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HOMEBREW Digest #2170
This file received at Hops.Stanford.EDU 1996/09/02 PDT
Homebrew Digest Monday, 2 September 1996 Number 2170
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Dehydrators for drying hops (orion@mdc.net)
240 volt heaters (orion@mdc.net)
Octoberfest (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
Sorghum (Pierre Jelenc)
Yeast Starters (Christ Lutheran School)
IM, ALL CAPS, Secondary ("David R. Burley")
Acronymn overload (The Holders)
Electrical safety 101 ("Robert L. Schroeder")
[none] (rq@lysator.liu.se)
Forced sparging (rq@lysator.liu.se)
Ale secondary fermentation/conditioning (Alex Santic)
Recipe Books (SHANE SAYLOR)
Apple Cider Beer (SRAILMAN@aol.com)
ALL GRAIN BREW, VIA STEAM JACKETED KETTLE EQUIPMENT (Dave)
Food dehydrators for hops (emccormi)
Bleach (emccormi)
Boiling over (emccormi)
Late harvest hops (emccormi)
strange ginger taste... (m.bryson2@genie.com)
Whole hop amounts (PVanslyke@aol.com)
Volume,Greece,Water,Cleaning Draft Tower ((A. J. deLange))
RO Water/Phosphoric Acid/Buffering Capacity ((A. J. deLange))
Sorghum Challenge-The winners are.. (Michel Vandenplas)
Selzer/Reinheitsgebot ((A. J. deLange))
AHA forms ("Bryan L. Gros")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: orion@mdc.net
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:22:25 -0400
Subject: Dehydrators for drying hops
Nathan Kanous said:
>Greetings to the collective! Who out there has experience using a home food
>dehydrator for drying hops? How well does it work? Etc. etc. etc. Any info
>will be helpful. TIA. Private e-mail just fine.
Nathan,
I am using a mid range (price) dehydrator for drying hops, and it works
fine! Be careful to pich stems from the cones, and spread them out on the
drying racks. I actually spread them kind of thick, and this is OK, since
they are very leafy anyway. I have used a few different settings to do this,
including meat (approx 160 degrees) which may have been a bit high for this
process. It certainly made the drying process fast! In any event, the
current setting I am using is herbs and veggies (about 130 degrees), and it
takes only about 2-3 hours to get the cones crispy enough that they crumble
easily. I put them into a zip lock bag, squeeze the air out as much as
possible, and them crumble the cones manually. I then place this deflated
bag inside another, and also release as much air as I can. Works fine in the
freezer for a while this way. This is my first year growing, and have about
5 oz in storage. Can't wait til next year!
OD
Orville Deutchman
Brewer of Down Under Ale!
Hobby Brewing at its Finest!
I'm relaxing, and having a homebrew!
orion@mdc.net
------------------------------
From: orion@mdc.net
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:34:19 -0400
Subject: 240 volt heaters
Randy in Modesto said:
>My point was that the original poster/authority/salesman advocated
>wiring the element directly to the panel!!!!! Conveniently bypassing
>the circuit protection and the conceivably the main. Which would
>rely on the transformer protection which I agree is pretty scary. Not a good
>practice.
Randy, I certainly did not mean to imply that someone should bypass any
circuit protection in wiring up a 240 volt heater. What I was trying to
suggest was that if some "novice" were to "LITERALLY" use the heater as
originally intended (a commercial application/commercial strength heater),
they would HAVE to wire it to 240 volts. As we all certainly know, in order
to get the full 240 volts, you have to wire a device differently than normal
110. Not many 220/240 devices are normally wired as 220/240 using a normal
plug outlet. They use a special connector. That, as I was trying to point
out, is best left to a professional electrician. And, using the heater as a
240 volt heater, would generate a SIGNIFICANT amount of heat, and COULD
cause bodily harm to an unsuspecting user. Hence, my advice to avoid using
such a high voltage heater if possible. Perhaps I will be more detailed (go
ahead, ask me what time it is... I have a wonderful set of plans for a
watch...) in my postings in the future. My apologies for those that mis read
my explanation. BTW, I *AM* a heck of an authority on stainless steel
tubing, but not about the heaters that are made from it.
OD
Orville Deutchman
Brewer of Down Under Ale!
Hobby Brewing at its Finest!
I'm relaxing, and having a homebrew!
orion@mdc.net
------------------------------
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter@web.camasnet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:45:50 -0700
Subject: Octoberfest
For the festbier experts out there: I am hoping you will advise me about
improving my Octoberfest.
As many have accurately pointed out in past postings, most homebrewed
Octoberfest styles have too much of a caramel, as opposed to roast malt,
flavor...mine included. Here is the grist bill for my next attempt:
Pils 50%
Munich 35%
DWC Crystal (CaraPils <5%> and CaraVienna <2%>) 7%
DWC Aromatic 5%
DWC Biscuit 5%
This makes for a starting gravity of about 1.056. Do you think this will
have the correct amount of malt/roast malt flavor or is there still too
much crystal?
As an aside....I find that most published recipes rely heavily on crystal
malt - including the Fix and Fix "Marzen, Octoberfest, Vienna" Classic
Style Series. They hardly mention the roasty/toasty flavor that identifies
the Octoberfest style! No wonder some of us homebrewers have it wrong!
Dan Ritter
ritter@camasnet.com
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery
Grangeville, Idaho
------------------------------
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1@columbia.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 96 11:47:11 EDT
Subject: Sorghum
Russell Mast <rmast@fnbc.com> writes:
> I know a fellow in Canada (originally from Benin, I think) who reguarly
> brews sorghum beer and is working hard at duplicating the traditional taste
> using what he has up there. So, well, we can probably find some ourselves
> with a bit of effort.
My recollection is that typical East/South-East African sorghum beer is
brewed with Schizosaccharomyces pombe, not S. cerevisiae. Is this the beer
we're talking about?
I made a couple of years ago one attempt at S. pombe brewing (with barley
malt extract) with a "near-wild-type" lab strain, with very unpleasant
results: massive amounts of sulfur that never went away. Then the yeast
died on me before I could even freeze it, and I could not revive any from
the bottles.
Pierre
------------------------------
From: Christ Lutheran School <christ@egyptian.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:52:35 -0500
Subject: Yeast Starters
Aside from starting fermentation more quickly, what are the advantages of
making a starter with Wyeast? Also what is a good all purpose ratio of water
to DME for making a five gallon batch? Any help would be greatly appreciated
as I've read and heard so many different answers. Tim Frahm.
------------------------------
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 01 Sep 96 11:51:06 EDT
Subject: IM, ALL CAPS, Secondary
Brewsters:
On the discussion of yeast clinging to one side of the bottle actually being
moss, etc. If it was a stout, maybe it was Irish Moss.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
I received a message from a fellow HBDer, Don, showing a message to Shawn in
which I forwarded one of my earlier submissions to HBD. I made comments to
Shawn
in all Capital letters. HBDer was kind enough to send me a private note asking
me to not be critical of Shawn.
Believe me, I wasn't, as you will see below. I am not as sensitive as others to
the idea that all capital letters is a rude form of communication equivalent to
shouting. I grew up in the days when all teletype communication (being a long
time ham radio operator as well as an avid brewer) was *only* capitals and
really don't feel the offensiveness like others apparently do. Sorry about
that.
Below is my reply to Don as well as a test of a method Shawn and I are trying
out:
"Don,
I think Shawn is doing an excellent job and tell him so publically and
privately. We have been trying to work out my problem with this D*** Compuserv
e-mailer that won't transfer a file without mangling it.
I forwarded an earlier message to Shawn and used all Capital letters to
distinguish my inserted message from the one being forwarded. It definitely is
*NOT* shouting. I see I sent it to the wrong address, but I intended it to be a
direct message to Shawn and not to the HBD.
Thanks for your note on this. I will try to correct any mis-impression that
arose from my incorrect address and using all Caps.
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley."
If this works OK, I still need a method to split a submission that has BOUNCED.
Shawn and I are working on one.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
BTW in the above referenced epistle a mangled message was sent the first time
to
the HBD, despite my best efforts. The essence of the comment was that it is
necessary to clean, peel and boil fresh pumpkin for an hour or so before
pureeing it for inclusion in beer or pies. So, using fresh pumpkin has very
little to recommend it since prepared pumpkin is so readily available in cans.
Also, rice hulls are really a necessity in sparging this concoction. The only
advantage I could see to fresh pumpkin might be if it were left unpeeled,
cooked
partially to where a fork will pierce it but the pumpkin is not deteriorated to
a mush. Try 5 - 10 min per pound in the microwave dry, covered, without added
water, and added to the wort in small pieces, rather than as a puree. This is
only a conjecture, but it may help in the sparging and still may allow one to
get the pumpkin taste without limiting the amount of pumpkin to that which will
sparge easily. Use a serrated edged knife when cutting the pumpkin up - it is
much safer.
And, yes, to all those doubters out there, girlfriend Bonnie ( what *was* her
surname?) really did make a pie for me from a jack-o-lantern pumpkin I gave
her.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Brewbie asks about timing the tranfer to the secondary fermenter. I wait until
the violent fermentation in the primary has subsided, but while there is still
some fermentation visible as small bubbles on the surface. This is usually
about a week after pitching, but depends on the OG of the wort, the yeast and
temperature. Not such a big problem with closed fermetations as with open
fermentations in which the possibility of infection increases as the ferment
dies down.
Don't delay too long, as decay of the proteinaceous cold break and yeast
autolysis can be a problem with some yeast. In winemaking most yeasts are Sacc.
Cervesiae just like in beermaking. Montrachet yeast must have minimal contact
with the wine after fermentation, since autolysis sets in quickly and mercaptan
productions are rampant , producing a "sulfury" smell to the point of
undrinkability without treatment. Champagne yeasts, like Prisse de Mousse, on
the other hand spend a year in contact with the wine to give it that background
flavor of desired bready "yeastiness" , with no mercaptans, in Methode
Champenoise. So, it is very yeast variant dependent as well as other
environmental parameters. Others may wish to comment on their experience with
autolysis with beer yeast, since I always transfer within a week or so and
don't
have a problem. I have never had a problem with natural carbonation giving an
off-flavor either. I wonder if the "breadiness" brewers of
Vienna/Marzen/Octoberfest talk about is due more to the yeast than to the malts
- - comments?
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
------------------------------
From: The Holders <zymie@sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 11:58:37 -0700
Subject: Acronymn overload
TIA for putting up with this post, and BTW, I'm prepared for all flames.
FWIW, I think its great to discuss using NG or LPG on your CRES pot to
brew an IPA, even if the the process came from an HBD on CDROM. The
valuable knowledge of FAN and HSA cannot be measured in AAU's or IBU's.
I think posts should discuss what could happen if they FTIM. FYI, I brew
in HDPE, adn sometimes carbonate in PET. IMHO, I think it would be a
service to newbies and oldbies alike to sometimes post IPE (in plain
English) and forget all the acronyms. How many keystrokes do you really
save? YMMV of course.
Wayne Holder
Ocean Avenue Brewery
Long Beach CA.
copyright 1996 Wotzit inc.
Remember: steal from me, and you steal twice.
------------------------------
From: "Robert L. Schroeder" <sparky40@loop.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:13:37 -0700
Subject: Electrical safety 101
One more thing about the heating elements at the risk of beating it
to death.It sounds like the suggestion was to run an element rated at 240
volts @ 120 volts. This is not always a good idea without some modification
to the element. Amps and Volts are inversly proportional. The higher the
volts ( given a constant resistence) the lower the amps. In this instance,
the lower the volts(120 down from 240) the Higher the amps, and amperage is
what fries things.
If you run an element rated for 240 at 120, watch your figures,
watch your hardware(wires,plugs etc.) and if you see smoke RUN.
Brew on dudes
Robert L. Schroeder
------------------------------
From: rq@lysator.liu.se
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 23:30:19 +0000
Subject: [none]
Hi,
as I read HBD #2169, I came across John Braue's post about forced sparging. I
read about forced sparging in Hembryggaren (The homebrewer, the swedish
homebrewer association's magazine).
The brewers who are using this tecnique brew a large quanitity of pilsener once
a
year. I think the recipe was in the article, and it looked like an ordinary
all-grain pilsner recipe.
They mash as usual, and then "sparge" by putting the mash in a cider press,
squezing the last drop of liquid of of the mash. Yes, a cider press, intened
for
squezing the juice out of apples. From what I remeber the whole brewing process
was the usual one, except for the "sparging".
I haven't tasted the beer myself, but people who have say it's excellent.
If you want more info about this, I could dig out the magazine and make a
summary. (I guess you people don't speak Swedish).
Anyone ever heard of a similar tecnique? I'd love to hear about it.
Happy brewing.
Erik Roennqvist, Linkoeping university, Sweden
rq@lysator.liu.se (preferred) y95eriro@isy.liu.se y95eriro@cyd.liu.se
------------------------------
From: rq@lysator.liu.se
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 96 23:30:49 +0000
Subject: Forced sparging
Hi,
as I read HBD #2169, I came across John Braue's post about forced sparging. I
read about forced sparging in Hembryggaren (The homebrewer, the swedish
homebrewer association's magazine).
The brewers who are using this tecnique brew a large quanitity of pilsener once
a
year. I think the recipe was in the article, and it looked like an ordinary
all-grain pilsner recipe.
They mash as usual, and then "sparge" by putting the mash in a cider press,
squezing the last drop of liquid of of the mash. Yes, a cider press, intened
for
squezing the juice out of apples. From what I remeber the whole brewing process
was the usual one, except for the "sparging".
I haven't tasted the beer myself, but people who have say it's excellent.
If you want more info about this, I could dig out the magazine and make a
summary. (I guess you people don't speak Swedish).
Anyone ever heard of a similar tecnique? I'd love to hear about it.
Happy brewing.
Erik Roennqvist, Linkoeping university, Sweden
rq@lysator.liu.se (preferred) y95eriro@isy.liu.se y95eriro@cyd.liu.se
------------------------------
From: Alex Santic <alex@salley.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:39:14 -0400
Subject: Ale secondary fermentation/conditioning
In my recent experiences with Wyeast 1056, I'm finding that fermentation =
is steady for 4 or 5 days, then drops off very rapidly. Based on =
hydrometer readings and tastings, I would say that the beer is almost =
fully attenuated at that time.
As a result, there is typically very little activity in my secondary =
fermenter, and probably not enough CO2 production/escape to properly =
flush air from the head space. I'm concerned about oxidation as well as =
more guesswork in determining priming rates.
Now that I have 5 liter minikegs, I'm thinking about racking directly =
from the primary to the kegs once fermentation seems to have completed. =
At this point I would add priming sugar, perhaps finings, and put a =
small hop bag in each minikeg for aroma.
Any help in determining a successful procedure would be appreciated. The =
considerations that are complicating matters in my mind are as follows:
1) Since the beer probably won't be extremely clear at priming/kegging =
time, I'm wondering if there will be too much yeast sediment in the =
minikegs. Perhaps bad for flavor as well as dispensing.
2) I'm considering whether or not to add gelatin at priming/kegging time =
as a fining agent.
3) I'm considering racking to the secondary for a few days and using =
Polyclar before priming and kegging. This would remove haze agents as =
well as allowing more time for the yeast to settle out before =
priming/kegging.
Any advice to help me settle on a worry-free procedure?
- --
Alex Santic - alex@salley.com
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107
http://www.salley.com
------------------------------
From: SHANE SAYLOR <SHANE@cais.cais.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 18:00:35 -0400
Subject: Recipe Books
Hello! I've been getting the digest for about a week now & love it! I
have a homebrew kit I got for my birthday a while back & have bought
some books that explains HOW to make the beer & all. But, I have a
question : IS there any books with JUST recipes???????? Feel free to
post here or privately Email me. Thanx!
- --
Shane Saylor, Eccentric Bard
------------------------------
From: SRAILMAN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:15:20 -0400
Subject: Apple Cider Beer
Does anyone know a good Apple Cider Beer Recipe. I have access to fresh
pressed apple cider and want to use it in a beer recipe. Can someone give me
an idea of the proportions of cider to use. I am also interested in the
combination of different apples to use in a fermented drink (is sweet or tart
better?). If someone has experience with cider or with a cider-beer please
e-mail me or post suggestions on homebrew digest so all can gain from your
knowledge. Thx!
------------------------------
From: Dave <dave001@future.dreamscape.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 00:02:59 -0400
Subject: ALL GRAIN BREW, VIA STEAM JACKETED KETTLE EQUIPMENT
I ACCESS TO LARGE STEAM KETTLES, EFFICIECY IS GOOD BUT TEMPS TEND TO RUN
HIGH QUICKLY AND THE ORDER OF BUSINESS DICTATES STRICT WATCH OVER
TEMPS..
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THE SAME .
I LOVE THE WEB FORMAT!!.
------------------------------
From: emccormi <emccormi@knox.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:39:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Food dehydrators for hops
Nathan asked about food dehydrators for hops.
While I have no experience with drying hops in a dehydrator, we
have dried a number of other products.
American Harvest makes a nice dehydrator. It features a
thermostat and forces air through the trays from the center. It is
reasonably priced, available at Walmart and other suppliers, can handle
up to 12 trays (round, 14" or so). Sells for around $49.99 and additional
trays around $20 per pair.
We are quite happy with the thing. Is great for jerky. It would
probably be ideal for hops as it does have a thermostat on it. As it can
be turned to other uses as well, its easier to float past the spouse as a
"necessity".
I have no affiliation with AH beyond liking their dehydrator.
BTW, there are others in that price range with no thermostat. You
REALLY need a thermostat to do any dehydrating even half-right.
Especially if you'ld like to do a jerky.
------------------------------
From: emccormi <emccormi@knox.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:43:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bleach
I've used bleach for everything with no problems. I use a bottle
rinser to clear the carboys with hot water before adding anything to
them. It works quite well as there is no need to retain large amounts of
water in the carboy while rinsing. The idea is to lose the bleach. This
is best done by rinsing and losing the rinse water quickly.
I have yet to notice any contamination from bleach.
------------------------------
From: emccormi <emccormi@knox.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:48:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Boiling over
Someone suggested the the fastest way to control a boil-over in
wort was to throw a handful of leaf hops into the wort. I have used this
technique and it works quite well. As I keep several ounces of cascade
leaf around, it is the easiest for me to use. I have not the slighest
idea WHY it works, but it does.
John has stated skimming the scum from the surface of the wort as
it starts the boil will work as well. Don't know, haven't tried it. But I
will.
------------------------------
From: emccormi <emccormi@knox.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 01:00:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Late harvest hops
You stated your hops have produced no flowere so far.
Some plants like hard conditions and thrive more on little water
and nutrient than they do with copious water and all the nutrients thay
could ever want. Hops could be one of them.
If the buggers won't flower, stop watering them and feeding them.
They will assume times are getting tough and do their best to produce
seed (hop flowers).
Obviously, plants probably don't "think" for the most part. They
respond to conditions only. I've been wrong before, but if they aren't
producing under current conditions, change the conditions.
Again, I don't know hops and have no reference here on their
culture, so I COULD be WRONG. From what I've read, they seem quite hardy
so you may have to work like a demon to do anything to kill them anyway.
------------------------------
From: m.bryson2@genie.com
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 02:16:00 GMT
Subject: strange ginger taste...
I know that this isn't the cider digest, but here goes:
I fermented 5 gallons of fressh cider and added about 4 ounces of fresh
ginger at about 1 month. Unfortunately, I then left the cider alone for
about 3 months. Now, 3 weeks after bottling, the ginger taste is not only
overpowering, it leaves a strange aftertaste. There is no vinegar smell or
other noticeable problems. I am asking the collective wisdom of the HBD
about whether ginger mellows out, how long it takes, and whether a peculiar
taste is usually associated with letting fresh ginger sit for a long time.
Any advice would be appreciated. If it's just a matter of time for the
flavor to change, I can wait.
TIA,
Matthew W. Bryson
------------------------------
From: PVanslyke@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:13:37 -0400
Subject: Whole hop amounts
Hi all
Without considering the alpha acid content (these whole hops are wild and I
have no idea what kind they may be) what might be a general rule for usage of
whole hops vs. pellets vs. plugs.
I plan on making two batches of pale ale, changing only the kind of hops
used.
Is there a way to identify the strain of hops I have found?
TIA
Paul >>>Brewing and relaxing in Deposit, NY
------------------------------
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:26:40 -0500
Subject: Volume,Greece,Water,Cleaning Draft Tower
I just got back from 10 days overseas and was faced with the prodigious
task of trying to catch up on HBD. Wow! We have gotten really verbose. My
request to questioners would be "Please look in the archives before posting
a question" and to answerers "If yoy have seen it discussed in the last
couple of months, respond by e-mail". These are requests/suggestions and
are made with full understanding that others have different views on how
HBD should do what it is supposed to do and what it is that it is supposed
to do. I just can't keep up anymore!
With that off my chest: Bob Bessette asked about Greek beer. By and large,
Amstel is it in restaurants. There is another relatively commonly (but not
so commonly as Amstel) available made by Binding (of Frankfurt but actually
brewed in Thessaloniki) but I can't remember it's name. One occasionally
comes across Pilsner Urquel. In the super markets there is a wider variety.
Noteworthy among the available beers is Budvar.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
John Girard asked about specification of water properties as part of a
recipe. This is, in fact, sometimes done but not often enough. In some
cases the style of the beer dictates what the water should be. Noteworthy
examples at opposite ends of the spectrum are Pilsners and Burton ales. The
monographs in the Brewers Publications series usually discuss the water in
some detail.
Data on the water compositions of many of the famous brewing cities were
posted about 18 months ago by Dave Draper and they have been archived in
several places. I published formulations for these waters about a year ago
and these formulations have also been archived. Ken Schwarz has developed
PC software which allows a brewer to calculate salt additions for desired
ion profiles and it is a relatively simple matter to make up a spreadsheet
program to do the same thing if you are a Mac user.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bill Rust asked about cleaning a draft tower. There are a couple of
products made for just this purpose. One is called BLC (Beer Line Cleaner).
They are generally caustics. Their use requires a "pot" which is, in its
simplest form, a modest sized polyethylene jug with a hand air pump
attached to the screw-on lid. The pump pressurizes the jug forcing hot
water to which a couple of ounces of the liquid cleaner have been added up
through a hose which attaches to the tower in place of the faucet. Hot
cleaner is thus forced through the lines. The cleaner is followed by lots
of cool water.
The faucet itself is easily disassembled and the parts can be dropped into
the hot cleaning solution after it has been run through the system.
Brushing out of the interior and a little poking with a stiff wire may be
necessary to get all the gummy crud out of the various passageways within
the faucet. Again, rinse with lots of cool water. At reassembly "probe
grease" should be applied to the sliding mechanism within the faucet.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Kris Kauper asked what "water crystals" are. As I didn't know I dissolved
100 mg of Crosby and Baker water crystals in one liter of ion free water
and analyzed it. Here is what I found:
Alkalinity: 3 ppm as CaCO3
Calcium: 51 ppm as CaCO3
Magnesium: 14 ppm as CaCO3
Chloride: 0.6 ppm
Sulfate 67 ppm
Potassium 0.3 ppm
Sodium 0.5 ppm
Thus it is pretty clear that this stuff is mostly gypsum and Epsom salts
with traces of carbonate, potassium and sodium.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Bill Giffin asked why it is important to duplicate the water type for a
beer being brewed. In my opinion it is not unless your goal is
authenticity. As an example of this I cite a pair of Burton ales I brewed
for comparison in a class I was doing on water for the local brew club. One
was done with water which resembled Burton's quite closely and the other
with my much softer well water. The Burton-water result was more authentic
but the well water beer was a better beer scoring in the high 30's in a
contest. I don't think the Burton brewers use untreated Burton water any
more but I'm just guessing about that because the commercial examples are
less crunchy/salty and have less hops harshness than my authentic brew.
I believe a reasonable approach is to tailor the water to give reasonable
mash pH and then adjust according to your personal taste with respect to
the "stylistic" ions i.e. more or less chloride for fullness/sweetness,
more or less hops for dryness. An exception to this would be Bohemian Pils
which requires very soft water.
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:26:52 -0500
Subject: RO Water/Phosphoric Acid/Buffering Capacity
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Kurt Schilling asked whether RO water can pick up metal. It certainly can!
It is extremely aggressive to the point where it is plumbed in non metallic
pipe for just this reason. Properly plumbed it should not, obviously, pick
up metallic flavors. Obviously, if stored, it should be stored in
non-metallic containers. Brief contact with metal fittings should not
present a problem.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Al asked if phosporic acid pulls calcium out of water. You are probably
thinking of the reaction of calcium with malt phosphate salts e.g.
3Ca(++) + 2HPO4(--) <--> Ca3(PO4)2 + 2H+
which is responsible for the lowering of the pH of the mash. It doesn't
matter where the phosphate comes from. If calcium is present it can combine
with the phosphate ions from added acid as well as from the salts to form
the precipitate. Whether precipitation occurs or not depends on the sign of
the saturation index, SI = pH - pHs with pHs being the saturation pH. If SI
is negative (pH less than pHs) precipitation will not occur. The saturation
pH is approximately (dilute solution) pHs = pK3 - pKs + p[Ca++] + p[HPO4--]
where pK3 is the third dissociation constant of phosporic acid (12), pKs is
- -log(solubility product) with a value of about 32.5, p[Ca++] is
- -log(concentration of calcium) and similarly for the monohydrogen phosphate
ion. For a given amount of calcium let us add enough acid to increase the
HPO4- concentration by a factor of 10. This decreases pHs by one. The
increased HPO4-- comes from H3PO4 --> 2H+ + HPO4- that is, twice as much
sydrogen ion enters the solution as H3PO4 so that the pH drops by 1.3.
Thus, if a solution was not saturated before the addition of acid, it will
not be saturated afterwards even though additional HPO4 has been supplied.
Thus the answer is "no". Addition of phosphoric acid should not strip out
calcium any more than addtion of carbonic acid to a solution of sodium
bicarbonate should cause precipitation of calcium carbonate. I do seem to
remember saying just the opposite in one of the original water formulation
posts last year. I guess I'm a little wiser in these matters now (or
totally wrong here).
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Al also had a question as to what determines the buffering capacity of a
given water. Buffering capacity is the resistance of a solution to pH
change and can be defined as the ratio of the number of equivalents of acid
(or base) required to effect an incremental change in pH divided by the
change in pH. For the mathematically inclined, the first derivative of
equivalents with respect to pH or the slope of the titration curve (acid
added vs pH). Obviously, this is directly proportional to the amount of a
salt i.e. it should be clear that twice as much acid will be required to
change the pH by a given amount in a solution which contains two units of a
salt as in a solution which contains one. The other factor is the
dissociation constant(s) of the acid and base which make up the salt. In
water, the acid is carbonic acid and the base is sodium hydroxide, calcium
hydroxide, potassium hydroxide or magnesium hydroxide. These bases are all
"strong" bases which means that their dissociation constants are large and
their pKb's are small. Carbonic acid is, conversely, a weak acid with a
small dissociation constant and large pKa's of 6.37 for the first hydrogen
and 10.25 for the second. Buffering capacity, given that the concentration
of the salt is fixed, depends on the relationship between the pK and the pH
of the solution and is maximum where pH = pK. Thus a solution of a
carbonate or bicarbonate has maximum buffering capactiy at 6.37 and 10.25
with the first number being within the range of pH's found in brewing water
and mash. There is a general rule of thumb that if one is trying to design
a buffer for a particular pH he should use an acid (or base) whose pK is
within one pH unit of the desired pH.
In brewing water bicarbonate ion is the principal determinant of the
buffering capacity both because it is the cation of greatest concentration
(usually) and because its first pK is close to the pH's normally
encountered. The pK's of the cation bases (14 - pKb) are far away from the
pH of the water and thus have little effect on the buffer system. Sulfate,
where present, has a secondary effect because the second pK of sulfuric
acid is 1.92 which is only a couple of pH units away from mah pH of 5.2 -
5.4. Also phosphoric acid has pKs of 2.12 and 7.21. The first dissociation
has a secondary effect at mash pH and the second tends to buffer near
neutral pH (the standard pH 7 buffer used in calibrating pH meters is
usually a mixture of monohydrogen and dihydrogen phosphates of akali
metals).
Finally, let's note that alkalinity, which is the number of
milliequivalents of acid which are required to bring a water sample to a
specified pH (4.3) can be though of as a buffering capacity measurement.
The major problem with thinking of it in this way is that the starting pH
is not constant i.e. it is whatever the pH of the water is as given to us.
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
From: Michel Vandenplas <mvdp@maties.sun.ac.za>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 96 14:39 +0200
Subject: Sorghum Challenge-The winners are..
Thanks to everyone who applied for the job of sorghum brew testers. Sorry to
all the folk that I couldn't accommodate. I nearly thought I'd go into the
sorghum malt export business :-)
Okay, our 3 brewers (really 4) will be:
Michael Beck (Germany)
Matt Grady (USA)
Michael Gerholdt (USA)
Russell, (I've got it right this time :-), Mast will possibly also be brewing
a batch if he can sort out his sorghum supply.
I'll buy the malt today and post it tomorrow. It should take about 2-3 weeks
to reach the our brave brewers.
In the meantime lets see some recipe suggestions. I'm really no expert on the
matter, so I'll watch from behind my keyboard while the professionals get on
with it.
Regards,
Michel Vandenplas
------------------------------
From: ajdel@interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:47:12 -0500
Subject: Selzer/Reinheitsgebot
Greg King suggested dissolving chalk in selzer. There is one caveat and
that is that selzer water often contains other minerals in fair amount. Low
sodium products are available in Yuppie stores. One can, of course, make
his own "selzer" by putting cold water in a Cornelius keg and pressurizing.
I get chalk to dissolve by bubbling CO2 through the vessel in which the
water is being prepared and, after the chalk is completely dissolved,
aerating until the desired pH is reached.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Mark Bayer asked for hard evidence that the Reinheitsgebot limited brewers
to the use of barley. The words of the Herzog himself are (modernized)
"..zu keinen Bier mehr stuecke als allein Gersten, Hopfen und Wasser
verwendent und gebraucht werden sollen." Gersten is barley. The most recent
governing document was the Biersteuergesetz which is lots more flexible
than the original Reinheitsgebot, esptecially with respect to top fermented
beers.
A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel@interramp.com
------------------------------
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 08:13:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: AHA forms
Does anyone have the AHA competition forms in PC format?
Word or whatever? Let me know.
Thanks.
- Bryan
grosbl@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
Nashville, TN
------------------------------
End of Homebrew Digest #2170
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