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HOMEBREW Digest #2826
HOMEBREW Digest #2826 Thu 17 September 1998
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Enzyme temperature dependence. Phosphate cleaners, Clinitest (X2) Unibroue skunk ("David R. Burley")
Dry Hopping at Cold Temps (Charley Burns)
hop beers ("Bryan L. Gros")
Queen of Beers - Send the Beers NOW! (Charley Burns)
WhiteBread British Ale Yeast (Charley Burns)
RE: Why do mash enzymes work and chemistry of head retention (Jeremy Price)
Wyeast 1010 (Markus Berndt)
re: orange lights? (Jon Macleod)
Re: Things to do in Denver when your drunk (Mark Tumarkin)
KROC World Brewers Forum (The Brews Traveler)
Alt malts,attenuation (Dean Fikar)
Duvel recipe (Jim Welsh)
Competition Announcement (Jim Hinken)
Decoction mashers: check my decoction. (please) (Jon Bovard)
Asahi Breweries ("Philip J Wilcox")
Christmas Brew (IAN FORBES)
Sparge Water Temperature ("George De Piro")
on fresh versus dry hops (Jack Schmidling)
Re: Alts and Sticke ("Jim Busch")
Some environmentalist nonsense about algae blooms (Jim Cave)
Dunkelweizen (Al Korzonas)
Ice caves (USA) (Dave Johnson)
Re: Orange light doesn't skunk? (Dan Cole)
Re: Alt yeast ("Houseman, David L")
Altbier Attenuation Apology (Al Korzonas)
Mead priming (Al Korzonas)
Clinitest again... (Al Korzonas)
No you're not crazy: the HBD server went down at app 3pm 9/13 and returned
to life noon 9/14. Our apologies for the outtage...
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:11:48 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley@compuserve.com>
Subject: Enzyme temperature dependence. Phosphate cleaners, Clinitest (X2) Unibroue skunk
Brewsters:
Jenny and Peter Stockham ask about why the barley malt enzymes
have an apparent optimum at 70 degrees C when in nature, seeds
never experience these temperatures. Ignoring the fact that this
optimum is different for various enzymes and that the optimum
represents a competition between rate of reaction and rate of
denaturization, I suspect the answer lies in the fact that the
enzymes' rates of reaction are this high so that they can have a
reactivity at 10C ( soil temperature) on the order of days, which
represent the normal cell growth rate time scale. Using the rule of
thumb known to all chemists that a reaction rate drops by a factor
of two for every decrease of 10 degrees C we see: e.g. 1 hour at 70C
would take 2 hours at 60, 4 hours at 50, 8 hours at 40, 16 hours at
30, 32 hours at 20 and 64 hours ( 2 1/2 days) at 10 C.
That's my guess.
- -------------------------------------
Jeremy Bergsman asks about phosphate cleaners ( e.g. TSP) and
if they do more than increase the pH, like lye and bleach.
Yes, Phosphate cleaners ( called "builders" in the detergent trade)
do increase the pH and they also provide anions ( various phosphate
ions) to adsorb onto dirt particles, esp clays. These dirt particles
become anionically charged and are more easily dispersed,
since they repel each other and provide the opportunity for the
water molecule dipoles to surround the particle and prevent
re-precipitation. At high calcium concentration and lower pHs
I suppose it is possible that various calcium salts could
precipitate, although this is not a real problem in the cleaning
world if sufficient phosphate cleaner is used, to my knowledge.
Note also that these phosphate cleaners are not much good
at dispersing a lot of oils and the like by themselves, but the
pH building ( i.e. increasing) helps the organic detergents -
which dissolve their oily heads in the oils and greases to work
efficiently by keeping their carboxylic or sulfonate tails ionic.
- -----------------------------------
Greg Lorton Says:
>"Last weekend I brewed a sweet stout.... I included honey
>and brown sugar in the brew kettle.... and had a 60-minute
>saccharification rest that averaged 161F (~72C)
>Actually the mash temperature varied from 159 to 164F,
>but seemed to average around 161. The mash passed
>the iodine test. The OG was 1.059.
>... I transferred to secondary on the fifth day. The gravity
>reading when I transferred was 1.032, for an apparent
>attenuation of around 46%.
>This is the highest saccharification temperature that I've ever used,
>and its the lowest apparent attenuation I've ever gotten.....
>The questions I have are:
>1. Is this apparent attenuation reasonable for a 161F saccharification
>temp?
>2. Is this as far as the fermentation is going to go?
>3. Should I add some champagne yeast to try to get a bit more
>fermentation?
>The last thing I want is to bottle this beer in a few weeks and then
have
a
>series of exploding bottles in the garage a week or two after that. Any
>experience, anecdotes, and comments are appreciated!!! "
Greg, this is the classic case for the use of Clinitest that amateur
brewers often ( and not often professional brewers) face . You
are trying a new recipe, you have added adjuncts and you mashed
at a temperature clearly outside your experience and outside
most recommendations. Most of all the mash temperature varied.
You don't have a clue what the FG should be. Under these
circumstances a hydrometer is nearly useless.
What can you do to keep from bottling bombs?
Go to your pharmacy and purchase ( you may have to special
order - three days usually) a Clinitest KIT ( NOT the Clinitest STIX).
This will allow you to determine the amount of fermentable sugar
in your beer. If you get more than a reading of <1/4% glucose,
[using drops of beer not your urine 8^) ] your fermentation is not
finished and you should not bottle.
If you get a reading higher than <1/4%, chances are the low FAN
due to the adjunct addition, early racking and the like reduced
the yeast population and slowed or stuck the fermentation.
Check it for a couple of days with Clinitest again and if the
fermentable sugar is not decreasing steadily ( you may not see
activity in the air lock for a while, since you racked), then you
should develop a plan for adding a new yeast starter and perhaps
some yeast nutrients.
Let us know how it turns out
- ---------------------------
Dan Cole asks about orange lights being used at Unibroue
to brew their new Pils. They claim this allows them to use
clear bottles.
Well, it is true that green/blue/UV light is the optimum skunking
wavelength and orange light may work in the brewery, but not in the
commercial world where, as AlK claims - fluorescent lights in
a display case will skunk beers.
Unibroue, being pretty smart, probably uses isomerized hop
extracts like Miller Brewing, so they can get away with clear bottles
for marketing and not be worried about skunking.
- -----------------------------------------
SteveA says:
> fails to explain the correlation of higher Clinitest
>readings with stronger and more dextrinous commercial
beers or my strong ale.
>Obviously more data would be needed for me to support
this correlation fully
>too.
I guess I missed how you determined how dextrinous these
beers were - other than tasting. I do not believe tasting
is a sufficient method to distinguish dextrin content from low
sugar level content - do you? In the absence of knowing what
the Clinitest result was at the end of the fermentation, your
strong ale information could be easily explained if the higher
alcohol content caused premature flocculation and your
carbonation did not complete fully -as I noted before.
Let's limit this discussion to what I have been observing for a few
decades. Clinitest is a useful asset to home brewers for
determining the end of the fermentation. I have never said
anything about using it for determing the dextrin content of
beers or being used on commercial or other bottled beers.
As you say:
> What is in question is Clinitest result interpretation as regards
>the completion of fermentation.
I agree that this should be the only subject of discussion and that
Clinitest results should be applied under these circumstances to
answer this question only at the end of the fermentation - not on
bottled beer and in other areas, as a supposed test of my
observation.
Please, when you repeat your various fermentations, check
the % glucose and see if all of your beers that are properly
fermented dry do not show <1/4% glucose at the end of the
fermentation. Then check the Clinitest results of the bottled
beers. Chances are, if you did not use an actively fermenting
primer AND you used glucose for a primer, the bottled beer
results will be higher % glucose than the finished beer.
This experiment will go a ways towards proving if high
alcohol beers have higher than <1/4% Clinitest finishes,
as you contend, or not. I normally operate at OG = 1.065 - 1.070
(would you call this a strong ale?) - but have gone to higher
OGs on numerous occasions and made the same observation
that a properly finished beer ( i.e. rousing, dropping, correct
yeast for the higher gravities, etc.) finishes at <1/4% glucose
Lagered beers, with true lager yeast, finish at 0% glucose,
in many cases, despite the fact that in some cases they were
mashed at 158F and were highly dextrinous beers.
This does not square with your contention.
I'll look forward to your and others' results.
- ----------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202@compuserve.com
Dave_Burley@compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 12:00 PDT
From: caburns@egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Dry Hopping at Cold Temps
I just don't have the patience I need to be a good brewer. I want to drink
the beer now!
My last batch of pale ale was a week in primary and 10 days in secondary
with an ounce of EKG. Had a very pleasant hop aroma/flavor. Well this time I
kegged it after only 4 days on the EKGs and I have almost no hop aroma
(otherwise brewed exactly same, even same batch of hops). So I stuck another
ounce of hops in a boiled muslin bag and stuffed the whole thing in the keg
on top of the beer.
Question is, will the hop aromas be extracted more slowly at 40F in the
fridge than they would at 70F in my basement? Ie, should I remove the keg
and bring it up to room temp for faster flavor enhancement?
Charley (impatient) in N. Cal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:44:59 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros@bigfoot.com>
Subject: hop beers
Mark Tomusiak <tomusiak@amgen.com> writes:
>Greetings all...I just found an interesting article for those who might
>be considering making beer with green hops. It is on Michael Jackson's
>beer page, and apparently there is British brewery that makes a special
>beer each year with freshly picked green hops. The article can be found
>
>http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000114.html
Last year (and hopefully this year), Sierra Nevada made a beer with
fresh hops called (I think) harvest ale. Probably only available on draft
locally. I'm not sure, but I think they used green hops, and I know the
beer was great.
Also of interest to hopheads, I just tried a beer from Bear Republic
(in Headsburg, CA) called XP. Great cascade hop aroma, flavor and
bitterness, in the vein of Sierra Nevada. Give it a try...
- Bryan
Bryan Gros gros@bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 12:04 PDT
From: caburns@egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Queen of Beers - Send the Beers NOW!
Reminder - QOB is now accepting entries at Jack Russell Brewing company. See:
<http://haze.innercite.com/html/queen_of_beer__98.html>
All beer entries must be received between September 16th and September 26th,
1998.
Ship to:
Jack Russell Brewing Company
2380 Larsen Road
Camino, CA 95709
(530) 644-4722
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 13:42 PDT
From: caburns@egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: WhiteBread British Ale Yeast
I used this yeast on a second runnings mild (oh the perils of parti-gyle
brewing, what a long day *that* was). This wort started at 1.032 (a really
mild mild). I created a two quart starter from the RTP vial. The whole
primary seemed to be over in about 3 days which didn't surprise me. I
sniffed the beer at day 5 and it stinked to high heaven of diacetyl. I've
become very sensitive to that odor/flavor due to a problem I'm having with
too much of it in about every other beer I've been making for the last 6 months.
Anyway, a little birdie (named Brian) told me that this yeast is notorious
for producing diacetyl. Another little birdie (named Terry) said I should
just leave the beer on the yeast for awhile to see if it would re-absorb it.
So that's what I'm doing. But for how long? And should I rouse the yeast
periodically? Its still in the primary for now.
Would it make sense to pitch another yeast on top of it (another strain like
1056) to try and have the new yeast absorb some of that diacetyl? I have
about 16 oz of Wyeast 2206 and a full quart of W-1056 slurry available.
Charley (all buttered up) in N. Cal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:17:51 -0400
From: Jeremy Price <pricejy@email.uc.edu>
Subject: RE: Why do mash enzymes work and chemistry of head retention
Jenny and peter Stockham brought up a good point about mash temperature and
the temperature that the amylases are active in nature. Clearly grain does
not germinate and sprout at 65 deg C. The Lowest temperature we brewers
mash at is 65 deg C. So what's the deal?
Raising the temperature in many enzyme driven reactions will increase the
rate at which the reaction occurs. This is true until the temperature
causes a conformational change in the 3-D structure of the protein. (all
enzymes are proteins) pH also affects the 3-D structure of proteins, which
is another reason pH of the mash is important. When the structure of the
protein is changed, the enzyme can no longer catalyze the reaction. Some
enzymes are very heat stable, others denature at lower temperatures.
Amylases seem to tolerate temperature better than most enzymes, however at
these higher temps, the do begin to break down in a matter of hours.
Amylases are active at lower temps, but the rate of the reaction is MUCH
slower. For a small seed this is not a problem, but obviously for brewers
the rate would be to slow to get full starch conversion.
As far as an evolutionary reason that amylases are "temperature stable"
here it goes. Plants do not regulate their own temperatures, they are
subjected to drastic temperature changes from day to night. It only makes
sense that plant proteins may be a bit more stable. This is just a
thought
Jeremy Price
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:40:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: Markus Berndt <Markus.Berndt@Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Wyeast 1010
Hi all,
I stopped at the local homebrew supply store today and noticed a few new
products from Wyeast. Among these was Wyeast 1010 American Hefeweizen. Is
this the same as the White Labs American Hefeweizen aka Widmer aka Zum
Uerige?
- Markus
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:21:01 -0400
From: marli@bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re: orange lights?
I can't answer the bio' side of this, but "orange" strikes me as curious
from a light stand point. I question the advantage orange wavelength
would have over more red. Is the point to remove bluer wavelengths?
Have they decided that's what skunks beer? So the orange protects it
during packaging; what about distribution and sale? Do they warn
customers to store it in orange light? Sounds like marketing to me.
Mike
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:08:42 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Things to do in Denver when your drunk
JPullum wrote:
>i am going to denver for the great american beer festival , any must
hit
>places and special recommendations? i have allready heard of falling
rock
>taproom for belgians, any others?
I read your post this morning and thought, wow, perfect timing. I was
planning on posting this evening about the GABF and the Falling Rock.
I am planning to be at the GABF as well. Some of you may remember that
last year I suggested that any HBD'rs going to the GABF try to get
together, meet each other, and have a few beers. Brian Rezac picked up
the idea and arranged with Chris Black, owner of the Falling Rock, to
host a sort of home away from home for the HBD in the downstairs cigar
room at the Rock. It was a very comfortable place, couches and easy
chairs, privacy, real nice. We had some great times, I particularly
enjoyed getting to meet Ken Schwartz, and Jethro's alter ego, Rob
Moline. And Brian Rezac is a great guy, as he's proving again for sure!
I say that because it looks like we are going to be able to do it again!
Brian talked with Chris and he is willing to offer his place to us
again. I'm sure Brian will be posting in the near future as details are
firmed up. Right now it looks like the time will be Saturday night.
Brian has already talked to the folks at LeftHand Brewing and they are
going to be donating a keg of their Sawtooth Ale for our pleasure, and
Brian is still working on some other breweries So I hope to see as
many of you as possible there. It's really nice to be able to put faces
with the names we've come to know through the digest. It's truly amazing
what a great group we are, and this is a great chance to get to know
each other better, not to mention maybe share some homebrews.
I'd like to hear from any of you planning to go. It would be great to
arrange a time to meet during the festival and sample some of the
incredible beers that will be available. The GABF arranges some small
groups led by some notables of the beer world to focus on different
styles or whatever is of special interest . I think you led one last
year Rob, would you be willing to do that again for an HBD group?
Hope to see you soon,
Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:32:02 -0600
From: The Brews Traveler <BrewsTraveler@adamsco-inc.com>
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum
The Keg Ran Out Club presents:
_________________________________________________________________
"Real Old Beers"
_________________________________________________________________
at the "Fourth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)"
Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), presents an educational forum
with:
Ray Daniels
President of the Craft Beer Institute and author of "Designing
Great Beers" and "101 Ideas for Homebrew Fun".
Brad Kraus
1997 GABF Kolsch Bronze Medal winner and Brewmaster at Wolf
Canyon Brewing Company.
This landmark event entering its fourth year has brought together
the brewing community for an evening of education, discussion,
fellowship, and fun!
Previous Forum(sm) participants have had the opportunity to
participate in discussions concerning Barley Wines, Wit beers,
English Ales and Continental Pilseners from world-renown brewers
and authors.
This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and
international brewers, sample fine beers, and win door prizes.
The "KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited
so RSVP ASAP!
______________________________________________________________________
When: 7pm Thursday, October 1, 1998
Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
1550 Court Pl, Denver Colorado, 303-893-3333
Cost: FREE!
RSVP: 303-460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or BrewsTraveler@adamsco-inc.com
Web: http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/wbf98.html
______________________________________________________________________
The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by:
The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC)
The American Homebrewers Association
The Birko Corporation
The Homebrew Hut
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:41:14 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar@flash.net>
Subject: Alt malts,attenuation
I must say that I've enjoyed the recent thread on alts and have learned
a lot. First, let me second the excellent recommendation from Al K to
use munich malt as a base, particularly if you like dry maltiness which
I prefer to a caramelly-sweet malt profile. Second, you can brew a dry,
crisp, malty alt without getting to the 78-80% apparent attenuation
recommended by some - if you use munich malts as your base and hop
aggressively. My last batch (my best so far) had an OG of 1.050 and an
FG of 1.014 for only about 72% AA but came out very dry and malty due, I
believe, to the use of DWC munich as the base malt. The relatively low
attenuation contributed to a nice full-bodied beer. Just my $0.02
worth...
Dean Fikar <dfikar@flash.net> -
enjoying the arrival of sub-100 degree temps in Ft. Worth, TX
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:47:18 -0500
From: Jim Welsh <jwelsh@execpc.com>
Subject: Duvel recipe
I am attempting to make a homebrewers version of Duvel. From what I
understand this is a difficult beer to "clone". Does anyone know the
IBU's for Duvel and/or have any tips to making this classic? Yeast ideas
are also appreciated.
Thanks
Jim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Hinken <jhinken@accessone.com>
Subject: Competition Announcement
The Brews Brothers, Seattle's oldest homebrewing club, announces the
Novembeerfest 1998 homebrewing competition. The competition will be held
Saturday, November 7 and Sunday, November 8 (if necessary) at the Larry's
Homebrewing Supply, 7405 S. 212th St. #103, Kent, WA 98032
Started in 1991, Novembeerfest has grown from a local competition to the
most respected competition in the Pacific Northwest. This year's
competition will be one of the final qualifying events for the Master's
Competition of Amateur Brewing. First place winners in eighteen designated
Qualifying Styles will receive an invitation to enter the MCAB in that
style. For more information about the MCAB, visit the MCAB web page at
http://hbd.org/mcab/
Entries will be accepted from all Beer Judge Certification Program beer
style categories. Cider and mead entries will not be accepted this year.
The BJCP style guidelines may be viewed at
http://www.bjcp.org/style-guide.html. Three bottles are required for entry
and the entry fee is U.S.$5. The standard AHA entry form and bottle labels
may be used or contact Rob Nelson at the number below and entry forms will
be faxed to you. Entries will be accepted between October 12 and October
31, 1998. Entries may be shipped to
Jim Hinken
24211 4th Place West
Bothell, WA. 98021
425-483-9324
Entries may also be dropped off at:
Larry's Homebrewing Supply, 7405 S. 212th St. #103,Kent, WA 98032, 206-872-6846
Evergreen Brewing Supply, 12121 N.E. Northup Way, Suite 210, Bellevue, WA
98005, 206-882-9929
Cascade Brewing Supplies, 224 Puyallup Ave., Tacoma, WA 98421, 253-383-8980
Visit our web site at http://www.brewsbrothers.org.
Interested Judges may contact Jim Hinken by e-mail at jhinken@accessone.com
or by phone at 425-483-9324
For additional information, contact
Jim Hinken
24211 4th Place West
Bothell, WA. 98021
425-483-9324
e-mail: jhinken@accessone.com
or
Rob Nelson
Post Office Box 1016
Duvall, WA 98019-1016
Phone: (425) 788-0271
e-mail: rob_nelson@email.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:15:39 +1000
From: Jon Bovard <jonbovard@geocities.com>
Subject: Decoction mashers: check my decoction. (please)
Hi all.
Here In Australia, the malts are modified to the point of stupidity, so
anything involving extended protein rests is tantamount to putting your
wort in a guilottine.
I was thus going to try the following schedule for my upcoming alt.
Times and temps as follows
23litre Alt
3.5kg L.Munich (5L/13EBC) malt (higly mod)
1 kg Pale malt (2L/5EBC) high mod
500g Wheat malt (5EBC)
50 g Choclate
250 g 280EBC Crystal
O.G 1.048~
30 Minutes 60C (140f)
Pull decoct at mash in raise to 70C hold 10 minutes then to boil and
hold for 10 minutes. Return to main mash
30 Minutes 70C (159f)
At 45 minute mark pull second thin decoction, boil for 10 and return.
Raise to 75C (168f) and continue as normal.
My main question is will these rest times give satisfactory emulation of
say a 66C(152F) rest at 1 hour??
Criticisms of grain bill/times/method/personal odor welcome!!!
Jon
Brisbane
australia
**HOME OF THE REMAINING DUFF BEER CANS**
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:09:54 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox@cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Asahi Breweries
From: Philip J Wilcox@CMS on 09/16/98 08:09 AM
Dear HBD,
My brewing partner and best friend is currently back in school working on
his MBA. His current business case is on the Asahi Breweries. We were
wondering if there was anybody out there in Cyber land that knows alot
about this brewery, its operations, and Market/Marketing stratigies?
Philip J Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewery
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:19:04 -0400
From: IAN FORBES <IFORBES@BCBSCT.COM>
Subject: Christmas Brew
A question for the collective;
I am interested in brewing a Christmas Ale. I recently read an article in
BYO in which the author indicates that he brews his Christmas brews in
May (in order for all of the spice additions to mellow and blend). Is it to
late in the year to brew a Christmas type ale? If it's not to late, then does
anyone have a really, really good extract recipe to share (speciality
grains ok)? If it is to late, does anyone have any recommendations for a
substitute (a recipe would again be appreciated)? Private email
welcomed of course, but if you have the mother of all holiday brew
recipes, I read the Digest every day so I will see it there as well.
Thanks!
Ian
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 98 08:29:43 PDT
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro@fcc.net>
Subject: Sparge Water Temperature
Hi all,
Jack recommends using very hot sparge water to keep the grain in the
lauter tun at the proper temperature. There is a problem with this idea.
Pouring nearly boiling water onto the grain bed will cause localized
heating at the top of the tun. This can lead to both excessive tannin
and starch extraction from the grains. If you do not acidify your sparge
water (and it has medium to high residual alkalinity) tannin extraction
will be worse.
My grain bed is always down around 158F (70C) by the end of the sparge.
I'd rather have it there than too high. Starchy, astringent beer is not
my goal.
Jack does mention that the sparge water loses quite a bit of heat in the
transfer
from hot liquor tank to lauter tun. It could be that his sparge water
is not as hot as
his post implied, which could explain why he doesn't perceive problems
with his
technique. It would be best to measure the temp of your sparge water as
it enters
the tun. You may find it quite a bit cooler than you thought, especially
if using
a pump, long plumbing, and/or a sparge arm.
Have fun!
George de Piro (Nyack, NY)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:03:48 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf@mc.net>
Subject: on fresh versus dry hops
Peter.Perez@smed.com
" So if you have a pile of dry hops in front of you that you weighed out
to 1 oz. or was weighed out o 1 oz. by your homebrew supply shop, you
could just lay out a pile of fresh hops the same size...
"Is there something that I am missing here that trashes my theory?
Don't think so. When I use my homegrown hops I only weigh the first
batch. Then I put it into a bucket and mark to level. From then on,
I just measure by volume.
The only problem with the green hops is that it is heavier and would
tend to compress and overweigh.
js
-
Visit our WEB pages: http://user.mc.net/arf
ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:20:43 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim@victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: Alts and Sticke
Jeremy's post on Alt was certainly an interesting malt bill. Bills
that focus on pils malt such as this one are probably from the larger
Alt brewers and not the small hausbraueries in the Altstadt that we
craft brewers strive to create. Some even use color beer to adjust
the final color, this is concentrated dark beer.
To brew a sticke, I would suggest an OG of 12.5-13P, all Munich malts
and 40-45 BUs of Hallertau/Spalt/Tettnang. Dry hop or finish hop
with 1/2 oz of similar hops. I have never been at the Altstadt when
a sticke was being served so this is a summary from what Jackson has
written.
Drinking alts in the Altstadt is one of the finer beer drinking
experiences one can have. Then again so is drinking local
specialities in Munich, Franconia, Brugge, Beersel and London.
Prost!
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:00:08 -0700
From: Jim Cave <cave@psc.org>
Subject: Some environmentalist nonsense about algae blooms
George de Piro on the subject of TSP, comments about the laws governing it
and "...Some environmentalist nonsense about algae blooms..." as being the
reason for the law. This is hardly environmentalist nonsense, but rather
limnological fact that phosphate based detergents historically have caused
significant algal blooms in rivers and lakes. The book "The Algal Bowl" is
a good read on this subject. Phosphate is a limiting nutrient in many
oligotrophic (low productive) lakes and a small increase can cause profound
changes to the ecology of the lake. The die-off of algae and macrophytic
plants and subsequent rot in the fall and winter can result in very low
oxygen and signficant die-off of fish. I'm not that "up" on the subject,
but I believe there were some changes to laws governing the composition of
laundry detergents and such.
Jim Cave (struggling to remember my 4th year limnology class 20 years
ago).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz@xnet.com>
Subject: Dunkelweizen
Jeff writes:
>They are also bringing in
>Dunkelweizenmalz, that is, dark wheat malt, which should make it possible
>to make Dunkelweizenbier without any roasted malt, especially with the dark
>Munich, just like in Germany.
I just wanted to point out that Weyermann also makes a light and dark
Munich (as well as a Vienna!) malt and a dark wheat malt. Also, it's
important to remember that very few Dunkelweizens in Germany have any
roasty character at all (I tasted a good dozen Dunkelweizens and only
one or two had a noticeable roasty character). Finally, the traditional
way to make a Dunkelweizen is not with dark wheat malt, but rather
pale wheat malt and Munich malt. Most Dunkelweizens really taste like
a cross between a Weizen and a Munchner Dunkel (traditionally made with
100% Munich malt).
All the pieces fit together nicely, don't they?
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz@xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:42:48 -0400
From: Dave Johnson <djohnso@OPIE.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Ice caves (USA)
Greeting all,
As a point of intereset, there are true ice caves in the
lower 48....in of ALL places, Iowa!! Here is a URL
with a 'brief' description of their morphology and how
they work....
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/biology/algae/html/About_Bixby.html
I was fortunate to do a few years of research within
their influence.
My apologies for the cheezy schematic, I made it
before I had PhotoShop. It is truly a cool sight to see
and stand in a 35F fog rolling from the mouth of a
cave on a 95F muggy Iowa day in Aug.!!
I'm sure glad Augy B. didn't know about them!!
Regards,
- --
Dave Johnson aka Tall Dave
djohnso@opie.bgsu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:06:34 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole@roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Orange light doesn't skunk?
George De Piro said:
> Dan says that he has heard that Unibroue is manufacturing their new
> Pilsner under orange lights to protect it from skunking during its
> time in the brewery. It is packaged in clear bottles.
>
> If this is true, it is one of the most absurd things I have heard.
> What will happen to the beer once it leaves the brewery?
Actually, the article went on to say that the bottles were being shipped in
a unique bottle carrier that was light-tight. It went on to say, if the
bottles weren't mishandled in bars (pulled out of the case and put into a
bucket of ice under flourescent lights), when the customer opened the
6-pack carrier would be the first time that it saw "real" light.
> It is more likely that they are using chemically reduced isoalpha acid
> extract for hopping the beer. These extracts are light-proof. They
> are also called "tetra hops" and a few other things. It is even more
> likely that they want the beer to skunk so that it tastes more like
> Molson, in which case they are using regular hops and allowing
> chemistry to take its course.
I seriously doubt this. Unibroue is quickly becoming a very respected brand
and as I understand it is very traditional in its brewing techniques (I
have no affiliation, nor have I had the pleasure of tasting any of their
products).
Also, for information regarding this orange light effect, Spencer Thomas
referred me to:
http://realbeer.com/spencer/bottle.html
Thanks,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:12 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman@unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Alt yeast
Jermey asks Re: Widmer Hefeweizen/Zum Uerige yeast.
>
> Does anyone have any experience wrt ferment temp for this yeast for an
> alt?
Primary fermenation should be low for an ale, low 50's will work with
these yeasts. Lagering is like any lager, as cold as you can go and not
freeze the beer. My alts lager at around 36oF-40oF depending on which
fridge I put them in; can't get much lower on these. With 60's for
primary and 50's for lagering I've found they are too ale like to be
true alts. And yes, I have been there.
Dave Houseman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:09:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz@xnet.com>
Subject: Altbier Attenuation Apology
Jim writes:
>Now, Al and I have had discussions in the past regarding the
>attenuation (ADA) of Alts and I have to again disagree with him and
>side with the data presented by Piendl (a noted brewing authority
>too) and say that I am not at all surprised that Alts come in at
>77-80% ADA.
[snip]
>Given
>a stammwuerzen of 11.5-11.8P and an ABV of 4.5-4.8 then we must have
>ADA in the range of 75-78%, fairly high. I have brewed alts of this
>type and achieved over 80% ADA by incorporating a beta amylase rest.
>I would still aim in practice for closer to 78% ADA. As for a
>bottled alt continuing to attenuate before sampling I would reject
>this due to the filtration employed after the beer is at terminal
>gravity. Filtration of alts can be important, especially if one is
>using a true Dusseldorfer alt strain that demonstrates poor
>flocculation.
Actually, I too spent the better part of a day with the brewmaster at
Zum Uerige and when I asked him about the grain bill he said (in
German, of course), that they use mostly Dunkel malt with a very tiny bit
of very dark malt (I seem to recall him holding his thumb and index
finger just a centimeter apart when telling me this).
As for filtration, I witnessed the bottling of Zum Uerige: they only
centrifuge the beer... they do not filter it.
Finally, I don't consider 75-78% Apparent Attenuation "fairly high."
I hope you all didn't think that I meant 50% attenuation like the
original Salvator Doppelbock! I know that I've written 70-80% in the
past, which is probably wider than I would have liked to write.
I would tend to agree that 75-78% is right for Altbiers and would
consider the 80 to 85% that some American Light Lagers get to be
"high" and out-of-place in an Altbier. Some "Malt Liquors" have
92% apparent attenuation and Miller Lite actually blows up most
AA formulae (it has an FG of 0.996, I believe).
My contention was that 80% apparent attenuation was too high for
Zum Uerige and even your calculations seem to bear that out. While
it may be a minor point, I do believe that 75-78% is significanly
different than the 80% Piendl reported.
>As for malty finish, mouthfeel and ADA I will once again point out
>that one of the maltiest beers produced are the Munchner Maerzens
>that achieve relatively high ABVs from a stammwuerzen of 13- 14P.
>Maerzens are also highly attenuated yet very malty. Another good
>example is found in Weissbiers, with 80-86% ADA.
I guess I'm guilty of that mode of thinking... it's difficult to
not associate attenuation with mouthfeel.
Just for laughs, I looked up my best Altbier batch in my logbook.
It held up very favourably in a side-by-side taste test with a
bottle of Zum Uerige that I brought back with me. It was made
with Wyeast #1338 European Ale (which Wyeast lists as 67-72%
apparent attenuation) and was a nice, clean fermentation and the
beer did not overcarbonate even in the bottles that lasted a year
in the back of the crawlspace. OG was 1.053 (yes, a touch high)
and FG was 1.012...
...apparent attenuation: 77%
I believe that Jim and I are in agreement although I can see how
my previous statements could be interpreted as if I thought Piendl's
data was off by 10 or 20 percentage points. I didn't mean to imply
that.
I'm deeply sorry. I'm arranging weekly meetings with several
members of the clergy in an effort to help me prevent this from
occuring again. Although I have instructed my attorneys to mount
a vigorous defense against Mr. Busch's accusations, this should not
be interpreted as if I do not admit having made a mistake that I
deeply regret.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz@xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:20:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz@xnet.com>
Subject: Mead priming
Dave writes:
Mike Butterfield says:
>>I have a question about priming mead.
>>..... Will there still be active
>>yeasts around to carbonate within the bottle?
>
>
>I suggest you hedge your bets and pitch an active Sacc. Bayanus
>( used in Champagne) when you prime.
Careful... if you used a wine yeast and had a very high OG (like 1.140
or 1.150), your wine yeast could have pooped-out from the alcohol and
the relatively more alcohol-tolerant S. Bayanus (like Pasteur Champagne
or Wyeast Dry Mead) could lead to overcarbonation.
Personally, I don't ask the yeast to carbonate the mead for me... they
have already done enough! When I do make the odd sparkling mead, I
force-carbonate it and bottle that. Typically, I'll use 2L PET bottles
and Carbonater(tm) caps. I overcarbonate it by a few tenths of a volume,
chill to 35F and then pour gently into cool bottles.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz@xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:40:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz@xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest again...
Dave writes:
>Just remember that it is extemely unlikely that Clinitest with its
>history of nearly a century in Chemistry is wrong. It is most likely,
>when we get an "unusual" result, that our explanation and
>understanding has to change or at least be re-examined.
The history of the test upon which Clinitest is not at issue here.
What is at issue is the fact that some recipes will lead to dextrin
levels which result in Clinitest readings of greater than 1/4%.
Also, please note that Clinitest was developed for testing urine
glucose and that the application you propose is to test a mixture of
many, many various sugars, some of which have reducing ends and
some that do not. The use of Clinitest on beer certainly does not
have a century of history.
>I have always recommended Clinitest as a method of indicating that the
>fermentation was finished when the glucose level was <1/4%.
I have said many times in the past (a fact that you seem to repeatedly
ignore!) that the glucose in the wort will be consumed *first* and
there is a lot of fermentation that goes on long after all the glucose
is long gone. Furthermore, if you would read Steve Alexander's post
again (see http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/articles/clinitest.html),
you will note that he does *not* say that Clinitest is useless (nor
do I) but rather that:
1. readings at or below 1/4% are a sure indication that
fermentation is complete.
2. readings of 2% or greater are a sure indication that
fermentation is NOT complete.
And here's the part that you *repeatedly* ignore, Dave:
3. readings between 1/4% and 2% mean fermentation may or
may not be complete... knowing which requires an understanding
of the fermentability of your wort.
My entire reason for opposing your posts about the "ease of Clinitest"
is because I foresee some beginner homebrewer making an Old Ale or
perhaps Jethro's Big 10/20 Barleywine and doing weekly Clinitests
that keep reading 3/4%... thinking "Dave said to wait for 1/4% to
bottle."
THAT'S MY MAIN POINT!!!
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz@xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #2826, 09/17/98
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