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HOMEBREW Digest #2266
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/11/07 PST
Homebrew Digest Thursday, 7 November 1996 Number 2266
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
MMMs ((George J Fix))
Slurry, Wyeast 3944, Mini keg bungs (snsi@win.bright.net)
forgot to snip ((BAYEROSPACE))
mash and sparge pH ((BAYEROSPACE))
[none] () <- Just kidding! 3944 and Archives (RUSt1d?)
Cider and Wheat Yeasts (RUSt1d?)
Cider and Wheat Yeasts (RUSt1d?)
No Sparge Question (Raymond Louvier)
Relationship btwn immersion Chiller outfow & wort temp ((Mike Spinelli))
Dry Hopping Techniques/Rogue Pacman/Hop Oils/Essences ((Mike Spinelli))
Re: Oxygenation (hollen@vigra.com)
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
sparging (or not) ("Curt Speaker")
[none] ()
Siphoning (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
Torrefied Wheat, Invert Sugar (Nathan Moore)
Re: Irish Moss, Peroxygen ("David R. Burley")
Re: Skittles, ("David R. Burley")
[none] ()
Re: LactoCaps ("David R. Burley")
Mead fermentation (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
[none] ()
Revisit alpha and calcium ("David R. Burley")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gjfix@utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:09:57 -0600
Subject: MMMs
I have received e-mail concerning mathematical models for mashes. These
are usually based on the enzyme kinetics equations, and have found
increasing application to brewing in recent years. My own version has
played a crucial role in my new book. BTW the latter is complete
(for the third and final time!), and is the hands of Brewers Publ. We
are hoping it will appear in early '97.
Because of the importance of the math mashing models one is starting
to see commercial quality software using them appear. One of the
more interesting versions is a code developed by VTT Automation of
Espoo, Finland. They gave a very impressive presentation at the
1995 MBAA meeting in Portland. An extended abstract of this can be found
in the July, 1995 issue of Brewers Digest (page 30). They are
modeling not only carbohydrates (wort sugars and gums like beta-
glucans), but also the full spectrum of proteins relevant to beer.
They are also claiming their software is user-friendly and can be
run on PCs. I (unfortunately!) have no assocition with this organization.
George Fix
------------------------------
From: snsi@win.bright.net
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:28:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Slurry, Wyeast 3944, Mini keg bungs
Howdy HBD'ers,
I haven't seen an answer about my question on yeast slurry, possibly a
[none] reply? So again is a slurry with fruit, hops, trub, etc... worth
keeping?
Now to new business. I'm making a white/wit beer and pitched a pint starter
of Wyeast 3944, it's been in high kausen for 4 days, how long will this go
like this? It looks just like bread dough, smells like orange slices and
just keeps plugging away.
Lastly, someone mentioned using the bung from a mini keg as a stopper for a
Gott cooler type mash/lauter tun. Whoever you are do I have to worry about
off flavors from the rubber bung?
TIA
Jeff Smith
End the un-digested mode, 50k per day and add a cancel feature.
Jeff Smith | '71 HD Sprint 350SX, Temp '77 GS 400 X
snsi@win.bright.net | Barnes, WI
I am so pleased that the mead is brewed!-Jane Austen
------------------------------
From: M257876@sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:42 -0600
Subject: forgot to snip
collective homebrew conscience:
sorry about the last message. i forgot to snip.
brewing: has anyone used black treacle? i'm considering using some in an
old ale sometime soon.
brew hard,
mark bayer
------------------------------
From: M257876@sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:39 -0600
Subject: mash and sparge pH
collective homebrew conscience:
anton wrote:
>I have read in various places that mash sparge water should have
>a starting ph of 5.6, should the water I use to mash also have
>a low ph ? Does it matter ?
what's important is not the pH of the water you mash with, it's the pH of
the mash itself, after you've added the grains. i believe pH is not as
reliable an indicator as mineral content of the water for determining if it
will be suitable for mashing.
and, yes, it does matter. enzyme activity is dependent on temperature and
pH, among other things.
>what effect will useing sparge water with a ph of 7 do to my brew ?
using pH 7 water for sparging will cause your runoff pH to gradually rise.
when the pH of the runoff gets above a certain level (i think it's about
6), the extraction of undesirable substances can start to affect the flavor
of your beer. it's mostly tannins and husk polyphenols, i think.
if you monitor the runoff pH, there's probably a cutoff value that you would
want to stop sparging at. it's easier to just adjust your sparge water pH
and not worry about it.
brew hard,
mark bayer
- ------------------------------
From: Anton Schoenbacher <aschoenb@eecs.wsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 11:39:39 PST
Subject: too much yeast
I got another one. On friday I brewed another basic ale, I'm
trying to get my all-grain process down. I went to my local
brewpub and got some yeast from his fermenter. The yeast they
use is a Nottingham Ale yeast. He gave me about a 20 oz jar
filled with nice creamy yeast sediment from his fermenter.
He told me to use about 1/4 of it, which I did. About an
hour or so after pitching yeast I had 3 inches of foam on my
wort and it was churning like a mother. Next day fermentation
activity was at a minimum. Sunday I racked to secondary and
gravity was 1.015 (O.G. was 1.060) but the stuff smelled like
grapefruit. I read in 'Brew Chem 101' that this could be from
pitching too much yeast. Should I have made a starter from
the yeast I got instead of dumping in about 1/2 cup of pure
yeast ?
- - --
*****Anton Schoenbacher*****aschoenb@eecs.wsu.edu*****
- ------------------------------
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From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham@i-link.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 14:04:54 -0600
Subject: No sparge brewing -- Again!
David R. Burley, in a critique of "no sparge" brewing, asks:
> Why go to the time and trouble of making a brew if you're going to throw a
lot of it away just to save a few minutes? Would you pour two
gallons of your beer down the sink?
The answer is simple: to make better beer! Yes, no sparge brewing is
nominally more expensive, but yields a maltier tasting product in less
time. (See George Fix's original article on the subject in the HBD
archives.) Indeed, most brewing experts (including both Dr. Fix and Dr.
Paul Farnsworth) will tell you that no sparge (a/k/a "first runnings"
brewing") gives a higher quality beer. Frankly, the main reason why I
use the "no sparge" method is not to save time but to increase the
quality of what I brew!
And, as I've said before, if it bothers you to "waste" the sugars left
in the spent grains, just steep them in hot water while your main mash
is boiling. When you're through with the boil and you've emptied the
kettle, just drain off and boil up these "second runnings" with a
handful of hops and you've got a supply of either high grade yeast
starter or low grade beer wort. Beer made from these "second runnings"
is the "small beer" which Shakespeare piloried (Henry VI, Part II, Act
IV, Scene ii).
- ------------------------------
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From: Anton Schoenbacher <aschoenb@eecs.wsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 14:15:32 PST
Subject: undigest
How do I get on the undigest version ?
- - --
*****Anton Schoenbacher*****aschoenb@eecs.wsu.edu*****
- ------------------------------
From: Brian Bliss <brianb@microware.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 17:16:00 CST
Subject: Re: can I use any other GAS tank "bottle" for my CO2???
> I can get a small Oxygen tank rated at 1800 pounds for $20 and don't know
> if I can use it for my homebrew.
I would work, but the fittings will not be the same and no place will
fill it for you. O2 tanks use different threads than other gases to
prevent just what your doing. Using an O2 tank for other gases isn't
harmful in itself (provided it has been completely emptied before
refilling), but you don't want to use anything but an O2 tank which
has ONLY been filled with O2 for O2. O2 can react with residual liquids
(mainly oils in the fittings and regulators), but great care has been
taken to keep O2 tanks and other tanks separate, and if you filled
the O2 tank with CO2, you would have a potentially dangerous situation
when someone scarfed up the cheap bottle and took it to be refilled
it with O2.
bb
- - ------------------------------
- ------------------------------
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d@li.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 18:58:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: road trip
At 12:04 PM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I will be driving to DC, Wilmington,DE, Philadelphia,E. Rutherford, NJ,
>and NYC from Atlanta in the next few weeks.I will be returning to Atlanta,
>probably taking 2 days to do so, but I haven't worked that part of the
>trip out yet. Anyway, will the collective email me suggestions on beers
>sites along the way (brewpubs,beer bars,must sees, tours, etc), all
>recommendations will be appreciated. Also, if there are suggestions on
>where to buy the higher alcohol Belgian beers that I love or rare
>microbrews, send them to me.TIA, lee
>
Copa Two in Phila has belgians on tap.
- ------------------------------
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From: Bill Watt <wattbrew@buffnet.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 20:12:39 -0800
Subject: Gas bottles
Raymond wants to know:
"Any suggestions on where I can get an acceptable tank, cheap ?"
Try a place that refills fire extinguishers. I went to my local fire
extinguisher refill place with my 20# bottle and he was selling all
sizes of co2 bottles. Better yet, if your real lucky, you might be able
to find one for free or cheap at a garage sale.
- - --
Brewing beer in Lancaster, NY
Watt's Brewing
Bill Watt - wattbrew@buffnet.net
- ------------------------------
From: gscott@io.org (Geoff Scott)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 21:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: CF CHiller cleaning/sanitizing
Bob uses a corny to fill his counterflow chiller but my sanitizer is self
propelled. I steam clean my chiller and it couldn't be easier.
(How's that for brevity? How about digest software that puts a smaller
limit on the length of a post and won't allow the exact same post in a
single digest?)
regards,
Geoff Scott
gscott@io.org
Brewing page http://www.io.org/~gscott
- ------------------------------
From: Rick Dante <rdante@pnet.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:35:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SNPA not bottling with "chico" rumors?
I've heard a rumor that Sierra Nevada is not using their Chico yeast in
their bottled conditioned SNPA anymore. Is this true? If it is I better
get a package of 1056 because I cultured a fresh plate from a bottle of
SNPA to replace my dead chico colonies that were 2 1/2 years old.
Rick Dante
rdante@pnet.net
- ------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2264
****************************
------------------------------
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d@li.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:03:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [none] () <- Just kidding! 3944 and Archives
>Now to new business. I'm making a white/wit beer and pitched a pint starter
>of Wyeast 3944, it's been in high kausen for 4 days, how long will this go
>like this? It looks just like bread dough, smells like orange slices and
>just keeps plugging away.
My wit wit' 3944 has been fermenting since 10/26 and still has a rocky, fat
krausen floating on top. I've have swirled the carboys and dropped this
krausen back in and it just rises right back up after a few hours. My temp
dropped to 60F and things slooooowed down considerably. My 'boys now sit next
to the radiator @ 72F and bubble every 10 secs or so. (searches of the HBD
archives indicate that 70F+ is optimal for this yeast).
Search the archives at: http://nemesis.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread
This search engine has answered many questions that I would have otherwise
posted to the un-digest. Such as how a particular strain of yeast behaves,
or brewing with maple, or converting from pin to ball locks... Chances are
somebody has asked the exact (or extract?) question you are.
Keep the un-digested mode, send all posts at midnight, and add a cancel
feature.
Undigested posts are easier to archive and reply to. Sending all posts at
midnight will keep people from replying immediately to posts. Adding the
cancel feature will allow us to delete redundant posts.
If i'm not drinking it, i'm thinking it...
John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co. "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."
------------------------------
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d@li.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:30:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cider and Wheat Yeasts
My local hb shop is doing a cider pressing next weekend. I currently have
a batch of wit wit' 3944 and a batch of weizen with 3068 fermenting and
I am considering using these yeasts in a couple of ciders. I'd be pitching
the cider on top of the yeast cakes from the primary fermenters. Any
sugestions on using these yeasts? If not, thanks anyways.
- --
John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co. "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."
------------------------------
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d@li.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:25:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cider and Wheat Yeasts
My local hb shop is doing a cider pressing next weekend. I currently have
a batch of wit wit' 3944 and a batch of weizen with 3068 fermenting and
I am considering using these yeasts in a couple of ciders. I'd be pitching
the cider on top of the yeast cakes from the primary fermenters. Any
sugestions on using these yeasts? If not, thanks anyways.
- --
John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co. "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."
------------------------------
From: Raymond Louvier <r099g@waii.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 13:24:41 -0600
Subject: No Sparge Question
I have been following the no sparge thread and I was wondering what about
after draining the mash you just add water to the grains to 170 degrees and
let it sit 10 minutes and drain again. This seems like it would get some of
the left over sugars and leave less behind. This would still shorten the brew
time and get more from the grains. It would also give more wort to boil. Any
thoughts on this?
Ray Louvier
brewing in Houston.
------------------------------
From: paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 14:56:55 est
Subject: Relationship btwn immersion Chiller outfow & wort temp
HBDers,
Without blowing me away with all kinds of math n'shit, can someone tell me if
there is a close correlation between the immersion chiller outflow temp and the
wort temp?
I'd like to be able to put the thermometer in a bucket as the immersion water
outflow fiils it up to get an idea of the wort temp inside the keg. Are these
two temps. close? Close enough?
Mike in Cherry Hill NJ
------------------------------
From: paa3983@dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 14:56:04 est
Subject: Dry Hopping Techniques/Rogue Pacman/Hop Oils/Essences
HBDers,
Tom Penn in 2259 asks about Rogue's Pacman yeast. I have it on good authority
that the Brewtek Cal Pub CL-50 is the Pacman strain. I've used it mant times
with great results. Really brings out the malt profile. Even with this yeast
and lots of exotic malts , I'm still not getting that "Rogue" flavor. I can't
really pin it down. Hops? Custom Spec'd malt? Who knows?
********************
Todd Bruce in 2259 asks about dry hop techniques. Well forget the weights,
marbles and concrete shoes. Buy a plastic racking cane, stick it in the carboy
and cut the curve off where the cane just rests under the rubber stopper. Take
your dry hops and fill up a muslin bag. Squish the bag thru the carboy opening
and take the sanitized modified cane and "stab" at the hop bag til you've
snagged it. Push down on the cane til the hop bag is at the bottom of the 'boy.
The rubber stopper will hold the cane down. Just make sure the cane doesn't bl
ock the stopper hole.
***********************
Hop Oils/Essences. What's up with these? Since I don't feel like waiting 2
weeks to dry hop, can I get the same or better effect from hop oils/essences in
the bottling bucket? Seems like the aroma would be better captured if added in
the bottle as opposed to the secondary. Any real life stories/
Mike in Cherry Hill NJ
------------------------------
From: hollen@vigra.com
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 96 12:42:08 PST
Subject: Re: Oxygenation
>> Maribeth Raines, Asst Prof writes:
First off, thanks for taking the time to step into this discussion.
Your expertise in this area is much appreciated by us "shade tree
yeast farmers". B-}
Maribeth> As far as Dion's oxygenating under pressure, I question how
Maribeth> much oxygen actually gets dissolved in your system. Do you
Maribeth> shake? You may be getting less O2 than you think. Dennis
Maribeth> Davidson's data with the Oxygenator suggest that the
Maribeth> equilibration rate is much slower if it is sufficiently
Maribeth> dissolved. Again I find this hard to believe based on my
Maribeth> own personal experience but plan to test for myself.
I agree that I may be getting less DO than I think, but still, my
technique *seems* that it should produce a good level and my quick
ferments seem to prove it out. No, I do not shake, but bleed the O2
in through a 2 micron sintered SS "stone" at the lowest pressure
possible to cause it to bubble (determined by listening to the keg).
When it stops bubbling, I turn up the pressure about 2 psi, just
enough to get bubbles once again. This keeps a fairly constant stream
of very small bubbles with a very large resulting surface area flowing
into the wort for about 45 minutes before my full 20 psi
pressurizaition is reached. Since I have no method at all for
measuring DO, I cannot say quantatively about my results.
------------------------------
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From: "Curt Speaker" <speaker@safety-1.univsfty.psu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:26:33 EST
Subject: sparging (or not)
Greetings fellow zymurgists:
I guess I am missing something on this whole "no-sparge" debate.
I just read Scott Bridges pro and con (Scott and I know each other
from WAY back in college), but I don't think sparging is that
timeconsuming, difficult or equipment intensive.
Hell, I think on of the neatest things about all-grain brewing is
watching the sparging process, especially if you have the Listerman
Phil's sparge arm (best $15 I ever spent). All you need besides that
is a bucket with a spigot to hold your hot water. Sparging is really
the transition process where you go from a bucket full of grain to a
kettle full of wort.
My questions are:
*Why would you WANT to use 30% more grain? (didn't you start
all-grain brewing to make better beer & make it cheaper?)
*Why mess with a process that has worked well for centuries?
*Why waste all of that extra grain and leave all that sugar behind
for the bugs in your compost heap?
I guess I need to read George Fix's article about no-sparge brewing
if I want to fully understand this whole discussion - what magazine
was it in anyway???
confused...
Curt (still making beer the old fashion way by sparging)
speaker@ehs.psu.edu
------------------------------
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From: Bob Bessette/PicTel
Date: 6 Nov 96 16:24:20 EDT
Subject: Siphoning
Fellow HBDers,
I have a process question. In order to rack my beer I always add water to my
siphon hose and then put the hose with racking cane into my beer and the other
end into the rack-to carboy. I am not sterilizing the water I put into the
siphon tube. Am I running a major risk of infection here? Do others who siphon
in this manner sterilize the water they use to start the siphon?
Please send private email to bbessett@pictel.com...
Cheers,
Bob Bessette
------------------------------
From: Nathan Moore <moorent@bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:48:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Torrefied Wheat, Invert Sugar
I'm planning on using 1 lb of torrefied wheat in my next batch.
Has anyone used this before. Supposably it is a lightly toasted puffed
wheat. My question is, can I steep this before the boil or does it need
to be mashed? The description I found on it said it is already cooked so
I don't need to cook it. I have no idea what this means. Does cook=mash?
Also, has any one tried making invert sugar from demerara or
turbinadu. I was hopping to get the flavors from the demerara/turbinadu
with the fermentability of the invert. Any suggestions or experience will
help. I'm also looking for the cheapest or most available acid to add
when inverting the sugar so suggestions here are welcome.
Thanks in advance and private e-mail is welcome.
Nathan Moore
Denver, CO
------------------------------
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Nov 96 16:56:21 EST
Subject: Re: Irish Moss, Peroxygen
Brewsters:
Mark Brew Hard Bayer has nearly identical batches, but the first is cloudy and
had only a little trub, the second is clear and has more trub.>
> the first batch:
>
> 1. didn't utilize a protein rest
> 2. didn't have irish moss added
> 3. had an 80 minute sparge (very slow, on purpose)
> 4. used ekg hop pellets
>
> the second batch:
>
> 1. utilized a 20 minute protein rest at 122 F
> 2. used irish moss 30 minutes BEOB
> 3. had a 55 minute sparge ( a little faster flow)
> 4. used all whole hops (my preference, actually)
>
If I had one vote, I'd guess the Irish Moss is the reason. Another name for
this is Copper ( the boiler) Finings. The IM reacts with protein to bring it
out of solution and co-agulate it. The protein rest may have played a role in
terms of shortening up the soluble protein so the tannin complex is more
soluble
at RT.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
AH - The only worry I have is the rate of decomposition of Hydrogen Peroxide,
because I shudder to think what it would do to yeast. Anyone have a rate
law for this reaction handy?
DRB - Aaron Herrick suggests using hydrogen peroxide as a source of oxygen in
his brew. I don't know where I heard this but I believe hydrogen peroxide has a
stabilizer that keeps the peroxide in the water until it comes in contact with
iron or certain enzymes. Can anyone confirm this?
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202@compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Nov 96 16:56:25 EST
Subject: Re: Skittles,
Brewsters:
> I guess I can forgive the one non-brewing post as we need something
> to remind us that not everything is skittles and beer (what the heck
> are skittles anyway, I mean the saying predates the candy by that
> name?).
Skittles is a now disappeared British pub game in which a ball, tied by a
string to a supported rod perpendicular to a table, is used to knock over
miniature ninepins on the table, like a table bowling game, except you get two
passes one forward, the other back. I also think the name applies to a real
sized nine-pin game where you rolled balls or slid a disk, but have never seen
one in a pub. Socially, skittles filled the same niche as that long
shuffleboard table with the steel pucks and sand on a hardwood table did in the
US - until electronic games came around. Personally, I liked the skittles and
the shuffleboard and most of the beer back then, but then I'm just an old
romantic, I guess. I can't imagine what Skittles (R) the candy and beer would
taste like!
- -------------------------------------------------------
Raymond Kasprowicz asks about ball lock vs pin locks for Cornies:
Is there any advantage of one over the other ?
Are there different prices for parts ? ( is one more readily available ?)
Which one is more popular and easily obtained ??
If where up to you, which one would you buy ??
No survey, but I have read and my own experience is that ball lock is more
popular and has more attachments, e.g. the carbonator. I like ball lock, but
some with pinlock will differ and it doesn't really make a lot of difference
pricewise.
- ------------------------------
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman@rohmhaas.com>
In HBD2261, Al writes:
Actually I wrote the first part and Al was questioning the second part.
DRB:
> 1) that in a low-calcium environment you would get "poor efficiency and a
> more fermentable wort than expected because the alpha amylase is less
> stable than in a higher calcium environment. Ergo, efficiency suffers
> if the alpha amylase disappears before the starch is completely converted
> to soluble carbohydrates."
AlK:
> I agree with the first sentence in 1, but the second sentence and all
> of 2 are news to me.
DW says:
Here's my 2 bits on the effect of calcium.
For 2 years, I brewed with r/o water with no added salts. Calcium level
was essentially nil.
DRB - Not quite true, the malt supplies about 10-30 ppm as my best guess.
DW - I observed good efficiencys using a 1 hour mashs
at 155-156F, with reasonable attenuations.
DRB - How do you define "good"
DW - When I started adding in gypsum to get 50-100 ppm Ca, my conversion
efficiency was the same, but attenuation went way down. I had to drop
my mash temperature to 150-152F to get the attenuation I was used to.
I take this as support for more fermentability in low calcium worts, but
I don't see any effect on overall efficiency.
I think that once I started adding calcium, alpha amylase played a
bigger role in my conversion,
DRB - yes, I agree
DW - so that I had to drop the mash temperature
to allow beta to compete. In the low calcium mashes, beta dominated
even at high temperatures due to poor stability of the alpha amylase.
DRB - Beta and alpha do not compete. Beta depends on Alpha to provide it with
substrate. Beta has a shorter lifetime than alpha under almost all
circumstances of interest to us. However, if the alpha activity was higher
because less alpha had disappeared in the higher calcium mash, more starch
would
be reduced to LMW starch and dextrins *while the beta was still there*. The
beta
would then be able to convert these to sugars. This would explain these results
of a higher % fermentability in a higher calcium mash in terms of the
conventional model. After the beta was gone, the alpha could continue on to
produce more dextrins and LMW starch as well as about 20% sugar. Since we
don't have your numbers on efficiency I can guess that perhaps the limiting
factor on your efficiency is the milling of the malt. I showed some cases a
few days ago where poor milling produced very poor efficiencies even though
they were run for 90 minutes' mash time. Less calcium possibly would have given
me the same efficiency results, I don't know.
To put it more succinctly - For a situation in which the limiting factor is
alpha stability, low concentrations of calcium will produce a lower efficiency
of conversion of starch.Or as I said in my original exposition: If the starch
is
still around after the alpha is gone it will result in a lower efficiency - or
something like that.
Again, many of these enzyme concentration and activity issues don't exist with
high enzyme malts like they do with low enzyme malts.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
A.J De Lange says:
Mark Bayer asked why brewers aren't cautioned about over oxygenation
killing yeast. The reason is that you would have to work pretty hard to
establish and maintain a high enough oxygen level to do this. I really
don't know what level of exposure and time period would be required to harm
yeast
DRB - I believe George Fix said ppm in the teens are toxic to yeast.
Yeast will scavenge oxygen amazingly fast and of course the more of it they can
get
the faster they will grow given that the other things they need are
available. In a properly pitched wort there should be enough yeast cells
present to consume oxygen at several hundred percent saturation within an
hour or so.
DRB - agreed. I read somewhere that in a commercial bakery yeast culture the
saturated state of oxygen is reduced to zero in 10 - 12 seconds when the
culture
is at full capacity and the oxygen is shut off.
All this makes me wonder why saturating the wort to 10 ppm or so is so
important, even though it clearly appears to affect yeast's ability to
attenuate
a wort based on past discussions and literature. Its effect seems out of
proportion, especially since it is there only at the beginning. I know the
conventional explanation is the health of the yeast cell wall but it still
puzzles me. I guess I need some more hard data..
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202@compuserve.com
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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Nov 96 16:56:17 EST
Subject: Re: LactoCaps
Dave in Indy,
I would have sent this by private e-mail but I zapped the HBD eds.
Nice name! You asked where you can:
> get a product called LactoCaps (?), a culture of lactobacillus
> freeze-dried and filled into gelatin capsules for ease of use.
Try your health food store. I think these are used to increase lactobacilli in
your intestine and not for use in making yoghurt.
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202@compuserve.com
------------------------------
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb@elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:07:29 -0300 (UY)
Subject: Mead fermentation
Dear friends,
I finally racked my first mead from the primary to the secondary after
around 24 days. Gravity dropped from 1.100 to 1.000 and alcohol content
is around 12% according to my calculation. Color is orange-red or
something similar and flavor is kind of yeasty. The wort contained 7.5 kg
of honey and 1.3 kg of strawberies diluted with water to 25 L. I used S.
bayanus (champagne yeasts) and fermentation was constant since the very
beginning. I have no idea about how long I should keep it in the
secondary though I received messages telling me that mead fermentation
may take a long time. I would like to try it in a couple of weeks,
though. How would I know when it it ready for bottling? Just a
gravity measurement? I do not want to open the carboy to extract
samples considering that in this way I ease spoilage and off
flavors. Should I prime it or meads are not carbonated? In case I prime
it, I think I would rack it to another container with glucose (how much?)
and then to the bottles. Am I right?
I would appreciate your suggestions.
Jorge Blasig
PS. A similar message was sent yesterday though it was not published.
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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 06 Nov 96 22:44:07 EST
Subject: Revisit alpha and calcium
Brewsters:
AlK writes:
>I appreciate Dave's kind words and will try to be less terse (which can
>sound very beligerent) and be more "friendly"... much more in the proper
>spirit of the HBD.
Great! We really love your quality contributions.
>1) that in a low-calcium environment you would get "poor efficiency and a
> more fermentable wort than expected because the alpha amylase is less
> stable than in a higher calcium environment. Ergo, efficiency suffers
> if the alpha amylase disappears before the starch is completely converted
> to soluble carbohydrates."
DRB -If the alpha amylase is unstabilized for any reason such that it does not
last until all the starch is gone, then the efficiency will suffer. Calcium
ion, temperature, concentration of the wort, malt grist size are all things
which can affect the alpha stability and/or rate of conversion of starch to
sugar. Estimates from M&BS indicate that in normly mashes alpha amylase is
around for two
hours or more. I believe low calcium ion can exacerbate the inefficiency
experienced.
Calcium ion concentration controls or is at least a major factor in alpha
amylase stability along with pH. M&BS mentions it quite a few times and I
believe Tracy Aquilla mentioned it that commercial preparations enzymes are
stabilized with calcium ions. If the alpha disappears before the starch
disappears, the efficiency will be lower.
Too high a temperature will denature alpha amylase and prevent it from
converting starch. The mashout temperature of 167F will do this quickly. I
suspect lower calcium ion concentration will exacerbate the rate of
disappearance at all temperatures if I understand M&BS correctly. Whether or
not
it will be significant to the conversion of starch will depend on mash and
grist
conditions and whether the mash is held to completion or to a certain time.
Higher concentration mashes are slower at saccharification, I don't know what
the delimiting step is here, whether it is the alpha or beta or both.
Grist size is of course a major factor in efficiency as I have shown in a
recent
submission to HBD. This can only be due to the slow rate of conversion of
starch to soluble starch and sugars by the alpha amylase. In this case, the
alpha and beta disappear before the starch and the efficiency suffers. If this
were not the case and the alpha were present but the beta wasn't , then low OG
resulting from poorly ground batches would exhibit a higher FG than normal
batches. To my knowledge and my experience, this is not the case, just lower
alcohol. This says the beta is around long enough to convert the LMW starches
to
sugars, as well as the alpha producing some. I can only presume from my reading
that at lower concentrations of calcium that poor grinds would be even less
efficient since the alpha wouldn't be around so long.
2) "Most true Pilzens use a lager malt low in husk tannins..."
DRB Insert "which is" between "malt" and "low".
It now reads "Most true Pilzens use a lager malt, which is low in husk
tannins,.......
This is true, although early Czech Plzen malts were supposedly special, just
like their hops, I didn't mean to imply that the malts were chosen for their
low husk tannin content. I was just saying the brewer could get away with a
higher pH of 5.6 or 5.7 in the mash because the husks in the malt were low in
tannin, relative to the 6- row, for example. Which as you pointed out in a
subsequent comment, is true generally of two row malts, largely because
the husk to kernel weight is lower as well as the actual tannin content per
husk
weight. Just too compact in my language use again and I see how it could
sound out of context.
3) "They [malts] will slowly lose their enzymatic powers, but it will
take several years, based on my personal experience."
AlK - I agree with the first sentence in 1, but the second sentence and all
of 2 are news to me. 3 is counter to my experience: I store my malts
either in vacuum-sealed 6-mil PolyEthylene bags or HDPE buckets
with gasketted lids. I've found that 3-year-old malt, stored at cellar
(55 to 65F) temperatures will convert wonderfully and give high yields.
I have not noticed any apparent loss of enzymatic power. I rarely, if
ever, use high-enzyme malts -- most of the time I brew with M&F Pale
and Mild malts and DWC or Ireks Munich. Occasionally, I'll use DWC Pils
and Pale Ale, Ireks Pils, and DWC or Ireks Wheat. The only high-enzyme
malt I've ever used is Schreier 2-row brewer's malt, which is not extremely
high in diastatic power, but quite a bit higher than the first four I
mentioned.
DRB-OK, I think we agree on #3. I was specifically thinking about six-row
which I bought in large quantities and was unable to use at my normal rate due
to
sudden onset of illness this past two years. When I perked back up, it was
still OK and converted itself and adjuncts as high as 30% ( that's all I
tried).
That's exactly why I said it will take several years. If you remember the
context was one in which HBDers were discussing things like freezing the
malt to preserve it. My point was it is not necessary to go to great lengths,
just keep it cool and dry and in a closed container. Lower enzyme malts could
have a problem which people report as losing enzymic power in books I have
read.
Like you , I don't have that experience of significant loss of enzymic power.
AlK - How's that? Sorry for flying off the handle... I'm really passionate
about brewing!
DRB - Great! So am I passionate about brewing as are most of us here. In the
future let's focus on the brewing details, assume the writer has some knowledge
and is not intentionally misleading anyone and that we can all make mistakes
and
say things that aren't exactly right or can be misread.These should be pointed
out and corrected, but in a manner which shows respect for the writer of the
incorrect material. Without peer review prior to submission, even the most
careful submission can come up a little screwed up. Properly labeled,
speculation should be a part of this forum and we all should put in our $0.02 (
or A$0.03)
worth as a comment without criticizing the writer, just the submission. There
is
a big difference.
There is a need for information transmission, envelope edge pushing
speculation and for hard questions and corrections, but let's have fun doing
it.
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202@compuserve.com
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End of Homebrew Digest #2266
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