Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
HOMEBREW Digest #2943
HOMEBREW Digest #2943 Tue 02 February 1999
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
DRY YEAST/Response to Rob (Joe Rolfe)
GFIs ("Peter J. Calinski")
Organic Malt (Randy Shreve)
Momily (Jack Schmidling)
False bottoms summary (Dan Sherman)
Correction (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Re: Sanitation Again ("Peter J. Calinski")
Re: Converting a hoff-stevens type keg (Steven Ensley)
electric heating (Jon Macleod)
milling and mashing raw wheat (Jim Layton)
re:bleach (Jon Macleod)
Sanitation Blasphemy ("Eric R. Theiner")
EBC - Lovibond Calc ("NFGS")
Too cold Lagering (Christopher "R." Hebert)
materials for gaskets and O-rings(long post) ("Timmons, Frank")
Re: blowoff loss/head retention ("Otto, Doug")
spruce? (Jon Macleod)
ANN: Competition - Calgary, AB ("")
Re: Response to St. Pats ("Stanley E. Prevost")
Translation of my message (Alan McKay)
GF whatever (The Holders)
Re: Bottling bucket necessary? ("Christopher Tkach")
Gibberellic Acid and barley germination (Clifton Moore)
Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
Enter The Mazer Cup! _THE_ mead competition.
Details available at http://hbd.org/mazercup
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org
If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!
To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org.
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!
Contact brewery@hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"
Back issues are available via:
HTML from...
http://hbd.org
Anonymous ftp from...
ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
AFS users can find it under...
/afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org
(Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be
reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless
EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the
author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)
JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:01:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc@shore.net>
Subject: DRY YEAST/Response to Rob
A few data points to the beating I took #2941 from Rob.
(this will be a last on this subject as this is getting into
a futile pissing contest). Please forgive the verbosity level
there are some interesting points of view - for some.
Rob and I disagree on alot of points.
But dont get me wrong Rob, I did use just recently (my first
brew in a few years) a dry yeast and I was floored by the
clean flavor. Like I said when I WAS using them - you could
not get that flavor and it was more than likely
due to process at the plants. I dont think I got two bricks
that did the same thing. How the hell can anyone run a biz
that way - hence one reason why I went to inhouse and to Siebels
to learn how to do it correctly. Yes it is alot of work. Pick two,
good, fast, cheap.
RE: GABF and panels
A good percentage of the beers that get shipped to GABF are
typically not your average sampling from a brewery.
Many breweries/pubs select fresh runs just for GABF and
just to get a medal for marketing purposes. IMHO that is all
GABF/World Cup etc is good for anyway. Not a bad thing either.
And standing alone in a controlled beer tasting is alot different
that standing alone in normal trade.
RE:clean brew/breweries, repitching, pure dry yeast:
I did not think having a clean brew/brewery was an option,
but what do I know. During my repitching experience the yeast
hardly ever saw the light of day. I spent a good 10hrs a week
doing yeast management (even that was not enough), but one thing
for sure the performance and flavor did not change terribly much.
(not hard facts, just tasting notes from various batches). The
yeast after the extended repitch was still clean as the driven snow,
(and that aint yellow snow either;). As I was wrapping up my brewery
experiences (at my choosing not the market or the banks - btw) a new
technology was becoming available that I thought would have made it
real nice for smaller breweries to keep a yeast cranking along for
6-12 months - Immobilized Yeast/Continuous fermentation. I am still
very much interested in this as a easy way to keep yeast growing.
As for purity, from what I have been taught - If you dont get a purity
certificate or can not obtain one - it aint pure. That - from my
simplistic point of view - is why the vendor indicates xx cfu/?l of
bug type...pure = 0 cfu/?l of bug type in my book.
RE:cost of dry yeast/equipment involved/risk
Like I said brewpubs have alot more leeway.
1/2bbl at a micro typically to a distrib = $65 to get $80 to retail.
a case to distrib = $14 (or less) to get $5-$6 a six at retail
1/2bbl at a pub (even 100 pints per keg at 2.25/pint) = $225
$3-$4 a bbl is a tough nut to chew on IMHO...but then like you say
what do I know - I only ran a brewery for 5 years....so I am stupid.
I doubt you need to purchase a lot of equipment, a scope should be
there anyway, autoclave == pressure cooker, hood - nope, sep fridg
ok, small centrifuge - ok used $50, incubators (anaerobic - a tin
box with a candle will do), lab tubes/plates/chemicals - a couple a
hundred a year for a small micro. Send the head brewer to Seibels
for two weeks a few grand. In the grand scheme of things not a hell of
alot of initial outlay.
I agree tho if you factor in all the embedded costs of each (inhouse,
purchased slurry/dry) dry has some financial benefits up to a certain
volume. Where the line is drawn is brewery dependent. The big problem
lies in risk analysis - do I want to risk a Schlitz type problem when
I get to that stage of brewery operations. Or do I want to risk an
availability/shipping problem. Or do I want to risk a process glitch
at the plant of manufacture. Yes it is easier, and what ever way you
choose, you still wont sleep well at nite.
RE:brewpubs/failures in the industry/brand confusions
Rob - you read way to much between the lines, I did say a brewpub
was a restaurant first, correct....the three L's is the first rule,
and anyone (with experience) in the biz knows that by default.
I did not say failure == dry yeast. But as any brewery owner
knows (or should know) YOU LIVE and DIE by your yeast (then
marketing, distribution followed by a slew of others). Alot of the
failures I see are mostly people who got caught up in the thrill of
it all, and scumbag distributors (like one I had) sure dont help.
No yeast is never mentioned, only the top level things as you mentioned
but defective fermentations cause most product glitches.
<nothing really to do specifically with dry yeast - just market info>
This market (Boston/New York) has lots of 'good ole boy networks' and
illegal 'purchases of draft lines'. Another key event - while
the smaller local breweries where still trying to grow locally, some
'far flung further west' breweries dumped mass amounts of defective
beer on the market here. Most of these beers are still on the shelf
today - 4 years later. To bad - no date codes. No wonder the market
seems to be in trouble (for micros) around here. Was this the only
factor - most probably not
RE: world class
world class == world class breweries - by your standards
I guess that would be anyone who has won at GABF - right.
I think most people out there know what world class is.
(just to pick a few - here comes some flames I can see it now
- A/B, COORS, MILLER and a few larger micros, dup that in any
other country you wish) that is world class...these breweries
even tho many homebrewers look down the nose at them ARE world class.
A medal winner does not 'have' to equal world class.
There are cases (if your heavy into matching styles - Im not one)
that can not be reproduced by using dry yeast. That may or maynot
change in the future, but the lab I mentioned does have some to do
these - at a heavy price tho. So in a nutshell I would say a world
class brewery is a brewery that pretty much defined a style and has
exceptional managment, brewhouse/fermantation process control, a low
O2 bottling line and is well financed/backed.
Like I said - I have nothing in particular against dry yeast. As I
always have said and will continue to say - IF IT WORKS IN YOUR BREWERY
- DO IT, BUT IT MAY NOT WORK EVERYWHERE.
Your post basically gives your slant on the 'touchy subject'
and I think I know where your coming from (as you have a
financial interest in it - as you stated). And you should learn
to read what is written rather than read between the lines...
nuff said.
Joe Rolfe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:02:46 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski@iname.com>
Subject: GFIs
In HBD #2941 The Holders <zymie@sprynet.com> Wrote:
______________________________________________________________________
Every time I read a post or website about brewing with electricity, I
think to myself......hmmmmm, why is everyone so anal about GFCI
protection?
(snip)
It doesn't seem to damn likely that someone is gonna stick their head or
hand in a bucket of boiling wort and get electrocuted, but I guess it
could happen. Most people never give a thought to the fact that their
electrically heated water coming out of the shower head isn't GFCI
protected.
Hmmmm....
Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
_________________________________________________________________________
To which I respond:
But they might be putting their dial thermometer (a conductor) in the wort
to see how the heating is coming along. Or they might be putting their
immersion chiller (copper tubing) in the wort for the last 10 min. to
sanitize. Or, in my case, the heater is mounted with copper tubing that
extends above the top of the boiler and can easily be touched.
Also, what about products of electrolysis from current flowing through the
wort. Hummm...might add some interesting flavors ;-).
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:59:56 -0500
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve@interpath.com>
Subject: Organic Malt
Has anybody tried any of the organic malt that is now available?
Just curious to see how it stacks up to some of the other base malts.
Zum Wohl!
Randy in Salisbury, NC
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:43:37 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf@mc.net>
Subject: Momily
Guess this should get into the FAQ.
As the person who brought the term to the HBD, I claim the right to
define it.
I ran across the term in a book I found on someone's desk while waiting
for him to get off the phone. The title of the book was simply,
"Momilies" and it was full of those quaint things that moms are
inclined to proclaim as commandments from god.
One of my favorites was.. "ice cubes freeze faster if you use warm
water".
Contrary to what was previously said, they are not necessarily wrong
or untrue. What makes them important is that one has to grow up to
figure out which ones are true and which are false.
Just like in making beer, you probably can't get in too much trouble if
you believe everything the "experts" say but as your knowledge and
skill increase, you come to realize that many of these "momilies"
are simply rubbish or just as bad, unnecessary anal time wasters.
js
- --
Visit our WEB pages: http://user.mc.net/arf
ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:18:43 +73600 (PST)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman@biomail.ucsd.edu>
Subject: False bottoms summary
A big thank you to everyone who responded to my question about using false
bottoms in a boiling kettle to keep trub and hops out of the fermenter. I
had over 20 responses (most via email), which once again shows that
homebrewers *love* to talk about their equipment!
I will try to keep this brief, but if anyone has any further questions or
needs clarification, feel free to email me.
Most respondents use whole hops, irish moss, and immersion chillers. No
one had any problems using irish moss. A couple of people said that they
never have any problems with draining if they use at least 1 oz of whole
hops & one person said that his system works fine w/ 1 oz whole hops & the
rest pellets. Generally, scorching and caramelization are not a problem.
On the low-tech end of the scale, 2 people use stainless or copper Chore
Boys, but don't even try to use pellet hops.
For the do-it-yourselfers, Phil Wilcox CC'd to the digest about his false
bottom made of "pizza scrims" (I had to email him back to find out that
these are what I know as pizza screens). Another person used #16 stainess
steel mesh wrapped around a stainless ring (like a "large, flat strainer")
with success. Someone else just cut a circle out of some perforated
aluminum sheet stock.
A couple of people mentioned "screens", one made by Listerman Supply, but
didn't give thorough descriptions. They work well for 2 people, but one
person tried 2 different types of "screens" & settled on a Chore Boy.
A number of respondents have commercial false bottoms. A couple mention
Sabco & PolarWare, but mention that there is about 1 gal of wort left
below the false bottom. No problems with scorching, though.
One person uses a false bottom made by Stainless in Seattle (sold through
www.beeronline.com) & likes it.
Five people mentioned a false bottom made by Advanced Brewing Technologies
(www.advancedbrew.com/false.html). Their web site lists retailers who
carry their products. This sounds like a pretty good product & everyone
who uses one in their boiling kettle is happy with it. It is less
expensive than most & can be found for under $40. Chuck Bernard described
it perfectly & I am taking the liberty of copying his description (hope
you don't mind, Chuck): "Their FB is 18ga, 304SS, with 3/32 holes on 5/32
centers. The unique thing about this particular FB is that it has a 3/4"
long 10 degree "flare" out at the edge that contours to the bottom of a
Sankey keg, so you get "area contact," as opposed to "line contact." The
picture on their website actually shows it better than I described it. If
I remember right its about 1/2 the price of everyone elses FB. The only
"bad" thing about it is its only available with a 3/8 dip tube, 1/2" would
be nice."
Hope this summary helps! Thanks again to all those who sent responses to
me and/or the digest!
Dan Sherman
dsherman@ucsd.edu
San Diego, CA
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:23:39 -0500
From: PAUL W HAAF JR <haafbrau1@juno.com>
Subject: Correction
When I mentioned making a gauge for your kegs, I meant to
say to use a dial gauge up to 60 lbs pressure, not thirty.
Paul Haaf
(Add witty remark here)
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:41:38 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Sanitation Again
In HBD #2942 Vernon R Land <vland1@juno.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I have violated many "sanitation rules" in my short career as
>a home brewer and still haven't managed to get an infection.
And then there was the guy who violated a "street crossing rule".
>Sanitation Violations:
Street crossing violation:
>1) Hairy arm inserted into cooled wort up to armpit prior to start of
>fermentation looking for rubber thingy - no infection
1)Crossed street without looking - didn't get hit.
>2) No chlorine soak for 5 batches of beer bottles, simple rinse with tap
>water - no infection in any bottle
2)Crossed street again without looking - didn't get hit.
>3) 48 hour lag time - no infection
3)Crossed street again without looking - didn't get hit.
>4) Wort cooled in driving rainstorm with no lid - no infection
4)Crossed street again without looking - didn't get hit.
>Vern Land
>Sanitation Blasphemer
Pete Calinski
Street Crossing Blasphemer. NO WAY. I'll always look before I cross and
I'll always practice reasonable (but not anal) measures to sanitize.
Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:01:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Ensley <steve@globaldialog.com>
Subject: Re: Converting a hoff-stevens type keg
I just saw the comments regarding aluminum brewpots in the FAQ for
rec.crafts.brewing so it apears they are not 'dangerous' at least not any
more so than coper, or the aluminum you get from other sources.
I have a couple of ideas on how to proceed on converting a couple of
hoff-stevens type kegs for use as a brewpot and possibly a lautertun.
If I can find someone who will weld aluminum in exchange for homebrew, or
a modest charge then I will use scrap from the top Im cutting off to form
a patch for the bung, and a tube which he will have to weld the seam on,
then weld into a hole. I can then adapt this to the ball valve using a
short length of blowoff tube which will then also serve the purpose of
being a sight tube for judging clairity during sparging. On the inside,
Ill make the tube the right size to make a presure fit with
copper fittings and coper pipe and a steel screen filter ezsparge
type arrangement.
If I can't arange welding for less than it would cost to buy some new
steel pots then Ill use scrap to make 2 patches about an inch bigger than
the bung. Ill drill 6 or so holes through the patches and keg around the
circumfrence of the hole. then Ill bolt them in with a bead of rtv on the
outside patch to help seal. Possibly a rubber washer or o ring on the
inside. Since that far up the side of the keg, and on the inside it
should not be subjected to the direct fire heat there should not be any
melting problem. This method I guess I wont bother with the valve and
just use a racking cane and keep using the plastic bucket for sparging.
Comments??
Steve
KB9RMM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:16:05 -0500
From: marli@bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: electric heating
For a number of years I have used a Bruheat (5 gal plastic pail with
220V heating element) to heat my mash and sparge water. Lately I've
noticed it doesn't heat as fast as my memory tells me it did. Do
heating elements wear out? I'd appreciate any suggestions of cleaning
or replacing to get it back up to speed. I have already cleaned the
connections and the element itself has always been clean.
Thanks
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:44:00 -0600
From: Jim Layton <a0456830@rlemail.dseg.ti.com>
Subject: milling and mashing raw wheat
George De Piro (whose contributions to this digest I greatly appreciate)
recently wrote of milling raw wheat:
>...45% raw healthfood store wheat (good thing my mill was >adjustable)...
I would just like to offer the following anecdote. This weekend, I
brewed my very first plambic. The grain bill included 3 pounds of soft
white raw wheat. (Note: _soft white_ as opposed to _hard red_ is
important here. These terms are used to differentiate between two
general types of wheat. The hard red type has a smaller, tougher
kernel.) I ran the wheat through my hand cranked, nonadjustable JSP
(standard disclaimer) maltmill one time and examined the crush. Every
kernel seemed to have been crushed to some extent, though many kernels
were still more or less clinging together. I decided to run the grist
through one more time. The resulting crush looked perfect to my mind. No
intact kernels, a small amount of flour and lots of itty-bitty pieces.
Anyway, I followed the shortcut cereal mash schedule which Jim Liddil
wrote up in one of his Brewing Techniques articles on lambic production.
After the mash, I collected 7.5 gallons of runoff at SG 1.041 from 6
pounds pils malt and 3 pounds wheat. Not bad, eh? The sparge was
uneventful, as I had hoped.
My point is this: if you own a non-adjustable mill, don't assume that
you can't use it to mill raw wheat without giving it a try (but you
probably should be picky about the type of wheat you purchase). Oh, if
your mill is motorized, you'll need a powerful motor and drive to get
the first pass through. If not motorized, a strong arm will do.
As a side note to George, did the mash schedule you used in the wit
involve boiling the wheat (as in my plambic) or was it a step-temp
infusion mash? I have used flaked wheat in a step infusion mash for all
of my wit beers to-date, but the wort from this cereal mash using raw
wheat had a beautiful yellow-green translucence which made me think of
using the same schedule, with a higher percentage of wheat, for my next
wit. Is boiling of the wheat unnecessary? If boiling the wheat is not
required, are there benefits? What are some of the pros and cons? (OK,
just the fact that you are doing the cereal mash is a con from the
standpoint of added time, labor, and cleanup)
Jim Layton (Howe, TX)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:43:22 -0500
From: marli@bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re:bleach
I used to be the process supervisor and a Clorox plant, so I feel I need
to make a quick comment regarding the bleach post back on 1/15 (sorry, I
don't get to this everday).
Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is made by bubbling chlorine gas up through
a large tank full of water and sodium hydroxide. The amount of sodium
hydoxide determines the strength of the resulting bleach, since the
chlorine flow is stopped just at the point you've used up all the
caustic. Typical household bleach is about 5.25% sodium hypochlorite,
with a pH around 11. Nothing is added to stabilize it (except sented
bleaches do receive a small amount of additional caustic after
chlorination for stability against the perfume).
Do NOT add acid to your bleach whether you "know what you are doing" or
not. This is the old mixing cleanser problem. The caustic will
preferentially react with the acid, releasing the chlorine. I guess at
that point its nice to know that human senses are way too senstive to
allow their foolish owners to stick around long enough to actually get
hurt. You'll be leaving the room.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:13:25 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic@skantech.com>
Subject: Sanitation Blasphemy
Vern Land boasts of little concern for sanitation (I could be reading
you wrong, Vern-- please correct me if I am):
> Sanitation Violations:
> 1) Hairy arm inserted into cooled wort up to armpit prior to start of
fermentation looking > for rubber thingy - no infection
> 2) No chlorine soak for 5 batches of beer bottles, simple rinse with
tap water - no
> infection in any bottle
> 3) 48 hour lag time - no infection
> 4) Wort cooled in driving rainstorm with no lid - no infection
Actually, the only one that surprises me is #1; you must really have
clean arms!
My point is that sanitation is very easy as long as cleanliness is
maintained. Clean out the fermenters really well and there is probably
little left behind to contribute to contamination. Similarly, the
bottles contain no infected beer, so rinse out any organics that new
nasties can develop on, and you're probably 99% fine on that, too.
But that one time...
There are some really good sanitizing products available to the
homebrewer, both specialized and all-purpose, so you might as well use
them. Just my $0.02.
Someone also referred to sanitation with kegs. My method is to not
bother with disassembly for the purpose of cleaning and sanitizing. I
clean them as well as I can through the soak and rinse method.
Occasionally I have developed a slight infection at the tail end of a
keg-- that one gets taken apart and scrubbed, but I don't see a need for
it every time.
Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:21:55 -0800
From: "NFGS" <fjrusso@coastalnet.com>
Subject: EBC - Lovibond Calc
Can someone tell me where to find or how to do the calculation of converting
Lovibond to EBC. My brewing calculator requires EBC values. I purchased
some malts with Lovibond numbers. My local store does not appear to be able
to help me with this.
Frank
fjrusso@coastalnet.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:04:28 -0700
From: Christopher "R." Hebert <CRH@ny.rfny.rflaw.com>
Subject: Too cold Lagering
Last weekend I brewed my first-ever lager. It's presently sitting in my
50F basement, doing its utmost to make me some fine beer. It a couple of
weeks, I plan to transfer to the corny keg and lager at outdoor temps
(provided it's less than 35 or so. My question is this: what will happen if
the temp goes down to 20 or so. I know the beer will freeze, or at least
get slushy, but will this be a Bad Thing? I'll leave enough ullage to
prevent bursting the keg, so I'm not going to worry about that. (Or should
I?) Should I drag the beer in and leave it in an ice bath if the temp does
drop that low? Does the time the beer is spent frozen "stop the clock"
when it comes to lagering duration, or is that time counted in the 4
weeks, too.
Good advice is crucial, for if this meets the high expectations of my wife,
by this time next year, I may have a dedicated floor freezer for beer.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:25:00 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons@alliedsignal.com>
Subject: materials for gaskets and O-rings(long post)
In the HBD on Monday, Doug Bonnell included a pretty useful chart on
rubber parts' fluid compatibility and asked if anyone had any discussion
on the subject. Since a big part of my job revolves around material
specifications in the chemical industry, I'll take a stab at it. I
emphasize I have no advances degrees or other pedigree, just 10 years of
experience and a BS in mechanical engineering from a state university (
aka a "party school") With my qualifications, or lack thereof, out of
the way, I will summarize what I know:
To my knowledge, the only materials on the chart that are FDA "food
grade" are silicone, Teflon (PTFE), and sometimes ethylene propylene
and Buna N. Viton and Kalrez are just fluorinated hydrocarbons, much
like Teflon, but are somewhat more elastic. Viton is available with a
"food grade" designation if needed; I don't know about Kalrez. I don't
think they are used much in the food and beverage industry, probably not
because they are not suitable, but because of their high cost and the
fact that their extreme chemical resistance is not often needed. I just
bought some (not very big, mind you) Kalrez O-rings for work and paid
$38 each! Additionally, but not included in his list, polyethylene(PE),
polypropylene(PP), Tygon brand tubing, PVC, some vinyls, nitrile rubbers
and neoprenes (if specified to be food grade), and most of the other
fluorinated hydrocarbons such as PFA and Kynar.
It should be noted that there is no such thing as "FDA approved"
materials. The food grade designation just means that the manufacturer
certifies that the chemical composition and physical characteristics of
the material meet minimum requirements published by the FDA. These
guidelines apply mainly to food and beverage manufacturers, and not bars
or restaurants as a general rule. The FDA criteria are chemical
inertness, porosity, and amount of chemical residues leaching into the
carried fluid from the material in a lab test, among other things.
As far as usefulness in a homebrewery, all of the listed choices should
be ok except for polyurethane. Silicone is very soft and therefore not
good for gaskets and such, but silicone tubing is pretty neat for
siphoning. It is more heat resistant than the vinyl tubing most people
use for racking, etc, so it can be autoclaved or boiled to sanitize.
For bulkhead fittings on converted kegs, I like Teflon, because of its
high heat tolerance, strength, which allows the fitting to be tightened
properly without having the washer extrude out from under the fitting..
Better yet, a glass filled PTFE gasket material called "Blue Gylon" from
Garlock. It is softer and more conformable than the pure PTFE. My first
converted keg used a sandwich of 1/8 inch Blue Gylon and a stainless
steel flat washer behind the brass petcock fitting. It never leaked in 3
years of use. You could probably get a scrap of it from somebody in your
area that sells gasketing products to industrial customers. The metal
washer helps spread the stresses out on the gasket. Don't use zinc
plated steel washers, as someone else asked about recently.
In my experience as a homebrewer, I have not noticed significant taste
or odor components from any materials such as hoses, etc. as long as the
temperatures are kept fairly low, less than 100 degrees F and contact
time is kept to a minimum. Vinyl hoses can serious leach smelly stuff
into ordinary water if it is hot or sits in it for a while. For an
example, try drinking water out of your garden hose on a hot day. Good
Luck and Happy Brewing.
Frank Timmons
Richmond, Va.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:34:37 -0800
From: "Otto, Doug" <otto@alldata.com>
Subject: Re: blowoff loss/head retention
Until recently, I used to think the same thing. I too, use a 7 gallon
primary and up until last weekend had never had a problem. I brewed a
"clean out the cabinet quasi-dunkelweizen thing."
8 lbs 6row Pale
8 lbs light munich
6 lbs wheat malt
.75 lbs chocolate
1.5oz Hallertaur Tradition @5.4% FWH
40-50-60-70C mash schedule and White labs "hefeweizen yeast". The batch made
10 gallons at 1.050 and I split it into to 7 gallons carboys. I pitched
about 200ml of slurry into each, shook the hell out of it and stuck it in
the closet. Within 4 hours I had fermintation starting and after 24 hours
I had foam spewing everywhere. I finally gave up trying to keep an airlock
on and stuck a plastic cup over each carboy until things settled down. I
figure that as fast as CO2 and krausen where coming out of that carboy, not
too many "bugs" could get it....never quite seen anything like it.
- --
>From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA@navair.navy.mil>
>Subject: blowoff loss/head retention
>
>ian smith asked about how to prevent losing beer due to blowoff. i use an
>oversized carboy, 7 gallons, for primary fermentations, and there is plenty
>of headspace to prevent any loss at all.
~snip
- --
Doug Otto
IT-Systems Manager otto@alldata.com
Alldata LLC 800.829.8727 ext.3137
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:17:31 -0500
From: marli@bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: spruce?
Does anyone have a good all grain spruce beer recipe? Any advice on
source/use of spruce?
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:35:29 PST
From: "" <andrew_avis@hotmail.com>
Subject: ANN: Competition - Calgary, AB
The Marquis de Suds is pleased to announce their 15th annual Open
Homebrew Competition.
This is a BJCP-registered event, and is open to all homebrewers. An
entry form, rules, and drop-off / shipping information can be found at:
http://www.petersoninst.com/mds/ . The entry form is in Adobe Acrobat
(PDF) format. Entry deadline is March 20, 1999.
All entrants will receive completed judge evaluation forms and scores
for each entry. These will be mailed out promptly once judging is
completed.
Judging will be performed by judges qualified under the Beer Judge
Certification Program (BJCP).
Awards will be presented for the top three final round entries in each
of the eight classes. Those entries placing First in the final round for
the Light Lager, Dark Lager, Light Ale, Dark Ale, Stout/Porter, Extra
Strength, and Specialty classes will advance to the Best of Show round.
The best entry overall will receive a special Best of Show award.
The winner of Best of Show will receive a commemorative beer stein
courtesy of Cask Brewing PLUS the opportunity to brew a batch with the
brewer at the Mission Bridge Brewing Co.
For more information contact:
Competition Organiser
Randy Davis (403) 226-4549
email: davisrm@cadvision.com
- --
Drew Avis, Calgary, Alberta | Beer is good for you
Visit my "Cheap is Good Brewery" and "Who's Who on RCB":
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/Vineyard/5543/
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:08:39 -0600
From: "Stanley E. Prevost" <sprevost@ro.com>
Subject: Re: Response to St. Pats
John Wilkinson wrote explaining his comments about email correspondence with
St. Pats.
I had to communicate with Lynne about an order I received, and I emailed
her. After my third ping over about 10 days, in which I was becoming
impatient, I got a response from her indicating that it was her third
response. Apparently there is an email problem somewhere. I bring this up
only to point out to those having a problem that there may be a technical
glitch somewhere that is not apparent. Things could be resolved a little
easier if she had a toll free number.
Stan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:14:56 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay@mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Translation of my message
Sorry folks, I didn't translate since it was kind of pointless
anyway. The places I was pointing to are German-speaking, so if
you couldn't read my message, the contents there-of weren't going
to do you much good ;-)
Harold was off to a really good start with his translation, but
he went for a really bad tumble somewhere in the middle. ;-)
So here's the translation :
Subject : For those who can read this message
Greetings! ("Gruss Gott" in Bavaria and Austria, but "hick-speak"
most anywhere else - no offense to the Bavarians or
Austrians among us)
In case you don't know, there is also a German HBD which you
can find at http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/forum/. The publication
is unfortunately not as regular is this one (maybe once or twice
a week, with 2 to 5 messages each time), but it is very interesting.
In the German-speaking countries one has a different starting-point
than over here. (Bad original text on my part) For example in
Germany even beginner homebrewers ferment their beer under pressure,
which is something you see on this side of the ocean only seldom.
So you get to learn a whole lot of different things which you
otherwise might never see.
THere is also a good page for brew gossip at :
http://www.bier-selbstgebraut.de/wwwforum/index.html
Check it out! The more the merrier!
cheers,
-Alan
- --
"Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
- Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:26:26 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie@sprynet.com>
Subject: GF whatever
In digest #2192, Doug Says:
<quote>
One thing that you may have failed to realize in your infinite wisdom is
the
fact that within a household shower, it is very unlikely that the
fitting is
plumbed to hot water alone. Since the cold water line in most cases is
a
very good ground, the need for a GFCI on the hot water heater isn't
real.
I don't see where the need to belittle folks who are taking the
appropriate
safety precautions should become a part of this forum. You state that
perhaps this "need" comes from folks who simply don't know electricity.
That is exactly, why "advanced brewers" should spout "safety
information" at
every opportunity. Many folks who turn to this forum, simply don't have
a
firm grasp on this type of thing - that is the exact reason why a GFCI
belongs on their setup.
</quote>
I won't take the time to pick apart your logic in the above paragraph.
I never said that GFCI protection was a *bad* idea. Its amazing how
people read between the lines.
Everyone gets up on their soapbox and preaches GFCI protection, yet
nobody ever mentions proper mechanical bonding of metallic parts to
create a return path for potential fault current.
Doug also said:
<quote>
Begin ignorant rant:
</quote>
I guess since you know me so well, Doug, and have looked up "ignorant"
in the dictionary, I bow to your "infinite wisdom" as to my level of
knowledge.
In the same digest, John says:
<quote>
I digress, the things you can learn in an
industrial safety class. Electricity really is take way too lightly by
way too many people.
</quote>
I agree John, electricity is taken too lightly by WAY to many people.
Also, if you could, imagine the things you can learn outside that
classroom.
I don't know how many people have seen a GFI fail because the contacts
are welded shut by fault current it could NOT stop. I'm not going to
speculate on the percentage of times a GFI can save your life vs. the
one time it won't.
Also, John says:
<quote>
About your water heater example. The heater coil is constructed in such
a way that the part that touches the water is ground (equipment ground)
and
the inner portion (heat producing part) carries the load. Also the tank
is connected to the equipment ground and unless there are no copper
pipes
in you house, they too are connected to ground (usually earth ground).
If there is a failure in the heater coil, the hot line will be connected
to
ground (equipment or earth). This is basically a short circuit. A
short
circuit draws a large amount of current and the breaker trips in short
order. At no time is the current presented with the opportunity to take
a path to ground other than its design path or a short circuit, the
water
can not become electrically hot.
</quote>
Gee, doesn't that sound like a heater in a RIMS? *Assuming* there is an
equipment grounding conductor present.
There are really only 2 ways I can see RIMS/Electric brewing being
hazardous:
1. Contact with live parts; all wiring should be done in a fashion that
will prohibit this.
2. Short circuit in a heating element or other device; a properly sized
equipment grounding conductor should be installed to prevent stray
voltage should this occur.
Take care of these 2 items, THEN install your GFI.
Looking forward to the incoming dissertations of GFCI protection from
all of the drummers in the band as well as the driver of the wagon,
Wayne Holder
Long Beach CA
http://andinator.com/zymico
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:15:33 -0500
From: "Christopher Tkach" <tkach@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Bottling bucket necessary?
Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu> says:
>One good thing about racking once more is that you can bottle with a lot
>less yeast carryover. When I bottled, I would fine with gelatin in the
>secondary, which gave me nearly crystal clear beer (usually ales) over a
>firm yeast sediment. I managed to have no more yeast in the bottle than
>the thickness of a coat of paint. Aesthetically pleasing. Gives a clear
>glass of beer with no careful decanting.
Just a quick question... Do you find it takes longer to bottle condition
when you fine w/ gelatin? Approx. how long?
- Chris
Dover, NH
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:25:57 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore@gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: Gibberellic Acid and barley germination
I purchased a 1/4 oz. vial of Gibberellic Acid from Carolina Scientific
for use on my malting barley experiments. I understood that I was
getting the non water soluble version as the HCl salts were not in their
inventory. I was faced with a small vial of material that had the
physical
characteristics and look of bees wax. How to get a dose rate of .25 mg.
per Kg of seed? (note: that reads .00025 g GA3/Kg barley) Multiple
dilution in ethanol was my only option. I had to hot bath dissolve the
goo,
and even then it became a milky fluid that tends to separate into clear
and milky strata when left standing. I have just made my first
application
of this mixture into the final steep on a small test batch. I am
prepared
for a negative result in that I suspect that I do not have the
gibberellic
acid in a true solution. It acts and looks like a small particle
suspension.
Then there is the question of what will happen when this is added to
water. My addition of the CRC doesn't even have an entry for
Gibberellic Acid.
I have seen the level of professional expertise that readers of this
list
covers, and am asking for feedback on the use of GA3. I understand
that it is commonly used as a fruit growth modifier. Is it used
commercially in its soluble form? Any help would be appreciated.
Clif
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #2943, 02/02/99
*************************************
-------
