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HOMEBREW Digest #2236
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/10/17 PDT
Homebrew Digest Friday, 18 October 1996 Number 2236
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Reinheitsgebot/IPAs/HSA/amylase life speculation/pils tannins/O2 (korz@xnet.com)
RE: Plastic Primaries (Bill Ridgely 301-827-1391 FAX 301-827-3053)
Re: O2 in wort (hollen@vigra.com)
Garden Hose for Blow Off Tube ((Steve Adams))
Re: Bigger breweries and RIMS (hollen@vigra.com)
Real Beer Page EMAIL (Carl Hattenburg)
Hops Summary.... ((Aesoph, Michael))
Re: Kombucha "mushroom" (Charles Capwell)
Wyeast 1084/RIMS Well/yadda ("Gregory, Guy J.")
reddog and other woes ((beerdogs))
re: starch/hydrometer/iodine questions (Dane Mosher)
Tea beer revisited. ((Shawn Scolack))
EasyMasher discussion (Alex Santic)
Calcium and Mash pH/ WY1056 (Steve Alexander)
Fermenting in plastic ("Dave Draper")
Contract vs Micro - Better Sanitation? (michael j dix)
re: KJ's Killer Chiller/ James Spence demise ((Bill Giffin))
How Much to Pitch? (Bill Walker")
need pumpkin ale advice (<Ron_Barbercheck@MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>)
Dateline (Steve Alexander)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: korz@xnet.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:25:11 -0500
Subject: Reinheitsgebot/IPAs/HSA/amylase life speculation/pils tannins/O2
In an effort to minimize my posting, I'm waiting (in most cases) for
a couple of days to post so that I don't just repeat what others have
responded. Here's a couple of posts for which I didn't see responses
and one on which I can't contain myself:
I've read that while the German breweries cannot use acids directly, they
can add salts that naturally occur in water (such as gypsum or calcium
chloride) and still be within Reinheitsgebot (note spelling).
***
Jim writes:
>Classic, historical IPAs should be crafted in the veins of Brooklyns
>IPA. Light in color and based on UK hops. OG 16P, FG 3P or less,
>IBUs 55-70, good aroma presence.
I'd like to add that I have read that the historical IPAs all had sugar
added in significant amounts to boost alcohol without the beer having a
heavy body (this fits in perfectly with Jim's "FG 3P or less"). I have been
reading a lot about IPAs in the last month or two and so I don't recall
in which book or article I read this. I believe it was an unlikely
place, something like Noonan's "Scotch Ale" (I believe he was talking about
how the brewers in Scotland started brewing IPAs and therefore adopting
some of the IPA-production methods (like adding sugar) because of the
popularity of the style throughout England and Scotland).
***
Dave writes:
>Although our patron saint CP recommends adding hot wort to cold water in a
>carboy, don't do it. The transfer will mix in oxygen likely and you will get
>hot side aeration - HSA. The cold water will have oxygen in it and you will
get
>some HSA even if you siphon. Your method of transferring the hot wort to a
>bucket before cooling is also a chief candidate for HSA.
While I agree that Charlie's method of pouring hot wort through a sieve will
aerate it and result in the problems of HSA. However, carefully, smoothly
pouring hot wort into a plastic fermenter (yes, inferior to glass, but
easier to deal with for beginners) that contains cold water will *not*
cause HSA problems.
For the wort to react with the oxygen in the water, they would have to mix.
When you mix the hot wort with the cold water, the temperature drops so
your wort is no longer hot: no HSA. I agree however, that if you use a
carboy, the inevitable splashing will cause HSA problems and there you
should cool the wort before pouring through the funnel.
***
Dave writes:
>What do you call "good" efficiency ( I routinely get in the 90s) and what was
>your mash temperature
>( I routinely operate at the high end)? British malts, especially those low in
>enzymes, suffer the most from a low calcium content and high mash temperature
>and may give poor efficiency and a more fermentable wort than expected because
>the alpha amylase is less stable than in a higher calcium environment. Ergo,
>efficiency suffers if the alpha amylase disappears before the starch is
>completely converted to soluble carbohydrates . The beta amylase is long gone
>by
>this time, of course, and because the remaining starch is not converted (
lower
>than expected OG) by the alpha amylase to predominantly (80/20)
non-fermentable
>dextrins, the FG is lower than expected at the high end of the
saccharification
>range.
I would like to simply point out that this is all *speculation* on Dave's
part and none of this is from any textbook or experimental data. While
Dave does use a rest at the high end of the saccarification range, he
also (from his previous posts) uses a rest around 140F which will result
in a non-negligible amount of beta amylase activity and lower FG than a
single infusion done at 158F.
Dave, if you would like to send me references for this assertion, I would
be happy to read them and post a retraction. However, in all my reading of
DeClerck, Malting and Brewing Science, Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing
(Hough), The Practical Brewer (MBAA), Noonan, Miller and even Papazian, I
have not seen anything like what you propose. My water is relatively low
in calcium (37ppm) and I use Pale Ale malts from Britain more than 70% of
the time and have never had problems with slow conversions or low efficiency
(never any worse than 85%). If you want to argue this point, let's take
if off-line right away so we don't clog the HBD with half-baked ideas.
Dave writes:
>Most true Pilzens use a lager malt low in husk tannins...
Source??? More speculation, Dave... 2-row is lower in tannin by weight
than 6-row, but to the best of my knowledge, the tannin content of all 2-row
malts is (for all practical purposes) the same.
You are spiraling out of control (as I've done in the past). Get a grip
and start posting only what you know for sure.
***
Bill writes:
>Aerate with a simple and easy to clean 4" bit of 3/8" copper tubing with
>a few holes drilled in it. Works great.
AJ did a test on this and found that it adds very little dissolved oxygen.
Dennis Davison's article in BT confirmed this. Some yeasts can do well
with small amounts of O2, others (like the Ringwood yeast) need quite a
bit more (like 5 times what you get from the copper tube with holes in it
aerator).
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korzonas@lucent.com
korz.pubs.ih.lucent.com
korz@xnet.com
------------------------------
From: Bill Ridgely 301-827-1391 FAX 301-827-3053 <RIDGELY@A1.CBER.FDA.GOV>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:40:00 EST
Subject: RE: Plastic Primaries
Just a data point regarding the ongoing debate on plastic buckets
vs glass carboys for primary fermentation -
I've been brewing regularly since 1979. Soon after I started, I
purchased two food-grade 8-gal plastic buckets to use as primary
fermenters (replacing the K-Mart plastic trashcan I originally
fermented in).
I am still using those buckets (among others) for my primaries.
In nearly 17 years of brewing, I have never experienced a
bacterial infection that I could attribute to those buckets.
I soak my buckets overnight in 2 oz of bleach solution both
before and after every fermentation, then rinse with hot water
before transferring wort from the kettle. I never worry about
blowoff or airborne contamination, and I keep lids on loosely. I
usually crop yeast (when brewing ales) at least once during my
primaries, and I never leave fermenting beer in the buckets for
more than 6 days before racking to carboys.
After observing successful open primary fermentations in many
breweries (particularly in the UK) over the years, I really don't
see a need to change my practices. Plastic buckets are both easy
to use and easy to clean and sanitize. Of course, YMMV.
Bill Ridgely
Alexandria, VA
------------------------------
From: hollen@vigra.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 12:58:22 PDT
Subject: Re: O2 in wort
>> Bill Giffin writes:
BG> Too much O2 is bad for the yeast. "Finally it should be
BG> emphasized that oxygenation must be restricted, otherwise
BG> fermentation is too vigorous, yeast growth excessive, and beer
BG> quality suffers." From M&BS 2nd edition.
Can't disagree, but George Fix did experiments which he says will be
coming out in his next book which state that at STP, you cannot
overoxygenate. While *immediately* after oxygenation, you may get a
DO reading which is "too high" within a couple of minutes, it declines
to the "equilibrium" of DO in STP liquid, which is beneath the value
considered to be "too much". I have no figures for all of this, since
I obtained the information from George in a personal conversation at a
brew festival where he was speaking.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
------------------------------
From: paa3765@dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 15:37:32 edt
Subject: Garden Hose for Blow Off Tube
Hey folks:
The other day I brewed at my brewing partner's house -- ten gallons. I threw
the batch in a ten gallon coke can and drove home. I still had most of the
domed part inside empty (a little room). Instead of transferring to fermenters
, I decided to ferment right in the can by hooking up blow off tubes to posts
that hold the valves. I like to live dangerously brewing. To make a long
story, I used a healthy quantity of WYEAST 1272 -- American Ale II -- and got a
vigorous fermentation. Because I had never used this can before, I had to make
do with 5/8" OD tube hollowed out inside with a pen knife on one side; on the
other side, I used a 6' length of unused garden hose which fit perfectly.
Well, ya know, I sanitized the hoses real good and all, and figured that using
the garden hose as a blow off tube would be fine because all the material would
be moving out of the can through the hose.
As long as there was no suck-back, I should be fine, right? Or is my beautiful
ale going to taste like a drink from the hose on a hot summer day? Gak!!
Yeah, yeah, I know the wisdom about going food grade with everything, but
sometimes I just can't help myself. Oh, yeah, any others out there with WY
1272 experience, opinions?
Steve Adams
------------------------------
From: hollen@vigra.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 13:06:18 PDT
Subject: Re: Bigger breweries and RIMS
>> Braam Greyling writes:
BG> Hi there,
BG> I have general question about bigger breweries and RIMS or other
BG> mashing styles.
BG> Is it just the homebrewers that uses RIMS ? Does bigger breweries use
BG> it as well ? If they are not using it what do they use ? Decoction
BG> only ?What is the biggest brewery that you know that use RIMS or
BG> infusion mashing ?
I found one brewery in San Francisco that uses a RIMS system and it
was commercially available, so there must be more. The problem is
heating without scorching when you scale up that much. I don't know
what kind of heat they used, but I would assume that the best would be
steam with a very good external heat exchanger.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen@vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
------------------------------
From: Carl Hattenburg <CHattenburg@Perstorp-us.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:20:16 -0400
Subject: Real Beer Page EMAIL
The following taken from the Real Beer Page newsletter:
- ----------------------------
A REAL BEER STORY
Two years ago this brewer rode out to the GABF 400 miles on his
motorcycle. He's paid out of his own pocket to enter his beers into
competitions, because the owners of the brewpub don't value or
understand the brewing aspect of the business. When Rob Moline of
Manhattan, Kansas' Little Apple Brewing Company called back to the
restaurant to inform them that he won a Gold Medal for best
barleywine in the U.S., he was told, "That's Groovey." Well, we love
this guy, his beer and his triumph against-all-odds attitude, so we've
created a little page for you to get to know him a little better. Help
us
congratulate Rob Moline by surfing to:
http://realbeer.com/travels/lilapple
- ----------------------------
ANOTHER REAL BEER STORY
A-B set up a beautifully painted display across the street from GABF
venue, Currigan Hall, using two Semi's that housed "Beer School." The
road show apparently had been in San Francisco the week before.
The school was intended to educate consumers about the brew
process and open the conversation to A-B's new line of specialty
products. The metaphors of preaching to the choir and grinding
hamburgers before vegetarians may both explain some of the cold
response A-B got from the crowds attending the GABF. As thousands
of attendees waited for the doors to open for the first night of
tastings, an A-B pitchperson tried to recruit people to come over to
their school. The crowd booed loudly. Pointing a guy out in the
crowd, the pitchperson persisted, inviting him over. "I wouldn't drink
your beer if you paid me," he said, which met cheers from the crowd.
A-B may have to attend some schooling about the craft-beer
audience.
- ----------------------------
To subscribe, send an email message to rbp-request@realbeer.com -- in
the
BODY of the message type:
subscribe
end
------------------------------
From: aesoph@ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 17 Oct 96 16:34:21 EDT
Subject: Hops Summary....
Dear Collective:
Here is the summary of the hop rhizome vendors that I received. The
only time to get them is March - April and you should place orders in
February or so to make sure you get some. Thanks for your responses. My
uncle is going to provid me some from his own plant so I can nurture them
over the winter under a grow-lite!!!!!!
Semplex of USA in MN
Phone # 1 612 522 0500
Fax # 1 612 522 0579
The Brew Club
Santa Cruz, CA
1-800-995-2739
Great Fermentations of Marin
San Rafael, CA
1-800-570-BEER
The Cellar Homebrew
Seattle, WA
1-800-342-1871
South Bay Homebrew Supply
Torrance, CA
1-800-608-BREW
Freshops,
Philomath, Oregon
(800) 460-6925
Henry Field's
Seed & Nursery Co.
415 North Burnett
Shenandoah, Iowa 51602
Phone: 605-665-4491
Fax: 605-665-2601
Gurney's
Seed & Nursery Co.
110 Capital Street
Yankton, South Dakota 57079
Phone: 605-665-1671
Fax: 605-665-9718
Hopunion USA, Inc.
Hops Growing and Processing
Yakima, WA
(509) 457-3200
==================================================
Michael D. Aesoph Associate Engineer
==================================================
------------------------------
From: Charles Capwell <chas@A119007.sat1.as.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:25:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Kombucha "mushroom"
> >From: ken@axis.jeack.com.au (Ken Coppleman)
> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:33:33 +1000
> Subject: Kombucha tea to beer?
>
<SNIP!>
> I firstly removed the Kombucha culture & figured I should try to kill the
> yeasts within the brew, so I then heated the whole lot to 50 degrees celcius
> (around 115-120 farenheit?) hoping this would kill the Kombucha yeasts. I
> then figured that the brew would need extra nutrients, as the Kombucha
> fermentation would have used most of the original sugars - so I added about
> 2 kg of white cane sugar. I then added the started beer yeast, fitted an
> air lock & crossed my fingers.
>
Okay, my father-in-law-to-be is a Kombucha nut, so I can speak with at
least some modicum of knowledge on the subject, although there are
probably others on this list that know more.
Anyway, I digress. First, that "mushroom" is more than just yeast. It is
"matrix" of yeast AND BACTERIA. I think it is supposed to be some sort of
symbiotic relationship that, from what I've heard, will break down if other
bacteria or yeast are present. I don't know if your 50d C boil would have
killed the bacteria off. Take a sample, see how it tastes. Frankly, I think
you're likely to wind up with something noxious, but that's a personal
opinion.
> Since then the brew *is* fermenting, but movement of the air bubble in the
> lock is extremely slow (I also don't know whether it is the beer yeast, or
> possible Kombucha yeasts at work).
>
> Can anyone advise me whether I might be able to end up with a palatable beer
> or wine, whether I need to adjust or add any ingredients, or whether I
> should cut my losses & just throw the whole lot away. I would like to
> persevere, because the original Kombucha brew was quite tasty & sharp, I
> could see it making a nice sparkling cider type of drink.
>
My opinion would be to chuck it, but if you _really_ want to be persistent
I'd say boil the whole batch again, letting it stay at 100d C for at least
15 mins to attempt to be sure to kill all those bugs that the kombucha
'shroom might have left behind. Also clean and sanitize your fermenter as
much as humanly possible, again to kill any stray microscopic beasties.
Then, maybe add a little more sugar and pitch something like Prisse de
Mousse or any other champagne yeast. The kombucha "tea" resembles a wine or
mead more than it does beer.
> - --Ken
>
>
> /* ---------------- Ken Coppleman - MELBOURNE ----------------- */
> /* ------------- Internet: ken@axis.jeack.com.au -------------- */
> /* ------------------------------------------------------------ */
>
- -Chas (chas@crl.com)
When I heated my home with oil, I used an average of 800 gallons a
year. I have found that I can keep comfortably warm for an entire
winter with slightly over half that quantity of beer.
-- Dave Barry, "Postpetroleum Guzzler"
------------------------------
From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461@ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 14:06:00 PDT
Subject: Wyeast 1084/RIMS Well/yadda
John Penn asks:
"In HBD 2233 I asked for advice on a Bitter Chocolate Stout recipe and I
left off the yeast. I was going to use Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast which
I have never used. Any comments on this one."
Yeah....it is the yeast I use in my personal award-winning Nickerdog
Memorial Porter...which has been accused of being a stout on more than one
occasion. It's great....ferments well, though not so much with enthusiasm
as with tenacity, thus, you may want to secondary 10 days to 2 weeks. Adds
a proper amount of flavor, though often difficult to distinguish with high
flavored big beers. Seems alcohol tolerant. I also like the Wyeast Swedish
Porter yeast.
__
David Hill, of Australia (crediting the original design concept of Les
Howard of South
Oakleigh, Melbourne Australia) has now written twice about an intriguing
RIMS recirculation system. Basically, he has a well to transmit wort from
below his false bottom back up to the grain. As a student of RIMS, but not
a practitioner, this seems to eliminate a great deal of the complexity and
cost from other RIMS designs. I like the lack of plumbing and chambers and
magnetic drive pumps and stuff. It also seems to be better able to adapt to
external gas heating sources. I wonder if this could be adapted to even
avoid using a pump, sort of like a coffee percolator. (probably would
require too much heat....in-situ decoction?....nah)
How do you RIMS practitioners feel about this crafty australian design? I
think I'm gonna build one!
By the way, for you Aussies out there..".yadda yadda yadda" is New Yorker
equivalent to 1) blah..blah...blah, or 2) any other waste of bandwidth (like
this one).
G'day
Guy Gregory
GuyG4@aol.com
Lightning Ck. Home Brewing
------------------------------
From: beerdogs@cyclops.dcache.net (beerdogs)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:10:40 -0500
Subject: reddog and other woes
1)torbjorn bull-njaa writes:
>The biggest disappointments are the heavily hyped introduction of the Red
>Dog brand in late 1994 and the would-be flagship Miller in February this
>year. After some brief excitement Red Dog, which was positioned as a
>quasi-microbrew, is dropping like a stone. The cure for Miller seems to be a
>huge new campaign for Millers Lite.
anyone who is curious can check out the BREWELT mag at breWorld.com for
statistics on 1995 market share changes in the US. no micros, just the big
boys and how there bottom line is creeping up on them.
2) on the HSA thread, i was taught to mash in my brewpot until time to
lauter and then dump it into my cooler mashtun. since i cannot add heat to
the cooler this seemed about right. what is HSA and how do i know if it is
a problem. also can it be avoided in my situation? (ie. is there some way
i can transfer to lauter other than just pouring?) anyone else have a
similar setup? what do you do?
3) back to the rye tread for a minute, rye, i beleive was aleged to have
the same precusors to that clove-like character we all know. am i correct
in this? also, does rye have the same head retentive properties as wheat?
my experience leads me to beleive it does not, however, i may not have used
a sufficient quantity.
4) i still dont know what RIMS stands for. please, help!
thanks a lot you all,
prost, nozdrovia, salud and
Cheers,
Rod
*** "Come on, I'll buy you a beer, Jim." "Oh, it's going to take more
than a beer to get rid of this mess. This is a job for a couple of
sixpacks." ***
-Jim Inatowski, TAXI
------------------------------
From: Dane Mosher <dmosher@xroadstx.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:56:22 -0500
Subject: re: starch/hydrometer/iodine questions
Anton Schoenbacher just did his first all-grain (yea!) and asks what
effect unconverted starch has on a hydrometer reading.
In my experience, unconverted starch doesn't make it to my hydrometer
readings--it's left behind in the grain. In fact, extremely low gravity
readings are a sign to me that sacchirification didn't finish, either
due to a bad crush or too short a mash.
Anton also asked about iodine tests and whether the black color is
subtle.
In my experience, it's not subtle at all. The iodine should turn black
immediately upon hitting the mash sample. If you let it swirl around
for a while, it will eventually become impossible to tell what color it
is, so you should go with the immediate reaction.
Dane Mosher
Big Spring, Texas
------------------------------
From: Shawn.Scolack@tsr.gcastle.com (Shawn Scolack)
Date:
Subject: Tea beer revisited.
Reply-To: Shawn.Scolack@tsr.gcastle.com
Greetings,
Michael Caprara <mcaprara@awwarf.com> wrote:
>I have used different Celestial Seasons (no affiliations, blah, blah) in
I ended up using Twinings tea bags, they worked quite well also.
>awesome!) I used a whole box of tea bags and steeped them in the
>wort for about 10 minutes after the boil.
I used 10 bags, I steeped them in boiling water in a seperate kettle and
added it to the wort before cooling it. I figured 10 was a good place to
start, since I wasn't sure if I'd like it. But it smells great so...
>About the honey. What the hell, throw it in there. Just don't do too much
I threw in the honey. 500g to be exact. I didn't know if that was too much
or too little. Guess I'll find out soon enough. Anyways, the fermentaion was
very vigourous the first day or too. Something I wasn't expecting. I went
to check on my brew the next day and the airlock was overflowing with foam. :(
My brown ale's fermentation was very quiet. So was the violent fermention a
result of the honey or tea?
Anyways, thanks to Michael Caprara for his advice...
Shawn.Scolack@tsr.gcastle.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: The Staff Room BBS, 519-979-4208, FIDO: 1:246/12
Over 450Meg of quality educational shareware for the taking!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
[Created by the Internet Connection 4.0/Registered 10-17-96 16:30:25]
------------------------------
From: Alex Santic <alex@brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:07:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: EasyMasher discussion
Chiming in on Craig's questions and Al's responses...
As A.K. pointed out, heat loss can be a problem using the EasyMasher with
a typical brew kettle. I've done one batch with it so far and was pleased
with how well it went, but maintaining a given temperature as well as
keeping it even throughout the mash was difficult. I used almost-boiling
water for the sparge and was never in danger of overheating the mash. I
probably will use a more typical sparge water temperature once I come up
with a solution for insulating the kettle.
Another potential heat-loss problem occurred to me as I was working. It
seems plausible that it would be difficult to get a dextrinous wort, or at
least strike an intended balance, with a lot of cool areas in the mash.
The remaining beta-amylase might make short work of the dextrins being
created in the hotter parts of the mash.
Finally, the only solution to heat loss is to add heat, and when you do
that you have to stir pretty well to get it distributed evenly. All the
stirring actually aggravates the heat loss and I'm afraid it results in a
good deal of aeration as well.
Insulating the kettle may be a very important issue with the Easymasher,
otherwise it's a very useful device.
Alex Santic
NYC
------------------------------
From: Steve Alexander <stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:02:03 -0400
Subject: Calcium and Mash pH/ WY1056
I've been catching up on the Dave Burley, Bill Griffon discussion and
have to expand on a point or two ...
Calcium is involved in several different ways. Calcium is necessary
and is made inaccessible by the action of phytase in the classical
acid rest. This acid rest is only relevent to 'lager malts', and
british pale ale malt has no appreciable phytase. Another form of
acid rest is an extended rest for the development of lactic acid
bacterial byproduct - this sort or rest requires many hours to several
days. The mash acidifying effect of gypsum and several other salts
is well known.
Why is pH important ? As David Burley points out various amylolytic
enzymes are more active and more stable at an 'optimum' pH in the
neighborhood of 5.3 - however the activity drop off of these enzymes
with pH is really pretty slow. The 50% points are something like
(from memory) pH 4.0 and pH 8.0 !!! To further complicate matters the
activity of the amyases, particularly alpha-amyalse is extended to
higher pH as the calcium level is increased. There are a lot of
really good reasons to mash between pH 5.1 and 5.5 (break formation,
yield, amino acid reactions, polyphenol extraction, ...), but loss of
amylase activity, especially in a wort w/ 50 to 100 ppm of Ca is
probably only of secondary concern. You could probably effectively
saccharify a mash at pH 8 !!
So what about calcium ? Things get real messy here. If carbonates
remain in the mash - then it possible to lose some calcium as calcium
carbonate - which may be why the large amounts of Ca are often
suggested. Calcium has only a minor effect on beta-amylase. Calcium
has a major effect on alpha-amylase stability and activity. Stability
- - alpha-amyase(AA) is sometimes classified as an metalo-enzyme, since
it is irreversible denatured by removal of the calcium. It appears
that one molecule of Ca per AA molecule is required. Also there are
at least two identified iso-enzymes of AA that have vastly different
iso-electric potentials - and thus binding to the Calcium ions. These
two denature at different pH values. Activity - I've seen a study of
AA activity that shows a nearly linear relationship of AA activity w/
respect to Ca ion concentration from about 1ppm to 100ppm. Whether
this hold true in a real-world wort or whether other wort ions provide
the same effect isn't at all clear. One thing that would be
immediately useful to know is how much calcium from the malt is
available in the wort - clearly some - but how much is a mystery to
me.
How much calcium is necessary in the real world ? Clearly Plzen water
with it's low calcium (5-10ppm Ca I believe) and comparably low
carbonate level is used successfully used in brewing. However the
activity and temperature stability of AA may be compromised.
Extensive loss of AA might be expected to hurt yeild more that
fermentability. Note that some Plzen mash schedules are rigourous
and extended decoction mashs allowing a lot of time for the AA to act.
As David Burley pointed out - the loss of enzyme activity and
stability can be made up to some extent by choosing malt with a high
diastatic power - paricularly more alpha-amylase.
Bill Giffin says:
>I have taken British malt and acidified it with lactic acid and managed
>to get good efficiency from this malt with only about 7 ppm of calcium.
Note that british pale-ale malts do have lower diastatic power
compared with lager malt, however most of the difference is in the
beta amylase.
- --
BTW - just read the Brewing Techniques article on APAs by David
Brockington last night and was amused to read his comments on the use
of Chico yeast (wy1056). His opinion and mine coincide.
Steve Alexander
------------------------------
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:43:14 +10
Subject: Fermenting in plastic
Dear Friends,
In #2234, Al K. wrote, in response to the suggestion to use plastic
fermenters:
"Baloney! Plastic scratches and is therefore more difficult to
sanitize than glass. Sure the carboys can get dirty and can harbour
wild yeast and bacteria, but a one week soak in bleach water (1
tablespoon per gallon) and a 1 minute scrub with a carboy brush takes
off all the crud. You are the first person I've ever heard say that
plastic is easier to deal with than glass. Glass is fragile and costs
more, but it is far easier to sanitize reliably than a plastic
fermenter. Don't tell me you lager in plastic too? Eight weeks in a
plastic fermenter is sure to allow enough oxygen in to oxidise the
alcohols to aldehydes. Yuck! Ever taste air-pumped megabrew beer the
morning after? THAT'S aldehydes. To me they smell a little like
"Playdoh." "
No Al, he is not the first person you have heard say this because I
have posted that very thought myself right here in the digest, more
than once, and I know *I* was not the first.
Plastic is no harder to sanitize reliably-- it is only if there are
scratches present that it is an issue. Scratches in a plastic
fermenter are so laughably easy to prevent that it scarcely bears
mentioning. What do you put in a plastic fermenter besides liquid?
Last time I checked there were no sharp surfaces in liquid. Don't
use it to carry the shards of your dropped and broken glass carboy
and it won't scratch. An overnight soak with bleach solution (not
even a week is needed) removes everything from the surface-- it
rinses clean as a whistle without even the need for a scrub-- the
same is true of glass of course.
Yes, I lager in plastic. Here in Oz where the homebrew "industry" is
far less well developed than it is in the US, plastic fermentors are
far easier to come by than are glass ones. Our club has in its ranks
some very fine brewers, a few of whom have moved up into commercial
brewing. Their beers fermented in plastic range right across the
style range from lagers to strong ales to Belgian styles, the works.
We have no particular problem with aldehydes. We are talking about
hundreds of batches as a basis for this claim, just in the group I
know personally.
No one will question that plastic is more permeable to oxygen than
is glass. The real question is: does it matter? Is it enough to
affect the beer's flavor? Al, you have posted before that your
experience with aldehydes appearing in a beer fermented in plastic
amounts to one (1) batch-- please advise if I am mistaken. If you
have data to back up the comment "Eight weeks in a plastic fermenter
is sure to allow enough oxygen in to oxidise the alcohols to
aldehydes" I would like to see them.
Plastic gets this knee-jerk, out of hand dismissal all the time and I
strongly believe it is unwarranted. The risk of bodily harm so far
outweighs the tiny probability of scratching the plastic that it
seems silly to risk it-- like driving without a seatbelt. When I
return to the States next year I will gladly keep using plastic until
and unless it can be demonstrated to me that there is a *measurable*
and *noticeable* influence on the taste of beer brewed in that way.
Yours in friendly disagreement,
Dave in Sydney
"I am speaking from a materials perspective..." ---John Palmer
- ---
***************************************************************************
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia
ddraper@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au
...I'm not from here, I just live here...
------------------------------
From: michael j dix <mdix@dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 15:46:12 PDT
Subject: Contract vs Micro - Better Sanitation?
It used to be said that all microbrewed beer was infected, the
difference was only in degree. In fact, I heard Dr. Michael Lewis
say that in Davis, several years ago. In contrast, Dr. Lewis
went on to say, the level of sanitation at a large commercial brewery,
such as the AB brewery in nearby Fairfield, was far greater than in
any operating room. (So much so, that were he to need open-heart
surgery, he would request it done at Anheuser-Busch.)
So, I am wondering if this is still true. (not counting mega-micros
such as Sierra Nevada.) If it is, this is a point in favor
of contract brewing. When I buy beer, I prefer it to be uninfected.
Mike Dix
------------------------------
From: bill-giffin@juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:15:02 cst
Subject: re: KJ's Killer Chiller/ James Spence demise
Good evening,
I use a single spiral immersion chiller made of about 35' of 1/4" copper
and the convection is adequate with that.
It saddens me to hear of the firing of James Spence from the AHA.
Although I didn't always agree with James, I found him to be helpful,
concerned about homebrewing issues as well as being loyal to the AHA
line. I wish James the best for his future. James may the Lord always
hold you in the hollow of his hand and I hope that you prosper.
Sadly enough I do not hold the president of the AHA in such high regard.
Perhaps the wrong person was FIRED!
Bill
Richmond, Maine
------------------------------
From: "bwalker@holli.com Bill Walker" <bwalker@holli.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:53:59 -0500
Subject: How Much to Pitch?
=09
Hello, I am fairly new to homebrewing. I have been reading the HBD now =
for about 2 Months. I am starting my 3rd batch of brew.
The first being a brown ale that I used Edme dry ale yeast (10g =
aprox.). It had a real fast fermentation (<48 hours @ about 72-74 =
degrees), is now almost 2 weeks into the bottles. (Tastes pretty good I =
opened up one after about 10 days)
My second batch I made a brew based on Rocky Raccoons Crystal Honey =
Lager in The NCJOHB using Yeast Lab's Australian Ale dry Yeast(14 g) , =
(good fermentation over 3 days at 72-74 degrees), which is now almost 2 =
weeks into secondary fermentation.
The question I have is, I am planning on making the Dunkel recipe from =
NCJOHB, and all I have is two 5 gram packets of both Danstar London and =
Nottingham dry ale yeast, which one should I use?, and should I pitch =
one or both?
Any direct responses would be appreciated
------------------------------
From: <Ron_Barbercheck@MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Oct 96 20:09:16 EDT
Subject: need pumpkin ale advice
I went to the farmers market today and picked up a 2 lb. pie pumpkin.
I plan to brew a pumpkin ale...possibly a wheat ale and I'd like to
hear what you HBD'er think.
If I decide to do a mash it'd be 65% wheat malt and 35% barley malt
along with the pumpkin. I was also thinking about sprouting the
seeds, "kilning" them in the oven and throwing them in the mash too.
Since it would be a wheat beer I would wanna go light on the spices (I
will eat my pumpkin pie not drink it) such as coriander, clove or
allspice, ginger and maybe nutmeg or cinnamon. Oh, and Saaz hops.
I was also thinking about maybe a mash extract or even a complete
extract (northwestern wheat extract 65wheat, 35barley). I would use
Wyeast Belgian Wit. If I go all extract how do I prepare my adjunct?
Should I mash it with Alpha Amylase? Should I try to sparge it with a
load of rice hulls mixed in?
If you are willing to take the time to type in my address I will take
direct messages...otherwise post your *beer making advice* in the
digest.
To PU drinkers, Try Kozel (Czech Rep.) if you can get some.
To those heading to Cancun I have only two words; LEON Negra.
------------------------------
From: Steve Alexander <stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:10:51 -0400
Subject: Dateline
On the dateline/megabrewer thread, Ed Steinkamp says ...
>Perhaps some Government regulation is in order.
>... If somebody wants to sell an IPA, it
>should not be a budmillercoors with brown food coloring in it.
And if someone wants to sell a lager with a name like 'Budweiser' it
should taste like the Czech Pils and not like the A-B product - right?
I guess I don't agree in either case. As long as there is no
attempt to deceive or hide dangerous ingredient information who cares
what the label says. If there is an attempt to deceive for profit,
it's called fraud and it already is a crime.
> Of course the law would have to be
> written so that it would not stifle creativity.
Can't be done. All laws stifle creativity - it's an inherent part of
the restriction involved. Consider the Reinheitsbgebot(sp?) law was
originally an attempt to assure purity, but as methods progressed the
laws restriction prevented the use of many practical developments,
some of which require some silly workarounds. Why use a
lacto-fermentation to acidify when a lactic acid addition gets the
same result. Why make ridiculously undermodified 'malt' instead of
using raw barley ? Creative energies, money, time effort had to go
into overcoming the 'silly' parts of the restriction instead of making
better beer (fortunately German brewers were persistant). The problem
with laws are that they ultimately mandate a means instead of an end
and so stifle creativity.
>I'm not a fan of big government, but I also don't like lousy beer.
The Dateline article didn't address 'lousy beer'. The Dateline issue
had to do with the use of phrases like 'handcrafted' and labels that
don't indicate contract brewing relationships. Neither of these
things makes a beer good or bad. Is SNPA 'handcrafted' ? At their
volumes I doubt the phrase applies - but a great ale. Aren't (Wicked)
Pete Slosbergs' products still contract brewed - I think many of them
are wonderful.
>I really don't like buying something that looks like a mirco-beer
>with a fancy label which promises a craft beer, but actually turn
>out to be budmillercoors crap.
Microbrewing doesn't give any insurance against 'lousy beer'. Instead
why don't you just buy beer based on taste instead of on what the
label looks like and avoid this problem. Laws can't mandate good
flavor.
In the fine wine business labelling and production restriction are
severe in some juristictions. So the production is 'correct' and the
labels are complete and accurate, but these things have nothing to do
with quality. Tasting the wine or reading a review are the only means
of getting a sense of the flavor. If you don't have time to taste
beers yourself, subscribe to 'The Malt Advocate' or one of the other
publications with beer reviews, check out Michael Jackson's books, ask
friends, post to HBD. As for government intervention & more laws - no
thanks, I already have plenty of each.
only MY opinion of course,
Steve Alexander
------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2236
****************************
