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HOMEBREW Digest #2934
HOMEBREW Digest #2934 Fri 22 January 1999
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Subject: Coffee Stout and barley wine yeasts (Gillespie)
barley wine yeast, not food grade plastic (Ken Pendergrass)
oh no! an aeration question (John Herman)
Re:Sanitizing Bottles ("Colin K.")
Re: *delicate* balance (Scott Murman)
Cutting out Keg Tops (Clint Thessen)
bottle caps & chiller (Jason.Gorman)
Re: (MaltHound)
re:Hot break filtering, runout and a need for speed (David Kerr)
whisky yeast (Jeff Renner)
Source for Solenoid Valves ("H. Dowda")
Re: Diacetyl Rest info needed (John Murphy)
Yeast purity ("Steve Blanchard")
Nitrous oxide (John Baxter Biggins)
No Fruit Flies here (Paul Niebergall)
1968 (John Adsit)
Re: blue corn meal as an adjunct (Jeff Renner)
Re: whiskey or whisky (Jeff Renner)
Re:Sanitizing Bottles & Aluminum Foil (Matthew Comstock)
Re:nitrogen bubbles (Tidmarsh Major)
re: nitrous oxide (Lou.Heavner)
Brew Stands/Nitrous Oxide/Lighter Side/Cancelling posts ("David C. Harsh")
Sanitizing Bottles and Aluminum ("Franklin.Tom")
Dry Rice Extract (Darren Cousineau)
Re: CFU's/ NG? (YYZCLAYTON)
Millenial Barley Wine / Plastic Fermenters ("Siegi Chavez Jr.")
Re:Nitrous Oxide (Matthew Comstock)
Stainless steel screen (Doug Moyer)
Kansas City Bier Meisters RHC Feb 19th/20th ("John Weerts")
Millennium Barley Wine ("Alan McKay")
RE: Aluminum Foil ("Alan McKay")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:40:02 -0500
From: Gillespie <dlgilles@net-link.net>
Subject: Subject: Coffee Stout and barley wine yeasts
Sean,
I've made one coffee stout, and sampled several batches made by a
close friend. All
were made with 1/4 to 1/2 cup of ground coffee beans added 10 or 15
minutes prior to
the end of the boil. Then strained out while pouring into the
fermentor. They all
tasted good, but 1/2 cup makes for a VERY coffee stout. My next batch
will have 1/4
to 3/8 cup in it. I'm afraid to admit it, but I just made a porter
with 3/4 cup of
Tasters Choice instant coffee in it. I boiled it in 1 pint of water
and added it to
the secondary. It honestly tastes great. Just enough coffee flavor to
taste, but it's
weak enough to make you wonder if it's coffee or some other roast
flavor. I've had
more compliments on it than most beers I've made.
As for the barleywine. I just transfered a new barleywine to the
secondary, and
pitched champagne yeast to it. It was fermented for a week with
Wyeast #1056 American
Ale yeast, just barely starting to settle, that way there was still
plenty of
available sugars for the champagne yeast to get a good quick start.
I've sampled
friends barelywines made with the same yeast combination, and they're
better than any
barleywine I've bought. I would recommend it. Good luck with both
batches.
Don G. in Kalamazoo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:30:53 -0500
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794@earthlink.net>
Subject: barley wine yeast, not food grade plastic
Sam in San Diego asks about champagne yeast for barley wine. I've just
been reading about this in "Designing great Beers", Ray Daniels(which is
a great book). He uses commercial records and'93/'94 NHC second round
entries to construct profiles for several styles of beer. The following
are some thoughts from him. There is no record of anything but ale
yeast in historical records. Today some micros and homebrewers do use
champagne or wine yeast in the US. NHC entries used a wide varity of
yeasts but no champagne, 3 entries used American ale, the only
duplicate. In some research he quotes 15 ale yeasts attained higher
attentuation than the 5 champagnes tested. He suggests maximize
aereation and repitch the yeast from a prior batch. For my N2K barley
wine I intend to use Yeast Culture Kit A8 English Barleywine to brew a
brown ale and rack my barleywine wort onto the yeast from that brew.
Regards,
Ken Pendergrass
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:58:32 -0500
From: John Herman <johnvic@earthlink.net>
Subject: oh no! an aeration question
When I got my aeration system I bought a air pump setup. Penny wise and
pund foolish. Needless to say it takes quite a long time. The
instructions say that I should aerate for 1 hour before pitching, and
one hour after pitching. The problem is, when I transfer from my brew
pot, after cooling of course, I strain the wort to aif in trub
elimination and filter out hop residue. This produces a lot of foam.
Now I start to aerate and I quickly get a huge amount of foaming. It is
impossible to even come close to aerateing for 1 hour. What do I do? I
tried not straining ( I do whirlpool to syphon awaay from the trub ),
but it still gets quite foamy. Should I foam away and just have a big
mess, but a well aerated wort?
Thanks,
John Herman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:35:17 -0800
From: "Colin K." <colink@wenet.net>
Subject: Re:Sanitizing Bottles
Well, I was hoping someone would help me with my hope to achieve very
low
final gravities in my IPA but I had no takers. Maybe if a share
something
someone will help me.
This is how I have been sanitizing bottles for the last 6 batches. It
was given to me by a home brewer who's day job is as a enologist for
Stags Leap Winery. I rinse my clean bottles making sure to leave about
1/2 oz or so of water in them. I then stack them on their sides in my
oven and heat them to 170 deg for 20 min. According to her: wet heat
kills, but some spores can survive dry heat. I then shut off the oven.
If I remember to do this a few hours before I need to bottle I just let
them cool in the oven. Otherwise I open the door and let the hot air
out. Then I close the door and wait 20 minutes or so. And repeat until
the temp is down to about 115 deg then you can open the door completely.
If you cool the bottles to quickly they can crack. I like to start to
bottle when the bottles are about 10 to 15 degrees warmer than the beer.
Pour out the residual water and bottle as you normally do. I find the
beer
releases a little CO2 when it hits the hot glass and makes it easier to
cap
on foam.
I have not had an infection yet but I still consider the process
experimental. I find it much easier than any other sanitizing I have
tried.
Cheers,
Colin K.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:07:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman@best.com>
Subject: Re: *delicate* balance
Mark Bayer had a number of good points/questions
> question: what does mashing at 155-160 deg f contribute, other than more
> sweetness? are "malty" and "sweet" necessarily linked?
Malty and sweet are not the same thing. When working with a high
sacc. temperature, effectively you're allowing a higher percentage of
starches to remain as dextrins. These are pre-cursors to sugars.
Malt flavor compounds (Maillard's) are created from sugar and amino
acids and high temperatures - a separate phenomenon. The necessary
entity here is the nitrogen from the amino acids. Malt flavor is
created in the malt house, or from decoction/pressure cooking, but not
from mashing. If it isn't in the grain, and you don't do anything
funky, then you aren't gonna get many malty flavors. Mashing at a
high sacc. temperature isn't going to magically create melanoidins
that weren't there originally.
A high sacc. temp. also shouldn't contribute much sweetness, per se.
Any sugar in the wort will be consumed by the yeast, unless something
is very wrong. A high temp. mash will lead to more "body", and more
foamstand, and less alcohol, and definately a different flavor, but I
don't think it would necessarily be a sweeter flavor profile.
-SM-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:45:51 -0600
From: Clint Thessen <cthessen@mdc.com>
Subject: Cutting out Keg Tops
Hi folks,
Harold Dowda asks about the easiest way to cut out
the tops of his kegs.
For me, I cut the tops out of my kegs using a rotary
tool (Dremel) and the fiber reinforced discs. The job
lasted about 30 min and 2 discs per keg. Eye and ear
protection required. Mark your cutout circle, have a seat
and start grinding. Then switch to the sanding drum to
deburr.
Harold, the next step is to buy a bimetal hole cutter
for your drill and install a bulkhead fitting. I bought brass
1/2" SWAGELOC fittings for $6/pc and 1/2" brass
ball-lock valves with stainless ball for $8/pc (the kind used
for natural gas lines). Brass is fine to use... just remember
to use Palmer's recipe for de-leading brass. On the inside
of your keg you can install a manifold, false bottom or a
piece of copper tube with some stainless screen attached.
I hope this info helps, any extraneous info should be
happily ignored.
Prost!
Clint Thessen
Railyard Brewing
O'Fallon, MO (about 550 mi SSW of Jeff Renner)
------------------------------
Date: 21 Jan 1999 08:37:00 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman@steelcase.com
Subject: bottle caps & chiller
My attempt to find flip top 7-8 oz. bottles has come up short. I am going to
attempt to recap a screw top 7 oz. Bud bottle. I understand that the caps
used for this are a little thinner and softer than the standard caps that we
use. Does anyone know of a source for these thinner caps?
I also have a fermentation chiller of the "Son of a Fermentation Chiller"
design found at http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/. If anyone is interested in
it contact me to come pick it up or maybe make a trade (bottles, swap
brew...). I live in the West Michigan area.
Jason Gorman
RiVeR dOg BrEwErY
GR, MI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:39:13 EST
From: MaltHound@aol.com
Subject: Re:
In Homebrew Digest #2931 (January 18, 1999), Rod Prather <rodpr@iquest.net>
asks:
> For a home brew RIMS, why can't you use the HLT for the brew pot. One less
> pot, one less burner, less fabrication. In an RIMS where the mash is
heated
> by a recirc coil in the HLT you could make a complete system with a single
> burner. The only real problem that I see is the cleaning measures
required.
> If the coil were removable that would be minimal.
>
In fact, it is easy to design a RIMS setup with a single burner. OTOH I find
that the point in the brewing process that requires multiple brewing vessels
is during the sparge. You need to have someplace for the Hot Liquor to be
stored and supplied from at the same time that you need someplace for the wort
to run-off to.
In my electric RIMS setup I have a 48 qt coolers for HLT, a 40 qt cooler for
the mash/lauter tun and a 1/2 barrel keg and propane burner for the kettle.
My regular process goes something like this:
1) Fill mashtun with correct quantity of hot strike water and use RIMS to
bring it to desired strike temp. At the same time I fill the kettle with the
sparge water quantity and begin to heat it to ~180 degrees. This typically
takes quite a while at a low burner setting, however, there is no rush at this
point. I then go of and mill the grain. One of the key benefits of an
electronically controlled RIMS is that I can multitask.
2) Mash-in and conduct RIMS mash. This is kind of independent of any other
vessels at this point. When Hot Liquor reaches temperature I transfer it to
the HLT (cooler) where it stays at temp for hours with negligible heat loss.
3) Lautering is accomplished by continuing to run the pump, cutting the flow
rate down to a minimal trickle and redirecting the output to the kettle. As
the run-off collects in the kettle I can begin bringing it to a boil by firing
up the burner. This is the only time I allow the pump to touch the wort so I
have minimal concerns about the pump's sanitation. This is pretty much the
only point where I find it advantageous to have 3 separate vessels, but only
one of them need be directly heatable.
Hope my sharing my setup and process will give you some ideas that you can
incorporate in yours.
Cheers,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:43:07 -0500
From: David Kerr <dkerr@semc.org>
Subject: re:Hot break filtering, runout and a need for speed
Dave is concerned about slow draining of his boil kettle (through a
copper manifold) is reducing the aroma contribution of his finishing
hop addition.
I've had similar experiences with my EZmasher II installed in a
converted keg, especially when using > 1/2 tsp Irish Moss
(rehydrated) and > 3 oz whole hops in a 10 gallon batch. I use an
immersion chiller, not a CF as Dave does, so my solution is not so
elegant - SS choreboy jammed onto the end of a racking cane, then
siphon.
If impatience in filling your fermenter is not an issue, why not try
a hop-back? Look at CD Pritchard's gadgets page for plans -
http://hbd.org/cdp/
Dave Kerr - Needham, MA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:07:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: whisky yeast
"Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander@worldnet.att.net>, back from the
wilderness, writes:
>Jeff Renner adds
>>Oddly enough, the distillers are not particularly fussy
>>about yeast and typically use dry yeast.
>I'm not sure that selecting dry yeast means that distillers are less picky.
I was basing my comments in part on the interview with Michael Jackson in
Malt Advocate - late Fall issue, p. 38 "I think they [Scottish distillers]
massively fail to comprehend the importance of yeast strains. There's
really a whole lot that hasn't been explored there." I also remember
reading elsewhere that they use dry yeast. Bourbon makers, as I mentioned
earlier, are different. Some use dry yeast, some use hopped starters with
proprietary yeasts, and some deliberately introduce lactobacillus with
proprietary yeast for sour yeast (not the same as sour mash).
Jeff
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner@umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:13:14 -0500
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda@usit.net>
Subject: Source for Solenoid Valves
Any one have a source for low voltage, liquid (sparge water temps),
solenoid valves.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:23:09 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm@ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Diacetyl Rest info needed
Sean Murphy (smurphy@sdcoe.k12.ca.us) asks about the timing of
a diacetyl rest:
>I would like to do a diacetyl rest but am not sure of the exact
>time to do the rest. Miller's Homebrewing guide recommends
>starting the rest when the wort is 2/3ds of the way through it's
>fermentation. This much I understand, but do I conduct the rest
>in my primary fermenter and transfer after the rest, or should I
>transfer at the end of primary, into secondary and then do the
>diacetyl rest inthe secondary?
Miller is referring to a Narziss fermentation: "...some German
breweries actually raise the temperature of the beer from 48 to
60 (degrees F) when fermentation is about two-thirds finished..."
(Fix writes in his Brewing Techniques article that the temp. is
allowed to increase to 68 degrees F.) This is done in the initial
fermentation, before the beer is racked, to keep the beer in
contact with the yeast until diacetyl is reduced. Miller gives a
guideline when to do this: "when it (the bubbling of the airlock)
is down to once a minute or so, you can reckon that fermentation is
over and it is all right to rack. If you want to do a diacetyl rest,
now is the time."
What I find confusing is when Miller writes under "Professional
Procedures" the following: "If necessary, the temperature is
lowered to about 35 (degrees F) for a "diacetyl rest" of 2 to 3
days after fermentation is over.
In any case, as I suggested a few days ago, Fix's article is a must
read on this topic at:
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html
Cheers
John Murphy
jbm@ll.mit.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:54:56 PST
From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard@hotmail.com>
Subject: Yeast purity
David Lamotte was wondering what "< 1 cfu/ml" meant concerning bacterial
contamination of liquid yeasts. < 1 cfu/ml means there is less than one
"colony-forming unit" per ml of solution. If 1 ml of a test solution is
cultured on an agar plate, there will be less than 1 colony detected
after incubation. In general, 1 bacterial cell would lead to one colony
but does not preclude more than 1 cell clumped together which would
still grow up as one colony.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:17:47 -0500
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin@mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Nitrous oxide
72723.1707@compuserve.com wrote:
NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways similar to CO2. I
would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2.
- -------
NO2 is nitric oxide (1 nitrogens, 2 oxygen). N2O is nitrous oxide
(whip-it/laughing gas--2 nitrogens, 1 oxygen). BIG DIFFERENCE!. Pass NO2
though your beer & it'll eat though your stomach. If the manufacturer of
N2O cartridges doesn't even know what the hell he's selling, then he has no
business being in the business.
NO2 + 2 H2O ---> HNO3 (nitric acid) + H30 (hydronium ion a.k.a. "acid")
- --------------
John B. Biggins Cornell University Medical College
1233 York Ave; Apt 19D Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
New York, NY 10021 Graduate School of Medical Sciences
(212)717-0158 Student -- Program in Pharmacology
"Science, like Nature, must also be tamed
With a view towards its preservation.
Given the same state of integrity
It will surely serve us well."
-- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:19:48 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb@burnsmcd.com>
Subject: No Fruit Flies here
Sorry, I don't have the resources on hand and I can't recall exactly
how process works, but I do have a couple of things to contribute:
Bill writes:
>In summary, one should always use starters when using liquid >(Wyeast)
east. The popular "smack packs" only contain about 50 mL of >yeast
when fresh, which the directions on the pack say should be >stepped up to
at least 12 oz of wort prior to pitching. I'd screwed up by >pitching a
smack pack to gal (roughly 2000 mL) of wort, or about 4X >as much as I
should have.
I would not exactly call it a screw up. Using a starter that was created
from pitching a swollen smak pak in a gallon of wort is still about 40
times better than pitching the swollen smak pak directly into 5 gallons of
wort. Bottom line is that you still used a gallon starter in a five
gallon batch of beer. This is completely adequate. The five gallon batch
of beer doesn*t know or care that you may have slightly under pitched the
gallon starter. It will still contain roughly the same number of
yeast cells.
Mark wrote:
>when I first started all-grain brewing, I used to saccharify as close to
>151 deg f as I could. most of the standard, all-malt o.g. beers finished
>out around 1.010 or 1.011, and I never noticed the worty flavors (but
>maybe I wasn't paying enough attention). rather, I had it in my head
that >these beers needed more "flavor", from all contributors. so I
decided to >start mashing a little hotter, up around 155 deg f for most
beers. now >i'm starting to rethink the >whole thing.
I seriously doubt that many people could detect an increased sweetness
between two supposedly identical brews; one mashed at 151 degrees F and
one mashed 4 degrees higher at 155 degrees F. Theoretically, there should
be an increased dextrine content in the higher temp mash, but common
inconsistencies in home brew practice such as yeast type, pitching volume,
and fermentation temperature would quickly mask these effects. (My
apologies to any bloated egos out there with equally bloated opinions of
their super sensitive palettes :-)
Tom writes about using aluminum foil. I always cover the tops of my
sanitized and dried bottles with a small square of aluminum foil. It
keeps the dust out. I have gotten to the point where I will not even brew
a batch unless I have enough bottles that are ready to go. This has
greatly reduced my stress level at bottle time (have you ever had to
bottle on quick notice because your have to go out of town and then find
out that you didn*t have enough bottles ready?). Anyway, cover them with
foil and store in boxes or rubbermaid totes. They will last pretty much
indefinitely.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:30:59 -0700
From: John Adsit <jadsit@jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: 1968
> Dave Riedel said,
>
> PS re: 1968 - I wouldn't be paranoid about trying this yeast, I used
it
> for a best bitter and it had a wonderful character. I don't
oxygenate.
> I use a venturi tube and then shake the carboy for 10-15 mins.
I agree. I have used 1968 quite a few times, and I have always been
happy with the results. Like Dave, all I do is shake the heck out of
the carboy for aeration. I have never had a final gravity as high as
the 1.019 mentioned in another post.
Remember, too, that 1968 is derived from Fullers of London, and is
designed for cask conditioned ESB's. I have had the pleasure of
hoisting a few cask conditioned Fullers in London, and users trying to
emulate this beer should expect more maltiness than you might find in,
say, a SNPA.
We have to be careful not to commit the "single cause" fallacy when
troubleshooting. Like most situations in our lives, the results of
brewing beer are dependant upon a variety of causes. Poor attenuation
or a sweet taste in the final product can be caused by a number of
factors or combinations of factors. You have to be careful about
assuming that one and only one factor causes a result.
Not that I want to teach a logic class, but another related fallacy is
called "post hoc." First we do something, and when something else
happens later, we tend to assume that what came first caused what came
second. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it's a coincidence. You need to
investigate further to see if there's a true relationship between the
two.
- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit@jeffco.k12.co.us
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:38:19 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: blue corn meal as an adjunct
>Markus Berndt <Markus.Berndt@Colorado.EDU> asks
>I came across a box of blue corn
>meal. Has anyone ever used this and, does it have any effect on the color
>of the resulting beer?
Never have, and I don't think I've heard of anyone using it, either. I
hope if you do, you'll report back.
> Oh, here is another question. Next to the corn meal I found polenta,
>which is coarsly ground corn. Can this be used instead of corn meal or
>flaked maize (of course I will boil it to gelatinize it)?
This has been reported to me as being used successfully (I happily seem to
be a clearing house for CAP). It is pricier than ordinary corn meal. Be
sure to mash any cornmeal with 30% malt for ~20 min. before boiling it and
adding it back to the main mash.
Jeff
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner@umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:03:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: whiskey or whisky
Scott Murman <smurman@best.com> asks:
>While the topic of whiskey is in the air, does anyone know why there
>are two spellings - whisky and whiskey?
I always heard it was because the Scots were too frugal to waste an extra
letter. At least that helps me remember who spells it how.
>From p. 208 of _The Book of Bourbon_, by Regan and Regan, come this, but
with no reason given for the difference: "The basic rule is: The Scots and
Canadians spell the word W-H-I-S-K-Y, whereas Americans and Irish tend to
add an e , makeing it W-H-I-S-K-E-Y. But as with all rules, thereare
exceptions. Federal regulations governing whiskey, for instance, don't
spell the word with the e even though they are home-grown directives. And
neither do George Dickel, Maker's Mark, Old Forester or Early Times use
that e when labeling their bottles, even though they are all American
whiskies."
Jeff
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner@umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:58:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Sanitizing Bottles & Aluminum Foil
Tom
I use foil! My SOP now is when I empty a bottle I immediately clean
it with a squirt of 'softsoap' sitting by the sink, shake around
vigorously to remove any sediment, then rinse. Then, I fill the bottle
with a squirt of bleach soln and fill with cold tap. I cover each
bottle with a square of foil. I store the bottles this way. When
bottling time comes along, I dump the bleach and rinse with my bottle
washer - I reuse the foil and cover the clean bottle until I fill with
beer and cap. Saves at least the step of soaking the bottles just
prior to bottling. Actually, it just spreads it out over time.
Rinsing two cases of bottles takes me about 20 minutes. Sanitizing
AND rinsing used to take at least a couple times as long, including
soak time. My only concern is the couple cases of bleach sitting
around where kids can get at it - not cool, very dangerous.
- -----
Um, I used to say I never cared about making a 'clone' brew, but any
advice on Mad Monk Nut Brown Ale?
Thanks
Matt
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:42:25 -0600
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor@samford.edu>
Subject: Re:nitrogen bubbles
In his response to a N2O questions, Dan Listermann comments about N2
for stouts: " N2 is almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of
a bubble this way so they last longer."
I've seen this comment on the HBD before, but I don't understand how
N2 could get into the bubbles in the first place. The N2 is
introduced through the top of the keg to push the beer out through the
dip tube in the bottom. If N2 is indeed insoluble in beer, how does
it get to the dip tube to come out in the bubbles?
If that's the case, then isn't the real point of a CO2/N2 gas to allow
a lower CO2 partial pressure to permit lower carbonation levels in
kegged beer when the length of the dispensing tube requires a higher
total gas pressure to push the beer out of the tap? If that's the
case, then isn't N2 a red herring when trying to get a thick head?
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:30:31 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner@frco.com
Subject: re: nitrous oxide
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707@compuserve.com>
Subject: Nitrous Oxide
Jeff Hall asks:<Has anyone tried using 'whip-its' Nitrous Oxide
cartridges
designed for making whipped cream to tap a 5 liter minikeg?
I'm thinking of trying it on minikeg of stout ('bottle' conditioned).
Would NO2 gas work in place of pure Nitrogen gas?>
I asked the manufacturer of these cartridges this very question. He
told
me that CO2 forms carbonic acid as it passes through the bubbles. N2
is
almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of a bubble this way so
they
last longer. NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways similar to CO2.
I
would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2.
He did say that the nitric acid has a sweet taste??????????
Dan Listermann dan@listermann.com
Hey, somebody help me out here. I know what nitric acid is and how to
make it. Been there done that. {2 NOx + H2O -> HNO3 + NO(x-1) and 2
NO(x-1) + O2 -> 2 NOx} I think laughing gas which is in the 'whip-its'
is a totally different beast. You do NOT want nitric acid forming in
your lungs while you are have dental work done. Trust me! Nitrous
oxide is N2O and I believe it is very stable. It may not behave like
N2, but I don't think it behaves like CO2/carbonic acid. I don't have
the books to verify this readily available, so rather than
speculate,let me phrase this as a question for our resident chemists.
Is what he said true??
Cheers!
Lou (who has forgotten more chemistry than most people will ever want
to know!) Heavner - Austin, TX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:57 -0500
From: "David C. Harsh" <David.Harsh@uc.edu>
Subject: Brew Stands/Nitrous Oxide/Lighter Side/Cancelling posts
Badger Roullett <branderr@microsoft.com> asked about Brew Stands...
I'm looking for one and here are my options. Most of the people who sell
systems don't sell racks unless they include lots of other bells and
whistles. What I have found:
1. St. P*t's sells a stand available in either iron or stainless for
around $400 in stainless, near $300 iron. It can't be taken apart so it
has to be shipped by truck (about $150 from TX to OH), but does have the
facility for attaching burners and can be mounted on casters. Look at
their catalog for details. I know some people hate them, but when I called
and asked questions, I got precise answers about dimensions.
2. Modesto Brewing Supply sells the "Penquat Brew Tree" which they have
advertised in Zymurgy occasionally (Summer 1996 p. 73, Spring 96 p. 84).
They're tough to get a hold of by phone, but the pictures in Zymurgy look
interesting and I'm awaiting info by mail about the details. You can call
them at 1-800-CXS-BREW. The Penquat can be shipped by UPS, but you have to
assemble it.
3. People like pbs say they do custom work, but I haven't talked to them
about just a stand and don't know if they do stands without the kettles and
other stuff. Likewise for pico-brewing, etc.
4. I'm also considering taking a drawing to Joe Schmoe's welding here in
town and seeing what they'd charge to make a rack for me. My guess is
these small welding shops could do it without too much trouble and the
price could possibly be negoti-beer-ated depending on how much business
they have at the time.
No affiliation with any of the above.
- ---------------------------------------
Jeff Hall asked about Nitrous Oxide
Dan Listermann said "NO2 forms nitric acid...."
Actually, Nitrous Oxide is N2O. My concern about this would be that N2O
decomposes into nitrogen (N2) and free radical oxygen that either
recombines to make oxygen or reacts with anything it finds to oxidize it
rapidly. Something about using a gas that will oxidize your beer just
doesn't seem like a good plan.
- ---------------------------------------
On the lighter side: over the holidays, I managed to use the word "gueuze"
in a game of Scrabble, getting a triple (or would that be tripel?) letter
score for the Z. Luckily, I had my copy of Jackson's Belgian Ale book
(mandatory airport reading) so I could document the word. My goal was
"zymurgy" for a triple word score, but my family has decreed that I can't
use any more dorky beer words. Hmph!
- ---------------------------------------
Rant mode: I've now read about 5 responses telling me that a CFU is a
colony forming unit - if some else answers the question and you see it,
cancel your post, ok? That's why we have the capability. (rant mode off)
Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League, Cincinnati, OH
O-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:54:31 -0500
From: "Franklin.Tom" <frankli1@niehs.nih.gov>
Subject: Sanitizing Bottles and Aluminum
Hi All,
Many thanks to all of you who responded to my question about sanitizing
bottles.
For those of you who may be curious as to the general consensus, everyone
who responded said they had been successful with sanitizing bottles ahead of
time and either:
* wrapping the tops with a piece of aluminum foil
* wrapping the tops with plastic wrap
* hanging the bottles upside down on a special rack to dry and leaving them
there
Great responses from all!
thanks again,
tom
_________________________________________________
Tom Franklin
TPMC Corporation
Macintosh Computer Support
Module/Floor D3&4; E4; F3
NIEHS Information Technology Support Services Contract
Phone: (919) 541-4797; Room E-352
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:07:40 -0800
From: Darren Cousineau <dtcloans@pacbell.net>
Subject: Dry Rice Extract
Does anyone know the S.G. produced by 1 lb. of dry rice extract in one
gallon of water. I can't seem to find any info on this in my docs.
E-mail answers are fine. Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:06:20 EST
From: YYZCLAYTON@aol.com
Subject: Re: CFU's/ NG?
From: Eric.Fouch@steelcase.com
Subject: CFU's/ NG?
>My question is the best (safest, cheapest, easiest) way to run the gas
>to a 30K burner I scabbed out of an old water heater? I got a flexible
>gas line, like the ones used for appliances, but I have no way to
>connect to the 3/8 reverse flare fittings on the burner to the 1/2 pipe
>threads, unless I buy an $80 water heater regulator. New water heaters
>only cost $120!
>Then I had a thought- Why can't I terminate the ball valve with a hose
>barb, and use that tan rubber gas hose like the stuff we used in college
>chem lab?
>We currently have it in our lab here at work, to. It is made for NG,
>very flexible, and I could disconnect it and store it in the basement
>when not in use.
Eric,
I use a 30K BTU Superb burner running off the furnace NG line in my garage. I
went to the local bottle gas company and picked up a gas valve that has a 1/2"
pipe thread on one end and a 3/8" flare on the other. Then I purchased a 10'
(thick black) gas hose with 3/8" flare fittings crimped on to each end of the
hose. This connects NG valve to the burner's gas valve. I have a couple of
3/8" flare caps to protect the fittings and protect against any curious kids
"accidentally" turning on the gas valve when I'm not around.
I wouldn't use the hose you are talking about. It is way too easy to kink or
puncture and can fall off of the barb fitting near the burner causing a fire.
The gas hose I have is REALLY tough and with the flare fittings I don't have
to worry about it falling off.
Where is the gas orifice in your setup? You don't want to run straight off of
the gas line without an orifice. It has been a while since I've taken a water
heater apart so I can't remember if it was in the burner or in the valve.
>Also, since NG is low pressure, low flow, I should be able to get some
>flame control from the ball valve shut-off, right? I mean, for the most
>part, I'll want to go full bore anyway, boiling 7-10 gallons at 30K BTU,
right?
I don't think you want to control the gas flow at the beginning of the line.
What if for some reason the pressure drops (kink the hose if you use the tan
burner hose) and the flame backs up the hose? Again, a possible fire. I'd
try to have a valve with orifice right at the burner for control. The bottle
gas companies have all kinds of valves and fittings. If you take the burner
in I'm sure they can fix you up.
I normally boil 7 1/2 gallons of runnings and have the gas valve on my superb
about 2/3 open to keep a good rolling boil. I also light the flame (running
very low) after collecting enough runnings to cover the bottom of my 1/2 bbl
boiler. I keep turning the flame up as I sparge and get a boil typically
about 10 min after the sparge using this procedure.
Good luck and hope this helps,
Joe C.
Farmington Hills, MI USA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:16:15 -0600
From: "Siegi Chavez Jr." <siegi@ti.com>
Subject: Millenial Barley Wine / Plastic Fermenters
Greetings All!
I have noticed a number of posts recently from people planning
Milennial Barley Wines. I am about to bottle mine, and thought I would
throw the recipe out there for the collective.
All Grain / 3 Gallons
12.5 lbs pale ale malt
1.0 lbs crystal malt (40 L)
0.5 lbs dextrin malt
1.5 ozs each Fuggles and EKG (~5.5% AA)
Single infusion at 154 F in a 5 gallon Gott cooler, at about 1.1
qts/lb. Sparged to 4 gallons, 90 minute boil. Added Fuggles for 60
mins, EKG 1/2 oz each for 30 and 15 mins. Added Irish moss at 15 mins,
chilled and topped up to 3 gallons. Open fermented in 4 gallon
stainless pot, transferred to glass secondary afetr 10 days. I pitched
with Nottingham dry (quickly becoming a favorite), OG 1.100, GF 1.013.
Taste test from the gravity reading was superb. Malt, hops, esters... a
little bit of everything. All kind of understated, though. I plan on
dry hopping with the last 1/2 oz of EKG and then bottling. Now I wonder
how long I can make 3 gallons last...
Quick question, as well. Does anyone know of a source for plastic
cylindroconical fermenters in the 1 to 3 barrel range? I haven't got
the boiler and mash tuns yet, but I know those can be worked out.
Private e-mail is fine, and if anyone wants the information just dropme
a line and I'll let you know what I heard.
Thanks,
S Chavez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:30:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Nitrous Oxide
*ChemGeek alert*
I read that someone was concerned with the quality of information on
this forum, so I'll suggest:
First
N2 = molecular nitrogen = major component in air
NO = nitric oxide = nasty colorless gas
NO2 = nitrogen dioxide = nasty brown gas
HNO3 = nitric acid
N2O = dinitrogen oxide = nitrous oxide = colorless gas, anesthetic,
and aerosol propellant
>From Advanced Inorganic Chemistry, Cotton and Wilkinson, 5th, pp.
320,321:
"Nitrous oxide is relatively unreactive.... At elevated temperatures
it decomposes to nitrogen and oxygen...and supports combustion."
>He told me that CO2 forms carbonic acid as it passes through the
bubbles.
Yes, see Adv. Inorg. Chem, 5th, pp 245.
>N2 is almost inert and cannot pass through the walls of a bubble this
way so they last longer. NO2 forms nitric acid and acts in ways
similar to CO2.
I don't know about the first statement. I thought there was a
difference in the solubility of CO2 vs. N2 in aqueous solutions, and
this caused the bubbles to act differently (I guess that is saying the
same thing). But N2O is 'relatively unreactive' and does not form
HNO3 in water. Otherwise every time some kid sucks on a whip-it vial
his insides would melt. However, NO2 = nitrogen dioxide (which is not
the nitrous oxide in whip-its) does react with water to give HNO3 (See
Adv. Inorg. Chem., 5th, pp. 324).
>I would have to say that NO2 is no substitute for N2.
I don't know about N2O (nitrous oxide) as a substitute for N2, but NO2
is NOT a substitute for N2.
>He did say that the nitric acid has a sweet taste??????????
Ouch
So I didn't give an answer, 'Is N2O (nitrous oxide) a substitute for
N2?' but only clarified the question. Typical ChemGeek procedure.
Matt
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:51:38 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy@geocities.com>
Subject: Stainless steel screen
Brewers,
Inspired by Jack Schmidling's web page, I am putting together my own
version of an EasyMasher (R). Does anyone know of a good source of
stainless steel screen? Jack's page mentions kitchen strainers. What
have the rest of you DIYers done? Copper or brass would also be good, I
guess.
Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:04:10 -0600
From: "John Weerts" <jweerts@kcbiermeisters.org>
Subject: Kansas City Bier Meisters RHC Feb 19th/20th
The Kansas City Bier Meisters are pleased to announce its 16th Annual
Homebrew Competition. The event is sponsored by Bacchus and Barleycorn,
Ltd. and is sanctioned by the American Homebrewers Association as a regional
competition. The competition is a Qualifying Event for the Masters
Championship of Amateur Brewers and a qualifier for the Mo-Kan Brewer of the
Year Competition.
Judging will be Feb. 19 and 20 at the Flying Monkey Brewery in Merriam, Kan.
Awards will be announced following the Best of Show judging and a Texas
Round-Up Dinner prepared by Professor Danial Turner, CWC/Club Chef.
Special guests George and Laurie Fix will give a talk on "Non-additive
Brewing" over breakfast on Feb. 20 and a pub-crawl featuring eight local
brewpubs in also on the agenda.
More information may be obtained at the KC Bier Meisters homepage
http://www.kcbiermeisters.org or by contacting Competition Director Steven
Ford competition@kcbiermeisters.org
In Brewing,
John R. Weerts
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:02:25 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Millennium Barley Wine
> this is going to be good stuff new years
> eve. start planning your millenium party now.
Yeah, too bad this new years eve isn't the change of the
millennium, though.
cheers,
-Alan
- --
Alan McKay Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT 613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay@nortelnetworks.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:00:58 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: Aluminum Foil
> One of the Yeast (Genetics)
> scientists told me that this helps to keep bacteria out. Bacteria, he
> explained, likes to land in a straight line down and doesn't do so well
> going up and under things (like aluminum foil wrapped around the top of a
> flask).
My intuition told me this a long time ago ...
> Out of curiosity, does anyone out there do this with bottles? I like
> brewing but I hate bottling. By the end of a day of sanitizing, rinsing,
> filling and capping bottles I'm sick of it all. If I could break that into
> two separate processes by a few days, that would be great.
I used to do it a lot when I bottled, but it became a pain in the butt
to handle all those little wee pieces of foil. What I ended up doing
is lining the bottom of the beer case with paper towel and just turning
the bottles upside down into it.
Now I keg my beer.
cheers,
-Alan
- --
Alan McKay Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT 613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay@nortelnetworks.com
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #2934, 01/22/99
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