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HOMEBREW Digest #2590
HOMEBREW Digest #2590 Tue 23 December 1997
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Server Downtime ("Pat Babcock")
Wine Yeast vs Beer yeast (Jack Schmidling)
cleaning blowoff tubes/pin lock fittings (John Wilkinson)
Improved Hydrometer Readings ("Rich, Charles")
A-B Bashing, Dopplebock? (Alpinessj)
Re: A-B ("George, Marshall E.")
Problem getting TSP deposits off equipment (Bill Goodman)
Valley Mill Gap Settings (Kyle Druey)
Sodium Hypochlorite "Bleach" (The Kirbys)
sparklers / nitrogen (MicahM1269)
Re: Pils versus Pilsner (Brad McMahon)
Hop Backs/Unions/Pils (jim)
Fermenting under pressure (Jeff Renner)
On Blowoff Tubes (Ted Chilcoat)
Gott Cooler RIMS False Bottom (Brent Dowell)
water suplies and Chlorine (Dave Sapsis)
Orval/Brett. character (BR Rolya)
Beta Glucans rest (Utesres)
RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread! (Jack Schmidling)
Question about Force Carbonation ("phil sides")
Propane to Natural Gas Conversion (John Sullivan)
Anheuser-Busch Alternate Perspective (John Sullivan)
Re: Valley Mill settings - another data point (dfikar)
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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:59:24 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock@oeonline.com>
Subject: Server Downtime
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....
The long-awaited upgrade tothe server will take place this afternoon,
12/23/97. If you send an article, attempt to subscribe or
unsubscribe, etc. and your submission bounces, that'll be the reason.
Also note that pages sponsored by the Digest residing on the Digest
server will be inaccessible during the upgrade.
This upgrade should not interfere with delivery of the Digest.
Thanks!
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock@oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven BrewBeerd@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:34:29 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf@mc.net>
Subject: Wine Yeast vs Beer yeast
From: "Andrew W. Avis" <aavis@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Subject: Ale vs. Wine Yeasts
"While I'm posting to HBD, I may as well ask this question:
Why is oxygenation not an issue w/ wine yeasts, at least not in the home
wine making literature that I've read?
I hate to seem so cynical but the homebrewing industry is orders
of magnitudes larger than the home winemaking industry ever was.
This presents two possible answers:
There are greater opportunities in a larger market for people who
say clever things about it. The more complicated it seems and
the more dogmatic it gets, the easier it becomes to fill pages
and pages with words of wisdom for hire or for free.
The other possibility is that most homemade wine still tastes like
homebrew did before we learned how to make it right.
The reality is probably somewhere in between. I make my wine
just like I make my beer and as I have said ad nausiam, simply
letting the wort/must drop and splash into the fermenter seems
to provide enough oxygen to make good stuff, at least in home
brew sized batches.
There is also the possibility that as wine must usually is not
boiled, there will be more disolved oxygen in it.
Although tangentially connected, there is an Applicaton Note
on another aspect of aeration on our web page.
js
- --
Visit our WEB pages:
Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 13:38:46 CST
From: jwilkins@wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: cleaning blowoff tubes/pin lock fittings
Dave said:
>The closed ( carboy and hose attached to lead the foam away)
>fermenter's main appeal to homebrewers is that, at first glance, it
>appears to be more resistant to infection from outside sources.
>The first few times you use it, all may go well and that is the real
>danger of this method. Infection is insidious. It is my opinion and
>others agree (and others differ) that, unfortunately, this overflow
>tube is difficult ( nearly impossible IMHO) to clean of this gunk and
>represents a potential harbor for unwanted microorganisms.
I don't think blowoff tubes are that likely a source of infection and
cleaning should be no problem. If there is going to be an infection
carried from the blowoff tube into the fermenter I think it could only
be from the first few inches of the tube nearest the fermenter. The
only possible way I can see for infection to be carried in is by receding
foam from the ferment. This will only be in the first few inches of the
tube. This much of the tube is easily reached with the fingers to clean.
Filth in the rest of the tube shouldn't matter.
Al said:
>A 1-day soak in PBW or a week in 200ppm chlorine bleach makes that grungy
>ring wipe off easily.
I find that an hour or two soak with warm water and TSP cleans off the worst
grunge without any scrubbing at all. TSP may not be available everywhere
but if available it will be in a paint department. I swear by the stuff.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Smith asked about replacement Cornelius pin lock fittings.
South Bay Homebrew Supply at (800) 608-BREW has (or had a year or so ago)
all sorts of pin and ball lock fittings.
John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins@wss.dsccc.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:20:09 -0800
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich@saros.com>
Subject: Improved Hydrometer Readings
Hello hello,
Here's a simple trick that doubles your hydrometer sensitivity, uses a
smaller sample size, and makes it easier to cope with high temperature
samples.
Steps :
1) take sample
2) dilute it with equal volume of water
3) take reading and double the fraction (i.e. 1.008 --> 1.016)
I said it was simple.
To make it easier I pre-marked a line on my sample well for the
volume of liquid required to float the hydrometer for a reading, and
a line at half of that volume. To use it, I fill the well with my
sample to the halfway line then top off with water to the full volume
line then plop in my hydrometer.
You can get those lines by filling your sample well with water
until it floats the hydrometer (with a little extra for those
sub-1.000 gravities), remove the hydrometer and measure the volume of
water. I rounded that up to a little more convenient number, in my
case 150 ml, your mileage may vary. Pour that back into your well
and mark a line at that liquid level. Next, empty the well and pour
in 1/2 that volume and then mark that line.
Because my hydrometer reads 1.000 in 60F water I trust it more toward
the lower end of the scale. This technique pulls your readings
closer to those ranges. If yours doesn't read 1.000 with water, just
note the difference and add it to your measurements to compensate for
instrument error.
When taking high temperature samples the dilution brings the
temperature down so it's easier to cool it the rest of the way to
60F, or if you use temperature correction tables, the lower
temperature is less squirrely so the corrections are a little more
reliable. You can use ice water to dilute, or warm water depending on
whether your sample is warmer or colder than 60F.
Cheers,
Charles Rich (Seattle, USA)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:23:42 EST
From: Alpinessj <Alpinessj@aol.com>
Subject: A-B Bashing, Dopplebock?
It must be the hectic holidays getting to me, but I just have to get in on the
current A-B thread.
First, A-B is being hypocritical on the "Truth-in-Labeling" issue. They want
Sam Adams and Pete's to have exactly where they were brewed on the bottle, but
A-B is not willing to do the same. They brew beer all over the US, (granted,
they own all the breweries) but they won't make different cans and labels for
all the different locations. It is a big cost issue, but they want everyone
else to spend the money for all the labels, but they don't want to do it
themselves. This whole issue was effectively shot down on a national level (or
bogged down in the ATF, where it will either get lost or burned), so now A-B
is trying bring it up state by state. Just trying to tighten the screws more
on the little guys. Its bad enough that A-B has brainwashed the general public
into drinking their hopless, half-rice swill, but now that there are a lot of
brewers turning out good beer, they want to crush them any way they can so the
A-B market share can be back to 99% or whatever the hell it was 5 years ago.
To me, the issue is whether the beer is good or not. Can't they just let
brewers making good beer alone, and quit the senseless attacks? (can you tell
I'm raving yet?)
Now for a craft-beer related topic. If you make a "dopplebock" style beer with
an ale yeast, wouldn't it be an Old Ale?
Hoppy Holidays,
Scott Jackson, The Jackson Backyard Brewery
"So worked up by now I almost spilled my Celebration Ale"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:56:07 -0600
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge@bridge.com>
Subject: Re: A-B
>From my earlier post about A-B and their stance on labeling:
In HBD 2585 Terry White wrote:
<snip> It would be very interesting to see a listing of all the
adjuncts and chemicals in some of the commercial beers out there.
Sure, why not? Then we could see exactly what those 'Select Cereal
Grains' are that make up Bud, Bud Light, etc. It would likely be mostly
rice. And, we could see what the deal is why their beer in clear glass
doesn't skunk - treated hop extract vs. hop flowers or pellets.
In reply to Raymond Esterella:
I don't have a problem with the idea of 'Truth In Labeling'. What gets
me is that A-B is pushing it only in Missouri at this time, which will
force everyone but them to do special labeling just to sell their beer
in Missouri. I know Sam Adams makes his beer in Oregon; I've walked on
the street where the brewery is, and I believe that they are coming
clean on their labels now. But because A-B decides to take this 'Holier
than Thou' attitude towards contract brewing, that's what gets me riled.
What the hell are small brewers with limited capital supposed to do? If
contract brewing wasn't done, it's likely many breweries would never get
beyond their local area.
As for the 'Skunky' beer thing, I'm a homebrewer and I do know what
causes 'skunky' beer. The whole point there is that they ride this HUGE
bandwagon about 'skunky' beer, and yet they package 2 of their beers in
bottles that are the major factor in skunking. To me, that's being
hypocritical. When they point out about 'skunky' beer (the 2 that
immediately come to my mind are Corona - clear glass! and Heineken) in
their ads, and yet produce a product in a container that is KNOWN to aid
in skunking beer, that's being hypocritical. It's not misleading; they
are in no way saying that their packaging won't skunk a beer. I also
think that they take a cheap shot when they use treated hop oil instead
of whole hops or pellets in making their beer just so they can get away
with clear glass. If you use whole hops or pellets, even the most
delicate of beers will skunk if you give it the opportunity.
Once again, I re-iterate that there are some A-B products out that I do
like. Even Bud Ice isn't bad; I just think that A-B needs to lighten up
on the little guy.
Finally, I retract my final statement about adjuncts. It wasn't well
stated.
Marshall George
Edwardsville, IL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:30:50 +0000
From: Bill Goodman <goodman@apwk01g1.nws.noaa.gov>
Subject: Problem getting TSP deposits off equipment
Anyone know how to get tri-sodium phosphate deposits off my homebrew
equipment? Bleach, vinegar, very hot water? How strong a solution, and
how long a soak? What happened was that I had filled the kitchen sink
with a solution of 3 tablespoon TSP anmd 3 gallons very hot water to
soak a few items for several hours. When I came back to rinse, the
water level had dropped, and the TSP dried on everything that became
exposed to the air. Soaking in hot water (140 degrees F) didn't do a
thing. It took a good scrub with a copper scouring pad just to get the
stuff off bottles; how do I get it off plastic items such as tubing,
"Wine/Beer Thief", etc.? Thanks for your help...think I'll stick to
B-Brite from now on. :}
- --
Bill Goodman
Olney, MD
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:37:54 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Valley Mill Gap Settings
HBD Collective:
>I'm generally happy with my Valley Mill. I have one suspicion, though.
>I wonder if the preset gaps on the mill are the same from mill to mill?
>The instructions give you no clue as to which settings to use.
I emailed Valley Brewing regarding this and they indicated that the gap
settings do vary from mill to mill, and that is why they don't provide
measurements. I resorted to using electrical wire to measure the gaps.
The Ingersoll-Rand "Cameron Hydraulic Book" provides the following
diameter size in inches for AWG copper wire:
AWG Size Diameter (inches)
- -------- -----------------
18 0.0403
16 0.0508
14 0.0641
12 0.0808
Maybe some electrical types can verify this data, Kenny Schwartz? You
could probably pick up 6" of all 4 sizes for a buck or two at your local
mega-chain home-improvement store.
Kyle Druey
brewing in Bakersfield, CA
Go WAZU Cougars in the Jan. 1 Rose Bowl! (no offense to the Ann Arbour
Brewers Guild; Jeff, Spencer, Dan, et al)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:15:34 -0800
From: The Kirbys <bkirby@tdn.com>
Subject: Sodium Hypochlorite "Bleach"
Fellow Homebrewers,
This is in response to a discussion between George De Piro and Dave Burley
on the use (or depending on your viewpoint maybe misuse) of household
bleach or sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) for cleaning and disinfection. I do
not want to question or critisize either of these knowledgeable fellow
brewers on whether bleach should or should not be used for homebrew
disinfection. However, as a chemist that works in a chlor-alkali
production facility I just wanted to clarify some technical points that
were made in the discussion.
1) Sodium Hypochlorite is produced by reacting Caustic or NaOH with
chlorine or Cl2 to produce NaOCl and NaCl. In order for this chemical to
be 'stable' it is best to have a little excess NaOH, usually 0.5 g NaOH per
liter. Seldom does it have more than that for two reasons. the first being
it would cost more to produce it (unreacted chemical) and second there
would be a dramatic impact on pH of the solution it was being added to.
So, although a more concentrated solution would have a higher pH than a
dilute one, it would be slight.
2) There are some places that do use NaOCl for water sterilization but they
are in the minority because the strongest you can make this solution is
about 17.5% (wt. %) and therefore it is about 82.5% water (if we ignore the
salt that is formed in the reaction and the small excess NaOH). It can not
be produced as a dry powder even as a dihydrate. That is most likely
Ca(OCL)2 or bleach powder. The main advantages to Bleach is it is easy to
meter, can be stored in a plasitic tank at ambient conditions as opposed to
a high pressure cylinder that needs special handling, and the environmental
regulations are somewhat less cumbersome. Adding Cl2 gas causes a lowering
of the pH (since it is an acid gas) which could cause problems in some places.
3) The improved performance, if heated, is because the OCl ion is
particularly reactive and increased heat accelerates that reaction. But it
is not particularly selective and will react with whatever is available,
whether that be microbes, plastic tubing, or skin. Repeated use often
oxidizes the plasticizers in tubing which can make them brittle and could
turn them opaque.
I did not intend this to be a bleach lecture and some may consider it
wasted bandwidth but the chemist in me wanted to clarify some of the
discussion.
I actually do homebrew and I use bleach as a disinfectant for my carboys.
In fact, I keep a dilute bleach solution in them during storage. Since my
nose no longer adequately smells chlorine I use my youngest daughter as my
sniffer. I rinse with hot water, usually 3 times, and when she does not
smell chlorine any more I figure it is ready. I have done 17 5-gallon
batches without an infected one yet so it has been working for me.
Brien Kirby
Chemist and Brewer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:59:15 EST
From: MicahM1269 <MicahM1269@aol.com>
Subject: sparklers / nitrogen
I've noted quite a discussion over the last week about the sparkler for
dispensing beers, so I'll toss in my bit as well.
I have been using ( or tinkering with ) old Guiness flow control faucets for
several years. About a year ago, while cleaning the sparkler portion of the
nozzle, I lost the little diffusor plate. The faucet will pour like a normal
faucet without this peice. The diffusor plate is a thin disk with small
perforations ( holes ) that the beer must be forced throught in order to get
to your glass.
Since I needed a new diffusor and couldn't find one to buy, I made up several.
I had not previously noted the diameter of the perferations in the diffuser.
So I made up several differing units. The hole sizes range from .010 - .030
inch the disks are in .005 inch increments. In playing with the differing
size diffusers, I noticed that widing differing pour could be got from the
same beer ( pressure / temperature being equal ) I use the very fine hole
diffuser disks for stouts, porters and ales. And work up in hole sizes for
more robust beers.
I have not noted any variation in the longevity of hop nose from any faucet
combo. I have encountered difficult in getting a reasonable pour with highly
hopped beers and the finer perf diffusers. But unlike AK, I don't set around
for hours just smelling my beer either.
micah millspaw - brewer at large
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:07:08 +1000
From: Brad McMahon <brad@sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re: Pils versus Pilsner
>I have a friend who has been to Germany a couple of times. His father is
>from Germany. They insist that there is a difference between a Pils and a
>Pilsener. I don't doubt them, I'm just curious what the technical
>differences are. The only differences that they describe are that Pils is
>only available on tap and it takes 7 (or is that 12?) minutes to pour from
>the tap. What is the difference? TIA
>Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI
Well, the real difference is where it is from. "Pilsner" is an
appellation
meaning it comes from Plzen. So, Pilsner Urquell and Gambrinus are the
only
beers that can be called "Pilsner". Czechs, don't really know the word:
Pilsner.
They term beers either light "svetle", or dark "tmave" or "cerny
(black)".
If you mentioned Pilsner they understand you as meaning Urquell.
So, the Germans term their Pilsner-like beer, Pils. I don't remember
seeing any
German beers being called Pilsner when I was there a few months back,
but I
wasn't looking. I can think of a few examples where they call it Pils.
So, for the semi-technical bit. German pils have a little more
bitterness
than their Czech counterparts. Not just due to more hops, but because of
harder water. Generally, the further north you go the more bitter it
becomes. Hops, well as you might guess, Zatec(Saaz) hops are replaced
by German varieties, such as Tettanger and Hallertau. The German
brewers use decocotion mashes, contributing to the rocky head. They also
use a small nozzle on their tap system which also helps with the head.
So your friends' differences are not correct. Pils are available in
bottles
and on tap. I have plenty of labels of different Pils to back that up!
Simply, Pils is from Germany and Pilsner is from the Czech Republic.
Note: sometimes some Germans (probably not beer drinkers) understand
the difference being that Pils are diet beers and Pilsners are not.
This is also wrong, but based on some old German advertising campaigns.
zdravi and prost!
Brad
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:18:34 +0000
From: jim@victorybeer.com
Subject: Hop Backs/Unions/Pils
>3. What exactly is a "hop-back" and what are the advantages of this
>gadjet over dry-hopping?
<It's basically a container with a screen in the bottom. It is used
<to strain out whole hops after the boil and you can add additional
<whole hops to the hop back (aka hop jack) for aroma. Dry hopping
<lends a more powerful aroma than that you get from a hop back
<because the hops stay in contact with the beer far longer and
<because many compounds evaporate from the hops used in the hop back
Alternatively, many hop compounds are captured and carried over to
the fermenter from hot wort which differ from the dry hoppping
effects.
<because it is used with hot wort. You also run the
<risk of aerating <your hot wort when using a hop back (you want to
<cool your wort <before aerating).
You also get a different type of hop flavor and aroma from using a
hop back versus dry hopping. Hop backs tend to yield a more elegent
and integrated aroma and flavor than dry hopping which is a smack you
in the face effect, IMO. Hot wort running over the hops is a very
effective method to increase hop flavor. HSA in a hop back is not a
very big issue for homebrewers, you have a lot of water vapor
steaming off the hot wort and with a well designed hop back you will
not get HSA to the point of problems, expecially with well cared for
homebrew. Victory, as a whole hop brewery only, uses a hop back and
I have yet to detect HSA issues in HopDevil IPA or other more
delicate, malty, beers.
<Hop sludge can clog the airlock or blowoff tube. Fermenting on the
<break can increase higher alcohol production
And just as bad, poor stability of the finished beer. Hot break is
BAD BAD BAD!
<The stone may increase the rate at which the beer carbonates, but I
<don't think it is significantly faster.
Depends on how you use it. If you bubble CO2 through the beer and
vent under pressure you can carbonate fairly rapidly.
< I would call these stones optional. You also may
<want to consider how difficult they would be to sanitize...
<boiling/pressure-cooking/autoclaving are the only reliable ways.
Probably overkill. Nice thing about stones is you can use em for
both carbonating beer and running O2 into the cold wort prior to
fermentation. Ive never autoclaved my stones, just iodophor and good
brewing practices including good yeast management and cell counts.
Dave writes:
>The Burton Union Scheme was a labor saver and
>probably reduced infection as freshly cleaned kegs were used
>as the fermenter and then sent off to the pub. The fact that it is
>no longer used should tell you something.
Actually I cant think of a more labor intensive system! BTW,
Marstons only makes a tiny fraction of thier entire production using
Unions.
<I have a friend who has been to Germany a couple of times. His
<father is from Germany. They insist that there is a difference
<between a Pils and a Pilsener.
Germans usually call slow poured beers of this type Pils, which is
just short for Pilsner. They are probably making a distinction
between Bohemian Pilseners and German Pils which are indeed very
unique animals. Victory's Prima Pils is an example of German brewing
methods while the classic Pilsner Urquell is the archetype which all
other Bohemians are measured by.
Prost!
Jim Busch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:13:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner@umich.edu>
Subject: Fermenting under pressure
"Bret A. Schuhmacher" <bas@healthcare.com> wrote about the advantages of
fermenting in a 10 gallon corney with a pressure relief valve. If you were
to affix an adjustable relief valve with a gauge, you would have the
capability of fermenting a lager at 68F/30psi with a new German lager yeast
that Dan McConnell at Yeast Culture Kit Co. has. It apparently produces
true lager cleanness under these conditions, and allows shortened lagering
at 50F/30psi. Reportedly this is becoming very common in Germany, allowing
quick fermentation and lagering. I'd rather do it the traditional way, but
for those without refrigeration capabilities, this is a good alternative.
Standared disclaimer.
Jeff
-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner@umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:09:59 -0600
From: Ted Chilcoat <tedc@xcaliber.com>
Subject: On Blowoff Tubes
I just wanted to quickly add my thoughts:
I use a blowoff all the time on a 6 gallon glass carboy. Sometimes
I get a blowoff, sometimes I don't.
I don't worry about my tube getting dirty because it is made of
glass. I bought them at my local homebrew shop and I sanitize
it the same way I sanitize the rest of my equipment. It always
gets sparkling clean no matter how thick the crud is that gets
stuck on it during blowoff.
I know that it is more expensive than plastic tubing, but the extra
expense is worth it if you want to use a blowoff and are truly
concerned about picking up an infection from plastic tubing.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:43:57 GMT
From: bdowell@crl.com (Brent Dowell)
Subject: Gott Cooler RIMS False Bottom
Get this, Instead of me having to justify to my wife why I think I need =
to blow
a wad of cash on a RIM system, my wife has decided that she would like to
purchase the components for me (pumps, PID, heater chamber). Cool!
The one thing I haven't found much information on, is what to use as a =
false
bottom in my 10 gallon Gott Cooler. Currently, I use a Phalse Bottom, =
but from
what I've read, it appears that it may not have enough throughput for a =
RIM
application. I've seen some people use converted pizza pans, but I was =
wanting
something a little better than that.
Any ideas? Any other advice on setting up a RIMS is more than welcome as=
well.
Thanks for your help
Brent
Brent Dowell I have no Idea who Jeff
Lone Unknown Brewing Renner is or why he is the=20
Antioch Ca center of the HBD Universe
but just so you can figure=20
out my relevant postion my=20
GPS coordinates are:
N 37 58.336'
W121 46.803
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:20:14 -0800
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS@fire.ca.gov>
Subject: water suplies and Chlorine
Dave admonishes George:
>George, you ( and other people) are a little confused on this issue:
>1)Municipal water treatment uses chlorine gas not sodium
>hypochlorite, except in rare circumstances where pH adjustment
>may be needed and this is the cheaper alterative.
Sorry Dave, but *millions* of Northern Californians get their municipal
water supply treated with sodium hypochlorite. Both the San Francisco
Water Dept. (which provides water to lots of places other than just SF)
and the East Bay Municipal Utility District (which serves the entire
East Bay Area and some others) went away from Chlorine gas about 6
years ago. Both of these are surface water supplies derived from largely
granitic watersheds that are naturally soft and pH neutral. The change
was (purportedly) for safety reasons, as the gaseous form is one
dangerous material -- especially given the area's tendency to get up and
boogie (to say nothing of all us freaky-radical Berkeley leftists
around). This change was met with dismay on the part of brewers, as
the dose rate for the gas was around .3 ppm as compared to 1-1.5 ppm for
bleach treatment. The difference was readily apparent to a trained
nose. Bleach will readily dispate over time or with heat.
Other water companies are using Chloramines, which are an even more
stable form, and provide even greater concern for brewers. I strongly
suggest that everyone try to get reliable information on *their* water,
and make corrections as appropriate.
Dave also suggests that low concentrations of bleach is inadequate for
basic sanitation:
>However, just like you wouldn't use chlorinated tap water as a
>sanitizer, you shouldn't use low concentrations of bleach to do this.
While some prefer it hot (or strong) while others like it cold (or
weak), I fail to see how anyone who uses tapwater as a final rinse step
can fail to see something illogical here.
For many years, prior to using either Iodophor or peroxyacetic acid, I
used bleach at concentrations that Dave would disapprove of (1:1000
yielding 55 ppm or thereabouts), with drip-dry, no rinse, without
problems. There are thousands of unique ways to go about successful
brewing -- many defy common wisdom. Just one of the things I like
about it.
One point that I am in total agreement with Dave on: The CRC handbook
(mine is the 38th edition and I am the 5th owner) aint getting any
better, just bigger!
Cheers, and a great holiday to everyone.
- --dave sapsis (somewhere due south of Santy)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:29:59 -0500 (EST)
From: BR Rolya <brrolya@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Orval/Brett. character
Al K. wrote:
>I've never had one that smelled like urine regardless of how old it
>was, however. Perhaps it is an issue of semantics. Did it smell a
>little like leather or horses? That's from the Brettanomyces
>in Orval. Younger Orval smells strongly of Goldings... older Orval
>smells more like a horse blanket. Both are outstanding.
>Enjoying beer with a strong horsey aroma is an aquired taste.
As George De Piro well knows, a pet peeve of mine is the use of
the term "horsey/horse blanket" to describe that interesting
aroma found in Belgian beers. Personally, I find the aroma
to be similar to that of a well-tended compost pile, but
certainly not like a horse blanket. As a rider and a brewer,
I've never noticed even the remotest resemblance between
Brettanomyces and horses & their blankets. I've even
ridden horses in Belgium, and Belgian blankets don't
smell like Brett. either. However, I've never ridden
a horse with a blanket (in Belgium or elsewhere) while
drinking a Belgian beer, so maybe that's why my perceptions
are off.
(I'm not on a crusade - yet - to change the Beer World's
descriptive terms; just wanted to get in my proverbial
$0.02)
- BR Rolya
Brewing, Drinking, Riding, & Sniffing Horse Blankets in NYC
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:07:13 EST
From: Utesres <Utesres@aol.com>
Subject: Beta Glucans rest
Being an experimenter...
I'm inclined to try using a small amount of flaked oats in a batch of pale
ale, say 1/2 lb. oats, 9 lbs Maris Otter in a five gallon batch, maybe with
1/2 lb. crystal. The literature I've seen advises a beta glucans rest with
pale lager malt to avoid problems with wort viscosity and stuck sparges, but
I'd like to try it with a single infusion with Maris Otter straight to 154
degrees. I've never had a stuck sparge in about 30 all-grain batches, and
have used flaked oats, rye, and barley before with no problems. So, the
questions are:
Is there any other reason to do the beta glucanase rest other than to avoid
wort viscosity problems?
What good qualities do flaked oats really add?
Can these good qualities be had by skipping the low-temp rest, assuming no
stuck sparge?
- -----------------------------
Mike Utes
Big Rock Il
Give me a siphon and I shall move the wort.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:59:52 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf@mc.net>
Subject: RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread!
From: jwilkins@wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Return of the RollerMill Thread!
" The knurling on the rollers has to grip the
grain and the driven roller forces the grain through the gap, thereby
turning the second roller. If it doesn't grip, the second roller won't
turn. That is not as bad as it sounds....
Actually, it could be worse. As the knurls wear, like old men,
they lose their bite. This is typically not a problem for
homebrewers who rarely come close to wearing out rollers but
it is a real consideration for the serious brewer.
That is the reason we offer a gear drive option to actively
drive the second roller for the heavy user. Roller wear is
subtle and long before total failure, the efficency and
throughput slowly drop off.
We have always supplied mills with a "poor man's gear", (the
Oring) even though it is probably not necessary. It just
feels good to have both rollers turn all the time.
This is also one of the reasons we only allow adjustment from
one end. The Oring would not stay put or last very long if
it was between rollers where the spacing was changed regularly.
It is also difficult to make gears work properly when the
spacing is changed. Remember Glatt? Not only changing the
gear spacing but the gears were plastic and unreliable, to
put it politely. What was worse, it would not work without
gears because of the smaller roller.
It is less of a problem with large diameter rollers but I have
never seen a commercial mill without gears.
js
- --
Visit our WEB pages:
Beer Stuff.........http://ays.net/jsp
Astronomy.......http://user.mc.net/arf
ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:13:50 PST
From: "phil sides" <hopsock@hotmail.com>
Subject: Question about Force Carbonation
Anyone have a "works every time" method of force carbonating a keg? I
always prime mine and I have pretty consistent results. I have only
force carbonated twice, the last time over a year ago and I forget
exactly what I did.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:40:27 -0800
From: John Sullivan <"sullvan@anet-stl.com"@anet-stl.com>
Subject: Propane to Natural Gas Conversion
A friend of mine sent this to me. Could search the archives but this
might be quicker. Personal E-Mails are preferred and can be sent to Jeff
at michalski_jm@castor.wustl.edu. Thanks in advance for your help.
>I am in the process of building a three tier system and wish to
>economically power it with natural gas. I have purchased three brinkman
>propane burners under the assumption they could be adapted to natural
>gas. I recall seeing something on hbd to support this belief months
>ago. I believe it is simply redrilling the gas orifice on the brass "L"
>inlet to a larger size to accomodate the lower pressure of the natural
>gas.
>Can anyone tell me the correct drill size? Has anyone else done this
>modification?
John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:42:26 -0800
From: John Sullivan <"sullvan@anet-stl.com"@anet-stl.com>
Subject: Anheuser-Busch Alternate Perspective
I haven't followed the whole thread but came upon Graham Barron's
response to the A-B thread.
There will always be backlash to A-B's competitive tactics. Now you can
take it personally or you can see it as strictly business. A-B has a
responsibility to their stockholders to maintain this competitive
advanatage. If the courts say that what A-B is doing is legal or if A-B
wins a case against a bunch of little guys then those people running A-B
are doing their jobs. If I were an A-B stockholder, I would be rooting
them on. If you take it personally or if you think that these tactics
threaten micros and brewpubs, then you need to organize a CAMRA like
organization which will develop tactics to hurt A-B in the marketplace.
That is a daunting task since there are more of them (Bud drinkers) than
us.
> Right, but I think you're missing the point of the case. A-B is
>pushing this thing because they won't have to change ANY of their
>labels. A-B has won a ruling in the past (I guess from the BATF or a
>judge somewhere) that says its allright for them to put "St. Louis,
>Missouri" as the source of their beer regardless of where its made.
If I were an executive at A-B, I would recommend that the champion of
this idea get a huge bonus. It will save them millions. Great idea for
A-B.
>And as we all know, A-B has many breweries all over the country
>manufacturing their filth.
This is where we get off the track and you start wearing your emotions on
your sleeve. A-B does not manufacture filth. A-B manufactures mass
market beers that appeal to the largest cross-section of population
possible. Now they have gotten into some "fuller flavored" beers
recently that seem to miss the mark, but remember who they are marketing
to. Certainly, it is not to you or I. Also, for the style that they
are, Michelob and Budweiser are arguably two of the best beers (of that
style) made in the world. A-B's quality control is the best in the
WORLD, make no mistake about it. A-B knows what it is doing.
> So this justifies their ad campaign that they're really concerned about
> freshness and "truth"? I don't think so. I doubt their is any
>difference between a skunked Bud and a fresh Bud (at least to my taste
>"buds".
I suspect then that you have no taste buds for their is a great
difference between an old Bud and a fresh Bud. Bud actually has little
opportunity to get "skunked". Take a Bud and put it on an unrefrigerated
shelf. Wait 6 months, buy a fresh one and taste them side by side. If
you can't tell a difference, then you have no taste buds.
> The local craft brewers and brewpubs are the ones really concerned
>about quality and freshness.
> Actually the local guys are really only concerned about selling their
product. As to A-B's not being concerned, that is true but then again it
isn't. They are not overly concerned primarily because their beers NEVER
sit on a shelf for very long. Consumption and production are very much
in line with each other which means it moves off of the shelves quickly.
It has been like this for many years. I work for Union Pacific and we a
have a shipment monitoring contract with A-B. I can guarantee you that
when a rail shipment is delayed (not only of raw materials but of product
going to the marketplace), A-B is notified and proactive intervention is
initiated to get that shipment where it needs to be ON TIME. A-B knows
that they are under scrutiny in this whole freshness thing. Go to your
local liquor store and try to find an old (more than a couple of
months) A-B product on the shelves.
> You don't hear ads from Pete's, Rogue, whatever saying A-B beer isn't
>any good because they use lots of adjuncts. They have too much class to
>do so, and are too busy pushing their own product.
I don't know how this indicates that Pete's, Rogue, et. al. have class.
I would suspect that they do not want to take on the A-B legal
juggernaut. This is more likely the case than them having class.
> > They would not say that because a lot of the worlds great beers use
> >adjuncts. Belgian, Scotch and English Ales come to mind.
Or it may have to do with the idea that these companies would like to
reserve the right in the future to use adjuncts themselves without being
called into question.
> Right, but are those adjuncts designed to cheapen the beer in both
>quality, flavor, and cost? No, they generally improve the product or
>make it unique. What does rice or corn add to the beer to make it
>better, in other than financial terms?
Rice and corn are cheaper, but they are quite essential to making
the American Lager substyles. The drinking public on the whole does not
want full flavored malty beers.
> Please don't interpret this as a flame or personal attack, but I'm
>really dismayed that there are craft beer drinkers/home brewers out
>there that will go to such lengths to defend A-B and their
>anti-competitive, anti-craft brew tactics.
> Now with all that said, I will say that the only time that I drink A-B
products is when I am in a place that has no other beer such as wedding
receptions and certain restaurants. I could choose to drink nothing, but
I would rather have a Bud than nothing. Everyone is exercising their
right to purchase or not purchase. I have had many people try my beer.
Many love it, but a lot more would really rather have a Bud. Are they
wrong or are they just expressing what their preferences are? Everyone
is entitled to an opinion. My opinion is that A-B does a great job for
its stockholders and makes the finest American Lagers in America.
Competitive market practices are constantly under scrutiny and subject to
judgement under our legal system. Conspiracy theories anyone? The real
problem here is that we just prefer not to drink their beer.
John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:40:34 -0600 (CST)
From: dfikar@flash.net
Subject: Re: Valley Mill settings - another data point
>O2 how long?/Valley Mill/all-grain cost/bottled water/SO-lutions (Chris
>Carolan)
>I'm generally happy with my Valley Mill. I have one suspicion, though.
>I wonder if the preset gaps on the mill are the same from mill to mill?
>The instructions give you no clue as to which settings to use. If one
>setting was the preset ideal, you'd think they'd include that info with
>the mill. But the "find out for yourself" approach implies that each
>mill may be different. For mine, I followed the suggestion posted
>earlier in the HBD and use the second coarsest setting for my first
>pass, and the third coarsest setting for my second pass. My extraction
>has improved about 1.5 points per lb., but the husks seem quite torn
>up, and the first few sparges were tricky to get running clear. I've
>gotten better at it lately. I think it would be worthwhile for Valley
>Mill owners to compare measurements of their gap settings. I haven't
>measured mine yet, though.
>
I too find that the second coarsest setting on my Valley Mill gives the best
crush. The third coarsest setting causes too much damage to the grain husk,
IMO. I have only made three batches so far using my VM but I have noticed no
drop in efficiency using only a single pass at the second coarsest setting.
Previously I'd been having my local shop crush the grain with their JSP
Malt Mill.
- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar@flash.net)
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #2590, 12/23/97
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