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HOMEBREW Digest #2381
HOMEBREW Digest #2381 Mon 24 March 1997
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@brew.oeonline.com
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Sparge SG (Spencer W Thomas)
Pet Safety and Hop Rhizomes (erikvan)
square cooler for 5 gal. recipes?? ("Robert Marshall")
Re: lemon lager (UTC +01:00)" <d_peters@e-mail.com>
Stuck Ferment ("Nathan L. Kanous II")
Hormones (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?=)
0xygen Tanks (Richard Klug)
HCl (A. J. deLange)
RE: Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent (Russ Brodeur)
RE: RIMS question ("Bridges, Scott")
Decoction thread (Cory Chadwell)
Starch in Steeped Grains (Mark Riley)
First Annual St. Vrain Spring Runoff Hom (Curt Schroeder)
Re: Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent (Bob McCowan)
Input for decoction discussion ("C&S Peterson")
Spam from AOB/AHA (Kelly Jones)
decoction processing (Charles Rich)
Re: Input for decoction discussion (Charles Burns)
Maui brew pubs (Margaret S Johnson)
Dog killing hops? (John C Peterson)
Corn ("Raymond Estrella")
extract to grain conversions (Tim & Marilyn)
Re: Edme Pressure Barrel (David Townsend)
need good head (Gavin Scarman)
Guiness on tap @home (Callahan)
Setup in New House (milledon)
Re: Lemon Lager (Hal Davis)
re: constant RIMS pumping + RIMS dough-in? ("C.D. Pritchard")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:04:54 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Sparge SG
Yesterday, Domenick Venezia posted some real data, from 10 batches, on
the decrease in SG as sparging progresses. I took the data and made a
rough-and-ready chart from it.
The whole thing may be viewed at
http://realbeer.com/spencer/Experiments/sparge-sg.html
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer@umich.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:26:51 -0600 (CST)
From: erikvan@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Pet Safety and Hop Rhizomes
Layne Rossi wrote in HBD #2378:
>Dogs get poisoned by Hops? Are other animals affected as well? I've been
>considering planting hops and have started looking for a source to buy
>some. Now I'm looking for information on this new BIG problem.
>There are several dogs around as well as; horses, sheep, rabbits and deer
>that like to frequent my yard and unfortunately the fenced in garden area.
>How exactly are the dogs affected? Can they be affected by dried hops? If
>anyone has some answers or would be able to direct me to some additional
>reading I would appreciate the help.
I originally read a news item in an issue of Zymurgy about this. The report
involved sighthounds. They all suffered from "malignant hyperthermia",
which is an uncontrollable fever, followed by convulsions. The first
symptom is heavy panting, followed by rapid heartbeat and rise in body
temperature. The substance in hops that causes the disease has not been
identified. I have a Golden Retriever, and understand your fears. All the
reported cases involved dogs eating spent hops, or the hops after the boil
was complete. No reference was made to fresh hops, which could indicate that
the chemical causing the death was formed in the boil. But, I too am nervous.
My dog is my brew buddy, but when it comes to straining the wort, or cleaning
the boil equipment, she stays away. I wouldn't be too worried about the other
animals though. Their diets consist of greens and such. But if you can put
a fence around your hop plants to keep the dogs out, please do. I did.
I don't want to take any chances with my dog.
And also:
Chris Strickland wrote in HBD #2376:
>I've been reading this thread with interest. I live in Florida and I'm on
>my 3rd year of growing Cascades. Last year I had about 2oz of flowers.
>The previous year I had some flowers, but not much. I grow the hops in
>gallon plastic pots that have holes in the bottom. The roots grow through
>the holes. After the first year I cut the roots at the bottom of the pots
>and moved them. In hopes that the roots in the ground would grow. Nothing
>happened. Now I'm hearing that right now would be the best time to cut the
>roots. But my plants are about 4 ft high with right now. Can I cut the
>root at the bottom of the pot again to get new plants? Will it hurt my
>current growth?
First off Chris, the roots on the bottom of the pots are nothing
more than roots. Although a rhizome is considered a root, it varies
from a typical root. What you are clipping at the bottom are the roots
used to get water and nutrients, I don't know what you really call them,
but you get the idea. If you clip them, they will die. Which brings us to
the lack of production. I'm no expert, but it seems that clipping the
roots might cause damage to the plants, or at least inhibit the retrieval
of nutrients. Your hop plants are also trying to tell you something. The
pots they are in are too small. It's too late now to do anything, but next
February, take the hops, cut off some rhizomes, and plant all of them into
the ground. Fertilize the ground well with manure, some mulch, and water
well. You will notice a difference. By the way, rhizomes are a thicker
piece of root. When you pull the hop plant out, you will notice the size
difference, and you'll notice "buds" on them. Try to get a couple of
buds per cutoff.
Good luck in your brewing and growing adventures,
Erik Vanthilt
The Virtual Brewery
Http://www.netcom.com/~erikvan/brewery.html
News, links, recipes, hints, and a monthly brew-newsletter...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:19:20 +0000
From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm@hooked.net>
Subject: square cooler for 5 gal. recipes??
I've decided to move on to all-grain brewing (finally!!). Right now
I'm considering building a square picnic cooler mashtun.
While I hope to eventually move on to larger sizes, I'm concentrating
on 5 gallon batches right now.
Anyone wish to make any suggestions on size for this? The local
Wal-mart has both 48 and 56 qt sizes on sale for under $20. Will the
56 qt be too big? For that matter will the 48 be as well?
I've seen all the debate about round vs. square already. What I need
are suggestions about the square one.
Thanks in advance.
Robert Marshall
robertjm@hooked.net
homepage: http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm
- ----------------------------------------------
"In Belgium, the magistrate has the dignity
of a prince, but by Bacchus, it is true
that the brewer is king."
Emile Verhaeren (1855-1916)
Flemish writer
- ------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:03:49 EST
From: "DAVID T. PETERS GERMANY(UTC +01:00)" <d_peters@e-mail.com>
Subject: Re: lemon lager
I always thought it funny when I see people get so excited about the first
time they are able to pipe in about something they know. Well this is my
first input to the hbd other than questions and I understand their feeling.
Back to the beer page.
Yesterday:
>From: Stan Ridgeway <satan@psycho.chicken.org>
>Subject: Re: lemon lager
>... My old German teacher told us that the Radler is something
>a ten year old might get to drink, because his parents might not want him
>to get blitzed on a half liter of beer. It's also something one wouldn't
>feel guilty about drinking at 10 am.
To clarify this issue. Germany has a great expanse of bicycle paths
throughout the country. This includes the wine region and many others.
A bicycle is known as a FahrRAD. As you well know beer is considered
food here in Germany and is a staple in everyday life. While bicycling the
Germans desired a refreshing beer beverage to sustain them but did not
want to later fall off of their bicycles. There answer to this was to develop
the RADler, a mixture of beer and lemonade.
REGARDS, DAVID T. PETERS E-MAIL: d_peters@e-mail.com
CW170 NA BODY CONSTRUCTION LEADER, VEHICLE OPERATIONS
FORD OF GERMANY, MERKENICH MAIL LOCATION: D-ME/MF-21
PROFS ID: DPETERS3 PHONE: 9-1-70-37791 FAX: 9-1-70-31635
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 06:51:59 +0000
From: "Nathan L. Kanous II" <nkanous@tir.com>
Subject: Stuck Ferment
Greetings,
My starter didn't start as quickly as I expected. As a result,
the volume was less than optimal for pitching. I fermented my
American Pale with Wyeast London (yeah, not very American) for
two weeks from 62 to 68 deg F. Orig grav 1.065, current gravity
1.028. What might I be able to do?
Thanks.
Nathan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:12:03 +0100
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?= <torbjorn.bull-njaa@sds.no>
Subject: Hormones
Rob Moline in HB 2380 talks about female hormones in beer. I hope this
fact does not surprise anybody. The hormones mentioned probably come from
the hops, which contain a certain amount of a hormone closely related to
female hormones. Actually, hops have in older days been used as a drug to
"cure" rapists and other sexually "overactive" cases. According to my
botanical books, hop pickers (in former days of course, now the machines
have taken over .. or?) are also known to develop female "breasts" etc.
Cheers, girls!
Torbjorn Bull-Njaa
Norway
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:35:30 +0000
From: klugrd@ma.ultranet.com (Richard Klug)
Subject: 0xygen Tanks
Does anyone have experience using Bernz-O-Matic (tm) oxygen tanks with
their Oxynator (tm) wort aeration system? I am looking for any specific
information about purity and such. Are the tanks made by the same
supplier? They are similar in appearance and volume (1.1# 02). The
Bernz-O-Matic are available at Home Depot for 8 bucks, Oxynator charges
about 20.
Please send private email if possible, and I will post a summary. Thanks.
Trying to save a buck or 6,
Richard Klug
Wellesley, MA
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:35:45 -0500
From: ajdel@nospmindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: HCl
Charley Burns asked about using hardware store muriatic acid for lowering
the pH of sparge water. Yes, it works just fine and you use so little of it
that the fact that it isn't food grade can, perhaps, be overlooked but as
you can buy food grade phosphoric acid and lactic acid why not use one of
those? Anyway I calculate the hardware store stuff to be 8.75 N which means
that each milliliter contains 8.75 milliequivalents (mEq) of hydrogen ions.
In order to calculate how much is needed you need to know the alkalinity of
your water (check the water report or see below). Alkalinity is almost
always given in ppm (mg/L) "as calcium carbonate". Divide the given value
by 50 to get the mEq per liter. For example, if the alkalinity is 100 ppm
as CaCO3, there are 2 milliequivalents per liter. Multiply the mEq/L by the
amount of water to be adjusted. Five gallons of sparge water is 19 liters
so the total alkalinity in this volume of the example water would be 2*19
= 38 mEq and you would need 38/8.75 = 4.34 mL of the acid. This amount will
bring the pH to near 4 (because of the way alkalinity is defined). In
practice you should probably measure out a bit more acid than calculated
(say 5 mL in this example) and dilute it in a liter of water (add acid to
water), then stir, say, half of this into the sparge water. Now add the
rest bit by bit, monitoring pH as you go (test strips are plenty accurate
enough for this) until you reach the desired pH.
If you don't know the alkalinity of the water you could try putting 10 mL
of the acid into one liter of water and then add this a little at a time to
the 5 gal until pH 5 is reached. This will tell you how much to use in the
future. If you do the same experiment until pH 4.3 is reached you have just
done what the analyst does when he measures alakalinity (except that he
does it on a smaller scale and uses HCl whose strength is more accurately
known).
Alk = 50*(mL of diluted acid used/1000)*(8.75*10) ppm as CaCO3
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Anyone care to estimate how many chain letters I'd have to send out to get
a date for the prom? Scientific notation OK
A. J. deLange
- Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.
- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:41:33 -0500
From: Russ Brodeur <r-brodeur@ds.mc.ti.com>
Subject: RE: Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent
In HBD #2380 Charley summarizes some of his off-line discussions
regarding decoction mashing.
""I've had recommendations that say pull from 1/3 to 1/2 for the
decoction on
one end to pull 90% (virtually all) the grain for the decoction. Now,
I've
been doing the 80-90% trick and not having very good luck. Lets have a
public discussion here on the relevant advantages of one over the
other.""
I was (a) proponent of the "virtually all" technique. This needs to be
qualified, though. I use a 40-60-70 decoction schedule to easily
control wort fermentability. Both of the temp. steps in this schedule
require pulling "as much as possible" of the thickest mash. I use a
strainer, which means I do not have very much liquid present in the
decoct, so the heat capacity (??)of my decoct is lower than that of the
rest mash. I know a lot of people add water to the decoct, thus
increasing its heat cap., so they wouldn't need to pull as much.
I find it is much much much easier to cool, using ice, a small amount of
boiling mash to the strike temp than it is to heat the entire mash if I
undershoot by not pulling a large enough decoction.
Using a double decoction I find that the 135-40 F rest yields both
increased fermentability (high BA activity) and decreased chill haze
(provided there is some "pale" malt in the grist). I am a strong
advocate in favor of using the 40-60-70 temp profile with decoction
mashing, though not with infusion mashing.
TTFN
Russ in Franklin, MA
mailto:r-brodeur@ds.mc.ti.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 08:37:00 EST
From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess@mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: RE: RIMS question
Jason (Huskers fan, yuck) asks,
>I'm building a RIMS. I've had $30 worth the square tubing welded in to a
>three tier stand. Should have done this batches ago. It's amazing what the
>right equipment will do for you. I'm getting my temperature control
together
>(thanks to Ken Schwartz) and have a pump on order. Heater chamber parts are
>at the plumbers waiting to be solder together. The equipment seems to
falling
>into place.
>
>The only thing is I'm not sure how to operate it! Do you RIMSers let the
>pump run the whole time? Or just to do temperature raises and now and then
>to maintain a rest temperature? Ant other tips are welcome as well. I can
>hardly wait to crank this baby up.
I claim in no way to be a RIMS expert, but I'll be glad to share my
experience as a data point. I've been using my home made RIMS for about 4
months and maybe 5 batchs (I've been too busy to brew as much as I would
like).
I tend to let the mash settle for about 15 minutes after the initial
infusion. I use this to let the temperature stabilize, so I know where I'm
starting. Then, I begin recirculating and depending on the temperature
program, I may or may not begin immediately to run the heating element.
I've used numerous temp programs, depending on grain bill and beer style.
I've not really settled on an "optimum" temperature program. I'd be
interested in hearing others' comments on that. Typically, once the pump is
running I let the pump run to recirculate during the entire mash. Then,
when I'm ready to transfer to the kettle, I just switch the chamber outlet
from going back into the mash over to the kettle. I throttle back on the
flow into the kettle, since I recirculate faster than you would want to
sparge.
Good questions, Jason. We seem to spend a lot of time talking about RIMS
construction, but not as much on the actual use. I'd also like to hear
about some other RIMS'ers actual routines. Also, I'd appreciate any
constructive criticism of my process.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:06:26 -0600
From: cory@okway.okstate.edu (Cory Chadwell)
Subject: Decoction thread
Hey Collective,
There seems to be some questions about effective decoction schedule's.
Lets get some comparative info flowing here (time for the old guard to
speak up)
Charles Burns mentioned
>Ok, after much review, discussion and headslapping, the following
>temps are
>pretty much everyone's agreement for a single decoction:
>First rest via infusion at 140F for 15-20 minutes. DO NOT under any
>circumstances let this go to 145F and then reduce. Hit the 140F right
>on, or
>even undershoot by up to 5 degrees (ie 135F to 140F). This rest is to
>release some proteins / enzymes into the liquid, and of course the
>free
>starch too.
Here is a schedule I've used for a good tasting beer but with head
retention problems. This is the base beer for a Strawberry beer so I
wanted a pretty light favor so don't kill me about using the rice.
Grain bill:
10 lb. pale 2 row
4 lb. raw rice
1 lb. raw wheat
1 lb. crystal 20l
2 lb. clover honey
Take 5.5 gal of water raise to 104 F and add 5 lb. pale 2-row rest at
104 for 30 min. (acid rest)
Raise temp to 140 F using decoction, add 1 lb wheat, 5 lb 2row and 1
lb crystal at 140 F, rest at 140 F for 30 min. (I'm thinking about
reducing this rest time to 15 min.)
raise temp to 158 F using 3rd decoction, rest at 158 F for 30 min
while 3rd decoction rests add rice to boil pot with water and raise to
a boil for 20 min. Let cool to 170 F and drain boil pot into mash tun
to sparge.
Like I said a pretty good schedule for me and I think reducing the
protein rest to 15 min. will improve it with this grain bill. However
I've tasted decoction batches that were better than this so if you've
got a routine that works for you I'm willing to listen and learn.
Whatdaya think Al, George, Jim, anyone with other experiences
TIA, Cory :)
Black Cat White Stripe Homebrew
"It might seem like a skunk but I swear it's not!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:46:35 -0800
From: Mark Riley <mriley@netcom.com>
Subject: Starch in Steeped Grains
Hello HBD,
George De Piro writes about keeping starch out of your beer.
His argument that this provides a competition-free food source
for such bad boys as wild yeast and bacteria makes sense
to me. In fact, reviewing the recipes of some of my early
extract brews, I was distressed to discover that I had
unwittingly steeped grains like Munich, wheat and even
2-row pale (these were borrowed recipes). These beers
became unpleasant after a little while and definitely had
more than their share of gas (CO2).
In any event, this leads me to my question: What about
grains like chocolate and roasted barley? When these
grains are steeped, don't they release starch? The grain
extract tables that I've seen indicate that these highly
roasted grains will still yield 23 to 30 points/pound/gallon
when mashed in the presence of working enzymes. So there
is starch in them, right? Or, does the roasting make this
starch (somehow) unsuitable for the infectious bugs?
And, FWIW, Papazian's book says that these grains should be
crushed when steeped - seemingly a great way to release
that starch.
I've read that crystal has some unconverted starch, too.
If I could speculate for a moment (admittedly a dangerous
thing to do ;-), maybe steeping grains adds a small amount
of starch to the beer that permits a low-grade infection
that gives rise to that "homebrew twang".
Any thoughts?
Mark Riley
Sacramento, CA
BTW, "unconverted starch" seems like a rather redundant
term to me, but I see it used everywhere. I mean, if
starch hasn't been converted, it's still "starch". Maybe
"remaining starch" would be better. Oh well. ;-/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:22:42 -0700
From: cschroed@ball.com (Curt Schroeder)
Subject: First Annual St. Vrain Spring Runoff Hom
You are invite to the First Annual St. Vrain Spring Runoff Homebrew
Competition
This is an AHA sanctioned competition featuring all AHA categories and
subcategories, plus miscellanous catagories for beer and mead that do not
fit the AHA style guidelines. For more information on style guidelines
contact the American Homebrewers Association or the undersigned. First
place winners in each category will be judged in a final round to determine
the Best of Show beer and Best of Show mead. For beer and meads that do not
fit in any AHA category we have two Spring Runoff category. Category 86 is
for those of you that brew great beers that do not fit into any particular
style. Category 69 is for any mead that does not clearly fit into any of the
mead styles.
Rules & Regulations will be made available to interested parties.
Bottles: An entry shall consist of three bottles within guidelines of the
rules.
Paperwork: 1997 AHA entry form, inquire with undersigned for copies
Entry Fees: An entry fee of $4 per entry will be collected on all entries.
Limitations: Brewers are limited to one entry per AHA subcategory, two per
major AHA category.
Where To Enter: Entries can be shipped, postage paid, by common carrier to,
or may be delivered in person. Entries are to arrive between April 12th and
April 26, 1997.
The Overland Stage Stop Brewery
526 Main St.
Longmont, CO 80501
(303) 772-3734
Other drop off locations exist with the state of Colorado, inquire the
undersigned for details.
Judging: The judging will take place from 9:00 am - 5:00 p.m. on Saturday,
May 3, 1997 at The Overland Stage Stop Brewery. If you are not a registered
BJCP judge, and would like to judge at the competition please contact the
undersigned. Stewards and apprentice judges are always welcome.
Awards Ceremony & Celebration: An awards ceremony will start shortly after
judging is completed. Medals and prizes will be awarded to 1st, 2nd, & 3rd
place entries in each category. The best of show will get to brew their beer
at the Overland Stage Stop Brewery within the means and guidance of the
Overland Stage Stop Brewery (funky yeasts strains and/or complicated
decoctions etc. may not be considered). Spectators are invited to the
judging with food and beer available for purchase at discounted rates.
Direct any questions and inquiries to:
Curt Schroeder
cschroed@ball.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:45:53 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan@bmd.cpii.com>
Subject: Re: Decoction - concensus on Temp, not on Percent
Obviously, if you're trying to go from 122 - 153 you need to pull a bigger
decoction than if you go from 140 -153.
>Now, I've
>been doing the 80-90% trick and not having very good luck.
What was your bad luck? - overshooting temp, slow conversion? For
overshooting you can just add back the decoction in stages and stop when you
hit your strike. Cool the remaining decoction and add in.
>Is this really the only factor that we need to consider? Or are we concerned
>about boiling more of the mash to achieve more melanoidin formation, or
>higher extraction?
Really the reason to do a decoction (other than masochism) is to boil the
grains. To make it worth the trouble you probably want to boil at least
half the grains. Another thing you could do is a 105-130-155 sequence with
two decoctions. Then most of the grain will get boiled at least once.
Bob
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan
ATG/Receiver-Protector voice: (508)-922-6000 x208
CPI BMD fax: (508)-922-8914
Beverly, MA 01915 e-mail: bob.mccowan@bmd.cpii.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 14:43:04 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON@msn.com>
Subject: Input for decoction discussion
Charlie and other HBDers:
While I do not exclusively brew with the decoction method, I am quite a fan.
However, I do not consider myself a "guru" as Charlie requested. Being this
is the HBD, I will offer my *uninformed* opinion anyway. :-) Just for
purposes of definition I would consider a "thick" mash to be about 1Q per
pound of grain, and a "thin" mash to be about 1.5Q per pound of grain or
greater.
Charlie asks for what fractions/density mash he should be shooting for when he
"pulls" the decoction. I am in favor of (and this may be a repeat of previous
emails): mashing in at 1Q per #, pulling enough grains to constitute 1/3 of
the total mash volume (this may in fact be 1/2 of the grains -- I've never
been really exact about this part of the procedure), adding boiling water to
the decoction mash (usually about 1/2Q per #) to get to 160F, resting, boiling
for the prescribed decoction, and re-combining with the rest mash.
This makes a pretty thin decoction. I think the thin mash provides the brewer
with greater temperature control, helps prevent scorching, and reduces
possible HSA from overstirring a thick mash. I do not see the big advantage
in thick mashes. I can produce a VERY dextrinous (sic) wort simply by mashing
in the high temp range, get lots of color/carmelization with the thin mash
boil, and seem to get quicker conversion with the thinner mashes than the
thick ones. The only reason I could see for trying to keep the mash thick
would be if I were mash tun limited and wanted to make a high gravity beer.
But I'd consider double mashing before I attempted an ultra-thick mash for a
high gravity wort.
Maybe those of you who work with particularly thick mashes have some secrets
to share?
Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:49:34 -0800
From: Kelly Jones <kejones@ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Spam from AOB/AHA
Brian Rezac, AHA Administrator, wrote:
>The spammings that you are refering to did not originate at the AOB/AHA.
>Also, we have never sold or given the HBD distribution list to anyone other
>than Pat & Karl
And yet Arnold Neitzke has already told us (in HBD 2378) that he
received a complete copy of the HBD subscriber list from the AOB/AHA
simply by sending a request to their majordomo server. So, Brian, your
claim that you have never given out the list lacks truth. You've given
it out to at least one person, and possibly to dozens of spammers.
Kelly
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:57:20 -0800
From: Charles Rich <CharlesR@saros.com>
Subject: decoction processing
In HBD #2380 Charley (perplexed in N. California) calls for a discussion
about decoction processing
Here's my two bits (place change in the courtesy cup) on my
non-tradional decoction:
First, regarding protein rests, I think of protein rests in a way very
similar to saccarification rests. Depending on your rest temps you can
develop proteins that will remain in the finished beer or not, just as
you develop sugars that will ferment out or remain as flavor
contributors. I give consideration to the protein profile of my beer
as much as I do my sugar profile.
Resting at lower temps like 112-122F (45-50C) develops simpler proteins
(good for yeast growth but unlikely to be necessary) in a way similar to
beta-amylase and still leaves abundant large molecular weight proteins.
Too long at this temp however will degrade your medium weight proteins
costing you mouthfeel and body in your finished beer. If you really
want to reduce those qualities this is the place to do it. Personally I
rarely perform this rest although I did recently in a 6-row + corn
recipe. This rest is called for though, if you should have a glucanate
problem in your finished beer -- never seen it.
Resting at temps around 125-140F (51-60C) will develop medium weight
proteins by degrading large molecular weight proteins. Again, the
medium weight proteins are the ones you really want for your beer, the
largest proteins are otherwise a wasted protein source since they'll
largely coagulate in the boil and drop out as hot break and as cold
break.
I generally rest at 135F (57C) to keep away from my beta-amylase range
and degrade my largest proteins into medium weight proteins. This also
helps develop beta-amylase for the sugar rests later. I "park" my mash
here while cooking the decoc fraction. In a non-decoc mash I would
still rest here about 25-40 minutes depending on the grain bill
Because I want to exploit as much starch as possible in a decoc, and
because my personal quest is lazy brewing, I cook the biggest, thickest
fraction of the mash possible, including a mini-rest at 156F (69C)
before boil, and then cool it back to temp with an immersion chiller
before adding back to the remaining fraction. When pulling a big
fraction consider that you still need enzymes for the mini-rest so be
sure to carry over a good portion of the liquid too. In cooking a decoc
fraction of 3-gallons (12L) of grain I usually carry over about another
gallon or gallon and a half (4-6L) of liquid.
Since I heat directly, this method spares me from having to do thermal
mass calculations and still renders the bulk of starch available with
all the benefits of cooking (Maillard reactions) in one decoc step.
Double and triple decocs with small fractions double and triple-cook
some of the grain, which is tastier, with each cooking, there's no
reason not to do the same while resting in the upper proteolytic stage
either.
When added back, the enzyme system is ready to go, medium weight
proteins are developed and I go through my saccarification stop(s)
deliberately. I think cooking smaller decocs while resting in
saccarification temps may sometimes force you to overdevelop sugars you
don't want for your profile. Infusion mashers can work out the thermal
mass equations for what temp the decoc has to be when added back, to
raise the whole mash to their next step.
Cheers
Charley (not-a-guru in Seattle, USA)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:06 PST
From: cburns@egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Re: Input for decoction discussion
At 02:43 PM 3/21/97 UT, C&S Peterson wrote:
>Charlie and other HBDers:
>
<snip>
>
>Charlie asks for what fractions/density mash he should be shooting for when he
>"pulls" the decoction. I am in favor of (and this may be a repeat of previous
>emails): mashing in at 1Q per #, pulling enough grains to constitute 1/3 of
>the total mash volume (this may in fact be 1/2 of the grains -- I've never
>been really exact about this part of the procedure), adding boiling water to
>the decoction mash (usually about 1/2Q per #) to get to 160F, resting, boiling
>for the prescribed decoction, and re-combining with the rest mash.
>
This is a really interesting sounding idea. Take it straight from 140f to
158-160F without the 15-20 minute step by step method. This would create a
highly dextrinous wort though, and for an Oktoberfest type it might be more
appropriate than for a Vienna which is what I'm shootin' for. It has the
added benefit of shortening the decoction process by 20 minutes or so.
Definite benefit.
<snip>
I'll definitely keep this idea around for future 'fests or bocks.
Charley
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:04:19 EST
From: maggiered@juno.com (Margaret S Johnson)
Subject: Maui brew pubs
I'm planning a trip to Maui next month and would greatly appreciate
information on brew pubs located on the island (am I dreaming). Any
information about fun activities off the usual tourist path would also be
appreciated. Private e-mail okay. appologies in advance if this is a
repeat message-I'v been having trouble w/the server.
tia
maggie-red
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:47:11 EST
From: petersonj1@juno.com (John C Peterson)
Subject: Dog killing hops?
Come on! I can see it now: Rover got killed by the Saaz, and Lassie ate
the Cascades!
The killer bees are coming for us all too.
John C. Peterson
Aurora, Colorado
petersonj1@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/6841
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 16:01:43 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella@msn.com>
Subject: Corn
Jeff says,
>I hope you will enter this brew in some competitions. It is recognized
>as a style now in the category "Classic Pilsner" along with German
>and Bohemian Pilsners, but we need to enter to keep it.
I think we need to do some educating while we're at it. I entered a Cream
Ale , which can be a high adjunct beer, at last years Saint Paul Brewing
Competition. All the remarks came back saying that it had a little DMS.
It did not go on. A national judge thats runs a brew pub asked me to bring
my cream ale and a steam beer to the awards presentation to try. He said
that the cream ale had DMS. Corn is DMS. If you taste it in a Chech Pils
than there is a problem, but not in a Miller clone. This year I am using rice
as an adjunct, we will see how it does.
Who started that stupid "hey read this it's cool" letter, I would like to
spam his ass.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 14:34:15 -0600
From: Tim & Marilyn <brokenskull@earthlink.net>
Subject: extract to grain conversions
Im wondering how to easily convert extracts to grain. For example if I
needed a can of unhopped amber, or dark what grains are used and how much
or each???? I'm moving towards all grain brewing and want to try some of
my extract recipies.
tks
Tim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 16:06:55 +1100 (EST)
From: David Townsend <davidt@southcom.com.au>
Subject: Re: Edme Pressure Barrel
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 20:33:38 -0800
From: Doug Otto <dotto@calweb.com>
Subject: Edme Pressure Barrel
Doug Otto was asking about experience with these. I have used one for
several years and can honestly say I prefer it to bottling. There are lots
of advantaGES. If you only depend on the co2 cartridges, then it would work
out expensive. I ussually prime the barrel and leave it for a few weeks
before consumption. Then I find I need to top up with cartridges towards
the end. They still mature with time in the same way as bottled beers,
within reason. I have seriously considered buying another so that one is
ready for drinking, and on is maturing.
You can fill bottles (eg PTFE for a party) but they go flat quickly.
If I can set up cheaply enough with a soda tanks and CO2, then I would go
this way rather than a second Edme barrel. Spemding too much on the house
and garden at the moment though.
Nigel Townsend,
Hobart, Tasmania
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:03:44 +1500
From: Gavin Scarman <scarman@satech.net.au>
Subject: need good head
I've had good head before so I will recognise it when I get it. The thing
is I'm not sure what gave me good head. Also what is it that causes the
good head I get to last longer?
Seriously I think I read somewhere that it's the protein that causes the
head to form. Who can tell me more about this visual aspect?
- ----------------------------------
http://www.satech.net.au/~scarman
mailto:scarman@satech.net.au
- ----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:42:58 -0800
From: Callahan <homebrew@pacbell.net>
Subject: Guiness on tap @home
I have been brewing for a year or so and I have my homebrew on tap.
Lately I have been brewing stouts and would like to be able to draw a
stout with the same creamy head as guiness. I tried using nitrogen but
it wasn't the same. A bartender friend said I need a guiness tap and a
mix of CO2 and nitrogen in one tank. Anyone know how I can get a pint of
stout that is just like guiness draught?
Thanks for any help you could post and email me... homebrew@pacbell.net
Bernadette
- --
Reduce - Reuse - Recycle
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:17:02 -0600 (CST)
From: milledon@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Setup in New House
Good Day Everyone,
I have a great opportunity. I am building a new home in the western chicago
suburbs. A new home means that I might be able to build in some of the
facilities to greatly improve my beer brewing capabilities. Currently I set
up and tear down after each batch. I was wondering if there are any good
resources to show a homebrewery set-up. I have looked at the writing in the
book called Brew Ware but would like some more information. I have been an
extract brewer but the new house gives me a great chance to build the home
brewery. Send e-mails to milledon@ix.netcom.com. Thanks in advance!
Don
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 07:29:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Hal Davis <davis@planolaw.com>
Subject: Re: Lemon Lager
To Stan Ridgeway:
I tried sending you a private thank-you for your post, but it got bounced.
Apparently you have an anti-Spam reply-to in your header. If you'll email me
your address, I'll send on the thank-you letter.
Hal Davis
Proprietor, the Safety Brewery, Plano, Texas
Member North Texas Home Brewers Association
Ignorance can be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:29:33 +0700
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp@mail.chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: constant RIMS pumping + RIMS dough-in?
Jason Henning asked in #2380:
>Do you RIMSers let the pump run the whole time? Or just to do >temperature
raises and now and then to maintain a rest temperature?
I run mine constantly, killing it only after mashout. Helps keep the temp.
uniform in the RIMS tun methinks. Although I haven't tried it, I reckon one
could kill the pump after the wort clears and just use it for temp boosts.
If you do stop the pump, make real sure you kill the power to the heater!
Electrically interlocking the heater and the pump would be a *very* good
idea if you plan intermittant pumping. A relay with coil wired in parallel
with the pump's power feed and a set of normally open contacts wired in
series with the heater's power is one way to interlock them.
>Any other tips are welcome as well.
Don't start the pump initially at a high flow, start at a low or no flow and
work up to avoid a stuck mash.
Arrange *all* of the piping between the pump's suction and the tun so that
there are no sections which would trap air or, alternatively, provide an air
vent at the top of all trapped sections. Pockets of trapped air will reduce
the flow and may cause HSA. Along this line, made sure the pump suction
piping is air-tight; just because the piping doesn't leak wort doesn't mean
it's air-tight.
- ---------------
How do you other RIMS users dough-in? I typically fill my RIMS with water,
recirc and heat it, kill the pump and heater, stir in the grain well, let
settle for 5 mins. or so then start recirculating and heating. I know it's
recommended that water be added to the malt instead of the back-assward way
I do it. Anyone see any problems with this?
TIA!
c.d. pritchard cdp@chattanooga.net
http://caladan.chattanooga.net/~cdp/index.html
------------------------------
End of HOMEBREW Digest #2381, 03/24/97
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