is a hells, is that correct, i have to buy afew books,or is
it helles, any one should be allowed to be ignorant, i love to brew , that
is the limit of my education & i look to formats such as this to improve my
beers and that is all , i dont give a rats bottom whatever is posted as long
as eventully my beer improves, my pleasure improves in life at what ever is
printed here as i feel i am with kindred spirits as i allways throw myself
totally in to my hobbies, i feel we are all lunatics together, and whatver
our angle of approach it is bacically about beer, and improving it and we
will always have more in common then we know , so as someone said lets cut a
bit of slack, argue as much as we like, even get the sh*ts with each other ,
but i hope never lose sight of what it is all about, the Best Hobby in the
world, brewing beer that only we get to drink,& loving it, spreading the joy
, so to speak, or is it the fact i dont go back to work until feb
(holidays) and am full of drink,? from our break up party,great day,summer
is here, or both, i think ,so brothers lets advance the cause as good
brewers, (something i hope to be one day.Maybe, Perhaps, Hopefully,)
Merry Christmas to you who it is politically correct to say it to and best
of luck to all for the New Year. S. Taylor, newcastle in OZ.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:33:33 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Question and comments
I have questions for all.
I brewed a mash stout (my second all grain effort)
The recipe:
45L batch OG:1.044 IBU:~45
5kg (72%) Franklin Malt (Basically a larger malt)
1kg (14%) Roasted Barley
1kg (14%) Flaked Barley
70g Northern Brewer (9.8%) 80min boil
Single infusion mash at 67-68C (~153-154F) for an hour and a half
at roughly 3L per kg of grain. Did have a few lautering problems, it went
very slowly to begin with and I backflushed with sparge water a few times,
but in the end it flowed well enough.
I split the batch with Dave, a mate of mine who helped me brew it, and he
kegged five litres of his half.
Now the problem is that the beer that we bottled pours with a nice head but
the head disappears fairly quickly.
Yet on the kegged portion, which is nitrogenated, the beer pours with a
very creamy head which lasts all the way to the bottom of the glass.
Is there such a big difference between nitrogen bubbles and CO2?
I was expecting that his nitro version would have a longer lasting head,
but I also expected that the flaked barley would help the head last longer
on the bottled version.
The other question is, would it have helped if I had performed a protein rest?
Appart from that the stout is fantastic better than any of my best extract
efforts, except my coffee stout which is different but equally good.
Cheers
Pete
And for the page-downers: The rest of this post is non beer related, so
use that key (except that it isn't a page worth so you might miss the top
of the next post).
**********
Paul Niebergall:
>Shall I go on?
Paul, I believe that you have many wonderful things to contribute, but if
you dont write it in simple terms how can we hope to understand you. Im
sure there was someone out there who understood what you had to say, but I
wasn't one of 'em. You have to make easier for us simple folk (those
without a calculus degree) to understand what you are getting at, and not
baffle us with equations.
**********
Steve A,
Dont take the Aussie posts to heart they're just stirrin' ya up a bit.
Thats what Aussie's are realy good at, and the more you bite the more they
go on, I can see how in the end it can get upsetting. The easiest way is
to just ignore it. If you dont put fuel on the fire it'll burn itself out.
Eventually!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:55:53 -0500
From: rwcos <rwcos@dmv.com>
Subject: Frozen yeast
I received some frozen yeast in an order yesterday, so I use it or
not??/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:09:18 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates@acenet.com.au>
Subject: Fruity Tooty Tony
Tony Barnsley, the man they call "The Scurrilous One" is going to be marched
straight to the litigation courts.
How dare he use my name and suggest I forced him to put strawberries in his
wheat beer!!
I did nothing of the sort.
Am I completely surrounded by idiots?
I've got Eric wearing tutus in a Michigan winter and Tony pouring
strawberries into his wheat beer.
What we were talking about Tony was the inclusion of raspberries, not
strawberries!
But having now corrected you, I'll have to add the comment that raspberries
were not such a good idea either.
Well it depends on what you like.
I did make a raspberry wheat beer but it was a little too tart for my
liking, such is the nature of raspberries.
But the peach wheat is entirely a different matter. I know Doc Pivo said he
couldn't taste them. And Graham Sanders (who is yet to publish his thoughts
on the beer) reckoned the peach flavour was only just at the taste
threshold. But that is what I was wanting to achieve.
It is my opinion that peach flavour compliments very nicely the banana and
clove (traditional description) of the flavour esters produced by hefeweizen
yeast. My intention was to achieve an after taste that was almost
indiscernible.
So what do you do?
You go and pour a tonne of strawberries into your brew and then try and
blame me for the resulting horror beer which even the bacteria refuse to
consume!
You're going straight to the courts my boy!!
Cheers
Phil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:24:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Chad Clancy <chadclancy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: READING is fundamental
I agree with Stephen that his criticisms have been
extrapolated way beyond their original intent. My
read on his comments indicates that he is merely
asking that the posters follow the HBD guidelines.
This is nothing more than the jaintors themselves ask
of any poster although they have also indicated in the
past that we should police ourselves as they don't
want to be in the business of censoring posts.
One could prove Stephen's point by compiling all of
the posts originating from the land of oz for the past
three months or so and see what you come up with.
Would it be something that even a minority of HBD
readers would appreciate? I would hope that such a
compilation would at least have a slant towards
homebrewing.
The last thing I want to do is discuourage anyone from
making a post but I don't think that its too much to
ask that we read the HBD mission statement once in a
while to see if the majority of our posts are in line
with the basis for this digest.
=====
Chad M. Clancy o---o---o---o
Modjeski and Masters, Inc. / \ / \ / \ / \
Mechanicsburg, PA -----o---o---o---o---o-----
| |
\~~~~~~~~~~~~~/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:22:31 -0500
From: "Walter H. Lewis III" <wlewis@alliedlogistics.com>
Subject: RE:cleaning corny kegs
My homebrew club just scored 300 cornies from an un-named source at a
fantastic price. Dirty! Used! Full of who know what! When it came time
to clean the 20 I picked up I call an old source I had used in the past.
Their BUSINESS is reconditioning cornies. The owner told me that an hour
soak with hot water and Cascade with bleach -- yes! bleach -- would take
everything out! Even root beer taste and oder.
While I may open a debate on bleach/SS again I will give sone personal
experience. I used to sell lemonade at fairs and carnivals. I used
cornies to transport and serve a sugar water mixture I used in
preparation. At the end of the season I would put about a cup of clorox
in each cornie and fill with water. It would sit there for 6-8
months!!!!! I never had any problems in 10 years.
Walt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:34:53 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam@unc.edu>
Subject: Mash hopping
I would use 75g of Saaz (or you could chuck in 100g--no
harm) to replace your 15 minute and 0 minute additions.
That should make your not-really-a-pilsner pretty damn
tasty. What's your water profile like...just curious.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:24:29 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder@buffalo.edu>
Subject: Carbon filter bacteria
I had posted:
>1.7 million yeast going head to head against less than 10,000 bacteria
>is going to be a one sided battle. It's >174 to 1, and yeast multiply a
>whole lot quicker than bacteria
Alan replied: "Actually, most bacteria will divide much more rapidly
than our little yeast
buddies. Bacterial generation times are often on the order of tens of
minutes while yeast take hours. "
After opening a book I realized I was wrong on this point. Bacteria are
capable of growing faster than yeast. Thank you Alan.
Todd Snyder
Buffalo, NY
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:42:57 -0500
From: "Jeff Woods" <woodsj@us.ibm.com>
Subject: Happy Holidays - Can't we all just get along ?
I'm mostly a lurker because it seems that my posts don't generate
a lot of interest and responses. That's OK I look forward to HBD
every day. The spirit of the season compells me to comment on
the recent sniping.
It's the holiday season and read what's going on in the HBD.
Everyone needs to lighten up a little and allow for the variety
of homebrewing interests and motivations. Everyone brews
and subscribes to HBD for their own personal reasons. There
should be plenty of latitude for all types of posts.......humorous,
theoretical, newbies, art vs. science, whatever. Personally (flame
suit on) I don't go much for the complex scientific formulas but I
know that if ever needed I can search the archives for reference.
I enjoy the posts from Oz, Michigan, Texas, and the rest of the
world. We need to be more tolerant of others viewpoints. We're
all united by a unique hobby that is not shared by the masses.
Now for content - I like beer and brew my own. I use water,
malted barley grains, hops, and yeast.
Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:14:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak@ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: MCAB grain; and content
At the MCAB conference in St. Louis, some sort of grain was
handed out to attendees, and although I spent so much time, er,
socializing that all that was left were crumbs, I did manage to
make it home with a split, half-full box of it. Well, I'm finally
gearing up to brew a beer where the grain would be useful, but I've
forgotten exactly what was provided. Was it the fabled under-
modified malt, or "just" your run-of-the-grain-mill Moravian
malt? (I assume a protein rest is necessary for the former,
and not for the latter?)
As for the issue of content, I told myself I'd stay out of it,
but simply can't resist...
In HBD #3509, somebody said (edited):
>Please replace the words "comedic talent" with "self serving scientific
> dialog". Then take a deep look inward and you may eventually get the
>idea. The biggest problem is one of ATTITUDE. I (and I assume most
>others here) had enough lectures in school. [...]Please replace the
>words "comedic talent" with "self serving scientific dialog". Then take
>a deep look inward and you may eventually get the idea.
I think that's exactly what's wrong with the HBD today. Too
many people (who obviously didn't let those lectures on appropriate
behavior sink in) who see it as some sort of garbage can for anything
they can toss toward it. Truth is, it's supposed to be a forum on
brewing. Period. Whether dry scientific posts or more conversational
anecdotes, the topic should be brewing, because that's why the vast
majority of us subscribe, and why a few notable people spend lots of
time, effort, and money to keep it running. It's not some sort of
bad Internet "Open Mic" forum.
Joel Plutchak <plutchak@uiuc.edu>
P.S. Steve A., I'm looking forward to the final chapter(s) of the
enzyme stuff, even though I find it so dry I have to have a homebrew
or three to help wash it down. And trust me, I'm not complaining!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 07:23:11 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Where in the hell? and thanks!
Is Al Korzonas?
I saw him at Real Ale and he was gracious enough to judge my yearly
BrewRats Club comp but I never see him around here anymore...
Come Al! Brewers with the information and skill you have need to be
here... Come on Back!
I would also like to take this time to give my yearly thanks and
remind everyone of what they get for free around here.
It was 4 years ago I think that I thought of taking over the HBD from
the strangling date raping hands of the AOB. Instead I suckered Pat
Babcock into running it.
So let us give our thanks to Pat (and Karl who has also been scarce
lately) for running the HBD and taking the time to even host it from
home. Keep those donations rolling in and make sure you spread the
word of this great resource.
Hell even take the time to email Pat and Karl to say thanks.
We all need a little thanks from time to time.
On a final note... Where oh where did Lynne from St. Pats go to? I
thought her skin was a little thicker. Lynne also had some great info
brewing wise. She also was kind enough to donate some prizes to the
BrewRats homebrew club annual RatFest and we thank her for that.
Enough Babbling!
PLAID ON BROTHER PAT!
C'ya!
-Scott
note: no supermonkeys were used or harmed in this post
=====
"Life without Plaid sucks"
http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:45:37 -0600
From: rlabor@lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Filter bacteria; mash in vs. dough in; now, now!
From: "Pat Babcock" <babcockp@mediaone.net>
>..I've been using my filters for years with never a thought to this, and
nary
>a problem - now you've got me all paranoid!...
My filter housing was suck on so tight I could not remove the charcoal
filter, so finally after a year, I bought that plastic wrench and then I was
able to easily open it. I smelled around the large 'O' ring and it stank in
the nose! So now, after cleaning and sanitizing, I remove the new filter
element, shake, shake and set out to dry between each brew session. I also
have no way to know if this does any good.
>... I now have to read each and every post coming into the queue
>rather than simply recognizing the contributor's name. So much for free
>time...
Then let's all be grateful for the demise of NOKOMARIE!! ;>))
Ron La Borde
Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor@lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:08:52 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote@mindspring.com>
Subject: Suck and Cut
Hi All,
Made it by the censors.
A note to Paul N. re. his recent post of the scientific persuasion...
Please stop the insanity! I can't take it anymore! and...
"It's sucking my will to live!" -- Garth Algar
Sorry this is not beer related. Oh, okay, how 'bout this?
I'd like to know how to get that pronounced chocolate flavor, w/o the use
of actual chocolate, the likes of which appears in Old Rasputin, to name
one example. Am I using the wrong chocolate malt?
Ideas/suggestions/observations? There, beer related--whew!
Happy Holidays!
Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling (almost done--yea!)
Murrayville, GA
P.S. monkey see, monkey do
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:20:57 -0600
From: "Tom Rutkowski" <tomr@communicationsmgmt.com>
Subject: My first lager
If everyone can take their minds off of poor Steve, I have a brewing related
question. I am planning to brew up my first lager, but I'm not sure what
temps to keep it at. The White Labs German Lager package recommends 50 to
55 degrees. Should I stick to this target? Only for the initial
fermentation, or for the entire lagering time? What happens if temp is 45
degrees instead of 50?
I've got a 2 inch thick foam insulation box that I keep up against the wall
in my unheated garage. The wall is concrete and is against a hillside, so
the temp inside the box is a constant 48 degrees +/- 1-2 degrees depending
on air temp inside the garage. Think of the "Son of the Fermentation
Chiller" w/o electronics and no back side. Will this temp, for both primary
and secondary fermentation, make a good Marzen? Assume good sanitation,
ingredients, practices, etc.
BTW, I value this digest because it allows people with expertise in many
different areas that have applicability to brewing to share their knowledge
with everyone else. Sometimes, as in the case of Steve's enzyme post, I
can't follow everything, but these technical posts allow everyone to
increase their understanding of the different aspects of the brewing
process.
Thomas J. Rutkowski
Madison, WI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:22:20 -0500
From: Jim Adwell <jimala2@ptd.net>
Subject: High-tech homebrewing in orbit, anyone?
>From ABC news online:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/space/2000/12/item20001221103834_1.htm
Scientists develop space ale
Dutch scientists are on their way to cracking one of the most urgent
problems of the space era - how an astronaut can get a decent beer in zero
gravity. The first challenge has been how to get the ale out of the
barrel. Researchers from the Delft University of Technology have spent
three-and-a-half years on the dilemma and now appear to have the ideal
barrel. Britain's New Scientist magazine reports the evolutionary
container has a flexible membrane which contains the beer inside the barrel.
Air is pumped between the barrel wall and the membrane to force the beer
out. The team has tested its invention in zero gravity on Earth and found
the beer plopped neatly out of the tap, floating in identical, ping-pong
ball-sized amounts. However, there is no foamy head, as gas bubbles need
gravity to rise.
Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:48:40 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick@zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Recipe Challenge
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh@nwoca.org>
>"Golden Ale: A crisp, lager-like blonde ale brewed with Vienna malt for
>superior smoothness. Refreshing and brisk, this beer has a sweet, floral
>aroma, and is an excellent introduction to the world of fresh,
>microbrewed beers."
>
>Given this brief information, what recipe would you concoct to best fit
>the description? Include yeast and hops.
I've done a few TettBangers (simple, pils malt based brews, that use
HUGE quantities of homegrown Tettnanger). They are crisp, golden ales
with a floral character.
4 lbs German Pilsen (I like DWC)
4 lbs Vienna (I like DWC)
The DWC pils malt can really stand on its own. You could forget the
Vienna and go with 8 lbs of Pils.
Use low mineral content water. You may add 1 gram of gypsum per
gallon of mash water, so each gallon of water contains about 60 ppm
Ca++.
Mash at a relatively low temperature, 150F for 90 minutes.
Hop with Mt. Hood for bitterness and Tettnanger for flavor/aroma
1 ounce Mt. Hood for 60 minutes, 1 ounce Tettnanger for 30 minutes,
and 1 ounce Tettnanger for 15 minutes. Keep the IBUs at or below 30.
You are aiming for an OG of 1.048, not more than 1.050. Adjust grain
bill accordingly, and dilute before fermentation as necessary.
Ferment for 7-14 days at 68F with Wyeast #1056 Chico ale, for a nice
clean, crisp fermentation. If you want to use a secondary, rack after
7 days.
And, of course, bottle with PrimeTab.
Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152 phone
(206) 782-6766 fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com
FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:05:01
From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard@hotmail.com>
Subject: IBU/HBU confusion
I have been brewing for a while but am still confused over various
recipes/posts that list hop amounts by IBUs or HBUs. Are these two related
to each other and how do I convert IBU?hBU to actual hop weight?? TIA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:09:54 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb@burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Happy Hanuka
O.K. my little monkeys, it is now time for your second lesson. (I know
that I promised to post only once a week, but I have been feeling a bit
randy of late and feel the need to really spew forth).
Part 2 - Numerical Solutions and Grain Bed Parameters:
Last time we developed a three-dimensional flow equation that is the
basis of many groundwater flow models that can be used to simulate
the flow of wort threw a lauter tun.:
d/dX [Kxx dH/dX] + d/dY [Kyy dH/dY] + d/dZ [Kzz dH/dZ] +
W(X,Y,Z,t) = Ss dH/dT (eq 1-1)
Analytical solutions to equation 1-1 are available, but the tend to be
very tedious in derivation and solving. In order to really describe
three-dimensional flow of wort in a lauter system, an iterative
approach commonly referred to as "numerical analysis" can be
performed that solves the equation for many points in the flow
system at once. These points are commonly referred to as nodes.
With the availability of today's modern desktop computing power,
it is possible to simultaneously solve the above equation for up to
a million or more points. (This part really excites me, because I
have a really big and fast machine - hehe).
There are two common numerical methods that are used to solve
problems of this type; the Finite Difference Method (FDM) and the
Finite Element Method (FEM). This is an extremely interesting
concept in higher mathematics, but I will not go into the boring
details, suffice to say the following:
In both FDM and FEM methods one starts with the same partial
differential equation (eq. 1-1) which is discretized in the space
variables X, Y, and Z. And here is the really interesting point *
the derivatives must also be discretized! Can you believe it?
I cant begin to tell you the joyous times that I spent as a graduate
student debating this point with my advisor. Boy, those were the
days. I only wish that I had saved part of the dialog so I could
post it here for all of your enjoyment.
Anyway, the FDM is a discrete representation at a point while FEM is
a discrete representation over an area. Material properties (porosity,
density, and permeability) of the grain bed are defined at discrete
points in FDM. In FEM, a surface is mathematically defined
allowing material properties to be defined throughout the extent.
At this point I think it is prudent to explore some of the material
properties that are used to describe the flow of wort through a grain
bed (these will be very important later when will develop a model that
describes the advective flow concentrations of wort through a lauter
system using the MT3D modeling system):
Advection, or seepage velocity, is the movement of the dissolved
sugars in the wort along with the bulk movement of sparge water
through the lauter system. This transport mechanism depends only
on the properties of the grain bed, and is independent of any chemical
properties of the wort. Hydraulic conductivity, hydraulic gradient,
and effective porosity are all components of advective transport.
Hydraulic conductivity is a measure of the grain bed's ability to
transmit wort.
Hydraulic gradient is the driving force for the wort flow flow and is
expressed as the change in head over the distance the change occurs
(either vertically or horizontally). This determines the magnitude
and direction of wort flow.
Effective porosity is defined as the porosity through which flow
can occur (Fetter, 1993). Therefore, non-interconnected and
dead-end pores are not included in the effective porosity.
Hydrodynamic dispersion is defined as the mixing of sugar molecules
with fresh sparge water and is a function of mechanical dispersion
and molecular diffusion. Overall, dispersive processes cause some
sugar molecules to move faster than the seepage velocity and
others to move slower, thus causing the sugar concentration to
spread out over time. This spreading allows the sugar content of
the wort to move forward more quickly than would be predicted by
advection alone. Because the leading edge of the sugar concentration
front is made up of those molecules that have traveled more quickly
than the seepage velocity, the leading edge becomes more diffuse, but
arrives more quickly than advective processes would predict.
We shall next explore various boundary conditions that are used in
numerical models to help solve the flow equation.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Behold the power of FREEBOOTER
(Any linguists out there care to take that one on?)
Paul N. (a.k.a - Dr. Stevo)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:52:21 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke@merck.com>
Subject: Dry hopping & content
To quote Paul, who was actually quoting Charles:
(Don't you hate it when you miss stuff?!?)
"What kind of thing do any of you use for the 'bag'
when dry hopping? Especially if you're using pellets?"
I'd like to know if anyone uses one of those stainless infusion balls. My
HB shop's got 'em in a 3" diameter with fine wire mesh. I figure they're
good for plugs and *possibly* pellets (fine enough mesh?), but too small in
volume for cones. I'll probably give this a try as I'd feel more
comfortable reusing it than I would reusing a nylon bag (for some insane
reason).
Now this stainless ball seems good for boiling in the kettle and dry hopping
in a keg, but dry-hopping in a carboy is always a bitch. I have no trouble
breaking up the plugs in the muslin bag and shoving them through the 1"
opening in the fermenter's neck, but getting them out without making a mess
can be a chore. Damn! Reason # 372 for going to stainless. Gotta put this
on the list...
While we're on the subject of dry hopping...
For those who dry hop their kegs, how many leave the hops in the beer until
the keg is finished (burp!) vs. dry hopping for a defined period and then
separating the hops from the beer before serving? I also wonder if I could
just place loose hops (plugs or cones) in the keg and use something like a
SureScreen on the dip tube to filter out the hops. This then leads me into
scads of questions I have regarding cask conditioning, but we'll save those
for a day when the posts are either too silly or too dry. Which leads me to
my next point...
Content:
The reason I read the HBD over any other brewing digest, chat, listserv, et.
al. is because majordomo doesn't honor my request to remove me from the list
- only kidding - it's for both the homebrewing content *and* the humor.
This is a community, and unless you are one of the janitors, you have very
little say in who is part of it. So deal with it. As in any community you
will have the serious, the jesters, the lurkers, the loud-mouthed, meek, the
belligerent, need I go on?
The janitors have been very good with letting us moderate ourselves and I
guess that's why they're "janitors" and not "moderators" (though I prefer
the term baby-sitter for the latter). But one thing I have seen here more
than I've seen in other groups is the amount of bitching and moaning. "He's
off-topic", "He's too technical", "He called me this or that", "He's from
NQLD" (OK. I couldn't resist that one ;-) Sound like a bunch of cry-baby
schoolgirls. While I agree that posts should be on topic and non-beer
related posts should be sent to alt.stupid.banter or something, you have to
take each individual here for what they are. Case in point: I have a friend
who I was warned by others to be a pain-in-the-arse (before I befriended
him). I listened to this advice and took him at face value. Yes, he can be
a PITA, but he's still a good friend. You have to do the same here. How
many other friends come with a page down button?!? 'Nuff said. Flame On!
Inspired by Mr. Peed's last post, but sung to the refrain of Proud Mary by
CCR:
Jokers keep on jokin',
Bookworms keep on quotin'
Yes I'm Scrollin'! (scrollin')
Scrollin'! (scrollin')
Scrollin' down your blather!
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"Designs and schemes which work well on paper rarely do so in actual
practice."
PS. Watch out Paul, we monkeys will bite and fling sh*t when provoked ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:48:23 -0500
From: ensmingr@twcny.rr.com
Subject: beerstone
Thanks to the many who responded to my question about
cleaning beerstone from Cornelius kegs. Here is a summary of
responses {and my comments}:
1. Use phosphoric/nitric acid. If these are unavailable, try
EDTA, which chelates the calcium in the deposit. {EDTA, what
a simple idea! Does it really work?}
2. Use hot caustic followed by a phosphoric/nitric acid
wash. {Traditional method}
3. Caustic then acid and/or scrubbing with a toilet brush
(new!) attached to a broom handle. {Make sure that toilet
brush is new!}
4. Ray Daniels says to clean it with an acid and that the
March/April issue of Zymurgy will discuss cleaners in
detail.
5. Three respondents said to use PBW (from 5-star, see:
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/ ) {This is an alkali
cleaner. Does it really remove beerstone from kegs?}
6. Use TSP (trisodium phosphate).
7. Use B-brite.
8. Use Beerline cleaner (KOH). {Acid should be more
effective}
9. Use NaOH. {Acid should be more effective}
10. Use muriatic acid (HCl). {I have heard that HCl can
damage the welded joints in kegs. Others have urged me not
to use it}
11. Use an acid followed by caustic. {This is contrary to
accepted wisdom: caustic then acid}
12. Follow instructions as in:
http://www.birkocorp.com/beerstone.asp {Nice web site}
Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:07:38 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer@gte.net>
Subject: Welcome to Lauter Tun Flow!
Paul graciously volunteered to join the circle jerk that I, Guy Gregory,
Martin Brugaard, Steve Alexander, and Brian Kern have been working on for
several years. (or maybe I am just being heckled)
In his post, he notes that 3D Lauter Tun flow should look like:
d/dX [Kxx dH/dX] + d/dY [Kyy dH/dY] + d/dZ [Kzz dH/dZ] +
W(X,Y,Z,t) = Ss dH/dT (eq 1-1)
W = SIGMA (i=1 to n) Qi d (X-Xi d (Y-Yi) d (Z-Zi) (eq 1-2)
Where Qi is the extraction rate of wort through the lauter outlet;
Xi, Yi, and Zi are the three-dimensional coordinates of the lauter
outlet; and N is the number of outlets (usually 1 for most home
set ups). Note that the Dirac Delta functions in space have
units of reciprocal length (1/L).
But, I don't think Darcy's Law is applicable (too many simplifying
assumptions) and the experimental data does not agree with it.
See http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/Fluidflow.html
Recently Brian Kern has been showing me that a Laplace equation is a better
solution to the observed flows.
(from off-line)
>Here's one way to look at it. The Laplace Eqn solutions want very much
to see linear changes (something like P = ay + b). The equation
it solves looks like P''=0 (' is a derivative), which is just
begging for a linear solution. The current is the first derivative
of the pressure, so the current looks like J = P' = a, which is a constant.
This means that the current is pretty much constant everywhere.
Look at P = H/r^2. When we get deep enough that r < H (i.e. we're
more than half-way from the surface to the manifold), it starts to
look like P = const/r^2. The current, which is J = P' = const/r^3, gets
enormous near the manifold. The problem with this solution is that
those huge currents near the manifold aren't being supplied by the small
currents far from the manifold -- you have to be spontaneously creating the
water that feeds those large currents, deep inside the grain bed. This
violates flux conservation, which you would say mathematically is the
divergence of the current (div J = 0). That's the starting point of the
Laplace Eqn solution -- and that's the one assumption I'm sure we need.
Martin is examining flow solutions using the computer tools available to
him, and has provided some very nicely collaborating models that look at
faster flow down the lauter walls.
And my good friend Steve had sent me equations a few months ago when I
posted to ask how to model 3D Flow.
His solutions were:
>in gory detail, and substituting your inch values back in:and let's call zb
=-10inch and ze=+10inch, so Z=0 is the middles of the Z-dimension in your
tun.
first calculate
D1 = sqrt( (x-2)^2 + (y-0.5)^2) )
D2 = sqrt( (x-4.5)^2 + (y-0.5)^2) )
D3 = sqrt( (x-7)^2 + (y-0.5)^2) )
then
P(x,y,z) = (8-y) * (
( 1/D1 * (atan((10-z)/D1) - atan((-10-z)/D1)) )
+ ( 1/D2 * (atan((10-z)/D2) - atan((-10-z)/D2)) )
+ ( 1/D3 * (atan((10-z)/D3) - atan((-10-z)/D3)) )
)
Then just set P(x,y,z) to a fixed value and solve for the surface <all
x,y,z, points) for which the eqn is true.
So I think you may be on the same track Paul.
Welcome to the team!
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com
Let there be Peace on Earth.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:33:06 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders@paddockwood.com>
Subject: CO2 volumes
Here's a question for those who know:
How many cubic feet approximately of CO2 are there at 1 atmosphere, room
temp, in a standard 20lb CO2 tank?
TIA.
Stephen,
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders@paddockwood.com www.paddockwood.com
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #3510, 12/22/00
*************************************
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